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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
I can see this working ZvZ vs 14gas 13/14pool, because it's basically how dimaga has been playing for months. But in the other matchups... no... only if you're playing on the US server, where people compete to invent the most stupid strategies. I don't doubt that it might work perfectly in certain situations. But it won't be stable. Especially vs people feigning pressure and denying information. | ||
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Betalump
United States109 Posts
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
On April 08 2011 07:38 DarKFoRcE wrote: When you take gas as late as 40 you dont suddenly have Zerglingspeed finished at 50 supply. And mapcontrol without Zerglingspeed is not something that happens very often. taking gas at 40 means that it takes a little less than 3 more minutes (ingame time) until you have zergling speed done (after taking gas). so, at 2 hatcheries and 9 larvae per hatch per minute you should be at like 90 food when you finally have zergling speed. assuming a little over 1 supply per larvae. Maybe this is the case, we will most likely never know. But i personally think its a good attitude to be very very critical of a new build order, otherwise you will implement alot of bad habits in your play. Im very open to trying things, but i put a lot of value into my intuition when it comes to whether a build might be viable or not. And as i pointed out in another post, the build seems just so completely counterintuitive that i do not see it worth putting in alot of time. The advantage we humans have over a computer is that we can detect patterns and thus dont have to do everything by trial and error. The thing is, as i said, this build is good against certain things (especially 1 base allins), but once a very good player has played against this 1-2 times he should be able to exploit it properly (faking aggression to force crawlers, expanding but denying the slowlings from scouting it early - on some maps you cant use ovis to scout his natural). Now you might say that it is a good build to play once in a series to surprise your opponent. But the problem with this is that your opponent will be able to keep his scouting worker alive until at least ~30 seconds after your pool finishes, that means, he will be able to see that even until then you have not taken your gas, thus he knows he will be very save. if you take gas after you have killed his worker in order to throw him off, it will take another 3:15 until you have zergling speed done, with which you could get aggressive. that is very late. Obviously am I in no way a good player (only diamond), but I have had moderate success in chess and one thing that stuck out when learning chess openings is that some openings make absolutely no intuitive sense. A common theme in chess openings is "try to gain control in the center and develop your pieces into a good position and have a plan", however, there are certain strategies that intentionally give up control over the center in order to gain an advantage in tempo, or even strategies which sacrifice positional advantage and be agressive (Something which bobby fischer was excellent at). The most "optimal" strategy for white is always e4, however, it is such a common opening that it's basically solved for grandmasters. Some openings, such as the sicilian defense, makes absolutely no sense when you first learn, but only as you begin to learn the intricacies after playing, can one truly understand the purpose of this opening and how it works and why it works. Some of these openings took decades for players to figure out and only after a sufficient amount of time would a grandmaster declare that a "opening was inferior". Usually the build would get picked up again by another grandmaster and discover a new line that fixes the problems initially thought. The other thing to note is that strategies have costs. Let's say that in starcraft you can pick to spend resources for the following Scouting Teching Expanding Applying Pressure Map Control Tempo (forcing your opponent to react to your actions) If you spend a lot of resources on scouting and teching, you will have less resources for expanding, etc. The other important thing is trying to figure out the relative value of each. For example, protoss can skip a robo and do 4 gate which gives you pressure, map control and tempo at the sacrifice of expanding, teching and scouting. The question is, how often will someone lose with a 4 gate if they don't scout? The answer depends on what the opponent is doing, but most often, 4 gate is safe until the mid game since you are forcing your opponent to react to your actions. An example (not perfect) might be Idra. He is an amazing player and the way he plays zerg is by doing the following. 1. Scouting, he gets early ling speed in order to do this. Costs 100 gas and several hundred minerals for speedlings, plus it takes up quite a few actions 2. Teching. Since he prefers an expanding style of play, he delays teching until he has 2 bases up and running. 3. Expanding. He expands the moment he feels he is safe to do so (which is optimal). Expanding sometimes will cost him a game if the opponent is using an agressive build 4. Agression/pressure. Very rarely does he play agressively, the style he most succeeds at is with getting a larger army than his opponent and using his economy, thus he sacrifices this 4. Map control. With speedlings and overlords, he usually has great map control. This usually costs him 300-400 mineral in overlords per game. 5. Tempo. He completely ignores tempo. His playstyle revolves around scouting his opponent, discovering their strategy and countering it with the right strategy. Is this style (Idra's) the best way or only way to play zerg? Possibly, but as a new game I have a feeling that it might not be the case. When you say things like "This develops bad habits" it's true if you wish to play in a specific style. They said the same thing about tiger woods. Tiger woods, according to golf experts, has a terrible swing and they warn all their students to not learn it like he does, but obviously it wins him tournaments.However, maybe zerg IS supposed to be the teching race. Maybe zerg doesn't need to expand.Heck no one even discovered the power of mutas until much later on in bw. Maybe zerg only needs to get to 2 base with 1 macro hatch? How will we know if it's optimal? If players (pros specifically, or even semi-pros) try it out, regardless of what happens, then we can learn more. Obviously for tournaments, pros should use whatever strategy is most optimal, but in chess, and hopefully in starcraft, good players will spend a lot of time trying out new builds and even new styles of playing. Unless we try, no one will know. I think the great thing about starcraft is that over time, anyone (including gold players and below) can and will contribute to the community. If games were perfectly intuitive, then everyone would be a bobby fischer. Every build has a weakness, but maybe this build will result in a higher win ratio for zerg, only time will tell. Edit; One thing to also note is that in chess, one strategic skill is, when you opponent is trying to force you to react to a threat, completely ignore it. If you feel like you can get away with not scouting, then do it. In chess, maybe your opponent has put a rook on an open column, and the intuitive reaction might be to counter it with your own rook, but maybe instead, you sacrifice that column and apply pressure elsewhere. In starcraft, for protoss, even IF the opponent is going fast banshee, if you make an early robo to get out an observer, it might cost too much in resources and lose you the game. The common adage is "If there are mutas in your base, go freaking kill him (completely ignoring the mutas)" | ||
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trakAus
Australia30 Posts
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dementrio
678 Posts
As I see it, 2 spines are not cheaper than 100 gas, and they broadcast "no rush till 10:00". I don't see how you can come out ahead of that, I can be waay greedier than you. | ||
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Kar98
Australia924 Posts
 . I've held off 2rax, 2 port banshees, 4gates and bane/roach all ins with this build and I'm finally winning ZvZ's. I feel it's the transfuses which give the build a huge advantage, later tonight I'll post a replay where I'm severly down in army size but my 2 spine crawlers and 3 queens hold off due to transffuses :D | ||
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soupchicken
United States322 Posts
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nyc863
200 Posts
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Zero.Tha.Hero
Canada155 Posts
11.04.07-20.41 ZvZ (ZeroThaHero - W@216apm, skimpaint - L@126apm) Scrap Station 11.04.07-19.35 ZvP (ZeroThaHero - W@210apm, Doomisonfiya - L@77apm) The Shattered Temple 11.04.07-19.20 ZvT (ZeroThaHero - W@214apm, Lokil - L@82apm) The Shattered Temple The build shined quite well in each of these three examples, playing high/mid diamond. I had difficulty macroing fast enough in some games, as this opening had such high economy I couldn't spend it fast enough (because my macro is bad 0.0 ). Also, this is the best post ever. Extremely eloquent, equally convincing: On April 08 2011 15:11 darmousseh wrote: + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + On April 08 2011 07:38 DarKFoRcE wrote: When you take gas as late as 40 you dont suddenly have Zerglingspeed finished at 50 supply. And mapcontrol without Zerglingspeed is not something that happens very often. taking gas at 40 means that it takes a little less than 3 more minutes (ingame time) until you have zergling speed done (after taking gas). so, at 2 hatcheries and 9 larvae per hatch per minute you should be at like 90 food when you finally have zergling speed. assuming a little over 1 supply per larvae. Maybe this is the case, we will most likely never know. But i personally think its a good attitude to be very very critical of a new build order, otherwise you will implement alot of bad habits in your play. Im very open to trying things, but i put a lot of value into my intuition when it comes to whether a build might be viable or not. And as i pointed out in another post, the build seems just so completely counterintuitive that i do not see it worth putting in alot of time. The advantage we humans have over a computer is that we can detect patterns and thus dont have to do everything by trial and error. The thing is, as i said, this build is good against certain things (especially 1 base allins), but once a very good player has played against this 1-2 times he should be able to exploit it properly (faking aggression to force crawlers, expanding but denying the slowlings from scouting it early - on some maps you cant use ovis to scout his natural). Now you might say that it is a good build to play once in a series to surprise your opponent. But the problem with this is that your opponent will be able to keep his scouting worker alive until at least ~30 seconds after your pool finishes, that means, he will be able to see that even until then you have not taken your gas, thus he knows he will be very save. if you take gas after you have killed his worker in order to throw him off, it will take another 3:15 until you have zergling speed done, with which you could get aggressive. that is very late. Obviously am I in no way a good player (only diamond), but I have had moderate success in chess and one thing that stuck out when learning chess openings is that some openings make absolutely no intuitive sense. A common theme in chess openings is "try to gain control in the center and develop your pieces into a good position and have a plan", however, there are certain strategies that intentionally give up control over the center in order to gain an advantage in tempo, or even strategies which sacrifice positional advantage and be agressive (Something which bobby fischer was excellent at). The most "optimal" strategy for white is always e4, however, it is such a common opening that it's basically solved for grandmasters. Some openings, such as the sicilian defense, makes absolutely no sense when you first learn, but only as you begin to learn the intricacies after playing, can one truly understand the purpose of this opening and how it works and why it works. Some of these openings took decades for players to figure out and only after a sufficient amount of time would a grandmaster declare that a "opening was inferior". Usually the build would get picked up again by another grandmaster and discover a new line that fixes the problems initially thought. The other thing to note is that strategies have costs. Let's say that in starcraft you can pick to spend resources for the following Scouting Teching Expanding Applying Pressure Map Control Tempo (forcing your opponent to react to your actions) If you spend a lot of resources on scouting and teching, you will have less resources for expanding, etc. The other important thing is trying to figure out the relative value of each. For example, protoss can skip a robo and do 4 gate which gives you pressure, map control and tempo at the sacrifice of expanding, teching and scouting. The question is, how often will someone lose with a 4 gate if they don't scout? The answer depends on what the opponent is doing, but most often, 4 gate is safe until the mid game since you are forcing your opponent to react to your actions. An example (not perfect) might be Idra. He is an amazing player and the way he plays zerg is by doing the following. 1. Scouting, he gets early ling speed in order to do this. Costs 100 gas and several hundred minerals for speedlings, plus it takes up quite a few actions 2. Teching. Since he prefers an expanding style of play, he delays teching until he has 2 bases up and running. 3. Expanding. He expands the moment he feels he is safe to do so (which is optimal). Expanding sometimes will cost him a game if the opponent is using an agressive build 4. Agression/pressure. Very rarely does he play agressively, the style he most succeeds at is with getting a larger army than his opponent and using his economy, thus he sacrifices this 4. Map control. With speedlings and overlords, he usually has great map control. This usually costs him 300-400 mineral in overlords per game. 5. Tempo. He completely ignores tempo. His playstyle revolves around scouting his opponent, discovering their strategy and countering it with the right strategy. Is this style (Idra's) the best way or only way to play zerg? Possibly, but as a new game I have a feeling that it might not be the case. When you say things like "This develops bad habits" it's true if you wish to play in a specific style. They said the same thing about tiger woods. Tiger woods, according to golf experts, has a terrible swing and they warn all their students to not learn it like he does, but obviously it wins him tournaments.However, maybe zerg IS supposed to be the teching race. Maybe zerg doesn't need to expand.Heck no one even discovered the power of mutas until much later on in bw. Maybe zerg only needs to get to 2 base with 1 macro hatch? How will we know if it's optimal? If players (pros specifically, or even semi-pros) try it out, regardless of what happens, then we can learn more. Obviously for tournaments, pros should use whatever strategy is most optimal, but in chess, and hopefully in starcraft, good players will spend a lot of time trying out new builds and even new styles of playing. Unless we try, no one will know. I think the great thing about starcraft is that over time, anyone (including gold players and below) can and will contribute to the community. If games were perfectly intuitive, then everyone would be a bobby fischer. Every build has a weakness, but maybe this build will result in a higher win ratio for zerg, only time will tell. Edit; One thing to also note is that in chess, one strategic skill is, when you opponent is trying to force you to react to a threat, completely ignore it. If you feel like you can get away with not scouting, then do it. In chess, maybe your opponent has put a rook on an open column, and the intuitive reaction might be to counter it with your own rook, but maybe instead, you sacrifice that column and apply pressure elsewhere. In starcraft, for protoss, even IF the opponent is going fast banshee, if you make an early robo to get out an observer, it might cost too much in resources and lose you the game. The common adage is "If there are mutas in your base, go freaking kill him (completely ignoring the mutas)" | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On April 08 2011 12:08 JaqMs wrote: I know hydras have gone out of style recently in ZvP, but could this build viably transition into a heavy queen/hydra army? Seems like it theoretically counters the deathball (queens vs colossi/void rays and hydras vs gateway units). Queens also seem to be better meatshields than roaches since they are, non-armored, bigger (less colossi AoE damage), and have transfuse. Movement speed shouldn't be a problem due to the build's immense creep spread. Perhaps queens could be loaded into overlords and create "flash" creep spread in the proximity of the opponent's base. No offense man, but what have you been smoking? How in gods name does Queen/Hydra counter colo+x :D? I mean, Queens do like no damage whatsoever, are super slow like hydras and both get melted by colossi. Also, good protoss players will deny alot of creepspread and due to your lack of mapcontrol with your build you cannot really prevent this. It really baffles me how people say that this build has good creep spread, sure, you have alot of extra queens, but only in lowlevel games this actually results in more creepspread. against competent opponents you need queens AND mapcontrol, otherwise your opponent will just walk up right outside your static defense and wait there and kill of any tumor that tries to spread out. On April 08 2011 13:04 LaLuSh wrote: I can see this working ZvZ vs 14gas 13/14pool, because it's basically how dimaga has been playing for months. But in the other matchups... no... only if you're playing on the US server, where people compete to invent the most stupid strategies. Yes, dimaga uses this sometimes, i have actually practised some against him where he played something similar to this build, but i always came out a bit ahead after the early game (he also agreed on this). He still managed to win afterwards, but that was not due to his starting build, but one time due to me misspositioning my army and another time due to overdroning when i took the third and then dying to mass roach -_-. The thing in starcraft 2 is, even if you play an inferior build, you can still win, as people simply make many mistakes.. even at the top levels of play | ||
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enykie
Germany64 Posts
 about the speedlings and mapcontrol. theres probably a window in this build where we can get 100 gas earlier for getting speedupgrade, but at what time do you think speedlings are really needed? at last, thanks for sharing this build! its really awesome (the build and the sharing/explanation)! | ||
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ElPeque.fogata
Uruguay462 Posts
You say this build is weak against heavy expand builds right? Because you can't scout, and even if you could, you cant punish. In my lousy level, (3300 masters last season, didn't play much) i've been having just the opposite results. In the economy front there is just no way they can make a bigger and faster econ, after all, all larva goes to drones. Even your army is made without using larvae. 3 queens and transfuses on some spines. Have you tried it? You saturate in an instant, get to macro hatch and then your army and upgrades just boom. But i've been having mixed results with heavy agressive builds. For example, it is very hard to know if he made 7 or 8 hellions instead of just 2 (because as you stated, it is hard to scout). They toasted my ramp queens more than once and then obliterated my main in that way. I've had problems with elevator drops also. I've usually win the games they couldn't harrass effectively with this build. You need very good simcity, but i don't think it is possible on every map. | ||
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bluQ
Germany1724 Posts
On April 08 2011 22:17 ElPeque.fogata wrote: Darkforce. To sum up a little. You say this build is weak against heavy expand builds right? Because you can't scout, and even if you could, you cant punish. In my lousy level, (3300 masters last season, didn't play much) i've been having just the opposite results. In the economy front there is just no way they can make a bigger and faster econ, after all, all larva goes to drones. Even your army is made without using larvae. 3 queens and transfuses on some spines. Have you tried it? You saturate in an instant, get to macro hatch and then your army and upgrades just boom. But i've been having mixed results with heavy agressive builds. For example, it is very hard to know if he made 7 or 8 hellions instead of just 2 (because as you stated, it is hard to scout). They toasted my ramp queens more than once and then obliterated my main in that way. I've had problems with elevator drops also. I've usually win the games they couldn't harrass effectively with this build. You need very good simcity, but i don't think it is possible on every map. Sorry but i dont know against what sort of people you play. Any decent T and P i played against (only dia) was able to catch up in econ unless i take a very greedy 3rd (4-5minutes ingame). They can pump every bit of mineral into workers too and every race has his little econ boost. You dont want to play 2 base vs 2 base even with this build. Sure you will get some suprise wins but thats just because people are not used to such kind of play. Give them 1-2 weeks and they'll know that they can produce their ass off in terms of econ when they see Z not taking gas up to 20 supply. And as I said in previous post, you dont know whats going on in the "darkage", they can still easly harass you (even more when u are on 3 bases) Have you tried it? Do you even know who u responded too? cO | ||
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ElPeque.fogata
Uruguay462 Posts
On April 08 2011 22:24 bluQ wrote: Sorry but i dont know against what sort of people you play. Any decent T and P i played against (only dia) was able to catch up in econ unless i take a very greedy 3rd (4-5minutes ingame). They can pump every bit of mineral into workers too and every race has his little econ boost. You dont want to play 2 base vs 2 base even with this build. Sure you will get some suprise wins but thats just because people are not used to such kind of play. Give them 1-2 weeks and they'll know that they can produce their ass off in terms of econ when they see Z not taking gas up to 20 supply. And as I said in previous post, you dont know whats going on in the "darkage", they can still easly harass you (even more when u are on 3 bases) Do you even know who u responded too? cO Yes, i know who i responded to, and i have no doubt that i could't take a game from him even if he completely forgets his first overlord XD. I'm just thinking that many pros disregard each others ideas on the foundations of what they think without trying them first. He may be absolutely right, but i think there are some things you just have to try them to value them with justice. I play with T or P around my level obviously :D. That is around 3300 last season. I dont think this is "the ultimate build" by any stretch, but i think it's got "something". And that is... It is the fastest way to saturate 2 bases. And that translates into a very nice 2 base timing attack (+1 +1 or +2 +2). If the timming attack looks like its going to be innefective (positioning/simcity, whatever), then i think you should have map control as you have a pretty biffy army. So expand and whatever. If he has a third, depending on the map i think he will have quite some trouble defending all bases should you exploit it well. Its mayor drawbacks i think would be that it gives you a pretty late third and may have problems with heavy harrass. Intelligent simcity does wonders with the latter. How? We are not commin out soon, so we dont need the gas right now. But that is just the idea, you can intelligently tweak the build here and there on the go to accomodate deviation. Maybe just one late gas just to have speed a little earlier, or the lair to get the overseer to scout, or whatever. | ||
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JediGamer
United States656 Posts
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tgun
434 Posts
Spanishiwa's build is amazingly strong, as most terran/toss haven't figured out a way to adapt to it. Zergs are ceeding a small amount of mapcontrol early on (fast slings) in exchange for a faster, stronger economy, allowing for a better outlook entering the midgame. | ||
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qwertyindeed
151 Posts
think 1% of toss will try ramp run and warp in @ main | ||
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sonigo
Switzerland38 Posts
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Megaliskuu
United States5123 Posts
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JediGamer
United States656 Posts
On April 08 2011 23:53 tgun wrote: JediGamer: That would only really beat Zergs who aren't very familiar with the build, since they can drop 1-2 spines at their natural, be safe to hellion runby's and destroy your drop with 4 queens + slow lings. Spanishiwa's build is amazingly strong, as most terran/toss haven't figured out a way to adapt to it. Zergs are ceeding a small amount of mapcontrol early on (fast slings) in exchange for a faster, stronger economy, allowing for a better outlook entering the midgame. Seeing as how the only Blue highlighted players here are saying it won't work vs consistent opponents. Anyhow I won't bother saying its not an epic build because there will be about 50 midmasters-bronze posts that will shout 'NO!' at me. How many people here actually looked at CrunChers macro during the game. His first warp in of units he had 450 gas. Warping in zealots. It was an experimental build that failed. | ||
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