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On April 18 2011 14:52 drgonzhere wrote:
First of all let me say that I love this build, but I feel that after I throw down my 4 gases it becomes difficult to balance minerals and gas, meaning i feel that I am too gas heavy. Should I get infestors sooner, or is there a unit composition that would better alleviate this?
You shouldn't have excess gas if ur getting Both mellle upgrades + ovie speed and drop + burrow + banelings speed + fungal growth + Making banes + making infestors lol you just gotta spend ur stuff man stay on top ur injects and power so ling/infestor till ur on 3 base then get ultras
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god i love this build!!!!
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I've been hammering this build but I can't seem to get it to be strong. after the gas is up i'm sorted, but I never really manage to get that far without getting cheesed, rushed and just generally all-in raped. I think it's extremely weak to any early play, after the gas it's great but I can't even make it that far 90% of the time.
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I've been looking for an answer to the question "why is this called the ice fisher build" and haven't found one; sorry if this is redundant.
Is it because zerg queens look like they are using long fishing poles when they attack ground?
Or is it because the minerals are "ice" and that's all you're fishing?
Just wondering. Does anyone know?
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On April 18 2011 15:41 Nicholai wrote:
I've been looking for an answer to the question "why is this called the ice fisher build" and haven't found one; sorry if this is redundant.
Is it because zerg queens look like they are using long fishing poles when they attack ground?
Or is it because the minerals are "ice" and that's all you're fishing?
Just wondering. Does anyone know?
Because you only mine minerals for a very long time, who look like ice blocks. My guess.
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So i have played using Spanishiwa's style. But what i have come to realize that going for 14 gas 14 pool and then taking guys off gas (getting speed) and then playing like normal seems to be a lot better you will have a later expo and less income in the beggining but the speed lets you have map control and dosent' directly give off that ur gonna be turling on 2 base (spanishiwa style) plus with speed you have the ability to put on pressure and poke and prod and do damage and go all-in if he gets to greedy. Just a suggestion i have been having more success with speed openning then delaying gas and still going same unit comp -(300 masters atm)
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I have a few questions. I've been playing around with this for quite a bit (only gold league, mind you). But I often seems to lose out on early protoss pressure - holding off the first 2-3 stalkers with a zealot or two is rarely a problem - but when they just keep coming the transfusion run out and zerglings mean nothing to zealots - Is there anything I've missed in this build?
I use 3 spore crawlers.
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On April 18 2011 21:53 Nivyan wrote:
I have a few questions. I've been playing around with this for quite a bit (only gold league, mind you). But I often seems to lose out on early protoss pressure - holding off the first 2-3 stalkers with a zealot or two is rarely a problem - but when they just keep coming the transfusion run out and zerglings mean nothing to zealots - Is there anything I've missed in this build?
I use 3 spore crawlers.
Well the first problem is the spore crawlers  I'm assuming it was a typo and you actually meant spine crawlers.
You aren't using your zerlings on the zealots are you? use the spines and queens for the zealots and the zerglings for the stalkers..
Otherwise your just wasting units.. the zealots are mainly there to soak up damage and as there dirt cheap (compared to the expensiveness (gas) of stalkers/sentries in early game) there not the real target.
Either allocate your zerglings to a more efficient target or get more spines. Those two things should sort the problem out.
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On April 18 2011 22:32 B34ST wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 21:53 Nivyan wrote:
I have a few questions. I've been playing around with this for quite a bit (only gold league, mind you). But I often seems to lose out on early protoss pressure - holding off the first 2-3 stalkers with a zealot or two is rarely a problem - but when they just keep coming the transfusion run out and zerglings mean nothing to zealots - Is there anything I've missed in this build?
I use 3 spore crawlers. Well the first problem is the spore crawlers I'm assuming it was a typo and you actually meant spine crawlers. You aren't using your zerlings on the zealots are you? use the spines and queens for the zealots and the zerglings for the stalkers.. Otherwise your just wasting units.. the zealots are mainly there to soak up damage and as there dirt cheap (compared to the expensiveness (gas) of stalkers/sentries in early game) there not the real target. Either allocate your zerglings to a more efficient target or get more spines. Those two things should sort the problem out.
More spinecrawlers and more queens. Get another round of queens (or even just 1 if it's shortly before you want to get your lair) and get all your queens together. 5 Queens with 2-4 spinecrawlers can defend against a lot of stuff. You will skip some injects on your main, but you can still inject on your natural and split production between lings and drones at around 60% or the larva as lings, 40% drones, depending on how much pressure he does (for 4gate stop drone production completely until you hold of the pressure, you should be ahead anyways).
I usually keep producing queens on the natural until lair is done and i have to use it for tech. You can use those queens for creep spread, destroying rocks to the third, air defense, transfuses and eventually help against colossi. Queens have _a lot_ of hitpoints per cost and are neither light nor armored, making them the most resilient unit in game, i think. They protect you from 50% of the cheeses. For the other 50% they at least help to delay the cheese until you are safe (for example transfusing hatches/sporecrawlers against a DTs or banshees)
Also, use your lings to attack him from behind, stalkers are weak vs lings.
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My friend uses this build a lot on me xD
But I crush him now with this solid tank timing push that I've come up with, and it basically DESTROYS him. How would he stop that?
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i agree the main problem is the third expo being a little late. but i think it is only a problem depending on what the other does.
for example, if he does a 3gate sentry expand, then his probe count is so low compared to yours that his 3rd doesn't matter so much, he is far from saturated and you've had 2 saturated bases for a while, and now you are pumping roaches like crazy, and researching +1 +1 burrow and speed while breaking the rocks to take your third (and fourth depending on map and what the opponent is doing).
i don't think he can have 3 bases, mobile detection and enough army to stop your push(or avoiding you getting another 2 bases), at least not to a point you could say he has "blind countered" your build. If he has 3 bases you can now CHOOSE which one to attack and thus any cannons are "wasted" when attacking the other base.
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i wonder why this build causes so much controversy.
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On April 18 2011 23:09 ElPeque.fogata wrote:
i wonder why this build causes so much controversy.
Yesterday Spanishiwa was streaming at the same time as NASL- and was beating people with 3 corruptors, 2 infestors and 4 brood lords, and a whole hell of a lot of queens.
It was basically a transfused corruptor vs repaired vikings battle. Even Tyler and Day9 had a hard time taking the game seriously, but god damn was it effective.
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On April 18 2011 23:04 Nemasyst.598 wrote:
My friend uses this build a lot on me xD
But I crush him now with this solid tank timing push that I've come up with, and it basically DESTROYS him. How would he stop that?
Show replays and we might be able to tell.
My guess: More Queens and more lings to flank from behind.
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On April 18 2011 23:04 Nemasyst.598 wrote:
My friend uses this build a lot on me xD
But I crush him now with this solid tank timing push that I've come up with, and it basically DESTROYS him. How would he stop that?
well queens + lings do decent against tank marine pushes, as queens just tank the tank shots and lings run in after that
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I am a protoss player, and I've faced this build now 20-30 times, and wow it's horrible.
Firstly I'll start off with the obvious, pretty much even if you see a 14 gas you'll be checking if a drone is leaving his base, if it is, you can block his expo, place a pylon, whatever. Not being able to place your expo is real bad because your gas hasn't even been started yet, and if decide to go place a hatch at a third it's practically a free win against 4 gate.
But let's take the scenario of you get the 16 hatch off. Once I see a 15-16 hatch and no gas on the way, get zealot out right as cybercore finishes and chrono stalkers constantly (3 stalkers). My first zealot + stalker arrive when your first spine crawler is 2/3 done on Meta cross spawns. Ignore the queen, target down the spine crawler and... And lings do so little because my stalkers can kite because your speed is endlessly delayed. I follow up with a 4 gate off one gas, and you're finished.
I have lost twice against this build with my aggresion style, and it was just a midgame error after we came off very even after the 4 gate. Imo 16 hatch doesn't work at all because the time to get the spine crawler is so narrow, and that's why 15 hatch is a lot more viable. However I do the 12 gate 17 core where my probe production is delayed by about 1-2 seconds when you pair up probes and on close spawns you can do this againsts a standard 15 hatch 14 gas 14 pool.
I would like to see an actual pro doing this as the timings are a little too slow on everything to stand up against a solidly executed protoss agressive build. If anyone wants any replays, I can post some, as well, because the ones in the replays are delayed by 10 seconds are so, and the micro in the 4 gate one wasn't the most amazing either by the toss.
Saying that, I don't want to take away anything from you for creating such a staple build in the ZvX arsenal.
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I think even Spanishiwa does 13 hatch against protoss to avoid having it blocked, which also means the spines will be up earlier.
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Tag for future reference. Thanks.
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13 hatch?.
is econ damaged or is it compensated by having more larva early?
when you 13 hatch, at what time do you usually pool?
thank you.
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Spanishiwa, you have a 62% win rate. I'm just curious, have you seen opponents find a good counter for the build? The way you point the build out, it seems nigh unbeatable. I don' believe you lose every 3rd game to cheese, so give us a good repeating strategy you've seen opponents use.
I also noticed there isn't any replays of vs mass roach.
That's true. I wonder how the build goes up against someone who carefully times his push before/right after Spanishiwa gets his gas up, as roaches are super powerful versus slow lings and spine crawlers, even with transfuse. Anyone know the most efficient build to get the biggest amount of roaches at this time?
last but not least a strategy and gameplan should also fit to your style of play; i personally handle zvp in a way where my approach is to destroy the protoss economy rather than getting base after base because i like being aggressive and creative strategies way more and using something you dont like often ends in performing it very poorly
I think it is also very scary if the protoss just waits for a maxed out army, utilizing some very slow push towards your base. Photon cannons will render any Nydus activity useless, and a 200/200 protoss ball is always to be feared. Besides, if a protoss scouts correctly, he will see broodlords coming, and a few void rays work beautiful against them.
On the good side Spanishiwa does teach a valuable lesson here: It is necessary to keep pressure on the Zerg.
Thing is, Spanishiwa has efficiently managed to counter good, early standard pushes such as 4 gate and 2 rax (not all in). Not everyone wants to all in, but it seems that to counter the build you must also go for crazy economy (Which only a zerg player can do), hope the zerg does a mistake that costs him a massive amount of his eco, or go for an all-in.
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EPT
