EPT[G] Spanishiwa's No Gas FE ZvX - Page 29
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imareaver3
United States906 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On April 17 2011 06:15 KillerPlague wrote: i love how spanishiwa is grand masters. just goes to show that there is some truth to this being viable. at the same time i'm sure other races haven't had enough practice vs this to understand the best way to counter it. Grandmaster NA doesn't mean anything. NA ladder isn't a good standard by any means as most talent goes over to ladder on KR most of the time. | ||
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Dudemeister
Sweden314 Posts
Also I feel like it should be treated as an opener and not a definitive style you can go every game. This would, from my experience, bring the potential(non all in) openers to: - Hatch first, gas around 20, defend with lings - Hatch first, gas around 40, defend with spines/queens - Pool in to Hatch, gas around 20 - Gas/Pool, expansion around 20 It's just a very economic way to get to that Lair midgame where a lot of options open up for Zerg. What you decide to do with all the options is up to the player, and there are many openers that gets you to that stage. Now besides going for an unusual opener, spanishiwa has unusual ways of playing versus the races in this mid and late game. Such as: - Infestors with a lot of harass focus - Extensive nydus usgage combined with utras in the late game - Favoring upgrades instead of mutas But opening one way does not exclude playing the mid game in an unorthodox way. You can go whatever path you want, this is just a new way to get there. And as shown by the recent showmatches against ROOTminigun, if the Zerg is left with little harassment, this opener gives a HUGE economic advantage. | ||
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VashTS
United States1675 Posts
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Iacoopa
2 Posts
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Negative Zero
United States63 Posts
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Nemireck
Canada1875 Posts
On April 17 2011 06:07 adeezy wrote: I just re-read morrows post and I find it hard to find any sarcasm either Exley, so I don't know what to believe now lol You have to read his post from the perspective of a proven tournament player. Most pros don't take the Blizzard ladder seriously at all. They understand that out of 50 games, they're going to play 40 opponents that couldn't make it past the first round of the MLG open bracket. Therefore, when Morrow was talking about his "great success" and then placed in brackets that he was 16-10 in the Grand Master's league, that was indication of sarcasm. Likewise, when he said to give Destiny, Spanish, and all the forum-chatters a few months to prove themselves, it was tongue in cheek, because guys like Destiny have ALREADY been playing for months and have plateaued. For Destiny to take the next step forward in his progression, he is going to need to stop using his unorthodox play as a crutch, and abandon it in favour of mastering solid, standard play. When you're at the top of the skill pyramid, you're better able to spot strengths and weaknesses in other people's play. This is true across all platforms, skills and abilities, and it's a fact backed by scientific research. Those that are more capable, are also more capable of judging the talents of others. | ||
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shuckyducky
United States19 Posts
On April 17 2011 08:11 Negative Zero wrote: I still don't know what this build is supposed to do against 5rax reaper. They obliterate slowlings and queens if they don't overcommit on the creep, and they're even decent against spines (although they can pretty safely just jump up into the nat and ignore the spines entirely). After seeing the 5 rax reaper suggestion on reddit, I asked Spanishiwa about it on his stream. He didn't feel it was a threat at all. Spanishiwa felt that 5 rax reaper is easily scouted and prepared for - limiting terran's ability to punish him in the early game. Once he transitions to four gas and grabs lair, he would expect to be significantly ahead. | ||
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aust1nz
United States28 Posts
That said, would it make sense for a pro to have this build in their back pockets for an unorthodox play style when ahead? | ||
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DustyShelf
United Kingdom111 Posts
On April 17 2011 06:43 CecilSunkure wrote: Grandmaster NA doesn't mean anything. NA ladder isn't a good standard by any means as most talent goes over to ladder on KR most of the time. While I appreciate you probably have superior knowledge to me to state that "it doesn't mean ANYTHING" is surely a little over the top. We're talking about the top 200 spots on a ladder here. It means _something_ surely. I was under the impression that while it was quite easy to get relatively high on the NA servers the very, very top was still comprised of talented players, some of which are professionals that are well known. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
Or more recently, Kiwikaki vs Select at MLG. On April 07 2011 00:00 DarKFoRcE wrote: I think this is actually the big weakness of this build. Also against a terran who goes for something like 2 rax into expand. once the terrans sees youre investing in stationary defense and queens (who are pretty stationary aswell) he could just take his third before you. Because of this i still think that using this build is developing bad habits. The thing is, on ladder, so many people play early pushes, and against that, this build is great, but if your opponent simply plays super greedy, you cannot punish him for that. ^--This is the most obvious issue with this build at higher levels. You don't exert any pressure against your opponent to do something specific that you can counter. For example, a Zerg FEs against a 1 basing Terran forces a set of somewhat predictable responses. You force your opponent to do a game-ending attack or harass and take a later a expo. For Terran its probably a Marine/Tank timing push or some sort of expo behind marine drop. You then have responses prepared for each of the practical cases or pray they don't go the the cases that just kill you. This build is deceptively powerful, sure it can handle many early game timing attacks but if you know your opponent is going this, you can just exploit the lack of scouting and map control as well as the delayed ability of zerg to do anything. There's no reason for the opponent to attack instead of just expand twice as its tough for this build to punish expoing. What are you going to do? There's a reason why you don't see the mass queen or infestor instead of muta styles on the higher end of the ladder. I mean, they'll work but not in a BoX against someone who doesn't cookie cutter. This isn't a big deal against laddering players that most people here just ladder so again, not such a big deal. But you should be like Goody and just keep refining until you make it work in these situations if that's possible. Or just power through despite the disadvantages: | ||
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ShiGu)
France14 Posts
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Splitintwo
35 Posts
http://www.youtube.com/user/AhnarisStarcraft#p/u/7/qD91shEd6eQ And I was wondering why he actually managed to win. Kitty did a great job harassing and spent alot of the game far higher in pop. Was it simply the strength of the infestors and the two los blockers in the middle of the map which stopped it? And if you can delay a push for a large amount of time, does the creep spread and zergling control with this build allow you to power mid game and defend drops easier (at a high level of multitasking) more than a standard zerg play? It also seems that his style that this opening transititions into with the infestors, nydus and zerling harass is very apm intensive and he managed to win the game despite many flaws in his multitasking (such as pulling back his whole army to deal with drops) admittedly alot of this is map dependant (e.g. above: Shakuras is a nice wide open huge map) and I've only seen 10 - 12 games of his. Do people think this greater potential for apm exploitation may help severly strengthen it's midgame? Alot of questions... and I would love to see some more replays of him against some of criticisms levelled in this thread. Here's hoping it might be successful, as it's very fun to watch. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On April 17 2011 10:32 ShiGu) wrote: The thing that a lot of people prolly don't get is that spanishiwa does this build to be able to make use of his amazing harrassment style in late macro game so i dont think he cares much if his oppo takes a 3rd rather early, he'll make good use of nydus, infestors, banes drops and everything like that to win with superior multitask skills and all that; that's a perfect build for zergs who feel frustrated to lose against some timing pushes etc when they feel they would win in the late game If he can overcome that specific response and all the other responses reasonably well, then he can and has a neat little style.  | ||
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MonsieurGrimm
Canada2441 Posts
On April 17 2011 10:32 ShiGu) wrote: The thing that a lot of people prolly don't get is that spanishiwa does this build to be able to make use of his amazing harrassment style in late macro game so i dont think he cares much if his oppo takes a 3rd rather early, he'll make good use of nydus, infestors, banes drops and everything like that to win with superior multitask skills and all that; that's a perfect build for zergs who feel frustrated to lose against some timing pushes etc when they feel they would win in the late game Yeah, I have a feeling that the quick 3rd might not be as good a strat against this as it seems - bases take a long time to start getting you money and in that time, you've sunk a lot of minerals into it. I feel like a strong 2 base allin could beat the quick 3rd but I'm a lowly diamond player  so I'm gonna trust the blues, for now. | ||
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askTeivospy
1525 Posts
edit - if you're going shameless all in on your economy early game then why wouldn't it be punishable by a slightly delayed 4 gate vs no speed lings | ||
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ShiGu)
France14 Posts
On April 17 2011 11:06 Teivospy wrote: can't you just delay a 4 gate attack to get an obs or something to spot the highground and warp in past the spine crawlers? drones until 40... edit - if you're going shameless all in on your economy early game then why wouldn't it be punishable by a slightly delayed 4 gate vs no speed lings Watch spanishiwa vs cruncher, i believe the replay was casted by someone, cruncher went for something like that but good queen + lings + spine crawler usage will be ok as long as u control properly | ||
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askTeivospy
1525 Posts
On April 17 2011 11:20 ShiGu) wrote: Watch spanishiwa vs cruncher, i believe the replay was casted by someone, cruncher went for something like that but good queen + lings + spine crawler usage will be ok as long as u control properly kk i'll watch that one, but I'd rather see multiple replays of it before making up my mind | ||
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themell
43 Posts
On April 17 2011 08:11 Negative Zero wrote: I still don't know what this build is supposed to do against 5rax reaper. They obliterate slowlings and queens if they don't overcommit on the creep, and they're even decent against spines (although they can pretty safely just jump up into the nat and ignore the spines entirely). continuously cancel/steal their gas, it should slow down the 5 rax reaper. If they only get 1 or 2 marines out, you can steal it indefinitely until they build their first reaper. In the meantime, change your build and throw down two refineries and roach warren. After you hold off the reapers, push with the roaches and crush him, or at least deny the expo. | ||
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themell
43 Posts
On April 17 2011 06:43 CecilSunkure wrote: Grandmaster NA doesn't mean anything. NA ladder isn't a good standard by any means as most talent goes over to ladder on KR most of the time. yes, because I'm sure a parent would love to send their 17 yr old son (spanishiwa) to another country. If you're in grand masters, then you're in grand masters. And he got their by using this build. That already says that this build is a good opener. | ||
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