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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
I feel like even if it gets "figured out," trying to make it work in all of my match ups has made my macro SO much better. There's nothing like having to worry about mid/late-game injects and creep spread in the early game. I've been having trouble with macro Terrans that recognize the style and use the initial ramp up time to take an early 3rd, but it's probably due to me not macroing hard enough. Thanks again Spanishiwa! | ||
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VictorX
United States773 Posts
On April 08 2011 04:30 IPA wrote: Loving these guys calling out DarkForce, a proven Euro Zerg power, like he doesn't know what he is talking about. "B-but it worked in my gold league!!" I don't think he is calling out the build itself as terrible or useless, just that it builds habits that are counter-intuitive to the race's strengths. If you have a solid grasp of fundamentals and several different builds in your repertoire, there's no reason why you can't add this one. I wasn't trying to call out DarkForce, I know he is a pro, the guy's on liquipedia ;p I also have doubts about it's power in ZvZ, because I find being unable to scout the opponent constantly to be unnerving (because of the speed of a zerg push compared to terran and toss) I think what DarkForce is arguing is that giving up map control between 20 food and 50 food is bad, but I have found through playing in masters (now 30 games of experience) that after the dark period of 20-50 food is over, you end up with full saturation quicker, more map control, and more options. He is very right that the biggest problem is that it puts 0 pressure, therefor allowing a reactive opponent to out-macro you once he scouts that you are not taking gas at all. My solution so far is double expanding to match a quick third, or dedicating to heavy harassment. Whether this will fail me in the future is too early to tell, Spanishwa definitely has more experience on the weaknesses of the build against greedy econ play than I do. (he's already admitted it dies to 2rax all in) In a way Spanishwa's build is an econ risk. Something must be given up to secure such a quick economy, and that thing is total map control exerted by early speedlings. By cutting speedlings (cutting gas), you get more drones, faster. As to some people concerned about being unable to spread creep without lings, this is absolutely true. I find it very easy to simply spread creep around their army, into "tasteless secret hallway" and other alternative routes. Also it's not hard to just postpone creep, having active tumors stockpiled on the edge of his army, ready to push out as soon as your first two rounds of speedlings are moving out to re-establish map control. But a camped army in the middle of map denies creep like no other, and is definitely a weakness when you don't have enough creep to immediately and safely throw down a third against air play (queens can't get there) | ||
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OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
On April 07 2011 18:26 DarKFoRcE wrote: Yes im really biased against this build because it is completely counterintuitive to abandon mapcontrol with zerg and invest in static defense. This is ok against a 1 basing opponent who goes for some kind of allin, but not against 2 or more bases. Also, not being able to spread creep means that terran will be able to push much faster later on, because he does not have to kill as much creep on the way. I dont know Spanishiwa at all, so its nothing personal, i just think that overvalueing this build will develop bad habits. Your arguments are solid and I won't argue against them, but perhaps this is the mindset of Zergs keeping them from exploring new things? The fact that they have to work so hard to refine everything and then it just doesn't work maybe warps their sense of reality a bit, denying to try new things and explore the unknown? It's really hard to explain with words, but I feel that Spanishiwa and everyone else who is trying this build is definitely pushing starcraft further, regardless if this build turns out to have too big flaws or not. | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On April 08 2011 06:45 VictorX wrote: I wasn't trying to call out DarkForce, I know he is a pro, the guy's on liquipedia ;p I also have doubts about it's power in ZvZ, because I find being unable to scout the opponent constantly to be unnerving (because of the speed of a zerg push compared to terran and toss) I think what DarkForce is arguing is that giving up map control between 20 food and 50 food is bad, but I have found through playing in masters (now 30 games of experience) that after the dark period of 20-50 food is over, you end up with full saturation quicker, more map control, and more options. He is very right that the biggest problem is that it puts 0 pressure, therefor allowing a reactive opponent to out-macro you once he scouts that you are not taking gas at all. My solution so far is double expanding to match a quick third, or dedicating to heavy harassment. Whether this will fail me in the future is too early to tell, Spanishwa definitely has more experience on the weaknesses of the build against greedy econ play than I do. (he's already admitted it dies to 2rax all in) In a way Spanishwa's build is an econ risk. Something must be given up to secure such a quick economy, and that thing is total map control exerted by early speedlings. By cutting speedlings (cutting gas), you get more drones, faster. As to some people concerned about being unable to spread creep without lings, this is absolutely true. I find it very easy to simply spread creep around their army, into "tasteless secret hallway" and other alternative routes. Also it's not hard to just postpone creep, having active tumors stockpiled on the edge of his army, ready to push out as soon as your first two rounds of speedlings are moving out to re-establish map control. But a camped army in the middle of map denies creep like no other, and is definitely a weakness when you don't have enough creep to immediately and safely throw down a third against air play (queens can't get there) When you take gas as late as 40 you dont suddenly have Zerglingspeed finished at 50 supply. And mapcontrol without Zerglingspeed is not something that happens very often. taking gas at 40 means that it takes a little less than 3 more minutes (ingame time) until you have zergling speed done (after taking gas). so, at 2 hatcheries and 9 larvae per hatch per minute you should be at like 90 food when you finally have zergling speed. assuming a little over 1 supply per larvae. On April 08 2011 06:52 OutlaW- wrote: Your arguments are solid and I won't argue against them, but perhaps this is the mindset of Zergs keeping them from exploring new things? The fact that they have to work so hard to refine everything and then it just doesn't work maybe warps their sense of reality a bit, denying to try new things and explore the unknown? It's really hard to explain with words, but I feel that Spanishiwa and everyone else who is trying this build is definitely pushing starcraft further, regardless if this build turns out to have too big flaws or not. Maybe this is the case, we will most likely never know. But i personally think its a good attitude to be very very critical of a new build order, otherwise you will implement alot of bad habits in your play. Im very open to trying things, but i put a lot of value into my intuition when it comes to whether a build might be viable or not. And as i pointed out in another post, the build seems just so completely counterintuitive that i do not see it worth putting in alot of time. The advantage we humans have over a computer is that we can detect patterns and thus dont have to do everything by trial and error. The thing is, as i said, this build is good against certain things (especially 1 base allins), but once a very good player has played against this 1-2 times he should be able to exploit it properly (faking aggression to force crawlers, expanding but denying the slowlings from scouting it early - on some maps you cant use ovis to scout his natural). Now you might say that it is a good build to play once in a series to surprise your opponent. But the problem with this is that your opponent will be able to keep his scouting worker alive until at least ~30 seconds after your pool finishes, that means, he will be able to see that even until then you have not taken your gas, thus he knows he will be very save. if you take gas after you have killed his worker in order to throw him off, it will take another 3:15 until you have zergling speed done, with which you could get aggressive. that is very late. | ||
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soupchicken
United States322 Posts
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VictorX
United States773 Posts
On April 08 2011 07:38 DarKFoRcE wrote: When you take gas as late as 40 you dont suddenly have Zerglingspeed finished at 50 supply. And mapcontrol without Zerglingspeed is not something that happens very often. taking gas at 40 means that it takes a little less than 3 more minutes (ingame time) until you have zergling speed done (after taking gas). so, at 2 hatcheries and 9 larvae per hatch per minute you should be at like 90 food when you finally have zergling speed. assuming a little over 1 supply per larvae. Very true, maybe it can be incorporated to mine 1 gas at a certain time so that ling speed completes as the second round of speedlings complete, so that map control doesn't arrive as late? I'll have to try this Thank you for your observation ^^ | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
On April 08 2011 07:44 soupchicken wrote: I feel like this is the kind of build that a player would throw out once in a bo5 or bo7 to great effect. This is my thoughts exactly. It's an interesting strat, one that can catch an oppenent off guard, but simply making it a standard build will end up having you get countered every single time | ||
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Kogut
United States147 Posts
DF: I hope the people blindly bashing you don't cause you to remove yourself from discussions such as this build in the future. I, for one, always search out your blue posts in new Z strat threads, as you have good things to say. Can't help but feel like you might be able to get some more insight to the points you bring up if you played around with the build a bit. | ||
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pwadoc
271 Posts
On April 08 2011 07:38 DarKFoRcE wrote: The thing is, as i said, this build is good against certain things (especially 1 base allins), but once a very good player has played against this 1-2 times he should be able to exploit it properly (faking aggression to force crawlers, expanding but denying the slowlings from scouting it early - on some maps you cant use ovis to scout his natural). Now you might say that it is a good build to play once in a series to surprise your opponent. But the problem with this is that your opponent will be able to keep his scouting worker alive until at least ~30 seconds after your pool finishes, that means, he will be able to see that even until then you have not taken your gas, thus he knows he will be very save. if you take gas after you have killed his worker in order to throw him off, it will take another 3:15 until you have zergling speed done, with which you could get aggressive. that is very late. I was a bit dubious of this build before I tried it, but what I found surprising is the strength of the offensive midgame it affords once you've thrown down the 4 gas. When I go back and watch my replays, very often my opponent has pulled even with me on econ (P or T, Z is usually a bit behind), but while with other builds I'm often struggling in the early-midgame to get enough units out to stop strong pushes, with this build my midgame army emerges all at once from one or two larva injects and ends up being strong enough to hold the push and reinforce (usually ending the game). I haven't quite figured out yet why this is, but there seems to be something about the zerg midgame that everyone has been missing until now. My opponents cannot push in the midgame without me overwhelming them. | ||
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proxY_
United States1561 Posts
I'm a bit more dubious of the build in zvt and zvp, particularly zvp because I feel like it's almost a given that a good player will be there in time to block the hatch with their probe or a pylon. ZvT I just feel so much safer getting speed up (I still hatch first but don't delay the gas as much), it's something that I have to look at the timings more on. | ||
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fusihunter
Australia208 Posts
I also watched your MrBitter VOD yesterday. I'm still a bit skeptical about ZvT but i think ZvP it has alot of advantages. Well done sir! | ||
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thesideshow
930 Posts
On April 08 2011 08:51 Kogut wrote: Everyone who says this build is for BoX only and isn't actually contributing: What should people practice on ladder for the "1 build to rule them all" type of practice? Either you go against Day[9] and many other pro's opinions, or you must have a better build than this one in mind. OT: I think you should choose a standard build order for general practice (as in for lower level players). You can get a lot of help for more standard builds. This way, you can focus on practicing your execution. Specifically, I reached masters by only doing speedling expand for every matchup. | ||
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[Atomic]Peace
United States451 Posts
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wattabeast
United States957 Posts
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malphigian
United States68 Posts
On April 07 2011 21:14 CoMMoDuS wrote: amazing demostration of this build vs cruncher on typhon peaks: http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/45559 Wow. I have to imagine we're going to see at least 2 or 3 big casters record casts of that one. Man, that ending so brutal. | ||
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Balor
United States147 Posts
you threw up 5-6 spoines with no conclusive evidence of a 4 gate was acually coming, and even then you should not have held if the opponent had played correctly. Maybe your seeing something im not but it seems that could have easily been a 3 gate expo and you would have been MASSIVELY behind.I like the thinking, but going withou ling speed is asking for trouble. I would also wonder how this build would work vs some very early double stalker pressure on open nats. Would like to see more reps vs 4 gates that dont include blind counters | ||
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Infested-Mind
Korea (South)7 Posts
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garlicface
Canada4196 Posts
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imbecile
563 Posts
14 hatch, 16 pool, 18 overlord, then pool hatch and overlord pop at same time and it's double queen and a pair of zerglings for scouting and back to droning. Next overlord at 28, by then either gas or spines and evos depending on matchup, map and opponent aggression and the next double queen and back to droning. I don't like the odd numbers of extractor tricks, and the only points where getting supply capped really happens is at 28 or 36, so I just plop down the two gas I need to overcome the block and not waste larva until the overlord pops, since gas doesn't hurt at this time anyway. It's just faster tech then instead of bigger eco. | ||
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JaqMs
United States73 Posts
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