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On April 07 2011 00:00 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 23:56 blackkiwi wrote:
What to do if ur opponent for example terran is going some sort of early expansion too? Iam totally lost every time they do 15 nexus or 1 rax orbtialcommand expand openings. Cause if i had scouted it i would go 7rr or something like that but ur built scouting timing is way to late to switch to such things I think this is actually the big weakness of this build. Also against a terran who goes for something like 2 rax into expand. once the terrans sees youre investing in stationary defense and queens (who are pretty stationary aswell) he could just take his third before you. Because of this i still think that using this build is developing bad habits. The thing is, on ladder, so many people play early pushes, and against that, this build is great, but if your opponent simply plays super greedy, you cannot punish him for that. Well, isn't that the case for any economic opening? For example, if someone opens 15 nexus against a Terran player who goes for a 15 CC, neither of them can punish one another, but both will have strong economies. I feel like greedy Terran openings aren't going to get their econ up as fast as greedy Zerg openings, b/c Zerg can make drones so much faster than Terran can make scvs.
Also, if Terran plays super greedy and takes a 3rd before teching, I don't think any amount of bunkers + MM can hold off a well executed ling/baneling attack off of 2 bases (especially if Terran is spread out between 3 bases).
I have tried this build a few times on ladder, but I inevitably end up with more money than I can spend b/c I'm not quite used to it. I try to do double evo chambers, lair, ling speed, roach warren, etc. all at the same time, but I still end up dying to a timing push with like 1-2k minerals in the bank. This is of course not a problem with the build, just a problem with my play. I think the build has a lot of potential, particularly on maps where the natural is not super wide open and it is easy to defend with spines.
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I tried it and when do you get you're 3rd 7 minutes?
Like i need soo much apm to do everything effectively, spread creep, spawn larvae, transfuse, macro, oh god. I had to throw down some macro hatches cause it just give me soo many minerals
I really like it but how do i transition out of it in ZvT/P? I was thinking get 4 gases at the same time then transition into mutas and roll, but then i realized my mutas were really late. For protoss i was thinking like Roach/Hydra push at 10~12 minutes, i havent tried it yet but it seems really good right now.
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@Spanishwa:
Could you discuss the rational behind going 16 hatch 15 pool instead of 15 hatch 14 pool or 14 hatch 14 pool? is 16/15 just a bit more economical, or does it have specific timings that require the extra drone?
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@lobotomist:
The OP has been updated to include this: Upon experimentation I've found to favor 13 hatchery 15 spawning pool over the 16 hatchery 15 spawning pool referenced in the build below.
From my reading and listening to his discussions, he felt that 16H/15P lined up very nicely. When presented with evidence that 13H/15P gives more larvae and minerals, as well as getting the hatch down earlier (making it harder to block), he adjusted his build.
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Nice, I especially liked how you so neatly organized the build into ZvX, multiple times. :D Great post.
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On April 07 2011 00:57 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 00:20 spacebarbarian wrote:On April 07 2011 00:00 DarKFoRcE wrote:On April 06 2011 23:56 blackkiwi wrote:
What to do if ur opponent for example terran is going some sort of early expansion too? Iam totally lost every time they do 15 nexus or 1 rax orbtialcommand expand openings. Cause if i had scouted it i would go 7rr or something like that but ur built scouting timing is way to late to switch to such things I think this is actually the big weakness of this build. Also against a terran who goes for something like 2 rax into expand. once the terrans sees youre investing in stationary defense and queens (who are pretty stationary aswell) he could just take his third before you. Because of this i still think that using this build is developing bad habits. The thing is, on ladder, so many people play early pushes, and against that, this build is great, but if your opponent simply plays super greedy, you cannot punish him for that. Hmm, I don't see how a terran could possibly expect to, and even if they tried, win a expand+saturate race against a zerg. Both droning and expanding is cheaper and faster for a Z, so if you see the T going for a third, then maybe just skip gas on the natural after the 40 food mark and expand again? I think the terran will eventually be playing catch up even if they have the head start from not getting those static defenses + the extra MULE. Well, this is your opinion. I think if you invest in static defense like this and if terran does not have to worry about early speedling attacks (super late gas) and he can very well compete and imo will even come out ahead against this build...
if you see them play greedy, do it yourself i altered the build for myself personally.
15hatch/15pool
drone till 18-ol
queen queen ling (when pool finishes)
scout and poke around with lings
if i see they are greedy, i only make 1 more queen and take a 3rd instead.
the only major weak point i'm experiencing is super hard aggression, however, pesudo aggression like 12rax/14rax, 5rine 1 hellion push, 1rax reaper FE I feel this build excels.
personally, I feel as the game progresses the game will become more like zvz in all matchups for zerg. zerg's opening "a" will be good against terran's opening "X,Y,Z", however, build "b" is weak to "X and Y" but works against "Z and Q" etc.
This build IS NOT the be-all-end-all but it is a good opening nonetheless.
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I really like this build.
But I always open with 11 pool 18 Hatch. I feel much more confortable with this opening.
Thx for posting this, it really improved my game 
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Anyone got replays of this build with the revised 13h 15p?
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I've tried this style out on ladder a bit, and IIRC Idrone uses something similar to this build, not sure if it is the exact build or not. As a general defensive build, it's pretty freaking fantastic. It absolutely crushes 4 gates and similar, but vs protoss I was having difficulty transitioning out into higher tech units. I feel it does lend itself to ling/bane style with the sheer econ and larva it provides, i'll have to toy with it somewhat but for me I absolutely want ling speed at a timing where I can apply pressure.
Will give it some more tries but think I'll maintain my high econ 1 gas builds that have been my staple for a while, I don't like the inability to attack, I feel it gives the opponent too much leniency.
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On April 07 2011 06:02 darkscream wrote:@darkforce, this build gives you such a booming economy, that Terran cannot keep up. The build relies on constant scouting more than most. If you see a command center, you throw down a hatchery, and in two rounds of injects the zerg 3rd is fully saturated. However, the real strength of this build is that you hit 2 base saturation, and you can just max on tier 1 with upgrades and attack. You get ling speed and a lair, then you get whatever the hell you want. That said, I have lost to bunker rushes on stupid maps that the queen/crawler defense isnt very good on. Shattered Temple makes you feel very safe with these defenses, metalopolis on the other hand is full of nooks and crannies to hide cannons and bunkers. This takes us back to "this build relies on constant scouting more than most." Constant drone and overlord scouting early is a must, and ling scouting later also a must. You don't need ling speed to spend 1 supply on 2 zerglings looking at the 2 most obvious places for the Terran's 3rd.
Again, this is just your opinion, yet you state it is a fact. You have no proof for this, just like i have no proof for my standpoint. The only difference is that i might have a bit more experience.
You talk about constant scouting. But it is alot harder to scout with Slow lings compared to Speedlings. If terran goes for 2 rax into double expand, he will have a good bunch of marines, it wont be so easy to even get to his natural. The 2 rax player can also apply quite some pressure (run around in front of your spine crawlers, kill tumors..) and you might invest in more spine crawlers. yet, for him, this is not a risk, because you dont have a mobile army to kill off his marines in case he retreats too late (which is what normally happens).
Anyway, if any decent player here feels like trying it, im willing to play terran against you using this build (my main race is zerg..). Surely your superior strategy should be able to compete against my lousy terran play ;p
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On April 07 2011 00:00 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 23:56 blackkiwi wrote:
What to do if ur opponent for example terran is going some sort of early expansion too? Iam totally lost every time they do 15 nexus or 1 rax orbtialcommand expand openings. Cause if i had scouted it i would go 7rr or something like that but ur built scouting timing is way to late to switch to such things I think this is actually the big weakness of this build. Also against a terran who goes for something like 2 rax into expand. once the terrans sees youre investing in stationary defense and queens (who are pretty stationary aswell) he could just take his third before you. Because of this i still think that using this build is developing bad habits. The thing is, on ladder, so many people play early pushes, and against that, this build is great, but if your opponent simply plays super greedy, you cannot punish him for that.
On stream vVvfuture (protoss) expanded twice on xelnaga so quickly and spanish could do nothing to stop it.
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On April 07 2011 17:47 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 06:02 darkscream wrote:On April 06 2011 19:27 Acritter wrote:
Seven Roach Rush.
@darkforce, this build gives you such a booming economy, that Terran cannot keep up. The build relies on constant scouting more than most. If you see a command center, you throw down a hatchery, and in two rounds of injects the zerg 3rd is fully saturated. However, the real strength of this build is that you hit 2 base saturation, and you can just max on tier 1 with upgrades and attack. You get ling speed and a lair, then you get whatever the hell you want. That said, I have lost to bunker rushes on stupid maps that the queen/crawler defense isnt very good on. Shattered Temple makes you feel very safe with these defenses, metalopolis on the other hand is full of nooks and crannies to hide cannons and bunkers. This takes us back to "this build relies on constant scouting more than most." Constant drone and overlord scouting early is a must, and ling scouting later also a must. You don't need ling speed to spend 1 supply on 2 zerglings looking at the 2 most obvious places for the Terran's 3rd. Again, this is just your opinion, yet you state it is a fact. You have no proof for this, just like i have no proof for my standpoint. The only difference is that i might have a bit more experience. You talk about constant scouting. But it is alot harder to scout with Slow lings compared to Speedlings. If terran goes for 2 rax into double expand, he will have a good bunch of marines, it wont be so easy to even get to his natural. The 2 rax player can also apply quite some pressure (run around in front of your spine crawlers, kill tumors..) and you might invest in more spine crawlers. yet, for him, this is not a risk, because you dont have a mobile army to kill off his marines in case he retreats too late (which is what normally happens). Anyway, if any decent player here feels like trying it, im willing to play terran against you using this build (my main race is zerg..). Surely your superior strategy should be able to compete against my lousy terran play ;p
It seems to me that you're just really biased against this build. I don't see how a 2 rax double expand could work. That's 800 minerals (and countless scvs) that aren't marines. You may have enough to contain the zerg, but once your "double expansion" happens, you have to pull back. Also, with a couple spine crawlers and queens, he can slowly move spine crawlers forward one at a time to crush any bunker contain. The only thing killing tumors will do is prevent mobility of ground units. As for vision and scouting, zerg still has overlords. At least one should be near the opponents base to scout, or at least by the expansion to see if the terran is expanding.
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On April 07 2011 18:09 aliciakeyzz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 00:00 DarKFoRcE wrote:On April 06 2011 23:56 blackkiwi wrote:
What to do if ur opponent for example terran is going some sort of early expansion too? Iam totally lost every time they do 15 nexus or 1 rax orbtialcommand expand openings. Cause if i had scouted it i would go 7rr or something like that but ur built scouting timing is way to late to switch to such things I think this is actually the big weakness of this build. Also against a terran who goes for something like 2 rax into expand. once the terrans sees youre investing in stationary defense and queens (who are pretty stationary aswell) he could just take his third before you. Because of this i still think that using this build is developing bad habits. The thing is, on ladder, so many people play early pushes, and against that, this build is great, but if your opponent simply plays super greedy, you cannot punish him for that. On stream vVvfuture (protoss) expanded twice on xelnaga so quickly and spanish could do nothing to stop it.
did spanish know of the double expand and was unable to do anything? If so, that's pretty bad. Or did he not scout it until the double expand was fully up and already running?
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On April 07 2011 18:20 themell wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 17:47 DarKFoRcE wrote:On April 07 2011 06:02 darkscream wrote:On April 06 2011 19:27 Acritter wrote:
Seven Roach Rush.
@darkforce, this build gives you such a booming economy, that Terran cannot keep up. The build relies on constant scouting more than most. If you see a command center, you throw down a hatchery, and in two rounds of injects the zerg 3rd is fully saturated. However, the real strength of this build is that you hit 2 base saturation, and you can just max on tier 1 with upgrades and attack. You get ling speed and a lair, then you get whatever the hell you want. That said, I have lost to bunker rushes on stupid maps that the queen/crawler defense isnt very good on. Shattered Temple makes you feel very safe with these defenses, metalopolis on the other hand is full of nooks and crannies to hide cannons and bunkers. This takes us back to "this build relies on constant scouting more than most." Constant drone and overlord scouting early is a must, and ling scouting later also a must. You don't need ling speed to spend 1 supply on 2 zerglings looking at the 2 most obvious places for the Terran's 3rd. Again, this is just your opinion, yet you state it is a fact. You have no proof for this, just like i have no proof for my standpoint. The only difference is that i might have a bit more experience. You talk about constant scouting. But it is alot harder to scout with Slow lings compared to Speedlings. If terran goes for 2 rax into double expand, he will have a good bunch of marines, it wont be so easy to even get to his natural. The 2 rax player can also apply quite some pressure (run around in front of your spine crawlers, kill tumors..) and you might invest in more spine crawlers. yet, for him, this is not a risk, because you dont have a mobile army to kill off his marines in case he retreats too late (which is what normally happens). Anyway, if any decent player here feels like trying it, im willing to play terran against you using this build (my main race is zerg..). Surely your superior strategy should be able to compete against my lousy terran play ;p It seems to me that you're just really biased against this build. I don't see how a 2 rax double expand could work. That's 800 minerals (and countless scvs) that aren't marines. You may have enough to contain the zerg, but once your "double expansion" happens, you have to pull back. Also, with a couple spine crawlers and queens, he can slowly move spine crawlers forward one at a time to crush any bunker contain. The only thing killing tumors will do is prevent mobility of ground units. As for vision and scouting, zerg still has overlords. At least one should be near the opponents base to scout, or at least by the expansion to see if the terran is expanding.
Yes im really biased against this build because it is completely counterintuitive to abandon mapcontrol with zerg and invest in static defense. This is ok against a 1 basing opponent who goes for some kind of allin, but not against 2 or more bases.
Also, not being able to spread creep means that terran will be able to push much faster later on, because he does not have to kill as much creep on the way.
I dont know Spanishiwa at all, so its nothing personal, i just think that overvalueing this build will develop bad habits.
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Spanishiwa : I have a specific question about your build. What would you do if, on a 4 players map, you can't make it to the Terran base in time to steal the second gas?
Do you think there is any way to stop a 2 port cloak banshee with this build, or should I transition and grab a gas as soon as I realize I couldn't gas steal him?
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Since alot of ppl are advising newer players to focus on just 1 build, and since there is a lot of discussion going on about this build, do you people think that it is an advisable build for someone trying to lern zerg macro, and getting out of bronze?
I kinda like the idea of using 1 build for all 3 matchups so i get better at doing that one. And in 99% of my games ppl put up early pressure so i rly started liking this particular BO.
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On April 07 2011 19:25 Fuzy wrote:
Since alot of ppl are advising newer players to focus on just 1 build, and since there is a lot of discussion going on about this build, do you people think that it is an advisable build for someone trying to lern zerg macro, and getting out of bronze?
I kinda like the idea of using 1 build for all 3 matchups so i get better at doing that one. And in 99% of my games ppl put up early pressure so i rly started liking this particular BO.
I would not advise doing this build / style for learning and getting out of bronze. This build is very technical and requires practice and time to execute well. I would find standard styles from IdrA vods or watch a Day 9 daily with a zerg player, steal those builds/styles and good with macro before trying something like Spawishiwa's style.
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On April 07 2011 19:23 Ahelvin wrote:
Spanishiwa : I have a specific question about your build. What would you do if, on a 4 players map, you can't make it to the Terran base in time to steal the second gas?
Do you think there is any way to stop a 2 port cloak banshee with this build, or should I transition and grab a gas as soon as I realize I couldn't gas steal him?
Throw down an evo when u scout it or have the intuition (depending on the front of Ts base) that he will go cloakbanshee. your 4 queens + 2 spores should holf off any early banshee play.
To the controversaty with darkforce, i can just agree with him. It is a nice build for gold-plat-dia ladder players because there are many 1base plays and the T doesnt always play aggressive with his marines and doesnt kill of tumors etc etc etc
For me this build is working out often enough to use it sometimes but i can see how on higher level of play it is just a very situational build and thus won't worka as often and even less when its used more.
The factor of mapcontrol is true, u just cant disagree with this. Sure in Diamond i can still have mapcontrol with slow lings, but thats just because of the "bad" play from the T. Try to kill 8-10 marines with slow lings off creep, hf
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Love builds like this. This is actually how I've played all my matchups when I roll zerg (I'm random) and I have about an 85% win rate with that race, but I never thought to go quite this long without gas. I'm usually at about the10 minute mark (mas o menos) about to start my third base then I go balls to the wall gas.
I think there's points of the build where you could get a little bit of gas to get at least a little tech without sacrificing much in terms of ling/drone/queen/expansion speed. Definitely something I'm going to toy with, as this build is intriguing to say the least.
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EPT
