EPTand expanding to your third? gl connecting that with creep
[G] Spanishiwa's No Gas FE ZvX - Page 6
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aliciakeyzz
United States26 Posts
and expanding to your third? gl connecting that with creep | ||
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
much much closer than to be anywhere near a comfort zone. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
Is it feasible to still do that? Say get a 3rd macro hatch and an aggressive 3th expo, say on hatch tech for very long, take fast 4th, and use pure queen/roach/ling/bling for a SICK economy then hardswitch into mutalisks (take all the gas)? basically bw style of expanding to ONLY get the gas and not the minerals (few drones on 3rd, but mostly take 3rd and 4th for the muta switch) | ||
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WomboCombo314
United States7 Posts
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DarkRise
1644 Posts
no one do this anymore coz everyone go pool first | ||
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Spanishiwa
United States91 Posts
If they bring all of their drones they might win. With proper micro and control it isn't an insta-loss, so really it's up to the user to win. It's better because if your opponent feels the need to all in you because he will be behind later on, then surely you outclass your opponent or your build is stronger than his (in either case, this is good). Yes, expanding to your third. Just look at the Jemag 5 gate replay. If you can hold a 5 gate, then what other type of all in can't you hold? @Morghaine Obviously I could have played it better, but this shows that even against a super super hard 4 gate it's possible to hold. Yes it was close, but was July vs MC close (no, it was a steam roll). Idra vs Cruncher? That's just the power of sentry FF and 4 gate. @evanthebouncy! Personally I think it would take too long and if you're going to stall that hard you might as well stall for hive tech units. That's essentially what this build aims to do, stall for ultras or broodlords. @DarkRise 16 hatch 15 pool is susceptible IMO because of the no speed zerglings trying to take on stalkers. This build uses queens and spine crawlers instead, which deal with stalkers much more handily. 2 gate stalker pressure will also set him behind economically unless he can deal critical damage. I have replays of me fending off early stalker pressure very easily then taking a huge economic lead and sealing the game from there (will upload upon request). | ||
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Asparagus
United States269 Posts
On April 03 2011 09:28 Spanishiwa wrote: I have replays of me fending off early stalker pressure very easily then taking a huge economic lead and sealing the game from there (will upload upon request). Why good sir, I would like to request these bad boys. :3 | ||
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theBIGdog
United States41 Posts
ZvZ: I've had the most success in ZvZ even defending the 7 pool + 2 spinecrawler build with only drones! I have a 100% win ratio in anything that's 14g/14p or 15 hatch and its easy to defend against these builds with well placed crawlers and queens. I even had a guy push at me with roaches and lings only to get stonewalled by 4 crawlers and my roaches popping at the last second. This game is vulnerable early game but once you get roach warren and +1/+1 on the way you get a huge surge of units and can end the game there if executed properly. I thought ZvZ would be the hardest matchup for this build but it turns out it's one of the easiest. My typical ZvZ would consist of 9 pooling, rushing 6 lings, and building 2 queens to block ramp then transition into mutas but this gives you the early queens to block the ramp plus another base... ZvP: This matchup I've had a little more trouble with on the ladder especially if they are able to contain you to two bases while expanding. I had a protoss blink stalker/zealot was able to keep my on two base and it was hard to land banelings and surrounds as necessary and he was able to snipe my third before I got crawlers up to defend. Against most of the builds this definitely works well. I was even 4-gated on slag pits with cannon support at their pylon and was able to hold since I had multiple crawlers and tons of lings to deal with it. You will always have the macro lead after you are fully saturated but at this point you must catch up in tech and try to deny their expos and expo yourself. Overall, solid build with good early game control and I cry everytime I get pylon blocked. ZvT: By far the hardest of the matchups because it just seems like once you are fully saturated you are so far behind in tech. Stim pushes are pretty holdable with slow banelings and upgraded lings but after that if they are going tanks its pretty hard to defend with just burrowed infestors and ling/bling. The best way to play this I've noticed to rush to mutas for instant control and try to get that 3rd/4th base gas up. Two bases is extremely hard to ball a sufficient amount of mutas. Against 2 rax it's defendable if your early game drone control is superb and if you have your queens out and a spine crawler up then it is super easy to repel. My only concern is that blue flame hellion into 10 min/marine siege tank push would be hard to defend yet haven't faced that yet on the ladder. I'd imagine to deal with that roach/ling/bling are going to be the best choice. Overall, a great and solid build that I've been using effectively against stiff competition. In the mirror matchup it is super solid since most players make early lings (instead of drones) for map control and then you just surge out of your base with a shitload of units. In the other matchup... I guess I'll have to watch more of your stream to see how you transition into dealing with different strategies. Thanks Spanish, TBD | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
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Kfish
Chile282 Posts
Thanks! | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
When do you lose, and why? | ||
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BinxyBrown
United States230 Posts
My thoughts of the build vs Zerg are pretty mixed but I feel like it's pretty bad in many situations in the match up (except vs 1 base play). When I look at the replay of you vs the speedling fast expand you actually seem behind in tech and drone count for almost the entire match, barely evening up at the end of the game, the one advantage you had was your queen count which decided the match, but I feel like he could have done the same thing as you had done. vs catz I also felt like you were behind, the investment in 3/4 spines seems to be about the same investment as they spend on earlier gas + ling speed. I appreciate all the effort you put into this build though, especially vs Terran and Protoss, also I've been watching your stream and I'm really impressed with the level of play. | ||
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Darkn3ss
United States717 Posts
Really digging the mindframe of the build. Definitely going to mess around with it. =) Thanks for sharing. xD | ||
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lkjewq
United States132 Posts
13(or 14) hatch/15 pool is more economical than your build and gets hatch down sooner. 16 hatching vs protoss just seems like more trouble than its worth (forge first, gate forge, etc). Also the late creep in the expo seems really annoying in ZvT. | ||
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Spanishiwa
United States91 Posts
@Kfish I used to have it thumbed up, but overlord positioning and creep spread on that map really made it more of a pain than it's worth. Just my opinion though, I'd love to play it in tournies, ladder? not so much @Acritter I lose (sometimes) to players who simply out play me, or if I forget to do something silly like block a ramp or build a critical building/upgrade. 2 rax bunker at the ramp is almost insta loss, so there's an example of forgetting to do something (patrol a drone). 2 rax close positions scv all in also accounts for like half of my losses because I'm still working out a way to defend. @Binkybrown Yes, the 3/4 spines was overkill. I didn't read it correctly, and that's all there is to it. But, that small 'behind' factor wasn't anything crucial or game deciding, so it's really just the user's fault. @lkjewq That very well could be the case, but I'm more comfortable with 16/15. It just lines up with the timings better for me. Cannon rushes are cannon rushes, if you defend them you're usually ahead. Even if you don't, cannons are a huge investment and as long as you delay his natural then you should be in good shape. Late creep in the expo ZvT isn't that big of a problem, except against 2 rax. Even then, it's only a problem in close positions IMO. | ||
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Redlol
United States181 Posts
The 16 Hatch/15 pool feels extremely well refined it lines up the minerals to produce double queens with the pool and hatch finishing. While there might be builds that are 50-100 minerals 'better,' I think the ease of timings is very, very important. I think what I like best about the build is that it's easy for me as a player who can only manage 10-20 games a week to isolate things I want to work on. For instance, recently I have felt like I over drone in the mid game, I make the right decisions on when to drone vs unit production, however I'll come out of the mid game with 90-100 drones rather than the ideal 70-80. This build places such importance on the number of drones that I consciously think about how many I have. While this doesn't necessarily make the build a good one(disclaimer: I love it) it does offer a stable platform for improving my mechanics, and I think the build can offer the same to any player. | ||
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VeryAverage
United States424 Posts
I need to dig up a replay, but the guy made about 4 spines and when I saw them with a scouting ling I basically just backed off and macroed up. I maxed out before he did and simply attacked. I did a 14gas/14pool with a hatch on 20 and when I poked with my first 4 lings, I saw spine crawlers. Although this is a pain in PvZ. It's been quite annoying for me. Not really allowed to put any early pressure on so they can drone pretty freely. I pulled some nifty move with a warp prism + high templars once, but other than that, it's been quite difficult to deal with. Seems like this would be better suited to just ZvP/T. | ||
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dementrio
678 Posts
On April 03 2011 09:28 Spanishiwa wrote: Yes, expanding to your third. Just look at the Jemag 5 gate replay. If you can hold a 5 gate, then what other type of all in can't you hold? The 1 gas stalker zealot one. stalkers can kite queens and you can't spine up when you expand to your 3rd. Also on half the map pool there's no 3rd you can take like that. | ||
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UncleSam
Spain62 Posts
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Adeeler
United Kingdom764 Posts
Also when i'm pulling it off and feeling blind I don't know exactly when to start injecting, i've been trying to after my 4th queen is out, but am at a loss if i'm actually getting behind by not injecting or not or if there is a time when I must start injecting or i'd be behind. | ||
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