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sereniity
Sweden1159 Posts
On April 07 2011 21:14 CoMMoDuS wrote: amazing demostration of this build vs cruncher on typhon peaks: http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/45559 SICK game! :D | ||
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HTODethklok
United States221 Posts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/160017-1v1-terran-zerg-shakuras-plateau | ||
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Mammel
Finland189 Posts
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RoKetha
United States211 Posts
On April 08 2011 01:21 Mammel wrote: How does this work against chronoed 2 gate pressure? I watched replay where someone did chronoed 1 gate, but by going bit more "all-innish" with 2 gate and cutting few probes I feel that your simply going to die to good micro as without speed it's up to toss whether or not his going to lose units (Not on every map, but in small/medium rush distances with quite open natural). At the very least it should put you so far behind that your late gas and hatch first isn't going to help you at all. I saw Spanishiwa face a 2gate with the second gate proxied on close positions Shattered Temple on his stream a few days ago. He was able to hold it without losing much with queen micro and using the drones for a brief moment, though he had to make some lings too to get the crawlers up if I'm remembering correctly. As soon as your spines are up, you'll be fine as long as you don't let him up the ramp. I don't think it could hold on a map where the zealots could ignore the spines like Scrap Station, but Spanishiwa's well aware that his opening isn't very safe there. Since Protoss is delaying his cyber core tech (which is required to expand) by so much and forfeiting some of his own potential probes, you don't end up behind if you're forced to get a few less drones while you get the spines up. | ||
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speedaemon
United States8 Posts
Been using it against Ts and Ps. Macro has gotten better, creep spread and overlord placement has gotten better. I guess there is just so much going on it's really easy to see what your weakness was in any particular game. And on top of that, I'm no longer P's red-headed step-child. I'm holding off the early game Stalker/Sentry/Zealot pushes that I struggled so much with. I've even had Ps straight quit after losing the first battle. Regardless of tactics, it's a confidence booster to not get killed easily by the same build over and over again. So far the only thing in Gold I've encountered that stopped it in its tracks was a bunker rush, but that was heavily my fault for letting him get a block on my ramp with the bunkers before lings were out. Regardless of how useful it is in masters/pro level, it is defintely a useful build to mess around with. | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
On April 07 2011 18:26 DarKFoRcE wrote: Yes im really biased against this build because it is completely counterintuitive to abandon mapcontrol with zerg and invest in static defense. This is ok against a 1 basing opponent who goes for some kind of allin, but not against 2 or more bases. Also, not being able to spread creep means that terran will be able to push much faster later on, because he does not have to kill as much creep on the way. I dont know Spanishiwa at all, so its nothing personal, i just think that overvalueing this build will develop bad habits. My question is, why should we assume that this is not the optimal way to play zerg? Protoss do similar builds with forge FE, or terrans do siege expand or even bunker expand. From all the games i've seen, there is very little difference between a zerg on 3 bases compared to a zerg on 5 bases mostly because of the 200 supply limit and the fact that bases in sc2 are basically 2 bases in scbw. Terran and protoss both have multiple styles of play (FE, 1 basing, 2 basing, etc) why not have something similar for zerg? I'm just asking because I have no idea. | ||
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bluQ
Germany1724 Posts
On April 08 2011 02:22 darmousseh wrote: My question is, why should we assume that this is not the optimal way to play zerg? Protoss do similar builds with forge FE, or terrans do siege expand or even bunker expand. From all the games i've seen, there is very little difference between a zerg on 3 bases compared to a zerg on 5 bases mostly because of the 200 supply limit and the fact that bases in sc2 are basically 2 bases in scbw. Terran and protoss both have multiple styles of play (FE, 1 basing, 2 basing, etc) why not have something similar for zerg? I'm just asking because I have no idea. He allready answered your question: "it is completely counterintuitive to abandon mapcontrol with zerg and invest in static defense." Because Zerg is such a reaction based race you need the mapcontrol. Without that mapcontrol you will only see Banshees when they are in your base or helliondrops when they are allready at the edge of ur highground. I guess what darkforce meant with "bad habit" could exactly be this blind-play, just doing something without knowing what you are facing. Btw, just got stomped by P who fake expanded with this build :D | ||
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DemiAlbedo
Canada69 Posts
"Without that mapcontrol you will only see Banshees when they are in your base or helliondrops when they are allready at the edge of ur highground. I guess what darkforce meant with "bad habit" could exactly be this blind-play, just doing something without knowing what you are facing." I don't really agree with that 100%. This build may not give you "mapcontrol", but you are still capable of map awareness. I personally don't mind sacrificing a little map control if the result is more favorable for me. Just because you don't have map control doesn't mean you can't spot a banshee being created, a drop ship flying a cross the map, or the enemy army. That is what creep spread is for, overlord spreading, xel'naga tower control, overseers, changelings, etc. They accomplish the goal of making you aware of the enemy so you are not "building blindly". Remember that if you have map control it means you invested the resources into building an army in order to establish that control. If the enemy never contested map control and just droned then you are going to be lower in harvester count and maybe even army. I always love map control (who doesn't), but unless you gain something from map control like the ability to expanded freely or stop the enemy from expanding it is not worth the resources invested. I think this build is giving away map control for a more favorable encon build that will allow you to expand fast and contest map control with a large push. Wanted to edit and address the quote below. Btw, just got stomped by P who fake expanded with this build :D You can't really say the build got you killed. Whether you 6 pool, 11 overpool, 14 gas 14 pool, if you did not see the fake then what would have made you see it with any other build? All it would have required was one ling to scout the fake and that is possible no matter what build you use. | ||
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VictorX
United States773 Posts
For all those concerned, there can be modifications to the build to your liking. For example it is not unfathomable to drop the extra 175 minerals and 100 gas for zergling speed, exchanging two less spines for 12 more lings. However I feel spines are more favorable over lings in defense, because lings cannot be effectively transfused, and lings take up more larva than spines. I feel the real strength of this build is in it's ability to reach maximum saturation at such an incredible speed. Any unit-based defense ultimately sucks up larva. Any larva spent on military units before maximum two-base saturation damages your economy. What I have noticed through using this build is that whereas before, I would reach the 8 minute mark with X amount of lings, I now reach the 8 minute mark with X amount of lings, 2 extra queens, and 2-6 extra spine crawlers (depending on enemy aggression), and most importantly, twice or thrice the amount of creep spread I would normally have. By delaying the lings and favoring drones while using spine/queen as defense, it allows me to be VERY aggressive off two base, while having more peace of mind in droning To DarkForce, whose concerns are perfectly valid, I assuage with the knowledge that once full saturation is reached and the heavy aggression begins (after 4 gas and 1-2 rounds of speedlings), it becomes very difficult for the enemy to secure a third without taking damage from your harassments, which include burrow, overdrop, banerain, infestors, run-bys and sometimes a switch into mutas if they've cut anti-air. I feel that against a fast 3rd base, harassment becomes a necessity, rather than an accessory Also, it is an option to double expand should you scout a fast third from the enemy because a full saturation grants you the option to do so. Even on 3 base, it is not "scary" because it is difficult for other races to have the flexibility zerg does. They may make their nexus or CC before your 3rd, but they must slowly build up saturation for all three bases. Whereas I can simply make units until my third is 80% complete, then make only drones for 1-2 rounds to fully saturate my third within a split second. The spines, I have also found, never ever become useless in the mid-late game. I often relocate the spines (which allowed me to drone safely) to my 3rd base, 4th base, and main/natural mineral lines. It provides me increased peace of mind against micro-drops such as those pesky 8 marine harasses, as the spines grant me extra time to rush over there. Against protoss it is no problem to move the spines to the middle of the map, to help deal with the death ball in the most-likely battlefield. Also, spines+ spores at each base is beneficial against multi-base late game DT harassments. The only matchup I feel I will not be opening with this build in is ZvZ, simply because I am not confident enough in my drone micro to hold off a 6-8pool + drones + spine crawler all-in  tl;dr spines + queens + creep > lings fast saturation leads to amazing midgame economy need to harass if enemy expands faster than you I love spines | ||
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sick_transit
United States195 Posts
Sometimes I struggle to get there, though, because the build relies on great scouting, spine-crawler management, and queen/drone micro to defend early pressure. I don't have those skills. I have a 0% win-rate vs. 4 gate at the moment. I intend to work on them, which is why I will continue to use this build, because I want to improve as a player. So I have no view on the relative merits of this at the highest level of play (nor am I qualified to have a view). But I would really recommend that lower level players try this out because it may help you improve. It certainly helped me and I intend to use it until it stops working for me in an unfixable way. If I do change builds I will definitely remember what this taught me about droning and upgrade/tech timings, and late-game planning. And thanks Spanishiwa for the phenomenal write-up. Having a new, solid build to try really re-energized my enthusiasm for Zerg. Also, just an aside, I have found ling/bling/ultra to be stupidly good in conjunction with this build because of the creep spread and the emphasis on melee upgrades and hive tech. As another thread recently pointed out, blings and ultras have the same speed on creep so the ultras absorb tank damage and splash while the blings destroy the enemy's front line. | ||
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VictorX
United States773 Posts
On April 08 2011 04:12 sick_transit wrote: I've been using this build for several days and to me it has a very different impact at my low level of play than some of the issues raised by higher level players above. I love this build because it forces me to make good decisions about droning in the early game and has a clear mid-game plan that transitions well into the late game. Most "builds" really stop giving you guidance at the 5-7 minute mark. I used to flounder at 120 food not knowing what to do next. Now I regularly have a max fully upgraded ling/bling/ultra army at around 25 minutes. I've never lost once after getting to that point. I'd say I've won 75% of my games since adopting this build including 99% vs. Terran (I think I remember losing once). Sometimes I struggle to get there, though, because the build relies on great scouting, spine-crawler management, and queen/drone micro to defend early pressure. I don't have those skills. I have a 0% win-rate vs. 4 gate at the moment. I intend to work on them, which is why I will continue to use this build, because I want to improve as a player. So I have no view on the relative merits of this at the highest level of play (nor am I qualified to have a view). But I would really recommend that lower level players try this out because it may help you improve. It certainly helped me and I intend to use it until it stops working for me in an unfixable way. If I do change builds I will definitely remember what this taught me about droning and upgrade/tech timings, and late-game planning. And thanks Spanishiwa for the phenomenal write-up. Having a new, solid build to try really re-energized my enthusiasm for Zerg. Also, just an aside, I have found ling/bling/ultra to be stupidly good in conjunction with this build because of the creep spread and the emphasis on melee upgrades and hive tech. As another thread recently pointed out, blings and ultras have the same speed on creep so the ultras absorb tank damage and splash while the blings destroy the enemy's front line. (slight derailment) There are multiple tells of a 4gate, I hope these help to spot them. Once spotted and confirmed, a large number of spines + transfuse holds it handsomely -no 2nd gas after cyber core -chrono boost on cyber core -stalker after zealot -2nd stalker after 1st stalker -Discontinued probe production at 20 probes (on shattered temple it is possible to have an overlord see his mineral line) -proxy pylon which is too close to be proxy tech and of course: if you see 4 warpgates The earliest a protoss can get 4 gateways and warpgate tech up simultaneously is approximately 5:20, so 5:00 is a good time to suicide an overlord to check, should you choose to do so. 5:30-5:40 is a good time to send a ling up the ramp to see if gateways are turning into warpgates. There are trickier variations, such as cancelling a nexus (faking a 3gate expand), and none of these tells are a definitive as to whether or not he's doing a 4gate, but scouting all of these signs should set off alarm bells, and it is wise to spine up pre-emptively, even if he's feigning. | ||
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bluQ
Germany1724 Posts
On April 08 2011 03:11 DemiAlbedo wrote: I don't really agree with that 100%. This build may not give you "mapcontrol", but you are still capable of map awareness. I personally don't mind sacrificing a little map control if the result is more favorable for me. Just because you don't have map control doesn't mean you can't spot a banshee being created, a drop ship flying a cross the map, or the enemy army. That is what creep spread is for, overlord spreading, xel'naga tower control, overseers, changelings, etc. They accomplish the goal of making you aware of the enemy so you are not "building blindly". Remember that if you have map control it means you invested the resources into building an army in order to establish that control. If the enemy never contested map control and just droned then you are going to be lower in harvester count and maybe even army. I always love map control (who doesn't), but unless you gain something from map control like the ability to expanded freely or stop the enemy from expanding it is not worth the resources invested. I think this build is giving away map control for a more favorable encon build that will allow you to expand fast and contest map control with a large push. Wanted to edit and address the quote below. You can't really say the build got you killed. Whether you 6 pool, 11 overpool, 14 gas 14 pool, if you did not see the fake then what would have made you see it with any other build? All it would have required was one ling to scout the fake and that is possible no matter what build you use. I think you dont really get the point. On a certain level of play u CAN'T have towers with slow lings and you CAN'T have the creepspread without lings (gets denied). The only thing you could do is sacrefice overlords(which u will do generally ...). And we are not talkin about 22 supply mapcontrol ... u wont get any decent intel (besides sacing ovis) before 40+ supply. And to the faking thing. If i had speedlings or roaches it would have been no problem to hold it. But Since this build relys on spines and queens which takes awful lot of time to build you just cant react that fast. | ||
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sick_transit
United States195 Posts
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Ghad
Norway2551 Posts
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
I don't think he is calling out the build itself as terrible or useless, just that it builds habits that are counter-intuitive to the race's strengths. If you have a solid grasp of fundamentals and several different builds in your repertoire, there's no reason why you can't add this one. | ||
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Sqq
Norway2023 Posts
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FXOjEcho
Canada318 Posts
in ZvT marine tank pushes + medivac drops are hell in ZvP if he scouts no gas he can take an early third, or do standard 5 gate robo while teching to collosus, and should have no problem shutting down your third base before it even finishes. and in zvz he can drone just as crazily as you did, except he wont need the spines for defense, and roaches will be very annoying when all you have is a few spines and slowlings. | ||
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Moonling
United States987 Posts
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Kogut
United States147 Posts
There's certainly no argument against hatch-first being the way that many Zerg want to play the game. It was quite in fashion not too long ago, really. The problem, in my eyes, has always been actually holding that expansion. This build seems to be very strong defensively, but obviously gives up even the ability to do a speedling harass when the opponent tries to poke out of their base. While this issue and many more do come up, the build becomes extremely strong once those extractors are thrown up. Let's also not be too quick to dismiss the spine crawlers, as they can just be moved to a more forward position to help secure the 3rd if the opponent tries to deny it before taking their own 3rd. Don't forget the complete protection from DTs that a single spine and spore can do in a Z mineral line. Overall, I still like this build, and I've been watching some of the recorded VODs on Spanish's stream to see how to handle various situations. Looking forward to giving this build a real test on the ladder this weekend. As an aside... Plenty of people in this thread are expressing opinions, and they should not allow the few naysayers and trolls who show up, bash the build, and offer very little logic to back it up. The amount of discussion occurring in this thread is fantastic, and is what TL really should be about (at least in the strategy section). People should be appreciating the comments from people such as DarkForce who really do know Zerg, and who are interested in helping advance the decision making for the race as a whole. I guarantee you that it does not matter to DarkForce if you get on the ladder and use this build. It does, however, matter that we can all come to a place like this and have a productive discussion to work out the kinks in builds. | ||
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Bubbadub
United States156 Posts
On April 06 2011 19:27 Acritter wrote: Seven Roach Rush. I've never used a FotM broken build, and I hate playing against them. It just feels stupid and pointless because the build's going to die soon, whether by counter or nerf, wasting all the time you put into it and sending you on a losing streak. Even if I don't use them, I'm forced to play against them, which is equally boring because it hits me with a losing streak until the counter or nerf comes out. Worst of all is when they get people all up-in-arms about MY race being imba, because then I have to deal with people on ladder bitching about how they "can't win" against my race even when I'm doing something as standard and non-cheesy as 3-gate robo. The damn FotM builds screw this game up a lot. I'm trying to shorten the process here by finding some kind of counter so that I don't have to deal with broken build syndrome and you guys don't have to deal with a nerf. Sorry to derail the thread. My initial question stands. I have used this build quite a bit frequently and it MAY be the answer to ZvP (no pylon block lol?) and ZvT. I haven't tried it in ZvZ on ladder (due to susceptibility of 6-8pool all-in). ZvZ I generally stick to pool first builds. This build is not some variation of "FOTM" builds that will crush your opponent with no possible response. 7 roach rush I agree was fotm back when roaches were broken in beta, but yes protoss and terran have had fotm builds and zerg has found counters (or blizzard nerfed them). Protoss that does forge FE (nexus before cannon) tend to be on equal footing, possibly a few probes up/down on me depending on how I react when using this build... Terrans have a few different builds that can be troublesome, but I have seen depot + CC + rax wall work well, and the econ is similar to this builds' econ. (taking mules into account) The OP in this thread happens to be top 100 NA atm and has a very good winrate, he is playing the top players in NA and if he finds a serious weakness I am sure he will be more than obliged to tell us what, and why. @Acritter This build is meant to bring the players' ability to multitask and limited scouting to perceive what the opponent is doing in order to gain an economical advantage, while being able to defend all 1base builds (aka cheese builds). This is similar to about 100% of the pro players out there. Whether or not this build is the "standard" economical opening for Zergs in the future will depend on what P/T can come up with to counter. With my limited use of this build, it seems very strong but it does not put the Zerg in a position to "win the game" against a similar economical build by P/T, which is how Broodwar is AND (i believe) how this game is meant to be played. Spanishwa has done a really great job coming up with this build AND sharing it with the community. He continuously posts replays and helps Zergs defend cheese builds by showing replays, this is by no means "insta-win". @Spanishwa This thread shows your self-lessness + dedication and time you put into your build. From your experience, do you think a forge/nexus FE or CC / 1rax FE build would be on-par with your early droning? From my limited experience I feel like it doesn't put them "behind" and often times they can easily harass your 3rd (if you suck at creep spreading =P) side note: Thank you Spanishwa for sharing this build, very insightful & fun for macro-style zergs. | ||
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