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On April 10 2011 20:26 hypnobean wrote:
What's stopping a Zerg from scouting the early spine and extra queens and pulling back, droning real hard while cutting corners since you are obviously unable to be aggressive any time soon? That was always my trouble with the heavier queen play in ZvZ.
Nothing, but this build is one of if not the most larvae efficient defenses with the earliest hatch so they will have trouble outdroning you. Also seeing 1 spine doesn't give away the build, an early spine can indicate all sorts of roach pushes off of 2 base so they do have to beware of a hard hit then.
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The early spine in conjunction with several early queens doesn't give away this particular build but it does tip off that a lot of early resources are being invested in defensive units as opposed to something that poses an immediate threat. I think there is value in this build, I'm just wondering how other people deal with a ZvZ where the opponent is not trying to be aggressive, but is instead using the fact that you are investing so much in defense to cut corners. But I get your point. It's not like going for early roaches to block your ramp then droning where you have already invested gas and a lot of larvae in your defense, and if he does decide to get aggressive it plays into this build's strength.
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I have been seeing more and more spine crawlers in my tvz matchs and I must say they are a very nasty thing to deal with as they have a ton of hit points and great dps vs the units that are good vs them ie marauders. I'm really looking for a solution to spines as a terran player and not really finding any good answers. I can totally see a meta shift back into more terrans all-in on zerg because they haven't found the solution for the new tricks yet. I will be interested to see what happens when this build gets more popular not that it isn't already.
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That's a nice set of replays, gonna watch for sure
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On April 10 2011 21:17 hypnobean wrote:
The early spine in conjunction with several early queens doesn't give away this particular build but it does tip off that a lot of early resources are being invested in defensive units as opposed to something that poses an immediate threat. I think there is value in this build, I'm just wondering how other people deal with a ZvZ where the opponent is not trying to be aggressive, but is instead using the fact that you are investing so much in defense to cut corners. But I get your point. It's not like going for early roaches to block your ramp then droning where you have already invested gas and a lot of larvae in your defense, and if he does decide to get aggressive it plays into this build's strength.
it loses.
The early spine does not give away the build, but the superlate gas does. you see that and you can take a 3rd when your natural is not even finished.
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On April 10 2011 21:42 xJaCEx wrote:
I have been seeing more and more spine crawlers in my tvz matchs and I must say they are a very nasty thing to deal with as they have a ton of hit points and great dps vs the units that are good vs them ie marauders. I'm really looking for a solution to spines as a terran player and not really finding any good answers. I can totally see a meta shift back into more terrans all-in on zerg because they haven't found the solution for the new tricks yet. I will be interested to see what happens when this build gets more popular not that it isn't already.
The strenghts of this build is that it's a solid defence against one-base aggression. You have to do a very risky all-in to have any shot at killing it. However, the weakness of this build is that it has pretty much zero aggressive potential before the 10-minute mark. Instead of trying to find way to punish and outright kill this build, use the obvious glaring weakness and take a faster third instead.
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A fast 3rd as terran? What do I get out of that 10 supply and a handful more workers? I'm not really saying that is what I would do vs the build anyhow I just feel that more players are doing this type of build where they cut gas for spines so they can drone harder. So I expect some type of shift in the way terrans play vs zerg and all-in was just a guess as it has happened before when zerg found a strategy that works.
Also if i'm not mistaken doesn't he list 2 rax all in as one of the builds weakness?
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On April 10 2011 16:33 Dhalphir wrote:
How would this fare against a 4gate Robo?
Most of the time its stronger PvZ than a standard 4gate despite coming a little later as the warp prism not only allows the Protoss to skip right past your spine crawlers but also to negate any risk of getting a proxy pylon sniped as you won't have anything to hit the prism besides queens which are easily sniped.
4gate robo (warp prism) isn't so big of a deal. It will repeat the scenario where Cruncher attempted to warp in atop of Spanishiwa's main. Same difference, only more delayed, it'll rely on spine repositioning and queen micro
3gate robo all in is very dangerous imo. The immortals MUST BE KEPT away from the spine crawlers. I once had a friend 3gate robo all-in me, and his immortals chewed up the spine crawlers. Once the spines were down I did not have enough DPS backing my queens and I died to the 3gate worth of gateway units =(
Because scouting arrives relatively late in this build due to delayed lair, and he opened with a fake 3gate expand (with only 3 sentries) it was very hard to judge that he was going to hit me with a zealot/sentry/immortal all-in.
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ALSO as a very important note
It is almost impossible to stop 1gate1forge aggression with hatch first
Cannons in conjunction with zealots hitting the front means either drones will be lost or the cannons will finish. I have tested this and the only solution is to slap down a pool asap, place a spine at the main (for the zealots), and cancel the natural at the last second to waste his cannons.
1gate1forge and proxy 2gate openers completely shut down this build. 1gate1forge being the deadlier build, because it transitions smoothly into cannon expansion, or +1 timing attack, whereas proxy 2gate is needless to say, all-in, and can be easily handled with 1 base roach.
Is there a ZvP variation that is pool first? It is often that a Protoss would even scout me late, see my hatchery, and throw down a forge in place of a cyber core, and proceed to cannon me while rallying chrono'd zealots. There seems to be no cost efficient way to deal with this aggression.
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On April 10 2011 23:03 xJaCEx wrote:
A fast 3rd as terran? What do I get out of that 10 supply and a handful more workers?
Also if i'm not mistaken doesn't he list 2 rax all in as one of the builds weakness?
You can get your third up at 8 minutes, which is a perfectly reasonable time for a third. You get an additional OC to spam mules with - what's not to like?
2rax all-in with every SCV is indeed problematic. However, it's not really any worse than a standard hatch first build. You won't have speed anyway before that bitbybit all-in hits, so the best way to hold it is queens/spines/slowlings/drones, which this build still has available to it.
The reason why this build is more vulnerable to 2rax marine/SCV all-in is not the late gas but the late hatch - and there's a reason people started to stop doing the bitbybit all-in vs hatch first. People learned how to hold it going hatch first on all but the closest of rush distances.
You can try all-ining this build, but why not take a faster third? It's safer and gets you further ahead instead of betting everything on a risky gamble the build is designed to take on anyhow.
The lack of gas does mean that some things become extremely annoying - reapers for instance are a pain in the ass to deal with if you do this opening due to the lack of ling speed. If you want to punish a zerg for not getting gas, that might be the best ticket.
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On March 31 2011 11:56 DrDoom wrote:
Awesome guide! I've been looking at revamping my builds lately and this should help a ton.
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I really like this build! Haven't tried it yet in ZvZ but it's basically my standard every ZvT now.
However i have my own variations of it. I basically in every ZvT and ZvP (unless they just blindly keep a probe at the nat in ZvP) just do the 16/15 and 4 queens along with the 38-44 supply 4 gas throw down. I just like the opening, queens help so much with saving transfuse for various aggressions, creating insane amounts of tumors for creep spread direction, anti air early and just having a bulky unit to take damage for any aggression, and they are ready later on for a macro hatch/3rd base.
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don't u think that alot zerg power in early game comes from speedlings? i can't imagine playing without them but... i'll give it a shoot
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Been watching his stream. Dude's a badass
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This guy is too awesome for a 17 year old non-pro gamer. seriously
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On April 11 2011 06:01 Sapp wrote:
don't u think that alot zerg power in early game comes from speedlings? i can't imagine playing without them but... i'll give it a shoot
You kind of run on the creep speed bonus, when someone would push your FE hatch you usually have creep well past your natural all the way to whatever your third would be, as well as coverage towards your opponent. Also, you have to be very smart with your slowlings, like tuck them away in such a way that you can come from behind and get a flank if your opponent tries to run into your spines, so that they can't retreat.
And you get speed eventually, and its easy to scout a certain kind of push and say "ok, i cant do this build, i need gas", but there actually aren't many of those that I have encountered. In fact for me, it's more the map that determines whether or not I use this build. I don't like it on Xel'naga caverns for example, The map is too open and not easy to cover with queens and crawlers, and also speedlings are wonderful with all the back alleys etc. But on Shattered Temple where you have a narrow area which covers your main, natural and even one of the entrances to your third, this build is fantastic. And of course, scrap station doesnt favor this sort of build either.
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On April 11 2011 08:47 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 06:01 Sapp wrote:
don't u think that alot zerg power in early game comes from speedlings? i can't imagine playing without them but... i'll give it a shoot You kind of run on the creep speed bonus, when someone would push your FE hatch you usually have creep well past your natural all the way to whatever your third would be, as well as coverage towards your opponent. Also, you have to be very smart with your slowlings, like tuck them away in such a way that you can come from behind and get a flank if your opponent tries to run into your spines, so that they can't retreat. And you get speed eventually, and its easy to scout a certain kind of push and say "ok, i cant do this build, i need gas", but there actually aren't many of those that I have encountered. In fact for me, it's more the map that determines whether or not I use this build. I don't like it on Xel'naga caverns for example, The map is too open and not easy to cover with queens and crawlers, and also speedlings are wonderful with all the back alleys etc. But on Shattered Temple where you have a narrow area which covers your main, natural and even one of the entrances to your third, this build is fantastic. And of course, scrap station doesnt favor this sort of build either.
Agreed with this. The map more often than not determines whether or not I go with the Ice Fisher build.
Generally vZ is the matchup where it's really map dependent. It's important to be able to limit the surface area that ling/bane can get an angle on your mineral line. Scrap, Slag Pits, and DQ are vetoed for me so those aren't a problem, but this applies to XNC and sometimes Metal and TDA just because of the wide choke.
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Of the currently acceptable Zerg builds, Spanishiwa's is probably the best at teaching a new Zerg how to grasp the fundamentals of the race. The excess of queens prevents early rushed air harass and teaches the benefit of creep spread. The rush to two saturated bases both shows the importance of droning opportunistically and teaches the new Zerg to rush ahead with drones. The reliance on scouting pushes new Zergs to learn tells for early rushes and preserve their early lings for information. It all ends up with a super-strong mid-game that can fork in any number of directions.
This build has won me games by following it like a textbook, but it has also helped me actually learn the parts of my build that used to get me killed in what I felt were "random" ways (it was almost always over-mining gas or failing to drone up enough prior to the mid-game).
Who knows if this build has staying power at the high end, but for most players it illustrates a lot of the strengths of Zerg in black and white. Major props, sir!
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Thank you so much Spanishiwa! I asked a few questions while I was watching your stream and I'm so excited to check out your ZvZ replays.
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Spanishiwa you should upload the 10 games you just played with Rootdestiny... I don't think I've ever seen nydus' used so much.
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EPT
