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[G] Spanishiwa's No Gas FE ZvX - Page 25
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adeezy
United States1428 Posts
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On April 16 2011 04:29 adeezy wrote: To the pros criticizing this build: try it before you criticize it. It's easy to point out and find weaknesses without actually using it. If a pro is criticizing this build, it's because it is easy to find weaknesses with the build that a pro can metagame against, especially since this type of play is really easy to scout (earlier hatch, no gas at all, etc.) DT rush game 1 phoenix rush game 2 against this in a BO3 and the player using this strat is out. | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
On April 16 2011 04:44 tehemperorer wrote: If a pro is criticizing this build, it's because it is easy to find weaknesses with the build that a pro can metagame against, especially since this type of play is really easy to scout (earlier hatch, no gas at all, etc.) DT rush game 1 phoenix rush game 2 against this in a BO3 and the player using this strat is out. Actually its not easy to scout because of the early spine crawler at the natural and more queens... And just because something doesn't make great sense on paper doesn't mean it wont make sense in game. If pro's play with this build they may find ways to improve it. | ||
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adeezy
United States1428 Posts
On April 16 2011 04:44 tehemperorer wrote: If a pro is criticizing this build, it's because it is easy to find weaknesses with the build that a pro can metagame against, especially since this type of play is really easy to scout (earlier hatch, no gas at all, etc.) DT rush game 1 phoenix rush game 2 against this in a BO3 and the player using this strat is out. Well that's the thing, if you watched the Daily spanishiwa talked about how phoenix and dt rush is easily deflected by a smart response. He said it's mainly vulnerable to early cheese but as long as he can scout it he can respond as normal. Here's a criticism from lalush I thought I was taking my gas late at 25~ish in ZvT (with lots of variations depending on what is scouted). I can see this working ZvZ vs 14gas 13/14pool, because it's basically how dimaga has been playing for months. But in the other matchups... no... only if you're playing on the US server, where people compete to invent the most stupid strategies. I don't doubt that it might work perfectly in certain situations. But it won't be stable. Especially vs people feigning pressure and denying information. I don't know, after seeing his matches against Destiny who is an equally good zerg I can see more of its viability. I hope more pros use it and that we see other kinks and tweaks that make it better than it already is, plus it's very entertaining to watch | ||
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flanksteak
Canada246 Posts
On April 15 2011 21:25 vojnik wrote: wow just wow at this game :D Pretty much a nightmare scenario for this build. Had to defend a 4gate with limited units (on his highground) and then DTs. I think most of us would've died there, lol. | ||
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Holliday
Germany30 Posts
 , so this will probably help me alot. Also find it easier to get faster upgrades and more than 3-4 bases... Thankyou Spanishiwa my fav build was one from Morrow, but this has truped that build by far, keep up the work | ||
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HTODethklok
United States221 Posts
On April 16 2011 04:44 tehemperorer wrote: If a pro is criticizing this build, it's because it is easy to find weaknesses with the build that a pro can metagame against, especially since this type of play is really easy to scout (earlier hatch, no gas at all, etc.) DT rush game 1 phoenix rush game 2 against this in a BO3 and the player using this strat is out. How fast do you think you can get DTs to your opponents base? From what ive seen 7:30-8:00 is pretty standard for a DT rush which will give the zerg enough time to get an evo chamber up and have their lair started. If you have to block your ramp with queens and transfer the drones in your nat to your main until you have detectors up using transfuse to keep your queens alive. After that toss will be so far behind its basically a free win. Phoenix rush is easily countered with mass queens. Any rush can easily be countered with scouting the examples I gave are worst case scenarios if your dark shrine is scouted evo chambers can be up well before the first DT ever makes it to your base. Watch the Day9 Daily on this strat he addresses these possible rushes in the vod along with a few others. | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On April 16 2011 04:29 adeezy wrote: To the pros criticizing this build: try it before you criticize it. It's easy to point out and find weaknesses without actually using it. I did not play exactly like this, but in a similar fashion in beta and early after release. i dismissed the heavy investing in slow/static defense for the reasons i have pointed out in this thread already. I actually still used something like this until not too long ago in ZvZ (probably my worst matchup back then), but after improving in ZvZ it turned out that it is in fact not very good. As i have already said once or twice, I dont doubt you can win games with this build, and for lower league players its probably alot easier to use this build than one where you need alot more experience. Yet i still think that this build is not particularly good against a very good player, as the super late gas is a pretty big giveaway. and no, the spine crawler does not prevent scouting that, as the opponent only needs to see whether you take gas before the zerglings finish. | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On April 16 2011 04:29 adeezy wrote: To the pros criticizing this build: try it before you criticize it. It's easy to point out and find weaknesses without actually using it. Darkforce responded really politely, but I don't think he should. When people like him or Lalush post you should be thankful. This sort of attitude pisses me off and nobody wants people like you in these forums. I have no idea where you'd get the idea that you'd know better than those two players in order to say this sort of thing. | ||
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adeezy
United States1428 Posts
http://www.justin.tv/spanishiwa/b/283422826 As much as your criticisms do point out the holes in the strategy quite correctly, the games I've watched haven't quite capatilized on them so I don't see them quite play out as you say they would. Plus after listening to him talk about how he responds to some of those counters you mentioned in the day9 daily makes me think it's a lot stronger and stable than you say it is, and not just a "win a few games with this build" kind of thing. Just to say I'm not challenging your post darkforce and I'm sorry about my previous statement (about pros not trying it). Just trying to understand this build more | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On April 16 2011 05:15 SC2-Dethklok wrote: How fast do you think you can get DTs to your opponents base? From what ive seen 7:30-8:00 is pretty standard for a DT rush which will give the zerg enough time to get an evo chamber up and have their lair started. If you have to block your ramp with queens and transfer the drones in your nat to your main until you have detectors up using transfuse to keep your queens alive. After that toss will be so far behind its basically a free win. Phoenix rush is easily countered with mass queens. Any rush can easily be countered with scouting the examples I gave are worst case scenarios if your dark shrine is scouted evo chambers can be up well before the first DT ever makes it to your base. Watch the Day9 Daily on this strat he addresses these possible rushes in the vod along with a few others. DT expand: DTs warped in at 6:47, but I waited to push out scouting OL so they can actually come 10-20 seconds earlier. http://www.justin.tv/tehemperorer/b/282571439 I've been telling people I talk with to open this build against Spanishiwa looking strats since at 23 you will have scouted the Zerg and can either opt for phoenixes if DTs look like a bad idea. DTs warped in at a forward pylon at 9:00 into the video if you want to jump straight to it. It's all because of the lack of extractors mostly, which is the biggest indication that the Zerg player doesn't have detection (why would you build evo chamber if you didn't have the gas to upgrade?) | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On April 16 2011 05:27 adeezy wrote: I can see the point you are making as completely valid and I don't really have a counter argument. But I just watched a series on his stream vs root destiny in which he wins 2/3 using the same exact style every time, so I'm sure destiny didn't have to scout. http://www.justin.tv/spanishiwa/b/283422826 As much as your criticisms do point out the holes in the strategy quite correctly, the games I've watched haven't quite capatilized on them so I don't see them quite play out as you say they would. Plus after listening to him talk about how he responds to some of those counters you mentioned in the day9 daily makes me think it's a lot stronger and stable than you say it is, and not just a "win a few games with this build" kind of thing. Im going to quote myself: On April 16 2011 05:16 DarKFoRcE wrote: Yet i still think that this build is not particularly good against a very good player Destiny does not fall in this category in my opinion. I know that people like to watch his unorthodox play, but when you look at TLPD (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players/2765_Destiny) you will notice that he has had zero success in tourneys. I have offered this earlier in this thread, and i will offer it again: Message me on EU and maybe i can prove you why this is not as good as you think. Depending on how good you are i can also play terran. | ||
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adeezy
United States1428 Posts
And about destiny... well I might have to agree with you there lol. Well there is about to be a rootminigun and spanishiwa show match so hopefully I can see what you are talking about in action | ||
Liquid`Sheth
United States2095 Posts
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
Z goes hatch first P/T/Z goes cannon rush, bunker rush, 8pool,... "its not safe anymore to go hatch first" Z goes speedling expand P/T goes 2 rax expand, 3 gate expand "You need to grap a quick 3rd" Z graps a quick 3rd P/T gets greedier, maps get bigger Z goes hatch first again while its not the easiest or safest build around, it works... for now. After a few weeks (given the popularity of the build) ppl will start cannonrushing again and do everything to prevent hatch first. The build will die again until T/P get yet again extremely greedy and cant punish a hatch first. Then another hatch first build will emerge to "reset" the metagame again. Being critical is great but i d like to see more than "it has weaknesses" or "a good player can beat it". Why not being more specific? I have offered this earlier in this thread, and i will offer it again: Message me on EU and maybe i can prove you why this is not as good as you think. Depending on how good you are i can also play terran. We can do that the other way round. I open with your build and you are going for a build which you normally would obliterate with your opening. You would still win. Your mechanics, handspeed, macro, micro is far superior... so what did it prove? | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On April 16 2011 06:35 Charon1979 wrote: while its not the easiest or safest build around, it works... for now. After a few weeks (given the popularity of the build) ppl will start cannonrushing again and do everything to prevent hatch first. The build will die again until T/P get yet again extremely greedy and cant punish a hatch first. Then another hatch first build will emerge to "reset" the metagame again. Being critical is great but i d like to see more than "it has weaknesses" or "a good player can beat it". Why not being more specific? We can do that the other way round. I open with your build and you are going for a build which you normally would obliterate with your opening. You would still win. Your mechanics, handspeed, macro, micro is far superior... so what did it prove? Of course i wouldnt play against some diamond player.. but maybe some mid masters player could compete with my terran. | ||
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HTODethklok
United States221 Posts
On April 16 2011 05:29 tehemperorer wrote: DT expand: DTs warped in at 6:47, but I waited to push out scouting OL so they can actually come 10-20 seconds earlier. http://www.justin.tv/tehemperorer/b/282571439 I've been telling people I talk with to open this build against Spanishiwa looking strats since at 23 you will have scouted the Zerg and can either opt for phoenixes if DTs look like a bad idea. DTs warped in at a forward pylon at 9:00 into the video if you want to jump straight to it. It's all because of the lack of extractors mostly, which is the biggest indication that the Zerg player doesn't have detection (why would you build evo chamber if you didn't have the gas to upgrade?) You get evo chambers right around the same time you start your lair if not a little before so that you can immediately start upgrades once you take your 4 gas geysers and your gas income starts to take off. at around 6:30 game time you should hit 40 food and thats when you take your 4 geysers with a lair on its way with your first 100 gas. IMO it sounds like your DT rush has the potential to do some damage if it goes un scouted but its going to be limited as detection should be available to the zerg player shortly after DTs arrive and again youd use queens to keep the DTs out of your main and transfer your workers in your nat to your main until the DTs are gone. | ||
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Wonzter
Sweden4 Posts
Until I watched the Day[9] daily when he featured you on friendsday wednesday and man I was impressed :D Tried it a couple of times and it's just really fun to play and actually incredibly efficent. Thank you so much for sharing this! | ||
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