|
On April 12 2011 06:11 Bobster wrote:Is a recording of Spanishiwa's game against Jemag on Metalopolis he played on 12 Weeks with the Pros available anywhere? Both the Youtube and the Justin.tv VoDs cut off in the middle of the game, before jemag does his 5gate attack.  I've seen ForceStrategy/Cricket did a cast of the game, but I wanted to hear MrBitter's reaction/comments. :lol
Check the replays in the OP.
edit: Nevermind, should have finished your post. Still, you can watch the entire replay.
|
On April 12 2011 06:03 brum wrote:
Your builds seem pretty interesting, although i wouldn't go anything but 14-15pool in zvz, since most zergs will <=10pool and possibly drone/spine allin. Even a 14pool can kill a 16hatch.
This is why you 9 scout to see if your opponent does < 10 Pool. This is another reason why the 13H/15P is a bit better than 16H/15P. If you see the early pool, you can cancel the Hatch immediately and have enough to get the Pool on 13 supply. This will usually give you enough time to defend early ling cheese.
Also not sure where you're getting the impression that a 14 pool can kill a 16 Hatch. I mean, it can but only if your opponent has better micro than you, in which case you'd probably lose the ZvZ anyways. If what you're saying is that hatch first against 14 pool is a BO loss, then that's just plain wrong. Spanishiwa routinely stops 10 pools from fantastic players with this strategy on his stream (unsure if he has any replays of this).
|
|
|
Very well organized write up, well done sir.
|
On April 12 2011 06:03 brum wrote:
Your builds seem pretty interesting, although i wouldn't go anything but 14-15pool in zvz, since most zergs will <=10pool and possibly drone/spine allin. Even a 14pool can kill a 16hatch.
a 14 pool kills a 16 hatch if you defend incorrectly. If you know how too defend then no a 14 pool will not kill a 16 hatch.
And scouting on 9 solves all these issues your worried about relating to hatch firsting.
|
|
|
I'm a terran and this is a very strong build which destroyed everything I threw at it like 5 times in a row when I first saw it. I tried everything from tank pushes, drops, to double fast expanding and nothing would work.
Then I sat back for a bit and thought about why no other zergs skip gas/speed. Didn't take me but a few seconds to remember the old 5 rax reaper build which tore people apart if they didn't get gas early enough. That build absolutely destroys this build.
So, if you are a terran and you scout this opening (it's really obvious) then my suggestion is simply go 3 rax, factory, and then 2 more rax. Reapers starting immediately after your first marine (1 marine to chase away potential scouts and it looks standard to them). Move out of your base around 6 minutes once you have a few with speed and simply go directly to their main base. At best they will have 4 queens and maybe enough energy for a couple transfuses - but not only will they not all be inside his main but even if they are: you do not care. You can control this horribly and still win easily.
Queens are *ridiculously* bad against reapers. Go to a unit tester and try it. You don't even need to kite, but you should focus fire. Kite the lings (easy since they are slow) and honestly you can just kill queens. If they try to put up spines then reapers kill them instantly, and you can target down the spawning pool whenever you want.
If you do the math its I believe 19 hits to kill a queen and queens do only 8 damage per hit (4x2) with reapers having 50 HP. That's 7 hits just to kill one reaper - she will be dead long before then even if you only have a few. Once you hit 10 she's dead in 2 shots. You don't care about creep, let them spread it all they want (it's wasted energy anyway). Ignore injects, just keep shooting the same target, even if they have energy for multiple injects you will still win in a straight battle. Of course don't forget to continue 5x reaper production the entire time and have them rallied properly.
|
So I was looking through the thread, and I couldn't find any suggestions on which maps to veto. Does anyone have any starting points on which maps would not be best for this build? I was thinking maybe Scrap Station with the large ramp into the main and the wide open space to the natural as well as the back door rocks. Also maybe veto Delta?
Anyone have a good idea for a 2nd/3rd map to veto? I've been hearing Slag Pits is bad but I haven't played enough games on that map for it to make an impact on my opinion.
|
On April 12 2011 07:50 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 06:03 brum wrote:
Your builds seem pretty interesting, although i wouldn't go anything but 14-15pool in zvz, since most zergs will <=10pool and possibly drone/spine allin. Even a 14pool can kill a 16hatch. a 14 pool kills a 16 hatch if you defend incorrectly. If you know how too defend then no a 14 hatch will not kill a 16 hatch. And scouting on 9 solves all these issues your worried about relating to hatch firsting.
That's interesting. 14 pool is the pretty much the only thing i lose to in zvz.
Any tips on holding it properly?
|
On April 12 2011 06:02 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 03:52 Fedor wrote:
Looks like heavy marauders and Hellions should be a good counter here. Or just a solid suprise banshee rush to kill the queens.
Anyway, I hope more zergs us it to get the queen toned down. This is straight up abuse im my mind. What? If Marauder/Hellion or "surprise" Banshees can stop it, how is it abuse? You just don't like fighting Queens? It's about time a Zerg opening was discovered that has a solid defense against all the random shit Terran can do to harass. It's "weakness" is the absence of map control until the geysers and additional income kicks in. Maybe we'll see more Diamond and below Terrans try to play macro games if this build becomes prevalent on the ladder.
Idk i doubt marauder/hellion would work. Banshee rush maybe but - as with all marine attacks these days - it would have to be a perfect timing.
shrug.
Terran don't play macro games because there isn't any reason to do it. Our late game is weak. Zerg insta remaxes and can throw away their army, and protoss can instanlly reinforce.
queens aren't meant to be your army. If they were they could fight off creep.
personally I think queens should be limited to how many hatches you have, as they are meant to be at your base protecting it and injecting ect.
It's also kind of against game mechanics that Zerg can be Defensive too. They already get a free fast expand, now they can turtle with it too?
But yeah, hopefully enough zerg will use it and it will bring the power of queens to light for better balance.
|
On April 12 2011 10:19 FatalRuin wrote:
So I was looking through the thread, and I couldn't find any suggestions on which maps to veto. Does anyone have any starting points on which maps would not be best for this build? I was thinking maybe Scrap Station with the large ramp into the main and the wide open space to the natural as well as the back door rocks. Also maybe veto Delta?
Anyone have a good idea for a 2nd/3rd map to veto? I've been hearing Slag Pits is bad but I haven't played enough games on that map for it to make an impact on my opinion.
IMO you shouldn't veto maps based on this build because there are enough terrible maps for Zerg in the pool that you should just be vetoing bad maps. Right now Scrap/DQ/Slag Pits are my vetoes. IMO DQ/Slag is inarguable, and I just don't like Scrap Station anymore now that Terran/Protoss have learned how to use the terrain and the wide ramp away from your expo turns ZvZ into one-base ling/bling wars which is no fun.
You don't have enough vetoes to thumb these down AND thumb down maps that are less ideal for Spanishiwa's build. Those include TDA against Zerg, XNC, and sometimes Metal. It's still doable, just more difficult.
dk i doubt marauder/hellion would work. Banshee rush maybe but - as with all marine attacks these days - it would have to be a perfect timing.
shrug.
Terran don't play macro games because there isn't any reason to do it. Our late game is weak. Zerg insta remaxes and can throw away their army, and protoss can instanlly reinforce.
queens aren't meant to be your army. If they were they could fight off creep.
personally I think queens should be limited to how many hatches you have, as they are meant to be at your base protecting it and injecting ect.
It's also kind of against game mechanics that Zerg can be Defensive too. They already get a free fast expand, now they can turtle with it too?
But yeah, hopefully enough zerg will use it and it will bring the power of queens to light for better balance.
Zerg can't throw away their army against a conservative, well-played macro Terran that utilizes harass (drops usually) and establishes map control with Marine/Tank/Thor. Not sure where you get the opinion that Terran late-game is terrible, it's most definitely not. Very difficult to play (at least for me), but not terrible.
How do you know what Queens are meant for? If Blizzard meant for Queens to be purely defensive, they wouldn't be able to move off of creep at all, or they would be limited by Hatcheries. Queens have two abilities other than larvae inject that help increase map presence and bolster fighting units (tumor/transfuse respectively). The fact that someone has finally figured out a build that can practically use multiple (4+) Queens effectively on defense and offense (check the Cruncher game) is only better for the diversity of strategies. In no way is it unbeatable.
And that "free" fast expand + turtle comes at the expense of all map control for roughly the first 10 minutes of the game until your gas income goes into overdrive. It's more than possible for any race to utilize that timing window to expand, hit a specialized timing attack, etc.
And be careful about bringing up balance on the strategy forum, it's not the place to discuss it.
|
On March 31 2011 11:05 SC2-Dethklok wrote:
Awesome finally a write up on this strat ive been using this after watching you on 12 weeks with MrBitter with great results!
same!
I use it ever since, it has only given me trouble in ZvZ tho so i get one gas for banes as an extra precaution.
|
On April 12 2011 10:27 fusihunter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 07:50 blade55555 wrote:On April 12 2011 06:03 brum wrote:
Your builds seem pretty interesting, although i wouldn't go anything but 14-15pool in zvz, since most zergs will <=10pool and possibly drone/spine allin. Even a 14pool can kill a 16hatch. a 14 pool kills a 16 hatch if you defend incorrectly. If you know how too defend then no a 14 hatch will not kill a 16 hatch. And scouting on 9 solves all these issues your worried about relating to hatch firsting. That's interesting. 14 pool is the pretty much the only thing i lose to in zvz. Any tips on holding it properly?
PM'd you, don't want to advertise my guide I wrote on here  .
|
Im slowly working on it in vT and vP, its getting better but i think my lack of results stems from me falling apart in the mid/late game more then anything.
My early game does feel solid as i practice more, defending marine/scv all in is cake now, but hellions do get the best of me and some of the wider open natural maps like XNC make spine crawler placement tricky with the amount of movement room, and the fact they can dart up the ramp if in not careful.
I would be interested to see how your 11p/18h experiments turn out, because i just could not get comfortable with the build in vZ, i just feel betting off going a regular hatch first or 14/14 build. Also do you plan on continuing to release replays as you tweak the build?
|
On April 12 2011 10:14 rek wrote:
I'm a terran and this is a very strong build which destroyed everything I threw at it like 5 times in a row when I first saw it. I tried everything from tank pushes, drops, to double fast expanding and nothing would work.
Then I sat back for a bit and thought about why no other zergs skip gas/speed. Didn't take me but a few seconds to remember the old 5 rax reaper build which tore people apart if they didn't get gas early enough. That build absolutely destroys this build.
So, if you are a terran and you scout this opening (it's really obvious) then my suggestion is simply go 3 rax, factory, and then 2 more rax. Reapers starting immediately after your first marine (1 marine to chase away potential scouts and it looks standard to them). Move out of your base around 6 minutes once you have a few with speed and simply go directly to their main base. At best they will have 4 queens and maybe enough energy for a couple transfuses - but not only will they not all be inside his main but even if they are: you do not care. You can control this horribly and still win easily.
Queens are *ridiculously* bad against reapers. Go to a unit tester and try it. You don't even need to kite, but you should focus fire. Kite the lings (easy since they are slow) and honestly you can just kill queens. If they try to put up spines then reapers kill them instantly, and you can target down the spawning pool whenever you want.
If you do the math its I believe 19 hits to kill a queen and queens do only 8 damage per hit (4x2) with reapers having 50 HP. That's 7 hits just to kill one reaper - she will be dead long before then even if you only have a few. Once you hit 10 she's dead in 2 shots. You don't care about creep, let them spread it all they want (it's wasted energy anyway). Ignore injects, just keep shooting the same target, even if they have energy for multiple injects you will still win in a straight battle. Of course don't forget to continue 5x reaper production the entire time and have them rallied properly.
I'd like to see a replay of Spanishiwa's build against this. It seems like something that could be really scary when you've only got queens and crawlers.
|
On April 12 2011 14:50 Piquick wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 10:14 rek wrote:
I'm a terran and this is a very strong build which destroyed everything I threw at it like 5 times in a row when I first saw it. I tried everything from tank pushes, drops, to double fast expanding and nothing would work.
Then I sat back for a bit and thought about why no other zergs skip gas/speed. Didn't take me but a few seconds to remember the old 5 rax reaper build which tore people apart if they didn't get gas early enough. That build absolutely destroys this build.
So, if you are a terran and you scout this opening (it's really obvious) then my suggestion is simply go 3 rax, factory, and then 2 more rax. Reapers starting immediately after your first marine (1 marine to chase away potential scouts and it looks standard to them). Move out of your base around 6 minutes once you have a few with speed and simply go directly to their main base. At best they will have 4 queens and maybe enough energy for a couple transfuses - but not only will they not all be inside his main but even if they are: you do not care. You can control this horribly and still win easily.
Queens are *ridiculously* bad against reapers. Go to a unit tester and try it. You don't even need to kite, but you should focus fire. Kite the lings (easy since they are slow) and honestly you can just kill queens. If they try to put up spines then reapers kill them instantly, and you can target down the spawning pool whenever you want.
If you do the math its I believe 19 hits to kill a queen and queens do only 8 damage per hit (4x2) with reapers having 50 HP. That's 7 hits just to kill one reaper - she will be dead long before then even if you only have a few. Once you hit 10 she's dead in 2 shots. You don't care about creep, let them spread it all they want (it's wasted energy anyway). Ignore injects, just keep shooting the same target, even if they have energy for multiple injects you will still win in a straight battle. Of course don't forget to continue 5x reaper production the entire time and have them rallied properly.
I'd like to see a replay of Spanishiwa's build against this. It seems like something that could be really scary when you've only got queens and crawlers.
The problem is that it can be difficult to scout for Spanishiwa's build. There are a variety of opener's that can take late gases at the expansion, and if they scan the main to see a lack of gas and THEN transition into 5 rax Reaper...well by then you've gotten your gas and should be able to defend.
I also see no reason why, if you really get caught with your pants down, you wouldn't be able to reposition your natural spines closer to your minerals and mainly use your Queens to defend your main. With decent creep spread and transfuse micro, I don't really see Reapers posing that big of a threat, you should at least be able to stall until Speedlings/Roaches are on the field.
|
On April 12 2011 14:29 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 10:27 fusihunter wrote:On April 12 2011 07:50 blade55555 wrote:On April 12 2011 06:03 brum wrote:
Your builds seem pretty interesting, although i wouldn't go anything but 14-15pool in zvz, since most zergs will <=10pool and possibly drone/spine allin. Even a 14pool can kill a 16hatch. a 14 pool kills a 16 hatch if you defend incorrectly. If you know how too defend then no a 14 hatch will not kill a 16 hatch. And scouting on 9 solves all these issues your worried about relating to hatch firsting. That's interesting. 14 pool is the pretty much the only thing i lose to in zvz. Any tips on holding it properly? PM'd you, don't want to advertise my guide I wrote on here .
i have that same trouble using span's build in zvz as well, you should post a link or at least pm it to me as well 
|
On April 08 2011 11:49 garlicface wrote:
Really looking forward to trying this build. I'm just curious though, isn't 16 OL better than 17/18 OL in regards to pumping drones?
Not in this case because of the larva and queen timings..You want to get double queen as soon as the pool pops which is (by my last trials) between the timings of when a 17 or 18 ovie would pop. In this case you're saving cash for queens, followed by pumping drones. Try it, you'll see. 16h/15p or 13h/15p are quite similar in their timings.
|
On April 12 2011 15:43 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 14:50 Piquick wrote:On April 12 2011 10:14 rek wrote:
I'm a terran and this is a very strong build which destroyed everything I threw at it like 5 times in a row when I first saw it. I tried everything from tank pushes, drops, to double fast expanding and nothing would work.
Then I sat back for a bit and thought about why no other zergs skip gas/speed. Didn't take me but a few seconds to remember the old 5 rax reaper build which tore people apart if they didn't get gas early enough. That build absolutely destroys this build.
So, if you are a terran and you scout this opening (it's really obvious) then my suggestion is simply go 3 rax, factory, and then 2 more rax. Reapers starting immediately after your first marine (1 marine to chase away potential scouts and it looks standard to them). Move out of your base around 6 minutes once you have a few with speed and simply go directly to their main base. At best they will have 4 queens and maybe enough energy for a couple transfuses - but not only will they not all be inside his main but even if they are: you do not care. You can control this horribly and still win easily.
Queens are *ridiculously* bad against reapers. Go to a unit tester and try it. You don't even need to kite, but you should focus fire. Kite the lings (easy since they are slow) and honestly you can just kill queens. If they try to put up spines then reapers kill them instantly, and you can target down the spawning pool whenever you want.
If you do the math its I believe 19 hits to kill a queen and queens do only 8 damage per hit (4x2) with reapers having 50 HP. That's 7 hits just to kill one reaper - she will be dead long before then even if you only have a few. Once you hit 10 she's dead in 2 shots. You don't care about creep, let them spread it all they want (it's wasted energy anyway). Ignore injects, just keep shooting the same target, even if they have energy for multiple injects you will still win in a straight battle. Of course don't forget to continue 5x reaper production the entire time and have them rallied properly.
I'd like to see a replay of Spanishiwa's build against this. It seems like something that could be really scary when you've only got queens and crawlers. The problem is that it can be difficult to scout for Spanishiwa's build. There are a variety of opener's that can take late gases at the expansion, and if they scan the main to see a lack of gas and THEN transition into 5 rax Reaper...well by then you've gotten your gas and should be able to defend. I also see no reason why, if you really get caught with your pants down, you wouldn't be able to reposition your natural spines closer to your minerals and mainly use your Queens to defend your main. With decent creep spread and transfuse micro, I don't really see Reapers posing that big of a threat, you should at least be able to stall until Speedlings/Roaches are on the field.
Now that Reaper Speed requires a factory (which you won't have), your Reapers are no faster than slowlings off creep, which means they're quite a bit slower than slowlings + creep.
It might still be an effective opening but with proper creep spread you can do Slowling vs. Reaper.
|
On April 12 2011 15:56 fallore wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 14:29 blade55555 wrote:On April 12 2011 10:27 fusihunter wrote:On April 12 2011 07:50 blade55555 wrote:On April 12 2011 06:03 brum wrote:
Your builds seem pretty interesting, although i wouldn't go anything but 14-15pool in zvz, since most zergs will <=10pool and possibly drone/spine allin. Even a 14pool can kill a 16hatch. a 14 pool kills a 16 hatch if you defend incorrectly. If you know how too defend then no a 14 hatch will not kill a 16 hatch. And scouting on 9 solves all these issues your worried about relating to hatch firsting. That's interesting. 14 pool is the pretty much the only thing i lose to in zvz. Any tips on holding it properly? PM'd you, don't want to advertise my guide I wrote on here . i have that same trouble using span's build in zvz as well, you should post a link or at least pm it to me as well
That's my automatic response since I always do 14 pool and 10 scout. And therefore know roughly what build you did even on 4 player map right around the time my ling speed is started / pool finish.
- Get baneling nest.
- Stop gas after 50 more gas.
- Throw down my expansion.
- All lings.
- Get 2 banelings, keep them back.
- Focus down spinecrawlers.
- Focus down hatch.
- Keep banelings in the back
- If he engages with lots of lings, blow them up with your 2 banelings, should let you turn the tide. If he moves out with roaches or queens, surround and kill, but ignore if they are on ramp.
- Move back home when his expansion is sniped, and your popped.
So far that seems quite successfull to me, but perhaps if you are high in masters, you know how to save your hatch.
I normally end up with having sniped your hatch, then I turn around and drone / spine crawler, since you will have 3 queens, lots of lings, roaches or banelings or hive on the way (after I snipe expo), but only one hatch.
Need to get drones off gas after the second 100 gas (100 for ling speed, 50 for baneling nest, 50 more for 2 banes), to afford my expo + not wasting larvae while building lings.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
