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On April 17 2011 09:18 aust1nz wrote:
Nemireck -- that's a really interesting and, in my mind, valid point. However, for those of us who are never going to play Starcraft BEYOND ladder play, I think this build provides an interesting alternative, especially in the ZvP matchup.
That said, would it make sense for a pro to have this build in their back pockets for an unorthodox play style when ahead?
That's also a fair and valid point. For ladder play, this build is probably really solid (I'm going to be practicing it myself to see how it feels). But when pros post their criticisms, they have no choice but to judge the build based on what they know ACTUALLY works at the top levels of play, and it's good that they can come into these threads and point out the general weaknesses for those players that DO aspire to be the best, and not just become good, solid, ladder players.
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On April 17 2011 06:43 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 06:15 KillerPlague wrote:
i love how spanishiwa is grand masters. just goes to show that there is some truth to this being viable. at the same time i'm sure other races haven't had enough practice vs this to understand the best way to counter it. Grandmaster NA doesn't mean anything. NA ladder isn't a good standard by any means as most talent goes over to ladder on KR most of the time.
"doesn't mean anything"
You're making it sound like a dump of crappy players.
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I can't see the sarcasm within Morrow's post.
Well, he seems a bit too enthusiastic.. They're not being serious. ;/
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On April 17 2011 11:54 iChau wrote:
I can't see the sarcasm within Morrow's post.
Well, he seems a bit too enthusiastic.. They're not being serious. ;/
16-10 isnt success if u ask me.. so im more towards morrow is being sacrastic. overall i like this build. it gives u a midgame econ boost and then u can do whatever u want with ur high midgame econ assuming u defended any early aggression really well.
thx spanishiwa :D
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Do any of you know how frustrating it is to read pages upon pages of replies flaming some of the best non-Korean Zergs in the world? Do you really think they haven't tried this kind of strategy before and are just theorycrafting? If they say it doesn't work, then they probably have a damn good reason of saying so. Just because you're platinum or diamond or, god forbid, masters, doesn't give you the authority to challenge them on this. Of course, you can ask them to elaborate, but posts like:
Darkforce you know you dont have to win any major tournaments to create a BO or a strat that could work on sc2 ? you lost by playing passive standard play vs Cruncher in NASL so u should think about exploring Spanishiwa BO maybe?
are absolutely not acceptable.
So before you try to flame a known player, know that they don't have to post here. I mean, what do they gain from giving advice to a bunch of unappreciative random players? I challenge you to find another site where pro players post with the regularity that they do on Teamliquid. So before you post, ask yourself this: do you really want to be a part of this community? Because if you do, you're going to have to realize that the way things work here might not be what you expect, and you're going to have to deal with that. Which means, you're going to have to deal with just having to listen to pros talk about strategies without making stupid rebuttals. And if you can't handle that, then maybe you belong somewhere else.
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Very very well said Saracen.
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the protoss 4 gate has given me the most difficulty out of any early agression/all-in-ish style of play. With that said i have read many posts and tried many different strategies but none have had as much success as the "ice fisher" build. once you have a good understanding of this build and its timings, i gaurantee the 4 gate will never generate as much threat as it previously did. All aspiring zergs should try this build out. Its is very different and a fun change of pace from the standard 14gas/14pool or 14-15 hatch first. the econ boost is amazing. only trouble i have is with ZvZ. this is only because my micro is not that great yet. if you survive the initial attack chances are that you will win the game easily due to your crazy economy and superior upgrades. all i'm saying is give this build a try before you hate on it. i have had protoss bm me on ladder simply because their blind 4 gate got stomped by this build. to quote a diamond protoss, "this spanishiwa build is bull****".....and leaves the game. someone got upset b/c his 4 gate has become much less ineffective. im sure ppl will quote this and tell me a bunch of ways their 4 gate will beat this but i dont care so pls dont waste your time. ty. Spanishiwa ftw!
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spanishiwa build carries over to other races too
it should just be called the no-gas FE standard
it works very well..of course you have to take all the other factors into consideration...it's highly important for success as EVERY build can be countered.
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On April 17 2011 13:26 Saracen wrote:Do any of you know how frustrating it is to read pages upon pages of replies flaming some of the best non-Korean Zergs in the world? Do you really think they haven't tried this kind of strategy before and are just theorycrafting? If they say it doesn't work, then they probably have a damn good reason of saying so. Just because you're platinum or diamond or, god forbid, masters, doesn't give you the authority to challenge them on this. Of course, you can ask them to elaborate, but posts like: Show nested quote +Darkforce you know you dont have to win any major tournaments to create a BO or a strat that could work on sc2 ? you lost by playing passive standard play vs Cruncher in NASL so u should think about exploring Spanishiwa BO maybe? are absolutely not acceptable. So before you try to flame a known player, know that they don't have to post here. I mean, what do they gain from giving advice to a bunch of unappreciative random players? I challenge you to find another site where pro players post with the regularity that they do on Teamliquid. So before you post, ask yourself this: do you really want to be a part of this community? Because if you do, you're going to have to realize that the way things work here might not be what you expect, and you're going to have to deal with that. Which means, you're going to have to deal with just having to listen to pros talk about strategies without making stupid rebuttals. And if you can't handle that, then maybe you belong somewhere else.
If someone has tried a build and failed with it, it's their duty to post with replays. If they don't want to provide replays, the strategy section stagnates. That's the foundation of this section of TL, present ideas, test them, post results. You are defending players who are saying, "nope, no good" with no further information. I really like how TL works and how people are willing to present their findings, but if people are getting shot down without anyone providing information, what is there to learn?
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On April 08 2011 07:38 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Maybe this is the case, we will most likely never know. But i personally think its a good attitude to be very very critical of a new build order, otherwise you will implement alot of bad habits in your play. Im very open to trying things, but i put a lot of value into my intuition when it comes to whether a build might be viable or not. And as i pointed out in another post, the build seems just so completely counterintuitive that i do not see it worth putting in alot of time. The advantage we humans have over a computer is that we can detect patterns and thus dont have to do everything by trial and error.
I won't debate your other points about the build itself since I can't actually play the game right now and I'll be posting much of what I think about Spanishiwa's style in a document I'm in the process of writing, but this paragraph needs to be addressed, because it's absolutely poisonous thinking.
There are way too many variables to be able to legitimately dismiss a build out of hand just from reading a thread about it. If BW Terrans just stuck with what felt intuitive, SK Terran style with mass science vessels and bio would probably not exist even today, nor would the Bisu build. The most creative people in the world have been shown to have different connections between the two lobes of their brains that actually allow them to construct and consider ideas that don't initially feel right.
Basically I'm saying that if you're like 99.99% of humans your intuition is probably shit and your pattern seeking ability is full of false positives and false negatives just like everyone else's. If all Zergs takes the same approach you do and never attempt anything new that doesn't feel intuitive, the Zerg race will stagnate and we'll never have any new builds. Are you never ever going to try out a build order that concedes map control or doesn't feel intuitive? Do you somehow think that all the core tenants that Zerg build orders currently follow are 100% set in stone never to change and never to be challenged? That there is no underlying principle that doesn't initially make a lot of sense given how we currently perceive the metagame?
I understand that as a progamer you have to practice smart in order to improve as fast as you possibly can. That is a fair and valid reason to not spend all your time picking apart this build yourself to determine its effectiveness regardless of whether or not it is actually viable. However this is not an intellectual or practical argument against it.
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FYI, Spanishiwa has admitted (on his stream) that Darkforce is right and the build most likely doesn't work at the pro level. However, since 98-99% of the SC community are not progamers, the build can still be very useful to vast majority of the community.
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On April 17 2011 16:28 TheGrimace wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 13:26 Saracen wrote:Do any of you know how frustrating it is to read pages upon pages of replies flaming some of the best non-Korean Zergs in the world? Do you really think they haven't tried this kind of strategy before and are just theorycrafting? If they say it doesn't work, then they probably have a damn good reason of saying so. Just because you're platinum or diamond or, god forbid, masters, doesn't give you the authority to challenge them on this. Of course, you can ask them to elaborate, but posts like: Darkforce you know you dont have to win any major tournaments to create a BO or a strat that could work on sc2 ? you lost by playing passive standard play vs Cruncher in NASL so u should think about exploring Spanishiwa BO maybe? are absolutely not acceptable. So before you try to flame a known player, know that they don't have to post here. I mean, what do they gain from giving advice to a bunch of unappreciative random players? I challenge you to find another site where pro players post with the regularity that they do on Teamliquid. So before you post, ask yourself this: do you really want to be a part of this community? Because if you do, you're going to have to realize that the way things work here might not be what you expect, and you're going to have to deal with that. Which means, you're going to have to deal with just having to listen to pros talk about strategies without making stupid rebuttals. And if you can't handle that, then maybe you belong somewhere else. If someone has tried a build and failed with it, it's their duty to post with replays. If they don't want to provide replays, the strategy section stagnates. That's the foundation of this section of TL, present ideas, test them, post results. You are defending players who are saying, "nope, no good" with no further information. I really like how TL works and how people are willing to present their findings, but if people are getting shot down without anyone providing information, what is there to learn?
Believe it or not, we don't require people to post counter-replays, nor do we require them to post replays with every post we make. If you actually read DarkForcE's posts, you would see that he doesn't actually say "nope, no good," but in fact elaborates on why he thinks it's no good. Also, if you can't deal with the fact that different people are held to slightly different standards at TL, maybe you should take your strategy discussions elsewhere.
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On April 17 2011 16:57 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 07:38 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Maybe this is the case, we will most likely never know. But i personally think its a good attitude to be very very critical of a new build order, otherwise you will implement alot of bad habits in your play. Im very open to trying things, but i put a lot of value into my intuition when it comes to whether a build might be viable or not. And as i pointed out in another post, the build seems just so completely counterintuitive that i do not see it worth putting in alot of time. The advantage we humans have over a computer is that we can detect patterns and thus dont have to do everything by trial and error.
I won't debate your other points about the build itself since I can't actually play the game right now and I'll be posting much of what I think about Spanishiwa's style in a document I'm in the process of writing, but this paragraph needs to be addressed, because it's absolutely poisonous thinking. There are way too many variables to be able to legitimately dismiss a build out of hand just from reading a thread about it. If BW Terrans just stuck with what felt intuitive, SK Terran style with mass science vessels and bio would probably not exist even today, nor would the Bisu build. The most creative people in the world have been shown to have different connections between the two lobes of their brains that actually allow them to construct and consider ideas that don't initially feel right. Basically I'm saying that if you're like 99.99% of humans your intuition is probably shit and your pattern seeking ability is full of false positives and false negatives just like everyone else's. If all Zergs takes the same approach you do and never attempt anything new that doesn't feel intuitive, the Zerg race will stagnate and we'll never have any new builds. Are you never ever going to try out a build order that concedes map control or doesn't feel intuitive? Do you somehow think that all the core tenants that Zerg build orders currently follow are 100% set in stone never to change and never to be challenged? That there is no underlying principle that doesn't initially make a lot of sense given how we currently perceive the metagame? I understand that as a progamer you have to practice smart in order to improve as fast as you possibly can. That is a fair and valid reason to not spend all your time picking apart this build yourself to determine its effectiveness regardless of whether or not it is actually viable. However this is not an intellectual or practical argument against it.
Then why bother even responding? Just ignore him and move on. If you like the build so much, try it out. I'll be willing to be that you do extremely well with it. But then you hit a certain skill level where you can't improve anymore, or you need to change up some things with your play. All he's saying is that there's going to be a point where this build stops working, and he's trying to say why. It may be be high masters, mid masters, or even low diamond. It all depends on the player and who he's playing against. If you think he's wrong, that's fine. But it's kind of ridiculous to put out a blanket generic "you're maybe wrong because this might be the new big revolutionary way to play Zerg in the future" statement. On the other hand, if you can actually show him he's wrong, then by all means go ahead.
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On April 17 2011 17:27 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 16:57 Ziggitz wrote:On April 08 2011 07:38 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Maybe this is the case, we will most likely never know. But i personally think its a good attitude to be very very critical of a new build order, otherwise you will implement alot of bad habits in your play. Im very open to trying things, but i put a lot of value into my intuition when it comes to whether a build might be viable or not. And as i pointed out in another post, the build seems just so completely counterintuitive that i do not see it worth putting in alot of time. The advantage we humans have over a computer is that we can detect patterns and thus dont have to do everything by trial and error.
I won't debate your other points about the build itself since I can't actually play the game right now and I'll be posting much of what I think about Spanishiwa's style in a document I'm in the process of writing, but this paragraph needs to be addressed, because it's absolutely poisonous thinking. There are way too many variables to be able to legitimately dismiss a build out of hand just from reading a thread about it. If BW Terrans just stuck with what felt intuitive, SK Terran style with mass science vessels and bio would probably not exist even today, nor would the Bisu build. The most creative people in the world have been shown to have different connections between the two lobes of their brains that actually allow them to construct and consider ideas that don't initially feel right. Basically I'm saying that if you're like 99.99% of humans your intuition is probably shit and your pattern seeking ability is full of false positives and false negatives just like everyone else's. If all Zergs takes the same approach you do and never attempt anything new that doesn't feel intuitive, the Zerg race will stagnate and we'll never have any new builds. Are you never ever going to try out a build order that concedes map control or doesn't feel intuitive? Do you somehow think that all the core tenants that Zerg build orders currently follow are 100% set in stone never to change and never to be challenged? That there is no underlying principle that doesn't initially make a lot of sense given how we currently perceive the metagame? I understand that as a progamer you have to practice smart in order to improve as fast as you possibly can. That is a fair and valid reason to not spend all your time picking apart this build yourself to determine its effectiveness regardless of whether or not it is actually viable. However this is not an intellectual or practical argument against it. Then why bother even responding? Just ignore him and move on. If you like the build so much, try it out. I'll be willing to be that you do extremely well with it. But then you hit a certain skill level where you can't improve anymore, or you need to change up some things with your play. All he's saying is that there's going to be a point where this build stops working, and he's trying to say why. It may be be high masters, mid masters, or even low diamond. It all depends on the player and who he's playing against. If you think he's wrong, that's fine. But it's kind of ridiculous to put out a blanket generic "you're maybe wrong because this might be the new big revolutionary way to play Zerg in the future" statement. On the other hand, if you can actually show him he's wrong, then by all means go ahead.
You missed the point of my post entirely. Whether the build works or not, and whether he is right or not is entirely independent of the point I was making. I was criticizing his attitude and his dependence on his intuition and (as I gathered from his post) not even trying builds that don't make sense to him straight away.
I wrote what I posted because that is most definitely a terrible attitude and methodology to have in any field and will do Zerg a disservice to have anyone come away from this thread adopting that mindset.
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If anything though, I enjoy the way spanishiwa transitions this build into the late game with ultralisk and investor and never using mutalisks (at least in the games I've watched). I've seen his unit composition deal with the deathball and marine tank to more success than what I've seen of zergs lately, which is that 300 army (attack with units, replenish immediately because of economy). More recently I've seen the early weaknesses of this build(many of which darkforce said I saw) as I was watching spanishiwa play today.
But when he does reach that late game, that constant nydus play, ultras and infestors is something I hope to see more often then say roach corruptor infestor or mutabaneling.
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plz plz plz upload a replay pack! its awfully annoying to download each one individually, and I want to see more :p
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"Add a spine around each minute or so, as this means his larva will be going to zerglings (and if they're going to drones, then he's just over saturating and you'll be ahead regardless)."
He'll see your spines, he'll expand and yes, he'll get roaches. He will not go zerglings because he is not stupid, or if he will, he'll just slip them inside your main until he realises that it doesn't work that effectively.
I still don't get this no gas opening. Sure, it gives you an economic lead but you get slaughtered 2.5 times before you get to the point where you get gas heavy units, and since you "waste" drones on Spine Crawlers anyway, he can just get drones and roaches. He'll be pressuring you and gain an economic lead at the same time, because his army is made of mobile 75-mineral units, while yours is a 150-mineral one that can't even reposition without loosing its ability to attack.
Gas is not something that you waste drones on to mine, it is a resource that allows you to spend more larvae on drones while having an army of formidable size, thus putting you in the lead. It is unwise to assume that just because you mine more minerals, you'll be ahead.
Did that make sense to any of you? 
Also, one other thing to note is that without gas units, you'll be stuck on those two bases for all eternity, because those lings won't take down his tech, even if they deal with some roaches. He'll just harass and expand and drone up because he can do that. If he really gets annoyed by your lings (in case someone implements harass into this build), hell, he'll just get burrow tech for the drones and laugh.
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On April 17 2011 13:26 Saracen wrote:Do any of you know how frustrating it is to read pages upon pages of replies flaming some of the best non-Korean Zergs in the world? Do you really think they haven't tried this kind of strategy before and are just theorycrafting? If they say it doesn't work, then they probably have a damn good reason of saying so. Just because you're platinum or diamond or, god forbid, masters, doesn't give you the authority to challenge them on this. Of course, you can ask them to elaborate, but posts like: Show nested quote +Darkforce you know you dont have to win any major tournaments to create a BO or a strat that could work on sc2 ? you lost by playing passive standard play vs Cruncher in NASL so u should think about exploring Spanishiwa BO maybe? are absolutely not acceptable. So before you try to flame a known player, know that they don't have to post here. I mean, what do they gain from giving advice to a bunch of unappreciative random players? I challenge you to find another site where pro players post with the regularity that they do on Teamliquid. So before you post, ask yourself this: do you really want to be a part of this community? Because if you do, you're going to have to realize that the way things work here might not be what you expect, and you're going to have to deal with that. Which means, you're going to have to deal with just having to listen to pros talk about strategies without making stupid rebuttals. And if you can't handle that, then maybe you belong somewhere else.
TL is a meritocracy, not a democracy. that's how it keeps the quality up.
when's the purge coming?
regarding the build, i just think it's fun to play with, gives me enjoyment. dont' know why people are arguing with pro players about it's viability in tournament play.
If you're not a pro, you don't really need to bother about whether it's viable at the top level, just need to bother about whether it's fun and has a decent win rate.
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On April 17 2011 18:21 johanngrunt wrote:
regarding the build, i just think it's fun to play with, gives me enjoyment. dont' know why people are arguing with pro players about it's viability in tournament play.
There isn't much to discuss on a build other than how effective it is in different situations
Yeah, I know, the fun factor. I don't know, I find fun in every build.
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Well after play testing most of my criticisms fall the same with what people have posted.
Its really easy to use, it defends the popular all ins very well and has made it a solid ladder build for weaker zerg players because of that. The average ladder player is not that smart, and will all in/copy random cheese build off pro straight into a counter like this because they are stupid and dont know how to adapt.
However the weaknesses the pros and etc have posted all stand true, against someone who knows what im doing crushes this for the said reasons, and it will never be standard play because of it.
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EPT
