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On April 13 2011 01:36 EvilZergling wrote:
I like the build and I've been doing it for a while before it became popular but my method of execution is different getting the gas a bit earlier around 32-36 supply and getting 2 to start then adding the other 2 after I replace the drones I took off the mineral line.
This.
I have found just the same ... getting a couple of gases just a little earlier allows an earlier ling speed. This doesn't seem like much but in my experience it makes it fast enough to kill off a fair few terran pushes as well as punishing (not stopping, but making sure they can't transition out of) a non all-in 4 gate.
The ability to hit toss with a very fast counter after the 4 gate fails is nice, they end up losing at the very least the stalker/sentry army and sometimes they take damage to their expand.
Obviously if they fast expand it is unnecessary and the 4 gas at 40+ is fine, this is just nice against 1 base builds.
Not sure how it times out with reapers.
Edit:
The other option is just to throw down a roach warren against T, roaches could come out much faster than zergling speed in a pinch ... the gas at 32 means roaches are a solid option less than a minute later (as long as the warren gets up in time).
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With this build I can get a maxed army with upgraded infestors, 2-2 upgrades, ovie speed+drop and hive on the way by 17:30 game minutes. I could see better players reaching that point at 16:45 if they used a cleaner build than I did. Only problem is how passive it is for such a long time.
The last game I played with this build, I dropped a ton of roaches on my opponent's production facilities (and basically sacrificed them), remaxed, and pushed the front.
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I think this build is CRAZYY! Getting lots of queens early on can defend you from any early pressure, but they also set you up for a fast tier 3. By the time you get ultras or broodlords out, your queens will have full energy for lots of transfuses! (similar to how protoss gets lots of sentries early to charge energy) You would want to defend and spread creep while teching to t3 asap, the moment ultras or broodlords are out, you push. The queens also serve as an amazing anti air unit. If you have good transfuse micro, the ultra/queen or broodlords/queen will be almost unstoppable. Learning from Spanishwa's replays, nydus worms and queens work really well together also. You can plop one in the middle and get all your queens there and put a few tumors. Now you have a forward base and can retreat/reinforce instantly! Also, once the opponent decides to make the right counters, you can tech switch incredibly easily
This is a build where you don't need to scout and adapt as a Zerg. You just decide to go for ultras or broodlords/queen and there is nothing the opponent can do to stop you 
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On April 13 2011 09:08 LoLAdriankat wrote:
With this build I can get a maxed army with upgraded infestors, 2-2 upgrades, ovie speed+drop and hive on the way by 17:30 game minutes. I could see better players reaching that point at 16:45 if they used a cleaner build than I did. Only problem is how passive it is for such a long time.
The last game I played with this build, I dropped a ton of roaches on my opponent's production facilities (and basically sacrificed them), remaxed, and pushed the front.
Would someone like yourself possibly encode/record a YABOT build of yourself doing this timing?
I'd love to be able to practice this a bit ...
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Amazing build works like a charm :D
only have trouble with ZvZ hardcore zerglings
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this builds awesome, spanishwa
I'd like to know if you guys, do this strat in some maps like delta quadrant or scrap vs zerg? or do you go other ways.
I'm finding some difficulties in zvp never used banes drop before, but i'm trying
some tips?
and I thought it was harder vs ling+1 all in either. maybe getting some banes earlier, should work
ty, cya
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On April 14 2011 00:42 vudulp wrote:
this builds awesome, spanishwa
I'd like to know if you guys, do this strat in some maps like delta quadrant or scrap vs zerg? or do you go other ways.
I'm finding some difficulties in zvp never used banes drop before, but i'm trying
some tips?
ty
I honestly know 5 zergs total who don't downvote Delta. As for Scrap I believe he mentioned that it's almost impossible to hold on scrap as the expansion and the main can't be defended with the spines effectively. which seems to be the case.
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This strategy is so strong in midgame, which is perfect for Zergs. I've been having problems trying this build, due to my poor macro abilities, but I think it's brilliant. Well-done.
As for ZvZ mass lings, wouldn't an Evo block and Queen block help funnel the Lings into your Spines' attack range? Also, you could throw down an earlier gas to get some Banelings and force the aggressor Zerg to back off. I tend to just get 100 gas for Ling speed and defend accordingly.
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How do you react if T counter with a greedy fast expo? This is a build designed to defend early and attack @ midgame but what if T basically bunker + FEs and transitions into strong mech...
my 2 cents
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On April 14 2011 03:14 ilovelings wrote:
How do you react if T counter with a greedy fast expo? This is a build designed to defend early and attack @ midgame but what if T basically bunker + FEs and transitions into strong mech...
my 2 cents
I'm also interested in the OP's thoughts re. punishing greedy responses. I've had some success with a switch to mass ling (they aren't speedlings, but holy shit can you make a lot of them) but I'm not playing at a level where success means anything.
Edit: I suspect the right answer is to take a fast third, since your mineral-only drone-heavy opening is the perfect set-up for that.
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On April 13 2011 09:08 LoLAdriankat wrote:
With this build I can get a maxed army with upgraded infestors, 2-2 upgrades, ovie speed+drop and hive on the way by 17:30 game minutes. I could see better players reaching that point at 16:45 if they used a cleaner build than I did. Only problem is how passive it is for such a long time.
The last game I played with this build, I dropped a ton of roaches on my opponent's production facilities (and basically sacrificed them), remaxed, and pushed the front.
I also advocate the super-late gas but as an interesting note to this, Sheth PWND artosis last night with 14gas13pool and was maxed at 13 mins, ultras by 15-16 and at constant upgrades.
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[/QUOTE]
I also advocate the super-late gas but as an interesting note to this, Sheth PWND artosis last night with 14gas13pool and was maxed at 13 mins, ultras by 15-16 and at constant upgrades.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that was pretty brutal. Nothing against Artosis, but I would like to see Sheth try that build against someone like KiWiKaKi.
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On April 14 2011 03:26 CookieMaker wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 09:08 LoLAdriankat wrote:
With this build I can get a maxed army with upgraded infestors, 2-2 upgrades, ovie speed+drop and hive on the way by 17:30 game minutes. I could see better players reaching that point at 16:45 if they used a cleaner build than I did. Only problem is how passive it is for such a long time.
The last game I played with this build, I dropped a ton of roaches on my opponent's production facilities (and basically sacrificed them), remaxed, and pushed the front. I also advocate the super-late gas but as an interesting note to this, Sheth PWND artosis last night with 14gas13pool and was maxed at 13 mins, ultras by 15-16 and at constant upgrades.
True true. However, Sheth was exploiting Artosis's passiveness (He didn't attack Sheth's base once the whole set) and managed to get 93 drones. In my game, I was defending against constant blue flame hellion aggression. Making spine crawlers+roaches adds minutes to getting to such an economy.
The Spanishiwa build is designed to fend off early attacks and come out with a big enough economic advantage to make a game deciding attack while Sheth's plan was to drone really hard as long as his opponent is playing passively (fast expanding, etc.). There's sort of a metagaming factor in this argument.
Not sure how the Spanishiwa build would do against greedy openings.
@YABOT post: I'll do it if I remember later today. I'm at school right now on my netbook.
edit
fixed wording
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On April 14 2011 03:40 LoLAdriankat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 03:26 CookieMaker wrote:On April 13 2011 09:08 LoLAdriankat wrote:
With this build I can get a maxed army with upgraded infestors, 2-2 upgrades, ovie speed+drop and hive on the way by 17:30 game minutes. I could see better players reaching that point at 16:45 if they used a cleaner build than I did. Only problem is how passive it is for such a long time.
The last game I played with this build, I dropped a ton of roaches on my opponent's production facilities (and basically sacrificed them), remaxed, and pushed the front. I also advocate the super-late gas but as an interesting note to this, Sheth PWND artosis last night with 14gas13pool and was maxed at 13 mins, ultras by 15-16 and at constant upgrades. True true. However, Sheth was exploiting Artosis's passiveness (He didn't attack Sheth's base once the whole set) and managed to get 93 drones. In my game, I was defending against constant blue flame hellion aggression. Making spine crawlers+roaches takes minutes off of being able to get to such an economy. The Spanishiwa build is designed to fend off early attacks and come out with a big enough economic advantage to make a game deciding attack while Sheth's plan was to drone really hard as long as his opponent is playing passively (fast expanding, etc.). There's sort of a metagaming factor in this argument. Not sure how the Spanishiwa build would do against greedy openings. @YABOT post: I'll do it if I remember later today. I'm at school right now on my netbook.
If I scout this I would start expanding and making a solid upgraded marine/tank/viking + missile turrets 
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On April 14 2011 03:40 LoLAdriankat wrote:
@YABOT post: I'll do it if I remember later today. I'm at school right now on my netbook.
edit
fixed wording
That'd be awesome thanks.
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Awesome guide Spanishiwa. I have one question about potential followups vs Protoss:
I understand the point of moving to drop tech+blings is to keep ahead of toss econ by dropping his mineral line. For those of us with less than godly unit control/drop micro is it possible transition to good old muta-ling and use the initial mutas to keep toss pinned in his base while teching? Or is the delayed gas simply too much to enable such a transition to do real damage?
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Unsure if you mentioned this earlier in the thread, but what do you do in ZvZ against a +1 Speedling all-in? As someone who uses this build almost all the time in every matchup, I usually transition to +1 Speedling all-in instead if I see the signs my opponent is doing the Ice Fisher build. It can be difficult to scout for with slowlings and unless you blindly get Banes (not even sure if you can get them fast enough with gas on 40) the +1 Speedling all-in dominates Spines/Queens/Slowlings, pretty much everything.
Anyone else encountered this a bunch?
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@ Shadrak - In high diamond and low masters I've been going a pure roach build with a safety Hydra den as I get to their base, the timing works out so that if they are going heavy void I can counter with roaches and pull out some easy wins while defending with queens and sometimes a few hydras, if they go anything else burrow + tunneling claws can cause ridiculous amount of damage while I take a relatively safe third.
I have a 99% win rate with it as long as I dont die to something stupid like a 4 gate that I missmicro against.
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On April 14 2011 05:01 BinxyBrown wrote:
@ Shadrak - In high diamond and low masters I've been going a pure roach build with a safety Hydra den as I get to their base, the timing works out so that if they are going heavy void I can counter with roaches and pull out some easy wins while defending with queens and sometimes a few hydras, if they go anything else burrow + tunneling claws can cause ridiculous amount of damage while I take a relatively safe third.
I have a 99% win rate with it as long as I dont die to something stupid like a 4 gate that I missmicro against.
Interesting. I assume you mean mass roach as a followup to Spanishiwa's build here? So are you throwing down the Roach Warren around the time he would be putting down his bling nest and just doing roach upgrades instead of drop tech?
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This is a good build to have in your pocket, although it's tough to see it working on some maps ZvZ.
I think delaying gas is strategically the best thing you can do against reaper+bunker, after going hatch first. Oftentimes if you go 15 hatch 15 pool you won't even have lings out in time to take out the scv, so the best thing to do is delay gas, double queen, spine at natural and drone while sacrificing some drones to kill the scv(s).
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EPT
