I've used this exclusively against protoss, and it really shines because it allows me to hold off early pressure without making roaches, which are really expensive in terms of opportunity costs (1 drone to make extractor, one drone to make the roach warren, 3 drones to mine gas that aren't mining minerals, roaches that could be drones, etc.) while still being able to drone hard. It transitions well into just about everything and has really helped out my ZvP game.

Even if nothing about this build is unique, it has CLEARLY helped me in my play and feels so much smoother than what I was doing before. Thanks Spanishiwa!

/end informerical interview tone

ALittleLuk

United States13 Posts

April 14 2011 23:48 GMT

#463

This has helped my ZvT so much, makes it feel like I'm playing a game instead of being punished for picking zerg. ;D Thank you a lot sir, I can tell your going to do very well in your SC2 future!
Thanks again!!!

Mithrandir

United States99 Posts

April 15 2011 00:18 GMT

#464

On April 14 2011 12:53 Kogut wrote:
DarkForce, why you no win NASL? Perhaps you could have used some Spanishiwa flare!

Looking forward to seeing this build on the D9D.

DarkForce,

I saw this guy's post and thought it was extremely rude. There seem to be a whole lot of ignorant people who think they know better than you. A good example of the Dunning Kruger effect.

Some of us are very grateful that you take the time to critique and give your thoughts on strategy, as you are the highest level zerg I can think of who bothers to do so. Please don't stop.

That is all.

CiscoKid

Canada20 Posts

April 15 2011 01:02 GMT

#465

On April 15 2011 09:18 Mithrandir wrote:

Show nested quote +

DarkForce,

I saw this guy's post and thought it was extremely rude. There seem to be a whole lot of ignorant people who think they know better than you. A good example of the Dunning Kruger effect.

Some of us are very grateful to that you take the time to critique and give your thoughts on strategy, as you are the highest level zerg I can think of who bothers to do so. Please don't stop.

That is all.

It's funny when people think an opening is the end all be all of a matchup... there is a lot more going for this game then that. if you could win 100% of games with a tricky opening or a specific build then this game would be broken. Not to mention you kind of cheapen the victory of who DarkForce played by saying that too...

and yeah DarkForce is such a huge contributor to this forum lets try not to piss him please lol

AngryBear

United States32 Posts

April 15 2011 01:38 GMT

#466

This is directed more towards Spainishiwa, but anyone else feel free to chime in

:

When do you take your 3rd? I've been taking mine around 12 minutes right after I switch into my offensive push out (usually Roach/Corruptor). I've also been experimenting with a double expand (on bigger maps) around 14 minutes or right after I hold their second push.

CiscoKid

Canada20 Posts

April 15 2011 01:50 GMT

#467

and yeah i really like this opening... really makes sense as you can fend off most early cheese with no gas at all, did this today and loved it, good job!

Bauldur

United States24 Posts

April 15 2011 03:40 GMT

#468

Spanishiwa, you mentioned in the Day9 daily that this build suffers from certain types of cheeses, however im more curious about midgame vs fast expands...does this build put you way ahead of a normal fast expand or is it just simply a safer more efficient way to do it? Since the opposing player has a much harder time harassing against this build, I assume that their best choice against it would be to FE against the zerg if this is seen (albeit that would probably have to be the decision made before scouting it but im just having a really hard time understanding how to compete against this build.)

C.N.Presents

United States8 Posts

April 15 2011 03:59 GMT

#469

I've been trying to learn this build religiously, but for some reason I simply can't pull it off. I think I lost like 12 matches in a row because of this (vs Terran and Toss).

I can never be ready for 3rax stim timing pushes, or any protoss push.

And I'm trying to switch back to my old playstyle and for some reason my brain is disregarding gas until very late all over again.

I'm not blaming this build in anyway, as it seems (and is shown) to be very effective vs early pressure, but early pressure is what's destroying me when using this build, ironically. If I can make it to mid game then I usually win.

EscPlan9

United States2777 Posts

April 15 2011 04:08 GMT

#470

On April 15 2011 12:59 C.N.Presents wrote:
I've been trying to learn this build religiously, but for some reason I simply can't pull it off. I think I lost like 12 matches in a row because of this (vs Terran and Toss).

I can never be ready for 3rax stim timing pushes, or any protoss push.

And I'm trying to switch back to my old playstyle and for some reason my brain is disregarding gas until very late all over again.

I'm not blaming this build in anyway, as it seems (and is shown) to be very effective vs early pressure, but early pressure is what's destroying me when using this build, ironically. If I can make it to mid game then I usually win.

Review Spanishiwa's replays and yours. Note the timings when early pressure happens, note what Spanishiwa had, what you had, and how you defended compared to Spanishiwa. There's plenty of replays here to help you out.

Chinesewonder

Canada354 Posts

April 15 2011 04:15 GMT

#471

Thanks. Subbed

DisaFear

Australia4074 Posts

April 15 2011 09:06 GMT

#472

Just saw this build in use against CrunCher on Psy's Channel.
I don't even know what i just watched, was it porn or starcraft? Amazingly bizzaringly amazing build

DImported

Australia149 Posts

April 15 2011 09:17 GMT

#473

I've been using this with quite a bit of success in my ZvZs. Thank you,

Summerfield

Sweden88 Posts

April 15 2011 11:22 GMT

#474

I am currently platinum and have just recently begun to use this build and at first I lost like five or six matches in a row because I didn't have the timings right and continued to make mistakes. However, as I get used to it more and more it gets increasingly more effective. I am nowhere near to get this build to work beyond the 50+ food limit and still make plenty of mistakes before 50 food, but because this is such a eco based defensive strategy I have no problems holding 4 gates and often spot probes or pylons in time because of effective creep spread. When I see the 4 gate I often have like 30+ drones with two or three spine crawlers, 4 queens and a couple of lings and my minerals is often up to 500+ which allows me to make lings quick to defend. I am astounded how easy it is to control the Toss movement because of the spines and totally annihilate stalkers, sentries and zealots with lings and queens. This build is really, really effective and has helped me a lot against some of the more aggressive toss strategies that usually killed me before.

DarKcS

Australia1237 Posts

April 15 2011 11:51 GMT

#475

Funny when I get fast 3 gated, forgot my spawning pool till 17 food (delayed by like 150 minerals worth of drones - a long time) - yet I still held it. Spine placement is important though, really gotta pre-place them for a flank on your expo mineral line or else :<

vojnik

Macedonia923 Posts

April 15 2011 12:25 GMT

#476

wow just wow at this game :D

hpTheGreat

United States173 Posts

April 15 2011 13:21 GMT

#477

Hey, first of all thanks for posting this.
I've been using this against toss and its workign out very well.
I do lose to late early-game / early mid-game aggression right before my gas units/upgrades kick in. I am trying to figure out how to stay alive during that timing window.

Also, I am having issues with not droning enough and find my self running low on minerals by the time i take my 4th. This style allows you to be very aggressive with drops and infestor harass that I have less time to focus on my macro. It is a pleasant change of pace.

Im gonna watch some of those zvt's and see how you handle that.
thanks again

Steamboatlol

United States161 Posts

April 15 2011 14:07 GMT

#478

Wow, blown away by the raw earlymid/mid game potential of this build. It's kinda reminiscent of fruit dealer's style where you explode with tech only instead of using mutas to get there you're using just solid economic management and much less costly ling/bane harass so it comes a lot faster and a lot safer. Here's to hoping it becomes a trend.

champy

Sweden33 Posts

April 15 2011 17:33 GMT

#479

This is so exciting, I've had this sinking feeling when I see both terran and protoss beeing able to set up a better economy than zerg, but with this build you really get the benefit of an exponential economy. Each larva up until 30-40 supply is worth its weight in gold and I can hardly finish this sentence because I tried it out and it is completely awesome. Early economy leads gives you so much freedom later on, you can pretty much build any tech building and use scouting to abuse any and every weakness. It gives you a completely new range of options, its like going from

"Uh-oh, I haven't scouted in 30 seconds, I have to sacrifice an ovie and half my zerglings to get a picture of what I'm going to die to"

to

"LOL my economy is ridiculous! He can't even get a third! Ok, so which unit do I feel like finishing him off with?"