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On April 06 2011 13:21 pt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 12:48 Acritter wrote:On April 06 2011 08:51 Kogut wrote:On April 06 2011 07:53 Acritter wrote:
Sorry, back again trying to poke holes in this build. What would you do against a fast eight-marine stim drop? How about a Prism push into your main? From what I'm reading, you're going to be investing all your defenses in Spine Crawlers at your expansion, so an aggressive drop in your main will circumvent all your defenses entirely and deal a significant amount of damage, if not have a possibility of taking down your main Hatchery. You think a drop that could destroy the main would be out before the 4 queens? Do you also believe that they would be able to sneak the dropship past creep + overlords + lings + watchtower vision so that the Z couldn't prepare with some more zerglings or queens? How about you throw out some timings and see where they match up? Also addressing the guy two posts above you: Eight stimmed marines will kill four Queens, last I checked. Same with eight Stalkers/Zealots (four loaded in, four warped in). You also fail to acknowledge that by committing to this build, Zerg gives up any pretense of map control, and if the Overlord spread is anything approaching what you're suggesting, Zerg is in serious danger of suffering massive damage from things like the Void Ray Phoenix opening we've been seeing so much in PvZ of late. I'm not saying this build isn't effective, I'm just saying it's probably not the end-all to Zerg play. If it's as unassailable as you appear to think, then it's certain Zerg's going to get nerfed in an upcoming patch, because it's not healthy for the game for a Zerg player to be able to take an expansion and drone it up to max risk-free. you neeeed to make spine crawlers. don't be afraid to make a lot. you're spending all of your larva on drones and ovys until 44 drones.
Sorry, I think you misunderstand what's going on. I'm a Protoss player trying to find weaknesses to this style of play for two reasons: one, to exploit myself, and two, to prevent this from becoming a flavor-of-the-month "broken" build, which I think we all hate.
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On April 06 2011 15:10 Acritter wrote:
two, to prevent this from becoming a flavor-of-the-month "broken" build, which I think we all hate.
I'm pretty sure everyone is this thread wants the opposite of what you want. Zerg hasn't had a "flavour of the month broken build", sorry. We're not protoss or terran. Can't you let us have this one?
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This build is awesome. I'm still not comfortable using it for ZvZ but this has helped my ZvP and ZvT immensely. Usually I would feel behind having to make either speedlings or roaches to defend against early hellion harass or 4gates or other types of 5-6 minute-ish pressure but I can now safely defend and drone at the same time. Awesome stuff!
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first sorry for my bad english, this not my fluent language. I have been use this build in ZvP and i think my win ratio increased. But i have 1 trouble when he goes 1 base zealot immortal. Since my speedling doesnt finish. Fyi i make around 5 spines and 4 queen but those immortal destrroy it quickly. Sorry cant upload the replay. Any advice will be appreiciated. Thank you
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On April 06 2011 15:24 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 15:10 Acritter wrote:
two, to prevent this from becoming a flavor-of-the-month "broken" build, which I think we all hate. I'm pretty sure everyone is this thread wants the opposite of what you want. Zerg hasn't had a "flavour of the month broken build", sorry. We're not protoss or terran. Can't you let us have this one?
Seven Roach Rush.
I've never used a FotM broken build, and I hate playing against them. It just feels stupid and pointless because the build's going to die soon, whether by counter or nerf, wasting all the time you put into it and sending you on a losing streak. Even if I don't use them, I'm forced to play against them, which is equally boring because it hits me with a losing streak until the counter or nerf comes out. Worst of all is when they get people all up-in-arms about MY race being imba, because then I have to deal with people on ladder bitching about how they "can't win" against my race even when I'm doing something as standard and non-cheesy as 3-gate robo. The damn FotM builds screw this game up a lot. I'm trying to shorten the process here by finding some kind of counter so that I don't have to deal with broken build syndrome and you guys don't have to deal with a nerf.
Sorry to derail the thread. My initial question stands.
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hi there, first post on TL so hello everyone and thanks for this goldmine of a website.
I'm awfully glad to see this build of yours going into fashion Spanishiwa, I've been using a somewhat similar build in my ZvP for a couple of weeks now with great success (based upon considering the fact that the two things I hate the most when playing against prot are x-gate pushes and phoenix openings, and the eco damage that goes with them). The fact that it seems to be possible to transfer it to ZvT and ZvZ is just awesome, so thanks a lot.
Now i've got a question focusing more specifically on the ZvP part: what are your thoughts on getting ling speed anyway at the beginning of the game, the way you would in a standard opening? The BO would look like 16 hatch 15 extractor 15 pool, or something along those lines. That's what I'm usually doing and I found out that it does not really hinder my ability to drone up and queen up (I might put an additional spine crawler or two at the beginning though), while helping me a lot against x gate pushes (allowing me to go snipe proxy pylons or counter attack or surround retreating stalkers).
I'm adding a replay to illustrate what I mean. I'm nowhere near good (high diamond), and I'm making a lot of mistakes in this game (I could have gotten a lot more queens with my excess minerals and start gas mining sooner), but still it feels like a good example of what I mean:
ZvP no gas FE speedling opening
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I'm a lowly gold scrub with terribad apm. I am loving this build. I lose most matches with it but thats an execution flaw rather than a flaw with the build. I know that even if I lose my mechanics are improving so I consider it a bit of an investment in the future. I love the "yeah I'm expanding bitch, what you gonna do about it!?" attitude and as they say, practice makes perfect. Or in my case, maybe not!
Thanks for sharing the build with the community and thanks for the positive and patient replies.
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On April 06 2011 15:10 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 13:21 pt wrote:On April 06 2011 12:48 Acritter wrote:On April 06 2011 08:51 Kogut wrote:On April 06 2011 07:53 Acritter wrote:
Sorry, back again trying to poke holes in this build. What would you do against a fast eight-marine stim drop? How about a Prism push into your main? From what I'm reading, you're going to be investing all your defenses in Spine Crawlers at your expansion, so an aggressive drop in your main will circumvent all your defenses entirely and deal a significant amount of damage, if not have a possibility of taking down your main Hatchery. You think a drop that could destroy the main would be out before the 4 queens? Do you also believe that they would be able to sneak the dropship past creep + overlords + lings + watchtower vision so that the Z couldn't prepare with some more zerglings or queens? How about you throw out some timings and see where they match up? Also addressing the guy two posts above you: Eight stimmed marines will kill four Queens, last I checked. Same with eight Stalkers/Zealots (four loaded in, four warped in). You also fail to acknowledge that by committing to this build, Zerg gives up any pretense of map control, and if the Overlord spread is anything approaching what you're suggesting, Zerg is in serious danger of suffering massive damage from things like the Void Ray Phoenix opening we've been seeing so much in PvZ of late. I'm not saying this build isn't effective, I'm just saying it's probably not the end-all to Zerg play. If it's as unassailable as you appear to think, then it's certain Zerg's going to get nerfed in an upcoming patch, because it's not healthy for the game for a Zerg player to be able to take an expansion and drone it up to max risk-free. you neeeed to make spine crawlers. don't be afraid to make a lot. you're spending all of your larva on drones and ovys until 44 drones. Sorry, I think you misunderstand what's going on. I'm a Protoss player trying to find weaknesses to this style of play for two reasons: one, to exploit myself, and two, to prevent this from becoming a flavor-of-the-month "broken" build, which I think we all hate.
oh i was responding to the first paragraph. what's wrong with having a decent build for once? you don't have to try to hard counter everything.. you can go macro if you see 4 queens and no gas.
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What to do if ur opponent for example terran is going some sort of early expansion too? Iam totally lost every time they do 15 nexus or 1 rax orbtialcommand expand openings. Cause if i had scouted it i would go 7rr or something like that but ur built scouting timing is way to late to switch to such things
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On April 06 2011 23:56 blackkiwi wrote:
What to do if ur opponent for example terran is going some sort of early expansion too? Iam totally lost every time they do 15 nexus or 1 rax orbtialcommand expand openings. Cause if i had scouted it i would go 7rr or something like that but ur built scouting timing is way to late to switch to such things
I think this is actually the big weakness of this build. Also against a terran who goes for something like 2 rax into expand. once the terrans sees youre investing in stationary defense and queens (who are pretty stationary aswell) he could just take his third before you.
Because of this i still think that using this build is developing bad habits. The thing is, on ladder, so many people play early pushes, and against that, this build is great, but if your opponent simply plays super greedy, you cannot punish him for that.
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On April 07 2011 00:00 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 23:56 blackkiwi wrote:
What to do if ur opponent for example terran is going some sort of early expansion too? Iam totally lost every time they do 15 nexus or 1 rax orbtialcommand expand openings. Cause if i had scouted it i would go 7rr or something like that but ur built scouting timing is way to late to switch to such things I think this is actually the big weakness of this build. Also against a terran who goes for something like 2 rax into expand. once the terrans sees youre investing in stationary defense and queens (who are pretty stationary aswell) he could just take his third before you. Because of this i still think that using this build is developing bad habits. The thing is, on ladder, so many people play early pushes, and against that, this build is great, but if your opponent simply plays super greedy, you cannot punish him for that.
In the case of a greedy terran couldn't you take a fast 3rd as well and go spire once you take the 4 gas and harass?
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I played a few ZvZs with a clan friend (alternating who would do this build) and I didn't really like it that much. I went 14 gas 14 pool --> pull drones after 100 gas --> hatch at 20, and this build sorta became "14 hatch for the sake of 14 hatching". Didn't really feel like the player who did this got that much of an advantage because of all the free room I had to drone, while you have to be paranoid of what im doing. The earlier lings just gave a lot of flexibility. While I have speedings on the field the 14 hatch player has to worry about the possibility of an all in and prepare accordingly (earlier queens even though you don't really need 2 that early in zvz, earlier roach warren, spine, etc) while I drone up and we end around even except I have earlier speed.
Also as a sidenote, the 1 spine every minute until you see a hatch thing is good as a general rule, but if I 14 gas I can easily make a hatch on time and still have enough money to make a round of lings with the first set of injected larva, which can catch a player with only 1 spine off guard.
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On April 07 2011 00:00 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 23:56 blackkiwi wrote:
What to do if ur opponent for example terran is going some sort of early expansion too? Iam totally lost every time they do 15 nexus or 1 rax orbtialcommand expand openings. Cause if i had scouted it i would go 7rr or something like that but ur built scouting timing is way to late to switch to such things I think this is actually the big weakness of this build. Also against a terran who goes for something like 2 rax into expand. once the terrans sees youre investing in stationary defense and queens (who are pretty stationary aswell) he could just take his third before you. Because of this i still think that using this build is developing bad habits. The thing is, on ladder, so many people play early pushes, and against that, this build is great, but if your opponent simply plays super greedy, you cannot punish him for that.
Hmm, I don't see how a terran could possibly expect to, and even if they tried, win a expand+saturate race against a zerg. Both droning and expanding is cheaper and faster for a Z, so if you see the T going for a third, then maybe just skip gas on the natural after the 40 food mark and expand again? I think the terran will eventually be playing catch up even if they have the head start from not getting those static defenses + the extra MULE.
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On April 06 2011 12:48 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 08:51 Kogut wrote:On April 06 2011 07:53 Acritter wrote:
Sorry, back again trying to poke holes in this build. What would you do against a fast eight-marine stim drop? How about a Prism push into your main? From what I'm reading, you're going to be investing all your defenses in Spine Crawlers at your expansion, so an aggressive drop in your main will circumvent all your defenses entirely and deal a significant amount of damage, if not have a possibility of taking down your main Hatchery. You think a drop that could destroy the main would be out before the 4 queens? Do you also believe that they would be able to sneak the dropship past creep + overlords + lings + watchtower vision so that the Z couldn't prepare with some more zerglings or queens? How about you throw out some timings and see where they match up? Also addressing the guy two posts above you: Eight stimmed marines will kill four Queens, last I checked. Same with eight Stalkers/Zealots (four loaded in, four warped in). You also fail to acknowledge that by committing to this build, Zerg gives up any pretense of map control, and if the Overlord spread is anything approaching what you're suggesting, Zerg is in serious danger of suffering massive damage from things like the Void Ray Phoenix opening we've been seeing so much in PvZ of late. I'm not saying this build isn't effective, I'm just saying it's probably not the end-all to Zerg play. If it's as unassailable as you appear to think, then it's certain Zerg's going to get nerfed in an upcoming patch, because it's not healthy for the game for a Zerg player to be able to take an expansion and drone it up to max risk-free.
Dont forget about transfuse, I think this should give Z enough time to reposition spine crawlers while using the queens to tank + deal damage against any drop play (stimmed marines will go down fast especially). I think drops are definitely dangerous vs this build, but with proper execution they should be defendable
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On April 07 2011 00:20 spacebarbarian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2011 00:00 DarKFoRcE wrote:On April 06 2011 23:56 blackkiwi wrote:
What to do if ur opponent for example terran is going some sort of early expansion too? Iam totally lost every time they do 15 nexus or 1 rax orbtialcommand expand openings. Cause if i had scouted it i would go 7rr or something like that but ur built scouting timing is way to late to switch to such things I think this is actually the big weakness of this build. Also against a terran who goes for something like 2 rax into expand. once the terrans sees youre investing in stationary defense and queens (who are pretty stationary aswell) he could just take his third before you. Because of this i still think that using this build is developing bad habits. The thing is, on ladder, so many people play early pushes, and against that, this build is great, but if your opponent simply plays super greedy, you cannot punish him for that. Hmm, I don't see how a terran could possibly expect to, and even if they tried, win a expand+saturate race against a zerg. Both droning and expanding is cheaper and faster for a Z, so if you see the T going for a third, then maybe just skip gas on the natural after the 40 food mark and expand again? I think the terran will eventually be playing catch up even if they have the head start from not getting those static defenses + the extra MULE.
Well, this is your opinion. I think if you invest in static defense like this and if terran does not have to worry about early speedling attacks (super late gas) and he can very well compete and imo will even come out ahead against this build...
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If you scout a super early expansion like a 15CC or 1 Rax Expansion from a Terran opponent you can just deviate though, no? This build is dropping multiple spine crawlers and making extra queens AFTER your expansion goes up. This means that you should be able to scout (drone?) if he's going for some sort of quick expand against you.
Really early expansions like this only run into trouble against builds like FFE from Protoss and hardcore bunker play off 2 Rax. And early ZvZ pressure, of course. I think that anything that gives you the option to be safe and ahead when not in that position (and honestly, drone scout should determine whether you 14g14p if you just scout close positions first on 4 player maps with a 10-12 scout) is a good build to have in your arsenal, though not to use exclusively.
tl;dr: Static Defense comes after greedy play from opponent, is scoutable
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On April 07 2011 00:57 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Well, this is your opinion. I think if you invest in static defense like this and if terran does not have to worry about early speedling attacks (super late gas) and he can very well compete and imo will even come out ahead against this build...
Thats exactly what i felt in several games. The counter to this is greedyness and that really sucks 
Maybe some fast switch to aggression could then again hurt you opponent but ... meeeh.
Before i saw this build i played around allready with getting late gas and it worked out several times. I think it should just be considered as one path you can switch your early game so Z isnt that predictable anymore in early games.
If you can force someone into greedyness then it might be a viable deviation(considerd you can again punish your opponent in tricking him with a decent transition out of this build)
Still its no "solution" to losing as Zerg just another neat strat - no FotM
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I've noted that around the 11-12 minute mark Span starts to harass his opponents by dropping banes and infestors into their mineral lines followed by zerglings into their main base; nullifying any type of economic lead they might have over Span, even if the opposing player is giving him large amounts of pressure at his base(s).
My opinion is that Span simply understands that the game greatly revolves around economy and has found a great BO and play style in an attempt to exploit that as much as possible. He's not doing any type of harassment that cannot be done by other races/players. Span has become very good at this style of play that is difficult to counter and is only going to get better at it.
Build orders do not make a great player, they help yes, however skill is going to defeat an opponent much more efficiently than any BO.
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On April 06 2011 19:27 Acritter wrote:
Seven Roach Rush.
lol, really? you mean the build that is countered by 2 sentries? an all-in build which denies the zerg's expansion until about 40 food. That's your example of FOTM overpowered build?
@darkforce, this build gives you such a booming economy, that Terran cannot keep up. The build relies on constant scouting more than most. If you see a command center, you throw down a hatchery, and in two rounds of injects the zerg 3rd is fully saturated. However, the real strength of this build is that you hit 2 base saturation, and you can just max on tier 1 with upgrades and attack. You get ling speed and a lair, then you get whatever the hell you want.
That said, I have lost to bunker rushes on stupid maps that the queen/crawler defense isnt very good on. Shattered Temple makes you feel very safe with these defenses, metalopolis on the other hand is full of nooks and crannies to hide cannons and bunkers. This takes us back to "this build relies on constant scouting more than most." Constant drone and overlord scouting early is a must, and ling scouting later also a must. You don't need ling speed to spend 1 supply on 2 zerglings looking at the 2 most obvious places for the Terran's 3rd.
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EPT
