EPTOr has no one run into it?
Marauder/Hellion seems like it would be tough, too, but I could see it with lots of spines and transfuse.
[G] Spanishiwa's No Gas FE ZvX - Page 31
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ComTrav
United States1093 Posts
Or has no one run into it? Marauder/Hellion seems like it would be tough, too, but I could see it with lots of spines and transfuse. | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On April 17 2011 11:42 Nemireck wrote: That's also a fair and valid point. For ladder play, this build is probably really solid (I'm going to be practicing it myself to see how it feels). But when pros post their criticisms, they have no choice but to judge the build based on what they know ACTUALLY works at the top levels of play, and it's good that they can come into these threads and point out the general weaknesses for those players that DO aspire to be the best, and not just become good, solid, ladder players. I think i have even said in a post before that people in lower leagues (or even low-mid masters) will probably have more success with this build than the build they used before. For this i see two reasons: a) the build they used before was worse than this build; b) they lacked experience for the build they used before. The thing is, spanishiwa gives you an overall gameplan and buildorder and a buildorder that fits to that gameplan. Most people here have probably never had such a thing as a gameplan and a buildorder that goes above 15-20 supply (from coaching people i know that ;p). Now if you are able to execute the build order he has given you, you are already a better player than anyone else in your league, just because the other people arent able to execute their buildorder and have no gameplan. The reason why i am critizing this build all the time is, that once you rise in the leagues at some point, this build order will give you some trouble. Imagine you have made it to the grandmaster league. Then you get your next laddermatch and its our friendly italian cloud. lets assume he just builds 1 rax at the bottom of the ramp on xel naga caverns. you have to be instantly concerned that a second baracks was proxied somewhere. so you better make like 2 crawlers at your natural minimum. turns out he is just going 1 rax CC and then immidiately into blueflame with just 1 rax. no bunkers (typical cloud :D). he then proceeds to poke around a little with hellions (killing creeptumors that are planted out of range of the crawlers) while going for double ebay and siegetank tech and getting a relatively quick third commandcenter. i dont want to go too much into detail as cloud has an important match against zerg coming up, but i can tell you that you're in quite some trouble if you have zergling speed finished as late as 80-90 supply. Especially in lower leagues, people play so many allins, and allins is what this build is great against (better than the way i play, i will freely admit!). the thing is just, that when you play against a greedy fuck like cloud (sorry i have to take you as an example again cloud :D), you cannot only be worried about all the random allins, but also about what you are going to do when your opponent sees that you get super late gas and stationary defense and just goes super super greedy. In the lower leagues you dont have people who play like this, because of all the allins that are being played, but the higher you get, you will encounter people who play like this more often, or play like this as a reaction to scouting no gas + stationary defense. On April 17 2011 16:57 Ziggitz wrote: I won't debate your other points about the build itself since I can't actually play the game right now and I'll be posting much of what I think about Spanishiwa's style in a document I'm in the process of writing, but this paragraph needs to be addressed, because it's absolutely poisonous thinking. [...] I shortened your quote so it doesnt make my postsize explode. Anyway, I am not just saying "my intuition tells me that this is bad, so its bad" I have given logical reasons in my posts why i personally do not like this build (for my level of play). I have made very big changes to by build orders over the time. As i said before, there were times when i was also one of those persons who liked to build spine crawlers. My playstyle has evolved out of that, and in my opinion it has evolved to the better, especially since it allows me to mix in allins (which is very important in my opinion). If you dont want my opinion/intuition, feel free to ignore it. I absolutely dont care what build you use, i am here out of 2 reasons: i like to argue, and i want to help people. If you dont want my help, i dont care, but there seem to be plenty of others who are quite happy that i do post here. So my post got pretty long, what i basically tried to say is: If you like the build and dont care too much whether its still effective at the very top, just play it. But if you want to make it to the very top or at least play with the aim of making it there, it might be better to learn the builds that are being used by the best (nestea, losira etc.). Due to my rather aggressive tone of argueing, people sometimes think i am just all negative, because you quickly forget that i actually do not only write negative things in my posts. | ||
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lifecanwait
96 Posts
You shouldn't be too predictable. As far as I can see, a proper 4 gate executed by a good player could make some trouble as always (ff your ramp) etc., for that I prefer I much earlier roach warren | ||
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truthless
Sweden120 Posts
On April 17 2011 05:55 themell wrote: I hope you aren't serious. You only need one spore at nat and main. Queens will handle any air. Lings or queens will handle any dts. And a quick protoss third? I don't see how a fast third can survive if scouted. This build allows for fast transition into an aggressive build due to the heavy eco focus early on. And you only need an overseer when the dts are spotted or tech spotted. The spore will give enough vision, especially since zergs don't have a lot of buildings to build. 6 gate timing push could work, but I don't see how well that would work after a failed dt rush. Ugh, stop theorycrafting. There are already players in tournaments using this strategy nonstop. Even their opponents know the zerg is using it, but still can't stop it. Yes, you can go one gate expand into 6gate + council, but you're going to be far behind the zerg eco because you apply no pressure. A single DT can kill the spines at the front if you don't protect them with vision. A bit map dependant, since nats are at different locations from your ramp, but that's why I said 3. It all depends on how far from your minerals your spines are, since a voidray can easily outrange a spore that's placed on the other side of the hatchery. The timing push I implied would include the DTs (but as Archons), since the zergs army will be mostly zerglings at that point, they'll do really well. I've yet to see anyone execute this, and I haven't run into the build yet on ladder myself, so I can't do much more than theorycraft. Sorry. Oh, and the safe 3rd was implied as a double expand when the protoss typically takes his natural, under the protection of DTs. Since overseers won't be out until 8:30 or so at the earliest you have a good 2 minutes where your expansion can't really be threatened without the zerg giving up drones (to make enough lings to overwhelm) and some lings that'll have to die. Even if he kills the 3rd, just by making those lings instead of drones you've managed to apply enough pressure to cancel out his early economic lead. But, as I said, neither of those two strategies have really been tried properly, I feel. Correct me if wrong though. I'd love to see some replays with similar builds being used. | ||
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dmat
2 Posts
Lets see how Darkforce exploits weaknesses of this build  | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On April 17 2011 21:16 dmat wrote: Spanishiwa vs Darkforce GOGO. Lets see how Darkforce exploits weaknesses of this build The main match up DF thinks its not optimal for the highest level of play is ZvP. He happens to play zerg, and thus cannot play like a real grandmaster toss player because he lacks the knowledge of the great timings. In ZvZ it can be good, but its hard to get a third up around the same time as your opponent, as I have found out by experimenting with queens and spines in ZvZ myself. BUT.. having that said, I would totally watch a showmatch between darkforce and spanishwa. | ||
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Savci007
Hungary10 Posts
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
@Darkforce: appreciate your input on TL a lot (don't stop that !!). Also appreciate your attitute showing some respect to the requirements of an amateur build which targets on how to maximize the MMR having amateur level mechanics and multitasking :-). | ||
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Savci007
Hungary10 Posts
On April 17 2011 21:43 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:[...] it will change the metagame and enforce more scouting and somewhat reactionary play from non-zerg races. No more blind all in execution possible :-) I think a terran would react to seeing Spine Crawlers without offense quite easily, I don't think there is much more that they have to scout for. On a previous note, why is it a problem if a zerg doesn't have a game plan, only key times (such as when to expand, make a pool, create a lair, get upgrades, get a spire and whatnot)? I mean, my game plan won't count much when I am getting 4gated or similar, until the battle is over. | ||
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B34ST
United Kingdom150 Posts
On April 17 2011 18:39 ComTrav wrote: How would this hold a one-base marine/tank push? Or has no one run into it? Marauder/Hellion seems like it would be tough, too, but I could see it with lots of spines and transfuse. I actually played some one who went for a one base marine/tank push, he opened with 2 rax bunker pressure which I held of by pulling some drones and then transitioned into a tank marine push. It was stupidly easy, not even hard.. It looked daunting and I thought I was fucked but when I actually commited to kill it (he was sieged up) it got destroyed. It was on Xel Naga Caverns, I had bottom position he had sieged just bellow the gold rocks, 3 tanks I think, I sent a group of slow lings round to flank, sent in my 4 queens to tank the tanks hits while transfusing and sent my slow lings in the back to snipe anything that was undefended.. I think from memory I had a few zerglings with the queens. If I can find the replay I'll upload it, but it is very easy to defend, just gotta get that there flank and divert the tank fire so your lings can do the damage. | ||
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Savci007
Hungary10 Posts
On April 17 2011 22:08 B34ST wrote: It was on Xel Naga Caverns, I had bottom position he had sieged just bellow the gold rocks, 3 tanks I think, I sent a group of slow lings round to flank, sent in my 4 queens to tank the tanks hits while transfusing and sent my slow lings in the back to snipe anything that was undefended.. I think from memory I had a few zerglings with the queens. I don't see why would a terran send out 3 tanks alone. And was this off or on creep? | ||
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nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On April 17 2011 18:53 DarKFoRcE wrote: Most people here have probably never had such a thing as a gameplan and a buildorder that goes above 15-20 supply (from coaching people i know that ;p). Now if you are able to execute the build order he has given you, you are already a better player than anyone else in your league, just because the other people arent able to execute their buildorder and have no gameplan. so what DO you know from coaching players? That people from lower leagues who pay for coaching dont have them? Well, that is kind of obvious. The problem in your thinking is that not everyone in lower leagues pays for coaching. Your statement is actually an insult to those who know what strategy and tactics is and use it to their advantage in their games at any casual level of play. And you can believe me (for I know better), brain capacity for gameplanning doesnt start at high masters level. On April 17 2011 18:53 DarKFoRcE wrote: you cannot only be worried about all the random allins, but also about what you are going to do when your opponent sees that you get super late gas and stationary defense and just goes super super greedy. In the lower leagues you dont have people who play like this, because of all the allins that are being played No. Greed is poorly correlated to skill, it influences the style of playing, yes, but not the skill. Yesterday I watched a silver lvl game where a protoss cannon contained a zerg and went 4 (3 expos) bases before starting to make any units. Can your Cloud do that? And such examples are numerous. On April 17 2011 18:53 DarKFoRcE wrote: but the higher you get, you will encounter people who play like this more often, or play like this as a reaction to scouting no gas + stationary defense. How often? Reacting to static defence with eco play is not high-masters skill to have, sorry to brake your illusions but even bronze players can do that. Also the fact that terran responds to eco play by eco play doesnt counter the spanishiwa style yet. P.S. your efforts of proving this build is only viable at lower levels just screams arrogance to me. If you used categories like multitasking to prove your point I'd be fine with that. But you use categories like greediness, ability for basic gameplanning... | ||
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frucisky
Singapore2170 Posts
On April 17 2011 22:41 Cheerio wrote: hate commenting on the pros but you made some points on the subject you know little of: i.e. how people in lower leaugues (up to mid-low masters as you say) play, being more knowledgeble in the subject than you are I feel free to correct you. so what DO you know from coaching players? That people from lower leagues who pay for coaching dont have them? Well, that is kind of obvious. The problem in your thinking is that not everyone in lower leagues pays for coaching. Your statement is actually an insult to those who know what strategy and tactics is and use it to their advantage in their games at any casual level of play. And you can believe me (for I know better), brain capacity for gameplanning doesnt start at high masters level. No. Greed is poorly correlated to skill, it influences the style of playing, yes, but not the skill. Yesterday I watched a silver lvl game where a protoss cannon contained a zerg and went 4 (3 expos) bases before starting to make any units. Can your Cloud do that? And such examples are numerous. How often? Reacting to static defence with eco play is not high-masters skill to have, sorry to brake your illusions but even bronze players can do that. Also the fact that terran responds to eco play by eco play doesnt counter the spanishiwa style yet. P.S. your efforts of proving this build is only viable at lower levels just screams arrogance to me. If you used categories like multitasking to prove your point I'd be fine with that. But you use categories like greediness, ability for basic gameplanning... And so your point is that even lower league players can react as well as higher league players? Well your right! Thing is what matters is how well this is executed. A lower league player might all-in against this kind of build and fail while a higher league player will see the vulnerabilities to this build and mount a very well executed hard counter. Darkforce's point's just that as you go into higher leagues, there are many inherent weaknesses to this build that will get exploited very well by better players - i.e. going greedy like Cloud would. There isn't much ignorance in Darkforce's post tbh. There are a lot more all-in 1 basey cutesy pushes in the lower leagues than the higher ones. However, thing is, spanishiwa has consistently shown this build to be working in all match-ups in his stream. He just beat ChitaPrime in an epic ZvP on his stream and has won so many games in the grandmaster league. Its definitely not an end-all be-all kinda build and it does have its weaknesses. But as so many people have already mentioned these weaknesses do have their solutions with good scouting. All Zerg builds can be exploited if you think about it and so, while nitpicking is good, completely dismissing it at higher levels of play is wrong. Also more than looking at just the opener, the follow up (going into heavy infestor play and ultralisks with mass overseers to corrupt the robo bay with lots of nydus) is just as important. Spanishiwa has shown that roach hydra corrupter might be a lot less successful than this style of play. | ||
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Savci007
Hungary10 Posts
No. Greed is poorly correlated to skill, it influences the style of playing, yes, but not the skill. Yesterday I watched a silver lvl game where a protoss cannon contained a zerg and went 4 (3 expos) bases before starting to make any units. Can your Cloud do that? And such examples are numerous. Hi there, I'm Mister Nydus, husband of Mrs. Roach Bust. Or even better, don't let the cannons or pylons go up in the first place. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Paper117
United States210 Posts
On April 17 2011 22:17 Savci007 wrote: I don't see why would a terran send out 3 tanks alone. And was this off or on creep? Idk. He said it was a marine/ tank push. Maybe he's saying that there were marines in the natural with sieged tanks on the low ground for support. But even then, just killing the marines would get rid of the tanks' vision and make the tanks useless there. | ||
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Kuzmorgo
Hungary1058 Posts
On April 17 2011 18:53 DarKFoRcE wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 17 2011 11:42 Nemireck wrote: That's also a fair and valid point. For ladder play, this build is probably really solid (I'm going to be practicing it myself to see how it feels). But when pros post their criticisms, they have no choice but to judge the build based on what they know ACTUALLY works at the top levels of play, and it's good that they can come into these threads and point out the general weaknesses for those players that DO aspire to be the best, and not just become good, solid, ladder players. I think i have even said in a post before that people in lower leagues (or even low-mid masters) will probably have more success with this build than the build they used before. For this i see two reasons: a) the build they used before was worse than this build; b) they lacked experience for the build they used before. The thing is, spanishiwa gives you an overall gameplan and buildorder and a buildorder that fits to that gameplan. Most people here have probably never had such a thing as a gameplan and a buildorder that goes above 15-20 supply (from coaching people i know that ;p). Now if you are able to execute the build order he has given you, you are already a better player than anyone else in your league, just because the other people arent able to execute their buildorder and have no gameplan. The reason why i am critizing this build all the time is, that once you rise in the leagues at some point, this build order will give you some trouble. Imagine you have made it to the grandmaster league. Then you get your next laddermatch and its our friendly italian cloud. lets assume he just builds 1 rax at the bottom of the ramp on xel naga caverns. you have to be instantly concerned that a second baracks was proxied somewhere. so you better make like 2 crawlers at your natural minimum. turns out he is just going 1 rax CC and then immidiately into blueflame with just 1 rax. no bunkers (typical cloud :D). he then proceeds to poke around a little with hellions (killing creeptumors that are planted out of range of the crawlers) while going for double ebay and siegetank tech and getting a relatively quick third commandcenter. i dont want to go too much into detail as cloud has an important match against zerg coming up, but i can tell you that you're in quite some trouble if you have zergling speed finished as late as 80-90 supply. Especially in lower leagues, people play so many allins, and allins is what this build is great against (better than the way i play, i will freely admit!). the thing is just, that when you play against a greedy fuck like cloud (sorry i have to take you as an example again cloud :D), you cannot only be worried about all the random allins, but also about what you are going to do when your opponent sees that you get super late gas and stationary defense and just goes super super greedy. In the lower leagues you dont have people who play like this, because of all the allins that are being played, but the higher you get, you will encounter people who play like this more often, or play like this as a reaction to scouting no gas + stationary defense. On April 17 2011 16:57 Ziggitz wrote: I won't debate your other points about the build itself since I can't actually play the game right now and I'll be posting much of what I think about Spanishiwa's style in a document I'm in the process of writing, but this paragraph needs to be addressed, because it's absolutely poisonous thinking. [...] I shortened your quote so it doesnt make my postsize explode. Anyway, I am not just saying "my intuition tells me that this is bad, so its bad" I have given logical reasons in my posts why i personally do not like this build (for my level of play). I have made very big changes to by build orders over the time. As i said before, there were times when i was also one of those persons who liked to build spine crawlers. My playstyle has evolved out of that, and in my opinion it has evolved to the better, especially since it allows me to mix in allins (which is very important in my opinion). If you dont want my opinion/intuition, feel free to ignore it. I absolutely dont care what build you use, i am here out of 2 reasons: i like to argue, and i want to help people. If you dont want my help, i dont care, but there seem to be plenty of others who are quite happy that i do post here. So my post got pretty long, what i basically tried to say is: If you like the build and dont care too much whether its still effective at the very top, just play it. But if you want to make it to the very top or at least play with the aim of making it there, it might be better to learn the builds that are being used by the best (nestea, losira etc.). Due to my rather aggressive tone of argueing, people sometimes think i am just all negative, because you quickly forget that i actually do not only write negative things in my posts. First i would like to thank you for spending so much time educating us lower level players With all due respect though, I would like to point out, that Spanishiwa is in Grandmasters league right now. Well, of course he made his strategy public just recently, so maybe later on, when ppl get to know his build better, it will get less effective. But I don't see a reason to discard it as a style of play. I'm pretty sure if a build that hard-counters it comes up Spanishiwa will refine it, adapting to that. [Edit: typo] | ||
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AXygnus
Portugal1008 Posts
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B34ST
United Kingdom150 Posts
On April 17 2011 22:17 Savci007 wrote: I don't see why would a terran send out 3 tanks alone. And was this off or on creep? Marine/Tank push emplies there were marines, not just tanks. The marines and tanks were together in a ball, using one to scout for shots.. I think he was just trying to get a foot hold as he was just out of range of fire. | ||
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Nyarlathotep
United States10 Posts
While DarkForce and the like being up very valid flaws with the ceding of map control, at the same time, I'm wondering how much of that is underestimation of large amount of Queen play. There have been games on the stream where Spanishiwa has mass produced Queens to hold off against tons of early aggression. While certainly some builds will exploit the flaws in this general build order, I'm wondering how much good Queen play and slight, knowing modifications to the build order would compensate for that. I think that if you take the build order as is, 100% of the time, there are key flaws. But perhaps consider this more of an opening to be expanded upon as necessary. If you scout something that dictates and earlier Ling speed, throw down two extractors earlier and get the speed before lair tech. Alternatively, if for some reason you need lair tech earlier, same thing with Lair tech. Overall, I anticipate that this build is very robust, and while certainly is not the be all end all of Zerg play, certainly has the potential to become a fairly safe and standard build in general. I don't think you'd want to use it every game of a BoX match, but it still gives you lots of options, lots of potential, and does have a slight benefit to holding teching long enough to get a good idea of what the opponent is up to, with proper scouting technique. On that note, joining in with the "please stop flaming the pros." Seriously? They post valuable content to the forums because they feel like it. Don't jump to conclusions like: "they lost a game not using Spanishiwa therefore Spanishiwa is better." It hurts my mathematician soul. | ||
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