EPThttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191702
Basically the golden number is 24 but you get more out of your worker if they are at a less saturated area, so 2 per patch is an easy way to go about
[G] Spanishiwa's No Gas FE ZvX - Page 27
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adeezy
United States1428 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191702 Basically the golden number is 24 but you get more out of your worker if they are at a less saturated area, so 2 per patch is an easy way to go about | ||
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MonsieurGrimm
Canada2441 Posts
On April 16 2011 11:12 kawaiiryuko wrote: I noticed in the OP, and in some of Spanishiwa's responses, that he suggest 2 workers per mineral patch as "saturation." I was under the assumption that it was 3 workers - is it just 2 workers during the heavy initial droning phase and then max'ing up to 3 per mineral patch later on? Or is a fully saturated bases 20 drones (3 per gas, 2 per mineral)? I did a quick ctrl-f to see if I saw anyone mention this but I didn't see any mention.  Thanks.The math for each base works out like this: Every worker up to 16 adds to the income by a certain amount. However, every worker above 16 only contributes ~half the normal amount, and any more than 24 contribute no income. So, it's optimal to have less drones on more bases than more drones on less bases (most of the time) | ||
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pwncakery
Canada131 Posts
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kawaiiryuko
United States368 Posts
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
Whenever I try this I get absolutely crushed by multi-rax marine pressure. I can hold off the first few waves, but eventually I'm losing more than the opponent and my army is whittled down to nothing. Cost for cost marines crucify all my early units, even the first few roaches. Anyone else having problems with this? | ||
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Ziggitz
United States340 Posts
On April 16 2011 11:12 kawaiiryuko wrote: I noticed in the OP, and in some of Spanishiwa's responses, that he suggest 2 workers per mineral patch as "saturation." I was under the assumption that it was 3 workers - is it just 2 workers during the heavy initial droning phase and then max'ing up to 3 per mineral patch later on? Or is a fully saturated bases 20 drones (3 per gas, 2 per mineral)? I did a quick ctrl-f to see if I saw anyone mention this but I didn't see any mention. Thanks.2 drones is the most you can have per patch and have them harvesting 100% of the time, which is optimal. If you add a third drone, that one will not bring as much income as each of the two first drones because there will be some time spent waiting around to take turns. As Zerg your units are so gas heavy that you usually don't want more than 16 drones on a mineral line, it's better to just take an expo and take more gas and have more drones optimally saturating a new mineral line. So basically get your 32 drones for minerals, 12 more for gas and then only build more drones to replace the old ones as you make buildings or when you secure a new expo. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
http://www.justin.tv/complexity/b/283778899 Anyway, I'm sure it will be a good experience for you, as playing the same opponent multiple times will force some adjustments and makes you discover and refine some timings. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
You lack map control with this, but unless you know that you need mapcontrol early on you might as well give it up. I m not saying one should strive for map control early mid game, on the contrary since doing this regularily i can appreciate if i gain mapcontrol with other builds, as i know what it's worth. The late detection as some pointed out, might be a problem, but i throw down an evo even before Gas if i consider any chance of cloack rushes. (+u ought to steal gas) The best thing is, when i lose with this i can point out what went wrong, in many cases i stood clueless of wtf just happened in the past. | ||
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vojnik
Macedonia923 Posts
thanks man | ||
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Kalpman
Sweden406 Posts
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FluidTek
Australia50 Posts
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themell
43 Posts
The thing I see that might be a problem is yourself not being able to scout well. That means sacrificial overlords or lings. I think this build will become a standard build order. You won't use it in every game, but it's always an option since it's a strong build. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
The biggest problem i have, however, is the extremely annoying pylon block on maps where there is no easy third (which means most maps). The only solution seems to be to switch to a pool first build, which i don't really like. Are there any hints on how to prevent the pylon block? I tried faking gas, but it rarely works as the protoss still patrols his probe at the natural and i don't really have the perfect micro to prevent pylon blocks every time either. | ||
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truthless
Sweden120 Posts
Starting out with a typical 3gate sentry expand BO, you can easily decide to skip the sentries as soon as you scout it and transition into a hidden council+dark shrine in some corner of the map unlikely to be scouted, spend all your WG cooldowns on getting zealots (which will shred the no-speed zerglings) and will easily allow you to take your natural just like your typical 3gate expand (maybe a teensy bit later). Have your scouting probe drop a pylon in a decent spot and your DTs should arrive no later than 7:30 (probably upwards 30 sec before then, if you get a good proxy pylon) at his ramp, at which point he should have no more than 4 queens. Even if he's blocking the ramp with two of them your 3+ DTs will rip through that in a matter of seconds. I believe it takes 4 hits to kill a queen. They won't have energy to transfuse more than once or twice each. If you're not up that ramp 10-15 sec after you arrive I'd be massively surprised. Spanishiwa dropped his evos and started his lair tech at like 8:00 in the first game. Granted, he saw a lot of sentries, so he didn't need to worry about templar tech, but I just don't see how he can possibly hold off a DT rush without being forced to either take gas earlier and go lair tech, or drop his first evo a full minute earlier and drop several spore crawlers, at which point you simply back off with your DTs, use all your gas to make archons, and hit a hard 6gate timing with zealots+archons. All he'll have is spinecrawlers and zerglings. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On April 16 2011 13:07 Mjolnir wrote: Whenever I try this I get absolutely crushed by multi-rax marine pressure. I can hold off the first few waves, but eventually I'm losing more than the opponent and my army is whittled down to nothing. Cost for cost marines crucify all my early units, even the first few roaches. Anyone else having problems with this? what army and what roaches? as far as i ve seen OP does not go roach vs terran at all, and for the msot of the early game he has no army to speak of besides queens and crawlers and scouting lings | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On April 17 2011 02:24 truthless wrote: I watched the day9 daily and I fail to be convinced that a DT rush cannot kill this, or at the very least, do significant damage to it which would allow you to clean it up with straight up zealots and archons afterwards. Starting out with a typical 3gate sentry expand BO, you can easily decide to skip the sentries as soon as you scout it and transition into a hidden council+dark shrine in some corner of the map unlikely to be scouted, spend all your WG cooldowns on getting zealots (which will shred the no-speed zerglings) and will easily allow you to take your natural just like your typical 3gate expand (maybe a teensy bit later). Have your scouting probe drop a pylon in a decent spot and your DTs should arrive no later than 7:30 (probably upwards 30 sec before then, if you get a good proxy pylon) at his ramp, at which point he should have no more than 4 queens. Even if he's blocking the ramp with two of them your 3+ DTs will rip through that in a matter of seconds. I believe it takes 4 hits to kill a queen. They won't have energy to transfuse more than once or twice each. If you're not up that ramp 10-15 sec after you arrive I'd be massively surprised. Spanishiwa dropped his evos and started his lair tech at like 8:00 in the first game. Granted, he saw a lot of sentries, so he didn't need to worry about templar tech, but I just don't see how he can possibly hold off a DT rush without being forced to either take gas earlier and go lair tech, or drop his first evo a full minute earlier and drop several spore crawlers, at which point you simply back off with your DTs, use all your gas to make archons, and hit a hard 6gate timing with zealots+archons. All he'll have is spinecrawlers and zerglings. as you point out for yourself, he could see many sentries, no f ing way that a P is DT rushing and has more then 2-3 sentries. Btw if you watch the series vs Minigun he beats the 3 gate dt expand build of Minigun very very easily you only need a slightly earlier evo (1) and put down 1 spore at the right place, and that is it | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On April 17 2011 02:24 truthless wrote: I watched the day9 daily and I fail to be convinced that a DT rush cannot kill this, or at the very least, do significant damage to it which would allow you to clean it up with straight up zealots and archons afterwards. Starting out with a typical 3gate sentry expand BO, you can easily decide to skip the sentries as soon as you scout it and transition into a hidden council+dark shrine in some corner of the map unlikely to be scouted, spend all your WG cooldowns on getting zealots (which will shred the no-speed zerglings) and will easily allow you to take your natural just like your typical 3gate expand (maybe a teensy bit later). Have your scouting probe drop a pylon in a decent spot and your DTs should arrive no later than 7:30 (probably upwards 30 sec before then, if you get a good proxy pylon) at his ramp, at which point he should have no more than 4 queens. Even if he's blocking the ramp with two of them your 3+ DTs will rip through that in a matter of seconds. I believe it takes 4 hits to kill a queen. They won't have energy to transfuse more than once or twice each. If you're not up that ramp 10-15 sec after you arrive I'd be massively surprised. Spanishiwa dropped his evos and started his lair tech at like 8:00 in the first game. Granted, he saw a lot of sentries, so he didn't need to worry about templar tech, but I just don't see how he can possibly hold off a DT rush without being forced to either take gas earlier and go lair tech, or drop his first evo a full minute earlier and drop several spore crawlers, at which point you simply back off with your DTs, use all your gas to make archons, and hit a hard 6gate timing with zealots+archons. All he'll have is spinecrawlers and zerglings. Thing is, you poke often to see what they have, and if you only see zealots, you can expect either A) stargate play or B) DT rush. If you see mostly zealots, you just plop down that evo chamber early. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
It's very simple... You use the build, enjoy your success, and when you encounter problems, you ADAPT. Maybe at some point down the road you can decide it is not viable and abandon it, but it is a complete waste of time to come in here and sit on your hands and theorycraft. I'm gonna use this build and see for myself what the potential weaknesses are instead of taking someone's word for it, particularly if they have a habit of crapping on every unique and innovative discussion for Zerg on the strategy forum. Thanks a lot Spanishiwa, for putting in the effort to provide this build to us. You knocked me out of the cricket open tournament, but I will accept this build as consolation. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
It's really an incrediby safe build and you can transition into basically anything backed up by the strong Macro you'll most likely have. I really have wondered why you should even get speed that early anyways and with that many queens, you are really safe against Air, even cloaked banshees are no Prob, just put down 1 Spore at each Hatch and just use it for the detection and fight banshees or other cloaked stuff off with the Queens etc. The only thing I kinda have Problems with is an early 1base Tank-Marine-push... You really need to scout it and get 1-2 Gas up earlier tog et speed and bainlings or even 3-4 Gas and get Mutas out, cuz neither Spines, nor Lings nor Queens are really that useful against Tanks+Marines... It's also kinda sad that some of the Maps have such an open Natural, like Xel Naga, so you can't really use that build, at least it's much harder to pull off. It's also a minor Problem that you cannot really be aggressive with slow Lings, Queens and Spines of course, so you really need to do a lot of harrassment or win major battles in the mid to lategame to win against a Macro-oriented enemy. | ||
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Wihl
Sweden472 Posts
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