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On April 09 2011 21:33 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 18:35 tgun wrote:On April 09 2011 03:04 JediGamer wrote:On April 08 2011 23:53 tgun wrote:
JediGamer: That would only really beat Zergs who aren't very familiar with the build, since they can drop 1-2 spines at their natural, be safe to hellion runby's and destroy your drop with 4 queens + slow lings.
Spanishiwa's build is amazingly strong, as most terran/toss haven't figured out a way to adapt to it. Zergs are ceeding a small amount of mapcontrol early on (fast slings) in exchange for a faster, stronger economy, allowing for a better outlook entering the midgame. Seeing as how the only Blue highlighted players here are saying it won't work vs consistent opponents. Anyhow I won't bother saying its not an epic build because there will be about 50 midmasters-bronze posts that will shout 'NO!' at me. How many people here actually looked at CrunChers macro during the game. His first warp in of units he had 450 gas. Warping in zealots. It was an experimental build that failed. Yeah, you can pretty much disregard what I'm saying without actually providing a factual retort, but the fact stands that the way his build is constructed leads you into a much stronger midgame, ceeding early-game mapcontrol and having a very tedious opening. People like you are the reason that we move so slowly forward; you're too careful to try new things. [...] Sure u get a decent midgame up with that econ ... but you need to GET to midgame which is considered one of the biggest problems of Z. We are not trying to slow down the process we even make it faster by pointing out obvious counters to this build. It is more that most of the people here posting have played the build only 30-50 times (yes only) and it is not that well known on ladder (for P/T at least, saw several Zergs doin it now). It is a good thing by spani but imo this build is just pushing over the top. Try to get a good timing for your gas instead of blindly playing this build because it works on ladder RIGHT NOW edit: imo on my level of play(dia+) most T and P dont really get the whole thing about mapcontrol yet. but this will change drastically with such builds for zerg.
Getting to midgame with 4 queens and the ability to put up spines as defense is ridiculously easy. (Again, Not talking about ZvP as I believe in zvP it is not viable to ever hatch first).
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Watched you on Bitters channel, watched your stream and your replays - I'm really glad you hammered out this opener. I had been playing with late gas for a while but poorly. Since mimicking your style I've been doing really well, had me some educational losses too lol, so thanks for sharing! x
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Does any one have some reps with the 13H 15 P BO?
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I've been a supporter of your style for a bit, and now that I've tried your actual build, I realize just how effective it is.
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I just played ZvZ on Tal'darim Altar against someone who went Spanishiwa on me... I went 15 hatch 15 gas 16 pool... he had two spines when I got to his base with about 14 lings but I just ran past, caused some problems in his main (he lost quite a few drones, no way to stop it)... a couple min later I did another runby with 20 lings or so and took out his queens, was able to grab a 3rd. I'm not a big fan of this build in ZvZ just because the late gas means you can't get speedlings - I also got a baneling nest but turns out I didn't need it.
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On April 10 2011 02:44 FairForever wrote:
I just played ZvZ on Tal'darim Altar against someone who went Spanishiwa on me... I went 15 hatch 15 gas 16 pool... he had two spines when I got to his base with about 14 lings but I just ran past, caused some problems in his main (he lost quite a few drones, no way to stop it)... a couple min later I did another runby with 20 lings or so and took out his queens, was able to grab a 3rd. I'm not a big fan of this build in ZvZ just because the late gas means you can't get speedlings - I also got a baneling nest but turns out I didn't need it.
Tal'darim is poor for it simply because you can't block between main and nat very effectively. I wouldnt do it there. On a map with an easily blocked ramp you can't just run by every time.
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On April 10 2011 02:47 susiederkins wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 02:44 FairForever wrote:
I just played ZvZ on Tal'darim Altar against someone who went Spanishiwa on me... I went 15 hatch 15 gas 16 pool... he had two spines when I got to his base with about 14 lings but I just ran past, caused some problems in his main (he lost quite a few drones, no way to stop it)... a couple min later I did another runby with 20 lings or so and took out his queens, was able to grab a 3rd. I'm not a big fan of this build in ZvZ just because the late gas means you can't get speedlings - I also got a baneling nest but turns out I didn't need it. Tal'darim is poor for it simply because you can't block between main and nat very effectively. I wouldnt do it there. On a map with an easily blocked ramp you can't just run by every time.
Agreed - can you get a rampblock up in time against a 15 hatch 15 gas 15 pool though? I guess you could double queen but then they could camp your base and you wouldn't be able to move your queens to inject, putting you far behind anyway.
Another concern I have is that with a 16 hatch it's pretty easy for any race to get around in time to block the nat... but I suppose that's always the case.
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On April 10 2011 03:01 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 02:47 susiederkins wrote:On April 10 2011 02:44 FairForever wrote:
I just played ZvZ on Tal'darim Altar against someone who went Spanishiwa on me... I went 15 hatch 15 gas 16 pool... he had two spines when I got to his base with about 14 lings but I just ran past, caused some problems in his main (he lost quite a few drones, no way to stop it)... a couple min later I did another runby with 20 lings or so and took out his queens, was able to grab a 3rd. I'm not a big fan of this build in ZvZ just because the late gas means you can't get speedlings - I also got a baneling nest but turns out I didn't need it. Tal'darim is poor for it simply because you can't block between main and nat very effectively. I wouldnt do it there. On a map with an easily blocked ramp you can't just run by every time. Agreed - can you get a rampblock up in time against a 15 hatch 15 gas 15 pool though? I guess you could double queen but then they could camp your base and you wouldn't be able to move your queens to inject, putting you far behind anyway. Another concern I have is that with a 16 hatch it's pretty easy for any race to get around in time to block the nat... but I suppose that's always the case.
You can easily get a rampblock up in time against any 15 hatcher. On mid-long distance positions, you can almost get a rampblock up in time against a 14gas/14pool.
I use a modified version of this build in ZvZ, where I hatch on 15, only take 3 of my geysers and only build one evo, opting for burrow/roach speed and tunneling claws instead.
A common answer to this build that I see on ladder quite a bit is for your opponent to expand behind you, but cut drones at like 22 and just mass speedlings with an evo, attacking when their +1 finishes. If he hides it and you're not expecting it, this can be really potent, as it typically hits only just when your roaches are coming out. And even with two queens with full energy blocking the ramp, the speedlings can eventually take them down and smash your main.
Solution is to just be aware of this build and scout for the signs (evo, low drone count). If you think he's doing it, add a few more spines accordingly, delay your lair until it's held off and just pump roaches like a motherfucker once your RW is up.
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"It really baffles me how people say that this build has good creep spread, sure, you have alot of extra queens, but only in lowlevel games this actually results in more creepspread. against competent opponents you need queens AND mapcontrol, otherwise your opponent will just walk up right outside your static defense and wait there and kill of any tumor that tries to spread out."
Queens at the edge of creep can ward off any denying units, unless there is a substantial amount (enough that it would set your opponent back). This is also very risky, as they don't know your gas timing. It's very easy to deny scouting with queens + spines.
"How many people here actually looked at CrunChers macro during the game. His first warp in of units he had 450 gas. Warping in zealots. It was an experimental build that failed. "
He 4 gated.. what's experimental about it? He had most likely planned to follow up with stargates but found it wouldn't be viable because of the queen count. My macro was hurt as well as he kept sniping overlords, and he made quick use of that gas stockpile by warping in a round of DTs.
"Could you discuss the rational behind going 16 hatch 15 pool instead of 15 hatch 14 pool or 14 hatch 14 pool? is 16/15 just a bit more economical, or does it have specific timings that require the extra drone?"
Not sure.. the difference is very minute. I liked 16 hatch 15 pool because it was what I had originally came up with, but I received messages that 13h 15p was superior. After experimenting they both have their merits, so it's just preference I think.
"Drones blocking the ramp is risky and dumb."
I use a queen to block, most maps you only need 1 to block a zealot or a stalker.
"How well does this build fare in low level ZvZ?"
Low level? Smashingly. Blindly following the early BO will give you many wins, simply because your timings will defeat any 1 base ling timings of even the best players, so lower level players you'll have a great advantage.
"Sure, but how much does a queen cost? Are you going to make that queen every game just in case I want to run up the ramp? Running up the ramp is just a single of the many options one can do."
I make that queen every game, every time  . Helps with creep spread, transfuses, safety, etc. Transitions well late game with transfuse on T3 units as well as gooping expansions with tumors.
"One group which has one queen for each hatch which you use for spawning larva, and another group of your creep tumoring/transfusing/defending queens."
Thank you for this! I was meaning to do try this, but didn't really feel motivated. It works great!
"The thing is, as i said, this build is good against certain things (especially 1 base allins), but once a very good player has played against this 1-2 times he should be able to exploit it properly (faking aggression to force crawlers, expanding but denying the slowlings from scouting it early - on some maps you cant use ovis to scout his natural)."
That's cheating. He's using information gathered from previous games to beat you. Ideally, you should only be using information gathered in that game to predict your opponent. Although that isn't as stalwart in practice, but this is where the BoX mind games come into play. Cheese him or something to keep him off balance, or try to play it perfectly reacting perfectly every time (sort of an idra style).
"Now you might say that it is a good build to play once in a series to surprise your opponent. But the problem with this is that your opponent will be able to keep his scouting worker alive until at least ~30 seconds after your pool finishes, that means, he will be able to see that even until then you have not taken your gas, thus he knows he will be very save. if you take gas after you have killed his worker in order to throw him off, it will take another 3:15 until you have zergling speed done, with which you could get aggressive. that is very late."
You can fake geysers, or take one and not saturate it. Tons of things you can do to prevent this.
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Spanishwa been trying your build (200 Point masters atm) and i am having great success in zvz and zvp (if i can get to the late game i have lost once to 4 gate casue i didn't scout and i lost about 4 zvp's to forge first cannon rushes/blocking the wall) I am having a little trouble in zvt where i get attacked with a siege/marine force and i don't have enough lings to deal with it how do you generally deal with the standard 1 base marnie/tank push?
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When should I be getting my 3rd with this build? Ever since I saw the name "spanishiwa" on it I knew it would be great because i've watched your stream (and seeing you stomp Ska several times on the fallacy channel). I'm having good luck with it at Low Diamond, but I don't seem to know when to stop producing the units you mention that should be produced and just start droning up to take a 3rd and even a 4th.
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On April 10 2011 02:35 vahgar.r24 wrote:
Does any one have some reps with the 13H 15 P BO?
If you head over to Spanishiwa's stream, you can view the VODs of the past few days, and watch him execute the newer style. While it's not a replay, it should hold you over (as it has me) until he's got the time to post more replays.
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On April 10 2011 08:13 Moonling wrote:
Spanishwa been trying your build (200 Point masters atm) and i am having great success in zvz and zvp (if i can get to the late game i have lost once to 4 gate casue i didn't scout and i lost about 4 zvp's to forge first cannon rushes/blocking the wall) I am having a little trouble in zvt where i get attacked with a siege/marine force and i don't have enough lings to deal with it how do you generally deal with the standard 1 base marnie/tank push?
I was struggling with this for a while too... Right now you're just lacking a basic understanding of attack timings.
A Terran who opens 1 gas into hellions into some sort of tank/marine push is going to be attacking you around 9:30.
Knowing that, you should make it a point to recognize the indicators (ie: did he go 1 gas, into hellions, into extra rax?) and use that to factor into when you want to build units.
In the case of the tank/marine push you're describing, I'll stop droning at about 8 minutes, pump about 50-75 speedlings, roflstomp his push, and then just double expand behind it.
For any kind of later tank push, you should really be closing in on hive tech in time to deal with it.
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On April 10 2011 13:45 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 08:13 Moonling wrote:
Spanishwa been trying your build (200 Point masters atm) and i am having great success in zvz and zvp (if i can get to the late game i have lost once to 4 gate casue i didn't scout and i lost about 4 zvp's to forge first cannon rushes/blocking the wall) I am having a little trouble in zvt where i get attacked with a siege/marine force and i don't have enough lings to deal with it how do you generally deal with the standard 1 base marnie/tank push? I was struggling with this for a while too... Right now you're just lacking a basic understanding of attack timings. A Terran who opens 1 gas into hellions into some sort of tank/marine push is going to be attacking you around 9:30. Knowing that, you should make it a point to recognize the indicators (ie: did he go 1 gas, into hellions, into extra rax?) and use that to factor into when you want to build units. In the case of the tank/marine push you're describing, I'll stop droning at about 8 minutes, pump about 50-75 speedlings, roflstomp his push, and then just double expand behind it. For any kind of later tank push, you should really be closing in on hive tech in time to deal with it.
MrBitters! Offer still stands on that follow up, although everything is still experimental at this point.. feel like I'm making progress though, especially ZvZ!
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On April 10 2011 15:11 Spanishiwa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 13:45 MrBitter wrote:On April 10 2011 08:13 Moonling wrote:
Spanishwa been trying your build (200 Point masters atm) and i am having great success in zvz and zvp (if i can get to the late game i have lost once to 4 gate casue i didn't scout and i lost about 4 zvp's to forge first cannon rushes/blocking the wall) I am having a little trouble in zvt where i get attacked with a siege/marine force and i don't have enough lings to deal with it how do you generally deal with the standard 1 base marnie/tank push? I was struggling with this for a while too... Right now you're just lacking a basic understanding of attack timings. A Terran who opens 1 gas into hellions into some sort of tank/marine push is going to be attacking you around 9:30. Knowing that, you should make it a point to recognize the indicators (ie: did he go 1 gas, into hellions, into extra rax?) and use that to factor into when you want to build units. In the case of the tank/marine push you're describing, I'll stop droning at about 8 minutes, pump about 50-75 speedlings, roflstomp his push, and then just double expand behind it. For any kind of later tank push, you should really be closing in on hive tech in time to deal with it. MrBitters! Offer still stands on that follow up, although everything is still experimental at this point.. feel like I'm making progress though, especially ZvZ!
Any time, man. I have tons of questions about the build in ZvP. Blink baffles the fuck out of me. I think it might be a hard counter...
In ZvT I think this build is straight up amazing.
And ZvZ I haven't really been using it at all... Dimaga style ftw!
edit: ffs, I keep forgetting my girlfriend set up a TL account...
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How would this fare against a 4gate Robo?
Most of the time its stronger PvZ than a standard 4gate despite coming a little later as the warp prism not only allows the Protoss to skip right past your spine crawlers but also to negate any risk of getting a proxy pylon sniped as you won't have anything to hit the prism besides queens which are easily sniped.
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On April 10 2011 16:33 Dhalphir wrote:
How would this fare against a 4gate Robo?
Most of the time its stronger PvZ than a standard 4gate despite coming a little later as the warp prism not only allows the Protoss to skip right past your spine crawlers but also to negate any risk of getting a proxy pylon sniped as you won't have anything to hit the prism besides queens which are easily sniped.
Erm... I doubt this will beat this build.
Warp prisms are paper weights, and if you want to use it to 'skip' the spinecrawlers there will be about 3 or 4 queens there to greet you with a darty death.
It is actually easier for me to snipe warp prisms than it is to snipe proxy pylons. I get around 3 queens every ZvT or vP anyway so I have reasonable air defense when a warpprism is coming to my base.
If you manage to get into an unscouted part of the zergs main and warp in there, sure. But a proxy pylon there would do the exact same thing. Not only would a proxy pylon make for a quicker rush, but its also cheaper.
This build is just about the most AA filled you can get in the early game as Z. Warpprisms are cool versus different types of zerg openings, but not really against a queen heavy style.
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Your build is epic Spanishiwa . I've adapted it to my style anhaven't lost a single game vs terran.Vs toss those baneling drops are so nasty its hilarious. Great stuff dude, improved my zerg from average to masters level having switched from toss  Cheers man
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Ok, tried it a few more times with a lot of success (mind you just in diamond so both sides making mistakes. Got told zerg is %&#$ing op by a 4 gater which always makes me happy.
A few lessons I have learned:
1. ZvP always drop 1-2 spines immediately to be able to fend off a rushed 1-2 zealots if needed, always drop spines 3-4 shortly thereafter if their expand isn't up fast (and even if it is up really). Seems like blind counter is the best way to shut down 4 gates and it doesn't cost much.
2. Against T (my best matchup by far) make sure to pull drones for bunker rushes, make 2-3 spines later on (later than against P) because hellions can run by 1 spine but will die trying to get by 3 (especially with queens to block). These same spines later make an anvil for your ling hammer, when the marines/tanks spread to shoot up the spines the speedlings get a great surround.
3. Roaches cost gas but the warren doesn't. I am trying to incorporate a warren into the build so, if you get hit by 4 gate with tons of zealots or he is really massing hellions, you can get 4-6 roaches with the initial gas instead of the lair/speed and defend much better than lings. Obviously if he expands and doesn't pressure the cost is minimal and the warren can be used later.
4. The usual "kill workers make some army, kill army make some workers applies", I have taken some super fast thirds after beating off a 4 gate or a 1 base push and then just roflstomped them later on, no point counter attacking when you can get way more ahead.
5. On the subject of getting more ahead, speedlings or mutas are great for expansion denial and this build can transition into any tech so those are decent options especially on big maps to regain map control fast in the midgame. The surprise of 50+ speedlings hiding in the back of a base where they couldn't scout (because of the spines) can cost people armies, mostly the marine tank or 1-2 thor push as well as zealot light attacks. They think it's just a few spines and queens then get rushed hard by the lings and obviously can't retreat.
I have had problems with blink ... the solution may be in roaches because they arent that bad against stalkers and can focus damage too fast for blink micro (really I don't care if he gets into my base, its the fact that I can never kill a stalker that loses me games). The fact is we are ahead on econ and a roach is half price compared to a stalker (and fast on creep) so there might be something there ... roaches and trying for a fast roach speed is what I'll experiment with next.
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What's stopping a Zerg from scouting the early spine and extra queens and pulling back, droning real hard while cutting corners since you are obviously unable to be aggressive any time soon? That was always my trouble with the heavier queen play in ZvZ.
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EPT
