[G] Spanishiwa's No Gas FE ZvX - Page 35

On April 19 2011 07:53 Yamulo wrote:

Sling run bys are not a problem with this build... do you wonder why he has the 2 queens on his ramp? and how do you plan to attack before static defense is up when his spines are in time for both 4 gate and 6 gate, i just don't see how you can read without reading the op... The op states "13 hatch 15 pool is slightly less efficient IF YOU HAVE TO MAKE EARLY LINGS", seconds how are you going to come into an op and flame the person who made it. Also how did minigun play poorly or respond is a bad way when he even stated he read this thread..... And from his stream he has enough queens to stop the "stalker harass" that you claim will end games. Ever consider the people that are using it versus you just aren't as good at the build? I mean making a blind statement without reading the op is one thing but then flaming it is another. But every play style has a weakness and i am pretty sure it isn't as glairing as you think. Also, he did it versus alot of the P on VT on bitters stream and he wasn't exploited in ways you talk about so idk.

On April 19 2011 17:43 Morfildur wrote:


I don't have the links, but i saw IIRC 2 casts where spanishiwa built 2 nydus tunnels and used both effectively. Also, ages ago (meaning 2-4 month), there was a game casted by day9 where a player used 2 nydus tunnels extremely effective for a mainly ultralisk based army.

Think about it: Against 1 nydus, you can pull workers... Against 2 you have to pull a part of your army back, so you are out of position and more vulnerable for an attack at another position. And if you fail to spot even one of them you have a whole army behind your lines destroying your production facilities and you can't even counter because it can move back almost instantly.

I understand that nydus worms are expensive, but they always force a player to react. You have to kill it, otherwise it can kill you in seconds.

On April 20 2011 00:46 Johnny_Vegas wrote:


Darkforce is 100% correct in that workers can kill not just 1, but 2 nydus worms. Also, the speed and awareness of the highest level players make it far easier for them to react in time to thwart the worms. There are a few factors that complicate the matter however, that some may overlook about nydus worms.

Analyzing the cost of Nydus Worms

On the surface Nydus worms are extremely expensive, but I'm going to attempt to make the case that their relative cost actually decreases as the zerg army grows larger. Furthermore once zerg is maxed, his options for getting value from his resources become more limited, therefore the supply cap effectively increases the value of nydus.

Example 1: 50 - 80 supply
+ Show Spoiler +

Example 2: 100 - 150 supply
+ Show Spoiler +


Example 3: 200 supply
+ Show Spoiler +


Some thoughts on multiple (simultaneous) nydus worms

First let me quote the BroodWar beta champion, and chief game designer of Riot Games (League of Legends), Zileas, a brilliant RTS mind whom I've had several discussions with over the years.

"Attention is a resource"
-Zileas

Much like Zileas's favorite tactic of storm dropping mineral lines, nydus worms have the effect of forcing a reaction by your opponent. Multiple worms force multiple reactions. Multiple worms in different locations, spawning at the same time, degrade your opponent's attention exponentially. The payoff here is that the zerg spends far less attention in creating the worms, than the opponent has to spend to deal with them.

You can say that at the highest level, players can deal with worms no problem, but conversely high level zergs could also be able to capitalize on the distraction better than lower level zergs, so this skill level argument might cancel each other.


Nydus trickery, and cost effectiveness

As Darkforce has stated, even 2 nydus can be taken down by workers. There are several techniques that can be employed to reduce that likelihood however. I think these tactics are too often dismissed or ignored when people simply think about nydus as a "gimmick".

- positioning nydus in locations where fewer harvesters could attack it, such as adjacent to buildings, and/or combined with multiple nydus adjacent to each other to reduce surface area even further.

- the zerg can obfuscate the mini-map by filling it full of either overlords, muta, etc... before spawning the worms. If a group of muta are flying around harassing, and 8 overlords are hovering over different parts of the enemy's vision, he can no longer easily spot the spawning nydus worm using the mini-map alone.

- A zerg can also force his nydus worms to spawn by using air units, or drops to create a "safe zone" that also has the effect of reducing the enemy's vision. For example, it is common for muta to pick off buildings on the outskirts of the enemy's base. Once these buildings are destroyed, the zerg can leave 1 muta behind for vision, move his mutas somewhere else, then spawn the nydus(s) in the "cleared" location with relative ease. Ovie drop attacks can work similarly. Back to the muta scenario, for remote bases defended by turrets and a planetary fortress, the scvs are powerless to stop the nydus, as the nydus can be spawned out of range of the PF, causing the scvs to be pulled to kill it, only to be sniped by the muta flock if they approach.

- Finally lets look at the cost effectiveness of a nydus worm when 8 workers are pulled from the line to kill it. If 8 workers lose 30 seconds of mining time killing a nydus worm, on an unsaturated base, they are losing (8x20) 160 minerals. But as seen in many games involving nydus, where workers kill the nydus, too many workers are often pulled, and/or the workers do not immediately return to mining (perhaps the zerg harasses/attacks in another location to cause this). If 12 workers spend 60 seconds, that is 480 minerals lost. So we can see that even "failed" nydus attempts can often cause economic damage.