• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 05:10
CEST 11:10
KST 18:10
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week1[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation14$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced6Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles6[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China9Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL67
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Season 1 - Final Week Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation TL Team Map Contest #4: Winners Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles
Tourneys
$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [G] Progamer Settings ASL20 Preliminary Maps
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Positive Thoughts on Setting Up a Dual-Caliber FX
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 669 users

[G] Spanishiwa's No Gas FE ZvX - Page 14

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 12 13 14 15 16 58 Next
LaLuSh
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden2358 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-08 04:04:54
April 08 2011 04:04 GMT
#261
I thought I was taking my gas late at 25~ish in ZvT (with lots of variations depending on what is scouted).

I can see this working ZvZ vs 14gas 13/14pool, because it's basically how dimaga has been playing for months. But in the other matchups... no... only if you're playing on the US server, where people compete to invent the most stupid strategies.

I don't doubt that it might work perfectly in certain situations. But it won't be stable. Especially vs people feigning pressure and denying information.
Betalump
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States109 Posts
April 08 2011 04:44 GMT
#262
Very cool to see and use. Have been trying to figure out a way to make 3 hatch before pool viable or no queens into quick 3rd. This might help me eventually get there. If I never get there this is about as close as I can get.
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-08 06:18:06
April 08 2011 06:11 GMT
#263
+ Show Spoiler +

On April 08 2011 07:38 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2011 06:45 VictorX wrote:
On April 08 2011 04:30 IPA wrote:
Loving these guys calling out DarkForce, a proven Euro Zerg power, like he doesn't know what he is talking about. "B-but it worked in my gold league!!"

I don't think he is calling out the build itself as terrible or useless, just that it builds habits that are counter-intuitive to the race's strengths. If you have a solid grasp of fundamentals and several different builds in your repertoire, there's no reason why you can't add this one.


I wasn't trying to call out DarkForce, I know he is a pro, the guy's on liquipedia ;p

I also have doubts about it's power in ZvZ, because I find being unable to scout the opponent constantly to be unnerving (because of the speed of a zerg push compared to terran and toss)

I think what DarkForce is arguing is that giving up map control between 20 food and 50 food is bad, but I have found through playing in masters (now 30 games of experience) that after the dark period of 20-50 food is over, you end up with full saturation quicker, more map control, and more options.

He is very right that the biggest problem is that it puts 0 pressure, therefor allowing a reactive opponent to out-macro you once he scouts that you are not taking gas at all. My solution so far is double expanding to match a quick third, or dedicating to heavy harassment. Whether this will fail me in the future is too early to tell, Spanishwa definitely has more experience on the weaknesses of the build against greedy econ play than I do. (he's already admitted it dies to 2rax all in)

In a way Spanishwa's build is an econ risk. Something must be given up to secure such a quick economy, and that thing is total map control exerted by early speedlings. By cutting speedlings (cutting gas), you get more drones, faster.

As to some people concerned about being unable to spread creep without lings, this is absolutely true. I find it very easy to simply spread creep around their army, into "tasteless secret hallway" and other alternative routes. Also it's not hard to just postpone creep, having active tumors stockpiled on the edge of his army, ready to push out as soon as your first two rounds of speedlings are moving out to re-establish map control. But a camped army in the middle of map denies creep like no other, and is definitely a weakness when you don't have enough creep to immediately and safely throw down a third against air play (queens can't get there)


When you take gas as late as 40 you dont suddenly have Zerglingspeed finished at 50 supply. And mapcontrol without Zerglingspeed is not something that happens very often. taking gas at 40 means that it takes a little less than 3 more minutes (ingame time) until you have zergling speed done (after taking gas). so, at 2 hatcheries and 9 larvae per hatch per minute you should be at like 90 food when you finally have zergling speed. assuming a little over 1 supply per larvae.


Show nested quote +
On April 08 2011 06:52 OutlaW- wrote:
On April 07 2011 18:26 DarKFoRcE wrote:
On April 07 2011 18:20 themell wrote:
On April 07 2011 17:47 DarKFoRcE wrote:
On April 07 2011 06:02 darkscream wrote:
On April 06 2011 19:27 Acritter wrote:

Seven Roach Rush.


@darkforce, this build gives you such a booming economy, that Terran cannot keep up. The build relies on constant scouting more than most. If you see a command center, you throw down a hatchery, and in two rounds of injects the zerg 3rd is fully saturated. However, the real strength of this build is that you hit 2 base saturation, and you can just max on tier 1 with upgrades and attack. You get ling speed and a lair, then you get whatever the hell you want.

That said, I have lost to bunker rushes on stupid maps that the queen/crawler defense isnt very good on. Shattered Temple makes you feel very safe with these defenses, metalopolis on the other hand is full of nooks and crannies to hide cannons and bunkers. This takes us back to "this build relies on constant scouting more than most." Constant drone and overlord scouting early is a must, and ling scouting later also a must. You don't need ling speed to spend 1 supply on 2 zerglings looking at the 2 most obvious places for the Terran's 3rd.


Again, this is just your opinion, yet you state it is a fact. You have no proof for this, just like i have no proof for my standpoint. The only difference is that i might have a bit more experience.

You talk about constant scouting. But it is alot harder to scout with Slow lings compared to Speedlings. If terran goes for 2 rax into double expand, he will have a good bunch of marines, it wont be so easy to even get to his natural. The 2 rax player can also apply quite some pressure (run around in front of your spine crawlers, kill tumors..) and you might invest in more spine crawlers. yet, for him, this is not a risk, because you dont have a mobile army to kill off his marines in case he retreats too late (which is what normally happens).

Anyway, if any decent player here feels like trying it, im willing to play terran against you using this build (my main race is zerg..). Surely your superior strategy should be able to compete against my lousy terran play ;p


It seems to me that you're just really biased against this build. I don't see how a 2 rax double expand could work. That's 800 minerals (and countless scvs) that aren't marines. You may have enough to contain the zerg, but once your "double expansion" happens, you have to pull back. Also, with a couple spine crawlers and queens, he can slowly move spine crawlers forward one at a time to crush any bunker contain. The only thing killing tumors will do is prevent mobility of ground units. As for vision and scouting, zerg still has overlords. At least one should be near the opponents base to scout, or at least by the expansion to see if the terran is expanding.


Yes im really biased against this build because it is completely counterintuitive to abandon mapcontrol with zerg and invest in static defense. This is ok against a 1 basing opponent who goes for some kind of allin, but not against 2 or more bases.

Also, not being able to spread creep means that terran will be able to push much faster later on, because he does not have to kill as much creep on the way.

I dont know Spanishiwa at all, so its nothing personal, i just think that overvalueing this build will develop bad habits.

Your arguments are solid and I won't argue against them, but perhaps this is the mindset of Zergs keeping them from exploring new things? The fact that they have to work so hard to refine everything and then it just doesn't work maybe warps their sense of reality a bit, denying to try new things and explore the unknown? It's really hard to explain with words, but I feel that Spanishiwa and everyone else who is trying this build is definitely pushing starcraft further, regardless if this build turns out to have too big flaws or not.



Maybe this is the case, we will most likely never know. But i personally think its a good attitude to be very very critical of a new build order, otherwise you will implement alot of bad habits in your play. Im very open to trying things, but i put a lot of value into my intuition when it comes to whether a build might be viable or not. And as i pointed out in another post, the build seems just so completely counterintuitive that i do not see it worth putting in alot of time. The advantage we humans have over a computer is that we can detect patterns and thus dont have to do everything by trial and error.

The thing is, as i said, this build is good against certain things (especially 1 base allins), but once a very good player has played against this 1-2 times he should be able to exploit it properly (faking aggression to force crawlers, expanding but denying the slowlings from scouting it early - on some maps you cant use ovis to scout his natural). Now you might say that it is a good build to play once in a series to surprise your opponent. But the problem with this is that your opponent will be able to keep his scouting worker alive until at least ~30 seconds after your pool finishes, that means, he will be able to see that even until then you have not taken your gas, thus he knows he will be very save. if you take gas after you have killed his worker in order to throw him off, it will take another 3:15 until you have zergling speed done, with which you could get aggressive. that is very late.





Obviously am I in no way a good player (only diamond), but I have had moderate success in chess and one thing that stuck out when learning chess openings is that some openings make absolutely no intuitive sense. A common theme in chess openings is "try to gain control in the center and develop your pieces into a good position and have a plan", however, there are certain strategies that intentionally give up control over the center in order to gain an advantage in tempo, or even strategies which sacrifice positional advantage and be agressive (Something which bobby fischer was excellent at). The most "optimal" strategy for white is always e4, however, it is such a common opening that it's basically solved for grandmasters. Some openings, such as the sicilian defense, makes absolutely no sense when you first learn, but only as you begin to learn the intricacies after playing, can one truly understand the purpose of this opening and how it works and why it works. Some of these openings took decades for players to figure out and only after a sufficient amount of time would a grandmaster declare that a "opening was inferior". Usually the build would get picked up again by another grandmaster and discover a new line that fixes the problems initially thought.

The other thing to note is that strategies have costs. Let's say that in starcraft you can pick to spend resources for the following
Scouting
Teching
Expanding
Applying Pressure
Map Control
Tempo (forcing your opponent to react to your actions)

If you spend a lot of resources on scouting and teching, you will have less resources for expanding, etc. The other important thing is trying to figure out the relative value of each. For example, protoss can skip a robo and do 4 gate which gives you pressure, map control and tempo at the sacrifice of expanding, teching and scouting. The question is, how often will someone lose with a 4 gate if they don't scout? The answer depends on what the opponent is doing, but most often, 4 gate is safe until the mid game since you are forcing your opponent to react to your actions.

An example (not perfect) might be Idra. He is an amazing player and the way he plays zerg is by doing the following.
1. Scouting, he gets early ling speed in order to do this. Costs 100 gas and several hundred minerals for speedlings, plus it takes up quite a few actions
2. Teching. Since he prefers an expanding style of play, he delays teching until he has 2 bases up and running.
3. Expanding. He expands the moment he feels he is safe to do so (which is optimal). Expanding sometimes will cost him a game if the opponent is using an agressive build
4. Agression/pressure. Very rarely does he play agressively, the style he most succeeds at is with getting a larger army than his opponent and using his economy, thus he sacrifices this
4. Map control. With speedlings and overlords, he usually has great map control. This usually costs him 300-400 mineral in overlords per game.
5. Tempo. He completely ignores tempo. His playstyle revolves around scouting his opponent, discovering their strategy and countering it with the right strategy.


Is this style (Idra's) the best way or only way to play zerg? Possibly, but as a new game I have a feeling that it might not be the case. When you say things like "This develops bad habits" it's true if you wish to play in a specific style. They said the same thing about tiger woods. Tiger woods, according to golf experts, has a terrible swing and they warn all their students to not learn it like he does, but obviously it wins him tournaments.However, maybe zerg IS supposed to be the teching race. Maybe zerg doesn't need to expand.Heck no one even discovered the power of mutas until much later on in bw. Maybe zerg only needs to get to 2 base with 1 macro hatch? How will we know if it's optimal? If players (pros specifically, or even semi-pros) try it out, regardless of what happens, then we can learn more. Obviously for tournaments, pros should use whatever strategy is most optimal, but in chess, and hopefully in starcraft, good players will spend a lot of time trying out new builds and even new styles of playing. Unless we try, no one will know. I think the great thing about starcraft is that over time, anyone (including gold players and below) can and will contribute to the community.

If games were perfectly intuitive, then everyone would be a bobby fischer. Every build has a weakness, but maybe this build will result in a higher win ratio for zerg, only time will tell.

Edit; One thing to also note is that in chess, one strategic skill is, when you opponent is trying to force you to react to a threat, completely ignore it. If you feel like you can get away with not scouting, then do it. In chess, maybe your opponent has put a rook on an open column, and the intuitive reaction might be to counter it with your own rook, but maybe instead, you sacrifice that column and apply pressure elsewhere. In starcraft, for protoss, even IF the opponent is going fast banshee, if you make an early robo to get out an observer, it might cost too much in resources and lose you the game. The common adage is "If there are mutas in your base, go freaking kill him (completely ignoring the mutas)"
Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
trakAus
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia30 Posts
April 08 2011 06:45 GMT
#264
I really like this build, it wins me the majority of my games in ZvZ so long as no lings get up my ramp, though I'm only a high diamond player. Maybe getting just 100 gas for speed, then to fully sat, get all 4 gas pumping etc would be the way to go?
dementrio
Profile Joined November 2010
678 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-08 07:46:26
April 08 2011 07:43 GMT
#265
I've encountered this build half a dozen times zvz. So far I have never lost to it. I tried either oversaturating 2 bases, or take a 3rd by like 6 minutes, and both work. You have no units and no scouting and can't do anything about it, you'll end up losing the economic game.


As I see it, 2 spines are not cheaper than 100 gas, and they broadcast "no rush till 10:00". I don't see how you can come out ahead of that, I can be waay greedier than you.
Kar98
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia924 Posts
April 08 2011 07:49 GMT
#266
Been using this build in the plat/diamond leagues and I quite like it . I've held off 2rax, 2 port banshees, 4gates and bane/roach all ins with this build and I'm finally winning ZvZ's. I feel it's the transfuses which give the build a huge advantage, later tonight I'll post a replay where I'm severly down in army size but my 2 spine crawlers and 3 queens hold off due to transffuses :D
soupchicken
Profile Joined October 2010
United States322 Posts
April 08 2011 07:55 GMT
#267
This is killing me in ZvZ, but I've won every ZvP/ZvT that I've played today. I think I'll stick to my old ZvZ but really this will probably become my standard against P and T until they figure out how to deal with it.
nyc863
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
200 Posts
April 08 2011 08:09 GMT
#268
Adebisi just casted this build vs onecruncher and wow what an awesome way to win

Zero.Tha.Hero
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada155 Posts
April 08 2011 08:21 GMT
#269
I played 12 games using this build today (went 8:4 :D), and here are some of the more successful results:

11.04.07-20.41 ZvZ (ZeroThaHero - W@216apm, skimpaint - L@126apm) Scrap Station
11.04.07-19.35 ZvP (ZeroThaHero - W@210apm, Doomisonfiya - L@77apm) The Shattered Temple
11.04.07-19.20 ZvT (ZeroThaHero - W@214apm, Lokil - L@82apm) The Shattered Temple

The build shined quite well in each of these three examples, playing high/mid diamond. I had difficulty macroing fast enough in some games, as this opening had such high economy I couldn't spend it fast enough (because my macro is bad 0.0 ).

Also, this is the best post ever. Extremely eloquent, equally convincing:

On April 08 2011 15:11 darmousseh wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +

On April 08 2011 07:38 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2011 06:45 VictorX wrote:
On April 08 2011 04:30 IPA wrote:
Loving these guys calling out DarkForce, a proven Euro Zerg power, like he doesn't know what he is talking about. "B-but it worked in my gold league!!"

I don't think he is calling out the build itself as terrible or useless, just that it builds habits that are counter-intuitive to the race's strengths. If you have a solid grasp of fundamentals and several different builds in your repertoire, there's no reason why you can't add this one.


I wasn't trying to call out DarkForce, I know he is a pro, the guy's on liquipedia ;p

I also have doubts about it's power in ZvZ, because I find being unable to scout the opponent constantly to be unnerving (because of the speed of a zerg push compared to terran and toss)

I think what DarkForce is arguing is that giving up map control between 20 food and 50 food is bad, but I have found through playing in masters (now 30 games of experience) that after the dark period of 20-50 food is over, you end up with full saturation quicker, more map control, and more options.

He is very right that the biggest problem is that it puts 0 pressure, therefor allowing a reactive opponent to out-macro you once he scouts that you are not taking gas at all. My solution so far is double expanding to match a quick third, or dedicating to heavy harassment. Whether this will fail me in the future is too early to tell, Spanishwa definitely has more experience on the weaknesses of the build against greedy econ play than I do. (he's already admitted it dies to 2rax all in)

In a way Spanishwa's build is an econ risk. Something must be given up to secure such a quick economy, and that thing is total map control exerted by early speedlings. By cutting speedlings (cutting gas), you get more drones, faster.

As to some people concerned about being unable to spread creep without lings, this is absolutely true. I find it very easy to simply spread creep around their army, into "tasteless secret hallway" and other alternative routes. Also it's not hard to just postpone creep, having active tumors stockpiled on the edge of his army, ready to push out as soon as your first two rounds of speedlings are moving out to re-establish map control. But a camped army in the middle of map denies creep like no other, and is definitely a weakness when you don't have enough creep to immediately and safely throw down a third against air play (queens can't get there)


When you take gas as late as 40 you dont suddenly have Zerglingspeed finished at 50 supply. And mapcontrol without Zerglingspeed is not something that happens very often. taking gas at 40 means that it takes a little less than 3 more minutes (ingame time) until you have zergling speed done (after taking gas). so, at 2 hatcheries and 9 larvae per hatch per minute you should be at like 90 food when you finally have zergling speed. assuming a little over 1 supply per larvae.


Show nested quote +
On April 08 2011 06:52 OutlaW- wrote:
On April 07 2011 18:26 DarKFoRcE wrote:
On April 07 2011 18:20 themell wrote:
On April 07 2011 17:47 DarKFoRcE wrote:
On April 07 2011 06:02 darkscream wrote:
On April 06 2011 19:27 Acritter wrote:

Seven Roach Rush.


@darkforce, this build gives you such a booming economy, that Terran cannot keep up. The build relies on constant scouting more than most. If you see a command center, you throw down a hatchery, and in two rounds of injects the zerg 3rd is fully saturated. However, the real strength of this build is that you hit 2 base saturation, and you can just max on tier 1 with upgrades and attack. You get ling speed and a lair, then you get whatever the hell you want.

That said, I have lost to bunker rushes on stupid maps that the queen/crawler defense isnt very good on. Shattered Temple makes you feel very safe with these defenses, metalopolis on the other hand is full of nooks and crannies to hide cannons and bunkers. This takes us back to "this build relies on constant scouting more than most." Constant drone and overlord scouting early is a must, and ling scouting later also a must. You don't need ling speed to spend 1 supply on 2 zerglings looking at the 2 most obvious places for the Terran's 3rd.


Again, this is just your opinion, yet you state it is a fact. You have no proof for this, just like i have no proof for my standpoint. The only difference is that i might have a bit more experience.

You talk about constant scouting. But it is alot harder to scout with Slow lings compared to Speedlings. If terran goes for 2 rax into double expand, he will have a good bunch of marines, it wont be so easy to even get to his natural. The 2 rax player can also apply quite some pressure (run around in front of your spine crawlers, kill tumors..) and you might invest in more spine crawlers. yet, for him, this is not a risk, because you dont have a mobile army to kill off his marines in case he retreats too late (which is what normally happens).

Anyway, if any decent player here feels like trying it, im willing to play terran against you using this build (my main race is zerg..). Surely your superior strategy should be able to compete against my lousy terran play ;p


It seems to me that you're just really biased against this build. I don't see how a 2 rax double expand could work. That's 800 minerals (and countless scvs) that aren't marines. You may have enough to contain the zerg, but once your "double expansion" happens, you have to pull back. Also, with a couple spine crawlers and queens, he can slowly move spine crawlers forward one at a time to crush any bunker contain. The only thing killing tumors will do is prevent mobility of ground units. As for vision and scouting, zerg still has overlords. At least one should be near the opponents base to scout, or at least by the expansion to see if the terran is expanding.


Yes im really biased against this build because it is completely counterintuitive to abandon mapcontrol with zerg and invest in static defense. This is ok against a 1 basing opponent who goes for some kind of allin, but not against 2 or more bases.

Also, not being able to spread creep means that terran will be able to push much faster later on, because he does not have to kill as much creep on the way.

I dont know Spanishiwa at all, so its nothing personal, i just think that overvalueing this build will develop bad habits.

Your arguments are solid and I won't argue against them, but perhaps this is the mindset of Zergs keeping them from exploring new things? The fact that they have to work so hard to refine everything and then it just doesn't work maybe warps their sense of reality a bit, denying to try new things and explore the unknown? It's really hard to explain with words, but I feel that Spanishiwa and everyone else who is trying this build is definitely pushing starcraft further, regardless if this build turns out to have too big flaws or not.



Maybe this is the case, we will most likely never know. But i personally think its a good attitude to be very very critical of a new build order, otherwise you will implement alot of bad habits in your play. Im very open to trying things, but i put a lot of value into my intuition when it comes to whether a build might be viable or not. And as i pointed out in another post, the build seems just so completely counterintuitive that i do not see it worth putting in alot of time. The advantage we humans have over a computer is that we can detect patterns and thus dont have to do everything by trial and error.

The thing is, as i said, this build is good against certain things (especially 1 base allins), but once a very good player has played against this 1-2 times he should be able to exploit it properly (faking aggression to force crawlers, expanding but denying the slowlings from scouting it early - on some maps you cant use ovis to scout his natural). Now you might say that it is a good build to play once in a series to surprise your opponent. But the problem with this is that your opponent will be able to keep his scouting worker alive until at least ~30 seconds after your pool finishes, that means, he will be able to see that even until then you have not taken your gas, thus he knows he will be very save. if you take gas after you have killed his worker in order to throw him off, it will take another 3:15 until you have zergling speed done, with which you could get aggressive. that is very late.





Obviously am I in no way a good player (only diamond), but I have had moderate success in chess and one thing that stuck out when learning chess openings is that some openings make absolutely no intuitive sense. A common theme in chess openings is "try to gain control in the center and develop your pieces into a good position and have a plan", however, there are certain strategies that intentionally give up control over the center in order to gain an advantage in tempo, or even strategies which sacrifice positional advantage and be agressive (Something which bobby fischer was excellent at). The most "optimal" strategy for white is always e4, however, it is such a common opening that it's basically solved for grandmasters. Some openings, such as the sicilian defense, makes absolutely no sense when you first learn, but only as you begin to learn the intricacies after playing, can one truly understand the purpose of this opening and how it works and why it works. Some of these openings took decades for players to figure out and only after a sufficient amount of time would a grandmaster declare that a "opening was inferior". Usually the build would get picked up again by another grandmaster and discover a new line that fixes the problems initially thought.

The other thing to note is that strategies have costs. Let's say that in starcraft you can pick to spend resources for the following
Scouting
Teching
Expanding
Applying Pressure
Map Control
Tempo (forcing your opponent to react to your actions)

If you spend a lot of resources on scouting and teching, you will have less resources for expanding, etc. The other important thing is trying to figure out the relative value of each. For example, protoss can skip a robo and do 4 gate which gives you pressure, map control and tempo at the sacrifice of expanding, teching and scouting. The question is, how often will someone lose with a 4 gate if they don't scout? The answer depends on what the opponent is doing, but most often, 4 gate is safe until the mid game since you are forcing your opponent to react to your actions.

An example (not perfect) might be Idra. He is an amazing player and the way he plays zerg is by doing the following.
1. Scouting, he gets early ling speed in order to do this. Costs 100 gas and several hundred minerals for speedlings, plus it takes up quite a few actions
2. Teching. Since he prefers an expanding style of play, he delays teching until he has 2 bases up and running.
3. Expanding. He expands the moment he feels he is safe to do so (which is optimal). Expanding sometimes will cost him a game if the opponent is using an agressive build
4. Agression/pressure. Very rarely does he play agressively, the style he most succeeds at is with getting a larger army than his opponent and using his economy, thus he sacrifices this
4. Map control. With speedlings and overlords, he usually has great map control. This usually costs him 300-400 mineral in overlords per game.
5. Tempo. He completely ignores tempo. His playstyle revolves around scouting his opponent, discovering their strategy and countering it with the right strategy.


Is this style (Idra's) the best way or only way to play zerg? Possibly, but as a new game I have a feeling that it might not be the case. When you say things like "This develops bad habits" it's true if you wish to play in a specific style. They said the same thing about tiger woods. Tiger woods, according to golf experts, has a terrible swing and they warn all their students to not learn it like he does, but obviously it wins him tournaments.However, maybe zerg IS supposed to be the teching race. Maybe zerg doesn't need to expand.Heck no one even discovered the power of mutas until much later on in bw. Maybe zerg only needs to get to 2 base with 1 macro hatch? How will we know if it's optimal? If players (pros specifically, or even semi-pros) try it out, regardless of what happens, then we can learn more. Obviously for tournaments, pros should use whatever strategy is most optimal, but in chess, and hopefully in starcraft, good players will spend a lot of time trying out new builds and even new styles of playing. Unless we try, no one will know. I think the great thing about starcraft is that over time, anyone (including gold players and below) can and will contribute to the community.

If games were perfectly intuitive, then everyone would be a bobby fischer. Every build has a weakness, but maybe this build will result in a higher win ratio for zerg, only time will tell.

Edit; One thing to also note is that in chess, one strategic skill is, when you opponent is trying to force you to react to a threat, completely ignore it. If you feel like you can get away with not scouting, then do it. In chess, maybe your opponent has put a rook on an open column, and the intuitive reaction might be to counter it with your own rook, but maybe instead, you sacrifice that column and apply pressure elsewhere. In starcraft, for protoss, even IF the opponent is going fast banshee, if you make an early robo to get out an observer, it might cost too much in resources and lose you the game. The common adage is "If there are mutas in your base, go freaking kill him (completely ignoring the mutas)"

DarKFoRcE
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany1215 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-08 09:18:13
April 08 2011 09:12 GMT
#270
On April 08 2011 12:08 JaqMs wrote:
I know hydras have gone out of style recently in ZvP, but could this build viably transition into a heavy queen/hydra army? Seems like it theoretically counters the deathball (queens vs colossi/void rays and hydras vs gateway units). Queens also seem to be better meatshields than roaches since they are, non-armored, bigger (less colossi AoE damage), and have transfuse. Movement speed shouldn't be a problem due to the build's immense creep spread. Perhaps queens could be loaded into overlords and create "flash" creep spread in the proximity of the opponent's base.


No offense man, but what have you been smoking? How in gods name does Queen/Hydra counter colo+x :D? I mean, Queens do like no damage whatsoever, are super slow like hydras and both get melted by colossi. Also, good protoss players will deny alot of creepspread and due to your lack of mapcontrol with your build you cannot really prevent this.

It really baffles me how people say that this build has good creep spread, sure, you have alot of extra queens, but only in lowlevel games this actually results in more creepspread. against competent opponents you need queens AND mapcontrol, otherwise your opponent will just walk up right outside your static defense and wait there and kill of any tumor that tries to spread out.

On April 08 2011 13:04 LaLuSh wrote:


I can see this working ZvZ vs 14gas 13/14pool, because it's basically how dimaga has been playing for months. But in the other matchups... no... only if you're playing on the US server, where people compete to invent the most stupid strategies.


Yes, dimaga uses this sometimes, i have actually practised some against him where he played something similar to this build, but i always came out a bit ahead after the early game (he also agreed on this). He still managed to win afterwards, but that was not due to his starting build, but one time due to me misspositioning my army and another time due to overdroning when i took the third and then dying to mass roach -_-.

The thing in starcraft 2 is, even if you play an inferior build, you can still win, as people simply make many mistakes.. even at the top levels of play
Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/PinDarKFoRcE
enykie
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany64 Posts
April 08 2011 09:29 GMT
#271
yeah like zero.tha.hero said, darmousseh is right, and principally spanishiwa is right for checking out new build styles. It seems to me, that zerg players tend to be narrow-minded and resistent to advices and ideas. (could be caused of continous frustration of loosing against serveral beefy tactics. AND this is where this build rocks hard. For sure there are counters, would be fail if there are none

about the speedlings and mapcontrol. theres probably a window in this build where we can get 100 gas earlier for getting speedupgrade, but at what time do you think speedlings are really needed?

at last, thanks for sharing this build! its really awesome (the build and the sharing/explanation)!
ElPeque.fogata
Profile Joined May 2010
Uruguay462 Posts
April 08 2011 13:17 GMT
#272
Darkforce. To sum up a little.

You say this build is weak against heavy expand builds right? Because you can't scout, and even if you could, you cant punish.

In my lousy level, (3300 masters last season, didn't play much) i've been having just the opposite results. In the economy front there is just no way they can make a bigger and faster econ, after all, all larva goes to drones. Even your army is made without using larvae. 3 queens and transfuses on some spines. Have you tried it? You saturate in an instant, get to macro hatch and then your army and upgrades just boom.

But i've been having mixed results with heavy agressive builds. For example, it is very hard to know if he made 7 or 8 hellions instead of just 2 (because as you stated, it is hard to scout). They toasted my ramp queens more than once and then obliterated my main in that way. I've had problems with elevator drops also.

I've usually win the games they couldn't harrass effectively with this build. You need very good simcity, but i don't think it is possible on every map.
GribStream.com - Historical Weather Forecast API - https://gribstream.com/
bluQ
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Germany1724 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-08 13:29:00
April 08 2011 13:24 GMT
#273
On April 08 2011 22:17 ElPeque.fogata wrote:
Darkforce. To sum up a little.

You say this build is weak against heavy expand builds right? Because you can't scout, and even if you could, you cant punish.

In my lousy level, (3300 masters last season, didn't play much) i've been having just the opposite results. In the economy front there is just no way they can make a bigger and faster econ, after all, all larva goes to drones. Even your army is made without using larvae. 3 queens and transfuses on some spines. Have you tried it? You saturate in an instant, get to macro hatch and then your army and upgrades just boom.

But i've been having mixed results with heavy agressive builds. For example, it is very hard to know if he made 7 or 8 hellions instead of just 2 (because as you stated, it is hard to scout). They toasted my ramp queens more than once and then obliterated my main in that way. I've had problems with elevator drops also.

I've usually win the games they couldn't harrass effectively with this build. You need very good simcity, but i don't think it is possible on every map.


Sorry but i dont know against what sort of people you play.
Any decent T and P i played against (only dia) was able to catch up in econ unless i take a very greedy 3rd (4-5minutes ingame). They can pump every bit of mineral into workers too and every race has his little econ boost. You dont want to play 2 base vs 2 base even with this build.

Sure you will get some suprise wins but thats just because people are not used to such kind of play. Give them 1-2 weeks and they'll know that they can produce their ass off in terms of econ when they see Z not taking gas up to 20 supply.

And as I said in previous post, you dont know whats going on in the "darkage", they can still easly harass you (even more when u are on 3 bases)
Have you tried it?
Do you even know who u responded too? cO
www.twitch.tv/bluquh (PoE, Starbow, HS)
ElPeque.fogata
Profile Joined May 2010
Uruguay462 Posts
April 08 2011 13:59 GMT
#274
On April 08 2011 22:24 bluQ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2011 22:17 ElPeque.fogata wrote:
Darkforce. To sum up a little.

You say this build is weak against heavy expand builds right? Because you can't scout, and even if you could, you cant punish.

In my lousy level, (3300 masters last season, didn't play much) i've been having just the opposite results. In the economy front there is just no way they can make a bigger and faster econ, after all, all larva goes to drones. Even your army is made without using larvae. 3 queens and transfuses on some spines. Have you tried it? You saturate in an instant, get to macro hatch and then your army and upgrades just boom.

But i've been having mixed results with heavy agressive builds. For example, it is very hard to know if he made 7 or 8 hellions instead of just 2 (because as you stated, it is hard to scout). They toasted my ramp queens more than once and then obliterated my main in that way. I've had problems with elevator drops also.

I've usually win the games they couldn't harrass effectively with this build. You need very good simcity, but i don't think it is possible on every map.


Sorry but i dont know against what sort of people you play.
Any decent T and P i played against (only dia) was able to catch up in econ unless i take a very greedy 3rd (4-5minutes ingame). They can pump every bit of mineral into workers too and every race has his little econ boost. You dont want to play 2 base vs 2 base even with this build.

Sure you will get some suprise wins but thats just because people are not used to such kind of play. Give them 1-2 weeks and they'll know that they can produce their ass off in terms of econ when they see Z not taking gas up to 20 supply.

And as I said in previous post, you dont know whats going on in the "darkage", they can still easly harass you (even more when u are on 3 bases)
Show nested quote +
Have you tried it?
Do you even know who u responded too? cO



Yes, i know who i responded to, and i have no doubt that i could't take a game from him even if he completely forgets his first overlord XD.

I'm just thinking that many pros disregard each others ideas on the foundations of what they think without trying them first. He may be absolutely right, but i think there are some things you just have to try them to value them with justice.

I play with T or P around my level obviously :D. That is around 3300 last season. I dont think this is "the ultimate build" by any stretch, but i think it's got "something".

And that is...

It is the fastest way to saturate 2 bases. And that translates into a very nice 2 base timing attack (+1 +1 or +2 +2). If the timming attack looks like its going to be innefective (positioning/simcity, whatever), then i think you should have map control as you have a pretty biffy army. So expand and whatever. If he has a third, depending on the map i think he will have quite some trouble defending all bases should you exploit it well.

Its mayor drawbacks i think would be that it gives you a pretty late third and may have problems with heavy harrass. Intelligent simcity does wonders with the latter.

How? We are not commin out soon, so we dont need the gas right now. But that is just the idea, you can intelligently tweak the build here and there on the go to accomodate deviation. Maybe just one late gas just to have speed a little earlier, or the lair to get the overseer to scout, or whatever.
GribStream.com - Historical Weather Forecast API - https://gribstream.com/
JediGamer
Profile Joined August 2010
United States656 Posts
April 08 2011 14:10 GMT
#275
I love seeing Z's do this build. Because I just drop 8 marines in their main while pressuring with helions at the front. They block with queens and can't move them, lingspeed and roaches are too late. Won 95% like that. Also you can simply double expand as Z or tech 4 gas on your natural as toss.
http://www.z33k.com/starcraft2/coach/sc2coaching Tastosis Approved Coaching
tgun
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
434 Posts
April 08 2011 14:53 GMT
#276
JediGamer: That would only really beat Zergs who aren't very familiar with the build, since they can drop 1-2 spines at their natural, be safe to hellion runby's and destroy your drop with 4 queens + slow lings.

Spanishiwa's build is amazingly strong, as most terran/toss haven't figured out a way to adapt to it. Zergs are ceeding a small amount of mapcontrol early on (fast slings) in exchange for a faster, stronger economy, allowing for a better outlook entering the midgame.
qwertyindeed
Profile Joined November 2010
151 Posts
April 08 2011 16:05 GMT
#277
amazing build since every toss player i face likes to start the game off with voids rays :D - or 4 gate.
think 1% of toss will try ramp run and warp in @ main
sonigo
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Switzerland38 Posts
April 08 2011 16:12 GMT
#278
I really like this build, but I think Spanishiwa is simply outplaying the opponents and that's why it looks like a strong build.
Megaliskuu
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5123 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-08 17:06:32
April 08 2011 17:06 GMT
#279
I imitated the Spanishiwa vs Cruncher game immediately after watching the vod (haven't read the entirety of the guide yet sorry ;; ), and had a blast nydusing into the toss main. This is a really cool style to employ in a BO3 as something to throw your opponent off.
|BW>Everything|Add me on star2 KR server TheMuTaL.675 for practice games :)|NEX clan| https://www.dotabuff.com/players/183104694
JediGamer
Profile Joined August 2010
United States656 Posts
April 08 2011 18:04 GMT
#280
On April 08 2011 23:53 tgun wrote:
JediGamer: That would only really beat Zergs who aren't very familiar with the build, since they can drop 1-2 spines at their natural, be safe to hellion runby's and destroy your drop with 4 queens + slow lings.

Spanishiwa's build is amazingly strong, as most terran/toss haven't figured out a way to adapt to it. Zergs are ceeding a small amount of mapcontrol early on (fast slings) in exchange for a faster, stronger economy, allowing for a better outlook entering the midgame.


Seeing as how the only Blue highlighted players here are saying it won't work vs consistent opponents. Anyhow I won't bother saying its not an epic build because there will be about 50 midmasters-bronze posts that will shout 'NO!' at me.

How many people here actually looked at CrunChers macro during the game. His first warp in of units he had 450 gas. Warping in zealots. It was an experimental build that failed.
http://www.z33k.com/starcraft2/coach/sc2coaching Tastosis Approved Coaching
Prev 1 12 13 14 15 16 58 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 51m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
trigger 11
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 2877
Sea 1995
actioN 340
Hyuk 329
Backho 329
Jaedong 159
Soma 108
Soulkey 65
EffOrt 65
ToSsGirL 47
[ Show more ]
Noble 47
Sharp 35
JulyZerg 33
hero 33
sSak 28
sorry 21
Sacsri 19
NaDa 18
ajuk12(nOOB) 18
yabsab 15
Free 12
Bale 9
IntoTheRainbow 6
Sexy 2
Dota 2
Gorgc533
XaKoH 446
XcaliburYe398
League of Legends
JimRising 603
Counter-Strike
shoxiejesuss828
chrisJcsgo72
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor147
Other Games
tarik_tv12899
shahzam716
Stewie2K632
ceh9564
crisheroes377
monkeys_forever276
Liquid`RaSZi135
Lowko104
SortOf87
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick25382
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 194
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH369
• LUISG 10
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• tankgirl 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2180
League of Legends
• Lourlo1255
• Stunt472
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
51m
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
OSC
3h 51m
Replay Cast
14h 51m
RSL Revival
1d
Classic vs Cure
FEL
1d 6h
OSC
1d 10h
RSL Revival
2 days
FEL
2 days
FEL
2 days
CSO Cup
2 days
[ Show More ]
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
FEL
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-07-07
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.