EPT[G] An aggressive path in ZvP - Page 5
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Highlow
Finland16 Posts
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Pwere
Canada1557 Posts
On March 31 2011 04:45 Dragar wrote:I think there needs to be a plan to get scouting on a robo or not. If it's a heavy gateway army being made, this will fail badly, so that somehow needs to be accounted for, as well as a roach warren in case of a push. Since we're including a drop now in this build, getting fast overlord speed is gonna give us all the scouting we need at that point.I wonder if making some speedlings early to delay a nexus/threaten a backstab if he moves out would keep you safe from 3-gate. You need something certainly. And there are early speedlings included. As long as you don't see a nexus, you either save larvae or spawn zerglings. On map with open naturals, I don't think it can be a mistake to just make speedlings until any threat is gone. As for the roach warren, you can hold basically anything with speedlings + spine crawlers on most maps. Logically, on the maps where spine crawlers are less useful, your opponent will also have a harder time taking his expansion, thus making more speedlings is a decent option. | ||
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Obscura.304
150 Posts
Here's the replay that spurred the question: http://www.mediafire.com/?6y5m383ny15r6dh My drop got raped (ovies got killed while carrying), and I ended up getting trashed. | ||
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Bleez
Greece17 Posts
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insectoceanx
United States331 Posts
Most of the master level protosses dont even push 80 apm. A replay of this vs a 3gate expand into 6 gate +1 attack would be good. without roaches I dont know how will hold this off. | ||
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Pwere
Canada1557 Posts
On March 31 2011 14:12 Obscura.304 wrote: Make an overseer, snipe the observer. Then goo the robo while you attack to make sure that colossus never comes out, or at least it doesn't have range. I'm totally awful, (plat, but should be in gold if not silver- my record since the reset has been 2-4, and of my last 10, I'm 3-7), but what on earth are you supposed to do if he's got an observer following my overlords when I try to drop? Or snipe the observer, then take additional bases instead of attacking while he's frantically trying to find your drop until his new observer pops out. Or send empty overlords in his base, attack the front. Or stack your overlords, send half of them to one end of his base, the other half to the other end, and make him guess as to which side has the units. | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
 ) Just some remarks (which don't claim to put an end to discussion): 1) @ Dragar: I think your remarks on specific timings during which zerg is vulnerable are true. I just want to minimize this, for two reasons a - First these windows are quite short: the first one lasts from the moment your start lair to the moment you finish hydra den, both of which are two fast techs. just after that, your can start pumping hydras... it's also a timing where protoss pushes do not really happen that much (although they could potentially!) Most of the time tosses just fake push and retreat as soon as they see some running by zerglings. This is even more true for the second timing (just after hydra drop, before muta wave). This window is really small. b - Second and above all: these are very risky timings for protoss, as he is most of the time blind at that moment (after 3 gate expand, or after hydra drop). I have been discussing with protosses who were complaining of my build being imba; and i just ask them: "why didn't you put more pressure"? the answer was: "well, it's too risky, you could have a lot of zerglings at that time [say 7/8mn mark], even roaches, etc." for the second timing you mentioned: First, how can you know, after hydra drop, that mutas are coming in one mn; that zerg has nothing, and that you should go now? not obvious! Actually there are big reasons to think the contrary: imo, here is toss state of mind: " He just did some attack and somehow I dealt with it, although I lost a lot, so I am fine, stick to the original plan mass up units before going, at least wait for some colossi." I mean, would you go out, just after a significant push, with the few units left, without the colossi yet (coming soon, but not having them right then, or not enough, only one etc), whereas you know zerg can replenish his army quickly? not sure... This is reinforced by the fact that protoss is likely to undersestimate the problem, when he barely trades off armies. he may think situation is ok ("zerg made a timing push and sacrificed drone production to do it, I hold it; therefore I am better than him, even if I don't have much/any army left) whereas this is absolutely not the case, because of coming mutas: if armies were trade off during the drop, you are very likely to win with mutas push. But this may change for protoss players getting used to the build... Then zerg may have to make defense (still I think that zerg can definitely pump a lot of zerglings between 2nd and 3rd waves, if he didn't go for the most all-inish version of the strat) And above all, for the moment it's really not the case, so just enjoy it! About fake expand into late 4 gate push... I guess this may be really annoying, but I haven't faced it yet, so I can't really tell... Maybe throwing down lots of spines could be the less worse solution... 2)Yep I am not sure whether I have been playing it against 6 gate; I was told quite a lot that my opponents were not really good... So I would recommend, if you watch the replays, to look first the ones that I added recently with the hydra drop version, especially the one on xel naga caverns... (the opponent was favored, and I did'nt win right away... | ||
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GleefulGlee
38 Posts
watch squirtle vs moon shakura's plateau where he transitioned back to macro with an advantage in early game | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On March 31 2011 14:12 Obscura.304 wrote: I'm totally awful, (plat, but should be in gold if not silver- my record since the reset has been 2-4, and of my last 10, I'm 3-7), but what on earth are you supposed to do if he's got an observer following my overlords when I try to drop? Here's the replay that spurred the question: http://www.mediafire.com/?6y5m383ny15r6dh My drop got raped (ovies got killed while carrying), and I ended up getting trashed. Er, dude, you always want an overseer. | ||
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tGhOeOoDry
United States48 Posts
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
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Macpo
453 Posts
have a look at the replays^^ I would recommend this one particularly. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/154549-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns very often, you will win at the hydra drop stage, but this one rather shows the interest of mutas... | ||
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
Also you were damned lucky he didn't pressure with 3-gate; he turned his whole army to deal with a 2 ling runby. I doubt you could have stopped him if he'd poked. | ||
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N3rV[Green]
United States1935 Posts
Wonderful thought process into the build, and I'll be trying the idea out soon. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
Basically, ZvP is the new TvZ (but the Z is the T now) Remember some months ago, terran thought that you HAVE to do early damage or die in TvZ (now we see some TvZ with a non harass T who win, but that's not the point) The current state of ZvP is the same : the zerg has to delay the P, slow his macro, reduce his food count before the P is on 3 bases because at this point, the P macro and production capacity become unstoppable. When a P has 15+ warpgates, 1 stargate and 2 robos, larva inject can't keep up, and even if larva inject keep up, it's with vastly inferior cost effective units. But when the 2nd base zerg macro kick in, is the time where the zerg can macro and produce much, much, much faster than the P (a standard macro game will see the zerg hit 200 food when the P just have 130-145 food). So the point is to use and abuse this timing so the P can never begin power macroing. This timing is when the P still have 3-4 gate and one robo or stargate, with 2 nearly but not yet saturated bases. At this time roaches and lings are still cost effective, sentries don't have 200 energy and the more you trade, the better (and that's OP philosophy) I'm not a zerg expert, but the best example I saw are either Mondragon games in TSL or some Moon games in IEM Cologne. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
The first is that it is well-thought out, and well-explained, and thoroughly supported with replays and evidence. Everything you do has a clear reason, and what's best of all is it isn't some gimmicky, "at 20 food make x, at 24 make y" kind of build, its more like a general thought process/philosophy. In other words, this isn't just a single tactic, it is a full strategy, and from what I can see a good one. The second is the way it challenges common assumptions about how one "has" to play the game. "Zerg are defensive and macro oriented." Well, who says they have to be? "Hydras suck." Do they always, in all situations and timings? What if there's a timing where they don't suck, and what if there's a way to take advantage of it? The game is young yet. And the logic here is sound. It exploits a number of key timings (the 10 minute mark in particular, but also the 2-base period when Zerg macro can pump out a billion units much faster than the toss can) and it takes some good ideas and makes them better (as with using Hydras to neutralize sentries and kill stalkers before the muta following...god idea, but Hydra drops is an even better one with fewer holes). But the last reason I love this is very simple: it looks fun. At the end of the day, its a game. If we don't enjoy it, why play? Hanging on for dear life, frantically macroing in fear...that doesn't sound that fun. maybe once in a while, but not all the time. But you know what does sound fun? Whipping up an army in the first 10 minutes that can go kick your opponent's ass. This does that. Bravo. | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
EDIT: I see how July executed a much refined version of build, and even went one step further with another transition after mutas into banes. He goes roach warren first before lair, and even got roach speed in case he got 6-gated, but ended up not making a single roach. His plan was similar to yours, opening with lings to take map control on low econ ~30-35 drones --> transitioning into hydras for a bit of pressure (if opponent did not 6-gate) --> make 7 mutas for harass while droning up to 60-65 and taking 2 more bases --> mass speedling/baneling up to 200 --> go kill P before his death ball gets too big Game 4 http://www.gomtv.net/2011championship/vod/63894 | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
it should be easy to use a ling early and a speed ovie later to see these protoss attacks coming. From there it's a matter of finding an effective defense that doesn't mess too much with your overall plans. | ||
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JL_GG
Canada249 Posts
that's wat i thought too zerg cannot play too much macro with protoss since deathball is just too strong if both r maxed | ||
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Renzin
Australia75 Posts
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