|
On April 16 2011 05:43 Sheth wrote:
I agree with darkforce, any critiscm of him should fall on me as well. While it has benefits, it has a lot of weaknesses.
Also agreed.
Once again, it can catch people offguard but I don't think it will become widely used (op even posted a replay of me losing to it, although I thought he was cheesing me...). If you sit down and actually think about how to counter it you can do pretty well. The build has a late lair (detection), immobile defense, no way to scout/take any map control. Not a bad build per se but not going to radically change the game.
|
On April 16 2011 08:55 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 05:43 Sheth wrote:
I agree with darkforce, any critiscm of him should fall on me as well. While it has benefits, it has a lot of weaknesses. Also agreed. Once again, it can catch people offguard but I don't think it will become widely used (op even posted a replay of me losing to it, although I thought he was cheesing me...). If you sit down and actually think about how to counter it you can do pretty well. The build has a late lair (detection), immobile defense, no way to scout/take any map control. Not a bad build per se but not going to radically change the game.
I see this build as a zerg's version of toss's forge fast-expand. Just more economical and defensive in the early game compared to the standard zerg fast-expand.
You guys criticize it for having flaws and obvious counters to it but just about any build has those. Of course, any build is vulnerable to cheese if you don't scout. The build is pretty young and i think it has room to grow.
|
Spanishiwa seems to be doing pretty well with it against minigun so far on the V showmatch series. Is mini just not reacting well to it?
|
Let me tell you from experience that 4 Queens stops pretty much any pre-Stim Bio push that's not a 1 base all in. Godamn those Queens wtf.
|
I want to say that I love this build, it's so refreshing compared to the overused roach/Hydra play.
I haven't tried it in 1v1s yet as I'm not very strong with it yet, It takes a lot of skill to pull it off. However, this is also a good build for 2v2s!
I've been doing it in 2v2 randoms and it works quite well. I've even found that skipping gas until around 50 and just getting 6-9 spines in front of your natural works very well (of course continuing the queen and creep build up). One thing is if you delay your gas even more you need that evo chamber for the spores, as air is quite common in 2v2 (quick voidrays/phoenix/mutas/etc).
Keep up the great work Spanishiwa! I love your stream and this build rocks!
|
On April 16 2011 05:16 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 04:29 adeezy wrote:
To the pros criticizing this build: try it before you criticize it. It's easy to point out and find weaknesses without actually using it. I did not play exactly like this, but in a similar fashion in beta and early after release. i dismissed the heavy investing in slow/static defense for the reasons i have pointed out in this thread already. I actually still used something like this until not too long ago in ZvZ (probably my worst matchup back then), but after improving in ZvZ it turned out that it is in fact not very good. As i have already said once or twice, I dont doubt you can win games with this build, and for lower league players its probably alot easier to use this build than one where you need alot more experience. Yet i still think that this build is not particularly good against a very good player, as the super late gas is a pretty big giveaway. and no, the spine crawler does not prevent scouting that, as the opponent only needs to see whether you take gas before the zerglings finish.
On April 16 2011 05:43 Sheth wrote:
I agree with darkforce, any critiscm of him should fall on me as well. While it has benefits, it has a lot of weaknesses.
wait what you guys?
i was just like you in the beginning i was skeptical. but ive been using it for a while now to great success :D (16-10 in GML)
tnx for this awesome playstyle spanishiwa and keep up the good work, love your passion
darkforce dont be too critical about these players, give them a few months and im sure destiny, spanishiwa and these players will prove themselves
|
I like players like Morrow who can try any build before throwing stupid judgements based on the fact those builds are made by what they would call newbies.
Darkforce you know you dont have to win any major tournaments to create a BO or a strat that could work on sc2 ? you lost by playing passive standard play vs Cruncher in NASL so u should think about exploring Spanishiwa BO maybe?
|
Not sure if this needs spoilers, but...
+ Show Spoiler +Spanishiwa just beat Minigun 4-3 on the "V," winning four of the five games where he used his patented build, against two 4-gates, a 3-gate expo, and a DT-rush. He lost to a six gate, plus to some other builds in games where he played standard. I'd say that's a pretty good showing for this build.
|
On April 16 2011 09:29 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 05:16 DarKFoRcE wrote:On April 16 2011 04:29 adeezy wrote:
To the pros criticizing this build: try it before you criticize it. It's easy to point out and find weaknesses without actually using it. I did not play exactly like this, but in a similar fashion in beta and early after release. i dismissed the heavy investing in slow/static defense for the reasons i have pointed out in this thread already. I actually still used something like this until not too long ago in ZvZ (probably my worst matchup back then), but after improving in ZvZ it turned out that it is in fact not very good. As i have already said once or twice, I dont doubt you can win games with this build, and for lower league players its probably alot easier to use this build than one where you need alot more experience. Yet i still think that this build is not particularly good against a very good player, as the super late gas is a pretty big giveaway. and no, the spine crawler does not prevent scouting that, as the opponent only needs to see whether you take gas before the zerglings finish. Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 05:43 Sheth wrote:
I agree with darkforce, any critiscm of him should fall on me as well. While it has benefits, it has a lot of weaknesses. wait what you guys? i was just like you in the beginning i was skeptical. but ive been using it for a while now to great success :D (16-10 in GML) tnx for this awesome playstyle spanishiwa and keep up the good work, love your passion darkforce dont be too critical about these players, give them a few months and im sure destiny, spanishiwa and these players will prove themselves
THANK YOU morrow! I'm glad theres another pro player actually giving it a chance and above all one of my favorite zergs.
|
haha niceeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
thanks man
|
Having seen Spanishiwa play, this build seems to have a lot of potential. And it's very entertaining to watch, too.
If it becomes popular, Protoss might finally have a good reason to go carriers : )
Which would be even more entertaining.
|
he has a double spire +upgrades build...carriers??? do not think so
|
Anyone who just watched The V saw how strong this build can be. Minigun knew each game that Spanishiwa wanted to do this build and he still ended up winning the series.
|
On April 16 2011 09:01 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 08:55 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:On April 16 2011 05:43 Sheth wrote:
I agree with darkforce, any critiscm of him should fall on me as well. While it has benefits, it has a lot of weaknesses. Also agreed. Once again, it can catch people offguard but I don't think it will become widely used (op even posted a replay of me losing to it, although I thought he was cheesing me...). If you sit down and actually think about how to counter it you can do pretty well. The build has a late lair (detection), immobile defense, no way to scout/take any map control. Not a bad build per se but not going to radically change the game. I see this build as a zerg's version of toss's forge fast-expand. Just more economical and defensive in the early game compared to the standard zerg fast-expand. You guys criticize it for having flaws and obvious counters to it but just about any build has those. Of course, any build is vulnerable to cheese if you don't scout. The build is pretty young and i think it has room to grow.
This is great I've never thought about it as Zerg's version of a Forge FE but it really is. You give up some early game map control/scouting for solid defense and a great economy. I agree with most of the Pros in this thread that it won't "revolutionize" the Zerg metagame but it's definitely a viable build and something besides 14/14 or standard Hatch first for Zergs to do. Frankly, with just those two builds (discounting cheese) Zerg play had become pretty predictable. While this is a Hatch first style, the proper response to it is completely different than Hatch first with gas.
I'm glad to see so many pros posting in here, especially MorroW saying he's having a lot of success with it. A really fun build for sure and it's transformed my ZvZ and ZvP on maps where I can block my ramp.
|
On April 16 2011 10:06 archflames wrote:
he has a double spire +upgrades build...carriers??? do not think so
Oh, I'm sure he's got many kinds of builds !
Now, I'm not saying carrier tech would be an automatic win. And I'm not saying one should rush to carriers either.
From what I've seen, the strenght of Spanishiwa's build is that it won't let you take a viable third as Protoss, because of the constant harrassment and extreme mobility of the army. On the other hand, it lets you do pretty much as you please in the first few stages of the game. Lings+banelings are easily held off with a few gateway units, until drops and nydus worms come into play. So you have time to comfortably make the army you wish for.
But then, all the Protoss needs is an effective way to turtle, i.e. to defend against the lings, banelings, drops and nyduses that will be thrown at him, while securing the 3 or 4 bases required to build up his death ball. That's where a few carriers would really shine. They'll kill everything before it can even reach the probe line ! They have crazy dps, huge range, plus they are completely immune to lings, banelings and ultras : P
The best thing is, they don't even have to leave the Protoss base!
If the Zerg does the double spire thing, well, just build canons and stalkers to protect the carriers. But anyway that means the Zerg won't have nearly as much stuff to harrass with.
So, patiently take 3-4 bases with carrier support. Move out. And win.
|
On April 16 2011 08:55 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 05:43 Sheth wrote:
I agree with darkforce, any critiscm of him should fall on me as well. While it has benefits, it has a lot of weaknesses. Also agreed. Once again, it can catch people offguard but I don't think it will become widely used (op even posted a replay of me losing to it, although I thought he was cheesing me...). If you sit down and actually think about how to counter it you can do pretty well. The build has a late lair (detection), immobile defense, no way to scout/take any map control. Not a bad build per se but not going to radically change the game. Honestly, if it stays as popular as it is right now and people start using it more, it's already done a huge job. Just knowing that there's another option, another valid build added to the (as of now limited) arsenal of Zerg players... that's a good thing already.
I'm also excited to see what someone like Morrow can make with this foundation. Refinement incoming!
|
I don't agree with a lot of darkforce's criticism. The main one being "You have no map control".
Ok, with speedlings you have map control. But exactly what usage you make of it ? Talking about ZvP here. Yes, speed build gives more map control than no gaz build. But if this map control doesn't give you any concrete advantage, if you don't use it, what's the point ? And in most standard ZvP games, I don't see any concrete usage of this map control, as you just macro up to 200/200.
I know it's not a miraculous solves all build, but I feel lot of the arguments used against the build are very theorycraft-esque.
|
If one thing I noticed about the build is that after defending the intial push with speedlings he uses the speedlings to gain map control, and then by this time he also has nyduses(he usually pops more than one), to continue his map control.
Check out the minigun series if you guys haven't, he pretty much used the build all times he couldnt. Pylon blocking is a pretty good way of stopping this build followed by some gate pressure seemed the best way to counter it, however if the zerg can stop that he continues with his advantage.
|
|
|
I noticed in the OP, and in some of Spanishiwa's responses, that he suggest 2 workers per mineral patch as "saturation." I was under the assumption that it was 3 workers - is it just 2 workers during the heavy initial droning phase and then max'ing up to 3 per mineral patch later on? Or is a fully saturated bases 20 drones (3 per gas, 2 per mineral)?
I did a quick ctrl-f to see if I saw anyone mention this but I didn't see any mention.  Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
