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On April 12 2011 15:56 fallore wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 14:29 blade55555 wrote:On April 12 2011 10:27 fusihunter wrote:On April 12 2011 07:50 blade55555 wrote:On April 12 2011 06:03 brum wrote:
Your builds seem pretty interesting, although i wouldn't go anything but 14-15pool in zvz, since most zergs will <=10pool and possibly drone/spine allin. Even a 14pool can kill a 16hatch. a 14 pool kills a 16 hatch if you defend incorrectly. If you know how too defend then no a 14 hatch will not kill a 16 hatch. And scouting on 9 solves all these issues your worried about relating to hatch firsting. That's interesting. 14 pool is the pretty much the only thing i lose to in zvz. Any tips on holding it properly? PM'd you, don't want to advertise my guide I wrote on here  . i have that same trouble using span's build in zvz as well, you should post a link or at least pm it to me as well 
PM'd. If anyone needs that guide can either PM me or on teamliquid search "hatch first" and you'll see an OP made by me as one of the first to see for hatch firsting zvz for those asking that spans way doesn't work (which I think it can if you do it more dimaga style where he makes 3-5 spines and decent amount of lings then drones pumps hard and gets roaches a little later, pretty sure he doesn't gas on 40 though)
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On April 12 2011 16:39 Severedevil wrote:
Now that Reaper Speed requires a factory (which you won't have), your Reapers are no faster than slowlings off creep, which means they're quite a bit slower than slowlings + creep.
It might still be an effective opening but with proper creep spread you can do Slowling vs. Reaper.
I definitely get a factory when doing this. I like 3 rax, factory, then two more rax because after I make three rax I usually have 150/100 for the factory without needing to halt any production. You can have 6-10 reapers in their base with the speed upgrade before they have any gas. You literally cannot hold against a 5rax speed reaper without getting gas earlier and I have no doubt that anyone capable of properly executing a 5rax reaper (with a factory) would win against any zerg who doesn't get gas earlier.
People seriously underestimate how good reapers are against queens. You can fight them head on and lose very, very little. If you have 5 or 6 reapers one queen wont kill any of them even if you just a-move your reapers. The key of course is getting that critical mass. Once you hit 10 it's over for the zerg unless they went roaches (which is impossible without getting faster gas than this build traditionally gets).
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I've played a lot of customs this weekend to get familiar with the build and I found it really powerful except some cases against Protoss. As OP already wrote 3GW blink stalker is pretty deadly since it comes before the ling speed is done. I also had problems with mass stalker supported by 2-3 colossi beacuse bling drops are useless just as corruptors or roaches, and lings are melting. Any hints?
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On April 12 2011 22:01 diegorivera wrote:
I've played a lot of customs this weekend to get familiar with the build and I found it really powerful except some cases against Protoss. As OP already wrote 3GW blink stalker is pretty deadly since it comes before the ling speed is done. I also had problems with mass stalker supported by 2-3 colossi beacuse bling drops are useless just as corruptors or roaches, and lings are melting. Any hints?
I am not super familiar with the timings, but would you be able to get some 75 energy infestors by then? 4 FGs kills a stalker after all.
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On April 12 2011 23:41 Bair wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 22:01 diegorivera wrote:
I've played a lot of customs this weekend to get familiar with the build and I found it really powerful except some cases against Protoss. As OP already wrote 3GW blink stalker is pretty deadly since it comes before the ling speed is done. I also had problems with mass stalker supported by 2-3 colossi beacuse bling drops are useless just as corruptors or roaches, and lings are melting. Any hints? I am not super familiar with the timings, but would you be able to get some 75 energy infestors by then? 4 FGs kills a stalker after all.
This may work, I give it a try next time. Thanks.
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I really, REALLY enjoy this build. Once you get your gasses up, the macro explosion is enough to catch your opponent off-guard with a big army if they haven't been scouting. It also is a defensive Zerg build that transitions well into a hard aggro build, which is something that I've been playing around with personally (one base Muta into double expand).
My biggest problem that I face with this build is ZvT when they go mass marine (not marine/marauder...that is easier to hold, in my experience) (usually 3 or 4 rax). I can't seem to have enough crawlers and queens to handle the marines, and the marines come in such big numbers that slowlings aren't effective. Does anyone have any tips on this? I've thought about a small tweak to this where around 30 supply you drop two gasses and get banelings instead of slowlings, and rely on them to whittle down the marine's numbers enough where your crawlers/spines have a chance to defend. Other than that, I find that this build is extremely nasty and solid.
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Ok. Just read most of this guide, and a few posts, and I just wanted to say
THANK YOU to spanishiwa, for making me feel that zerg can really piss off terran/toss with this massively abusive econ build.
That is all.
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I faced a similar situation against a T where he went 3 rax and the marines just kept piling in.
I ended up dropping 2 gas just past 30 supply and made a baneling nest and everything worked out nicely..
Had to really micro hard while the bling nest was building though!
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On April 12 2011 17:48 rek wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 16:39 Severedevil wrote:
Now that Reaper Speed requires a factory (which you won't have), your Reapers are no faster than slowlings off creep, which means they're quite a bit slower than slowlings + creep.
It might still be an effective opening but with proper creep spread you can do Slowling vs. Reaper. I definitely get a factory when doing this. I like 3 rax, factory, then two more rax because after I make three rax I usually have 150/100 for the factory without needing to halt any production. You can have 6-10 reapers in their base with the speed upgrade before they have any gas. You literally cannot hold against a 5rax speed reaper without getting gas earlier and I have no doubt that anyone capable of properly executing a 5rax reaper (with a factory) would win against any zerg who doesn't get gas earlier. People seriously underestimate how good reapers are against queens. You can fight them head on and lose very, very little. If you have 5 or 6 reapers one queen wont kill any of them even if you just a-move your reapers. The key of course is getting that critical mass. Once you hit 10 it's over for the zerg unless they went roaches (which is impossible without getting faster gas than this build traditionally gets).
It's worth more testing, get a pratice partner and put a replay.
Anyone who played in the day of the 5rax reaper should know what it can do, which is a lot. The timings of it where nerfed to hell, but maybe the late late gas leaves a window... how many reapers with speed are you able to get up by zergs 40ish supply?
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This build is crazy. But it is definitely effective. I've been fooling around with Zerg no gas builds myself, and the results have been surprising. :D
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i tried it today vs protoss here is the replay (master ofc)
Sc2Replayed ZvP
it was quite refreshing, i didnt go for the baneling drop route even though i had it prepared... the toss went early air and all i had for anti air were 5 queens with 200/200 energy and 1 queen at each hatch
I just dropped his base with the queens and roaches and then never stopped attacking with roaches till all he had left were a few voidrays and that was the first time (22 minutes in game i think) at which i went for anti air.
SPANISHIWA FIGHTING :>
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I like the build and I've been doing it for a while before it became popular but my method of execution is different getting the gas a bit earlier around 32-36 supply and getting 2 to start then adding the other 2 after I replace the drones I took off the mineral line.
My only issue with your method is that getting the gas at 42/44 supply is a bit too late to stop any kind of early tank push in ZvT. Even if you have zerglings out you don't have speed and the tank push just rolls right through you and cannot have fungal ready infestors by the time the tanks hit your line...
Also, when getting all 4 extractors at once and then filling them... you are taking a total of 16 drones off minerals and putting them into gas right off the bat and that really makes your gas sky rocket above your mineral production. I like it but I think it needs a bit of tweaking.
Keep in mind, I am not anywhere near your rank on the ladder but when I switched from my variation of your build to your exact method I found myself losing more often to things like fast seige tanks and ZvZ fast muta builds. Yes, you have spores and plenty of queens to defend against the fast muta build but when the Zerg commits to going mass muta it just snow balls out of control. I even attempted to go roach infestor to fungal the muta ball to death but with proper spreading the fungals are not affective at all and with +1 on the mutalisks the infestors can be target with a small group of 3-4 mutalisks very easily.
Any ideas? I'd like to hear how getting a slightly faster gas could be more beneficial against such things.
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What do you do against a 2gate/4 stalker rush, where the protoss skips the opening zealot and has 4 stalkers before having warpgates. It is a build Kiwikaki used to do before all those 4gate variations became so popular and i don't see how you could stop it?
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seems easy to counter/delay by just stealing their gas. And since they only get one marine, you can indefinitely steal their gas until they get their first reaper out. In the meantime, you'll have to get your own gas started (or at least construct the refinery) and a roach warren.
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On April 13 2011 05:24 themell wrote:
seems easy to counter/delay by just stealing their gas. And since they only get one marine, you can indefinitely steal their gas until they get their first reaper out. In the meantime, you'll have to get your own gas started (or at least construct the refinery) and a roach warren.
You can't steal their gas if they block it (which I do every game if I think they might try). I just start up my 2nd refinery early - you have the minerals anyway - and then I'll stop constructing it and finish it later after they leave the base.
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lol my friend started using this build and immediately went from silver to platinum after having been in silver for like 2 months. haha he says it's safer than gas builds o.O
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I am having trouble transitioning into heavy gas mode in ZvZ... the opponnent got infestors earlier got burrow earlier but less units
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On April 13 2011 02:45 CoMMoDuS wrote:
What do you do against a 2gate/4 stalker rush, where the protoss skips the opening zealot and has 4 stalkers before having warpgates. It is a build Kiwikaki used to do before all those 4gate variations became so popular and i don't see how you could stop it?
You block the ramp with your queens, throw down another spine within range of the ramp, and get enough lings out that you can either chase him away or trap him while he tries to kill the spines.
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On April 13 2011 05:54 rek wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 05:24 themell wrote:
seems easy to counter/delay by just stealing their gas. And since they only get one marine, you can indefinitely steal their gas until they get their first reaper out. In the meantime, you'll have to get your own gas started (or at least construct the refinery) and a roach warren. You can't steal their gas if they block it (which I do every game if I think they might try). I just start up my 2nd refinery early - you have the minerals anyway - and then I'll stop constructing it and finish it later after they leave the base.
Yes you can really steal gas, pretty often at least. Sometimes people do this, where they block, but that just tips zerg off to 2 early gas (or the possibility of it) so they then need to take their own gas earlier.
Havn't encountered speed reapers with the no gas zerg build yet. It depends if you scout the reapers, or the extra tech labs on barracks and the factory. Would have to respond with a roach warren and maybe throw down 2 gas. By the time roach warren finishes you could pump out some roaches for defense, then continue droning depending how big the attack is and how well it is working. Otherwise I can see people losing to reapers if they don't scout it or don't prepare for it, which would be a lot as reapers aren't used much commonly.
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EPT
