"Great post! Finally a zerg is thinking outside the box." Terminator
"Dude, THANK YOU, this is sooo sexy..." Evilruler
"This is a great strategy, and also a great start for ZvP.
Zerg finally goes back into the aggressive harassment mode it's been known for, instead of dronedrone." Tracedragon
"But the last reason I love this is very simple: it looks fun. At the end of the day, its a game. If we don't enjoy it, why play? Hanging on for dear life, frantically macroing in fear...that doesn't sound that fun. maybe once in a while, but not all the time. But you know what does sound fun? Whipping up an army in the first 10 minutes that can go kick your opponent's ass. This does that."
awesomoecalypse
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"I love mutas and have been looking for a way to incorporate them into my ZvP with no luck but this looks interesting, I'lll definately give it a go" vol_
"I have been using this and while im a plat zerg, i have been beating master protoss:" DanLegend
"Good post, well written post!" Grendel
"It's very encouraging to see a strategy that has a chance to work as a general principle rather than some kind of ten-second rush window." Umpteen
"big up mapco for sharing this!" enykie
"Macpo, this is awesome. I played around with it a bunch yesterday, first against the AI to get used to the build and then vs a practice partner to see how well I could pull it off against a real opponent. I went 2-2 against him with this build. I tried it 4 times straight, just to give it a shot, without caring what build my practice buddy was using. I even told him I was going to use this build every time, and he still lost to it twice(he thought I was joking about doing this a bunch). He said 15+ hydras and lings were a real shock because other zergs just don't do this kind of thing."
ZombiesOMG
"tryed your Strat in a game on Xelnaga and it worked wonders!" Tumor
"just watched some of the replays, it seems to me that the transition from a hydra force to trade out some of his ground army into a quick muta follow up is really good." DoT_TL
"thank you man nice strategy!" Bleez
"Who's awesome? OP's awesome." tGhOeOoDry
"just want to say I showed this thread to some of my Zerg friends who've tried it out against me in practice, and its quite, quite nasty." awesomoecalypse
"today i got a protoss in a ladder session and i tried this strategy out the first time and i rly have to say that after playing it, it feels pretty damn nice" eliquo
"I like the idea behind this, like "if your opponent is doing or might be doing something you can't deal with, just kill him before he does it"."
fenX
"I have been using this and while im a plat zerg, i have been beating master protoss:" DanLegend
"Good post, well written post!" Grendel
"It's very encouraging to see a strategy that has a chance to work as a general principle rather than some kind of ten-second rush window." Umpteen
"big up mapco for sharing this!" enykie
"Macpo, this is awesome. I played around with it a bunch yesterday, first against the AI to get used to the build and then vs a practice partner to see how well I could pull it off against a real opponent. I went 2-2 against him with this build. I tried it 4 times straight, just to give it a shot, without caring what build my practice buddy was using. I even told him I was going to use this build every time, and he still lost to it twice(he thought I was joking about doing this a bunch). He said 15+ hydras and lings were a real shock because other zergs just don't do this kind of thing."
ZombiesOMG
"tryed your Strat in a game on Xelnaga and it worked wonders!" Tumor
"just watched some of the replays, it seems to me that the transition from a hydra force to trade out some of his ground army into a quick muta follow up is really good." DoT_TL
"thank you man nice strategy!" Bleez
"Who's awesome? OP's awesome." tGhOeOoDry
"just want to say I showed this thread to some of my Zerg friends who've tried it out against me in practice, and its quite, quite nasty." awesomoecalypse
"today i got a protoss in a ladder session and i tried this strategy out the first time and i rly have to say that after playing it, it feels pretty damn nice" eliquo
"I like the idea behind this, like "if your opponent is doing or might be doing something you can't deal with, just kill him before he does it"."
fenX
This is a two part thread, one about the disease, the other one about the cure. For the BO, go directly part 2. It basically consists in several pushes at key timings, with zerglings, hydras and mutas from a 2 base structure.
The syndrom of macro zerg.
Dear fellow zergs,
A long long time ago, in a far far away galaxy, zergs were highly addicted to macro. Smokers will tell you: it's really hard to quit. It requires will, substitutes, you will go through rage and anger. And yet, having stopped in itself does not bring so much tangible reward in the short term. It is only way later, when you watch the distant past from the present harmony that you realize how lost you were.
So is it for macro zerg: We have so long been addicted to drones, creep spread and larva injections. We can't give it up like that.
Yet, I want to give it a try. And first, to counterbalance such difficulties, I will give you something. Not much, perhaps almost nothing for someone addicted. Not even an idea: we are just going to start with a question you should ask yourself.
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Am I a victim of the macro zerg symptom? here is a simple test to detect the most pathological situations:
1.
2.
More precisely:
3. When I close my eyes and think about "protoss" ,
If you say yes to two of the three questions, time has come for treatment.
1.
Poll: Anytime I build zerglings, do I feel I should be making drones?
yes (591)
83%
no (117)
17%
708 total votes
no (117)
708 total votes
Your vote: Anytime I build zerglings, do I feel I should be making drones?
2.
Poll: Do I feel guilt unless I have at least one more base than my opponent?
yes (471)
89%
no (56)
11%
527 total votes
no (56)
527 total votes
Your vote: Do I feel guilt unless I have at least one more base than my opponent?
More precisely:
3. When I close my eyes and think about "protoss" ,
Poll: do I see a 30 mn long game, where nothing happens until I get crushed?
yes (248)
53%
no (224)
47%
472 total votes
no (224)
472 total votes
Your vote: do I see a 30 mn long game, where nothing happens until I get crushed?
If you say yes to two of the three questions, time has come for treatment.
The real problem of ZvP.
We all know that there is some kind of problem in Zerg vs Protoss, as our dear friend Mr Bitter reminded us recently. Countless solutions have been suggested to deal with the colossus void ray death ball. I can remember of : mass ccorruptors, mass mutas, mass queens+ultralisks, more recently ultralisks and banelings, or strategies revolving around fungal growth. Latest but not least "multi pronged attacks". To be coming soon: multi-pronged massive pushes of creep tumors with 2/2 upgrades, with massive evolution chamber broodlings and massive self funged muta megadrops.
Won't you agree with me that all these strategies share the same symptoms? Don't they all have the same taste? (impossible to realise for the low APM retarded player that we all feel to be, requiring insane macro management on four bases, and so on? What is the name for that?
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Yes! you got it: MACRO. We are all victims of the now infamous macro zerg syndrom. Let's change our metagame habits, and start thinking about aggression.
II. How I stopped seeing pink toss deathballs in my dreams.
"Wait, so let me try to get this straight, this is... Speedlings to force him to stay in his base, then a wave of Hydralisks followed up by a shit ton of Mutalisks?" branflakes14
I have been looking for aggressive (non all-in) strats vs protoss for a long long time… I got demoted to diamond for that (by now back in masters though. I have been working on countless timings and unit compositions, got isolated, humiliated, lonely in my love for fight.
And yet, as the explorers of the Ancient times, after years of pain and frustration, I found a way to cure ourselves from the macro zerg syndrom (tatam). It is all about being aggressive. I will talk here about fast expanding protosses, which are the core the protoss play. By that I mean, forge expand and three gate sentries expand. I will take three gate expand as the ideal situation, as forge FE doesn't require much adaptation, beyond common sense things.
The plan is simple. It's neither macro, nor cheesy. It consists in several nicely coordinated pushes at key timings, from a two base structure. Your hope is that your opponent will end up losing to one of your three main waves of attack (ZHM): zergling harassment from 6 to 8 min; Hydra push between 10 and 11 min; followed by mutas, one spire later . Elements of this may be well known to some players, but not the combination of all. Although it requires a bit of practice to become efficient, it requires no high APM whatsoever (although better mechanics will definitely help), and is quite flexible in several aspects. You can definitely have decent ZvP rate of win (mine being around 60-65% since my discovery, in Master league, as compared to 40% before).
EDIT: It has become quite clear that an hydra drop is significantly better than a classical hydra push (avoiding forcefields, static defense, having good unit positioning around the choke, etc). So I would recommend switching from hydras to hydra drop for this second wave. Since then, my win ratio has risen to 69%! in ZvP (and this includes crappy games where I do other strats, where I stupidely forget stuff, custom games against much higher players, etc).
Let's now get into the details of this strat.
I. A new hope: Zerglings.
a. The original situation.
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The frame is a very classical speedling into expand, as follows.
14 gas, 14 pool
@100% pool, queen and speed + remove 2 drones from gas. make 2 sets of zerlings.
21/22 expand, followed by a second queen. drones until 26 food. Don't forget ovies.
14 gas, 14 pool
@100% pool, queen and speed + remove 2 drones from gas. make 2 sets of zerlings.
21/22 expand, followed by a second queen. drones until 26 food. Don't forget ovies.
b. first decisions and variations: waiting for the expand.
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First, make sure you are in the expected situation, i.e. that the toss is not 4 gating or 1 base delayed pushing. It's pretty easy to scout for a 4 gate. To scout for a three gate expand (from the 6th mn), the main signs are: not much cybernetic core chronoboost, some sentries.
When you are waiting for the expand, there are three possibilities:
1. early expand: you don't need to make zerglings, but you can do it, to put pressure (it'll bring you to the most aggressive variations of the build).
2. late expand: you shall make zerglings until you clearly see the expand.
3. no expand: after some point waiting for an expand that is not coming, go for lair tech, make hydras anyway and wait for a 1 base delayed push. Things should be fine.
Generally you will have some lings.
THE FIRST WAVE is ready to hit. This wave is a small wave, just to put pressure. War starts not in a roar but in a whisper.
just harass with zerglings while going to step II, to delay his expand, kill some sentries if possible, whatever you can do. But don't loose your zerglings please… because they will be very helpful later.
(Generally speaking, when waiting for the expand, remember that you can delay a bit your builds, for instance by building overlords until 52 or 60 food, before making units or drones, etc. so that you can choose with enough information.)
When you are waiting for the expand, there are three possibilities:
1. early expand: you don't need to make zerglings, but you can do it, to put pressure (it'll bring you to the most aggressive variations of the build).
2. late expand: you shall make zerglings until you clearly see the expand.
3. no expand: after some point waiting for an expand that is not coming, go for lair tech, make hydras anyway and wait for a 1 base delayed push. Things should be fine.
Generally you will have some lings.
THE FIRST WAVE is ready to hit. This wave is a small wave, just to put pressure. War starts not in a roar but in a whisper.
just harass with zerglings while going to step II, to delay his expand, kill some sentries if possible, whatever you can do. But don't loose your zerglings please… because they will be very helpful later.
(Generally speaking, when waiting for the expand, remember that you can delay a bit your builds, for instance by building overlords until 52 or 60 food, before making units or drones, etc. so that you can choose with enough information.)
II. The Swarm strikes back (with Hydras).
EDIT: here again, I would recommend switching from hydras to hydra drop, i.e. getting drop and speed techs for overlords... you will have a couple of units less, but they will be much more efficient.
a. general structure.
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When you see the expand you have two bases with two queens, you are at around 20/21 drones, have a bunch of zerglings, and one guy mining gas, From this point until the 11 mn hydra push, precise BO recommendations don't make sense.
Just:
- go to lair (you should have enough gas, with the drone left),
- get your FOUR gases. There are some hydra push with only two gases, but as you want to get a spire, you'd better get four. Not necessarily at once. I would recommend to put back 3 guys in gas, build one other gas, make a round of drones, and build two other gases. But don't take your gases too late.
Gas timing is important as (with number of initial zerlings) it will make your build more or less aggressive, more or less ground or air-based.
- get drones.:
In the most aggressive variations you can just make around 12 drones more (i.e. one round and a half on two bases with larva injections). The most macro oriented variations will bring you to around 50 drones(that will bring you to 4 bases plans).
b. prepare for fight! you little lazy coward macro zerg!
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- After your lair has finished, go for hydra den. produce some hydras and zerglings. (all these steps may well overlap! that's no big deal).
The interest of hydras is that they will counter air attacks + deal reasonably well with sentries (as opposed to roaches). The timing of hydra range will depend on the amount of pressure the toss puts on you, as you may want to have some hydras quicker, instead of range. But it is necessary to have it for the push.If possible hide your hydra den with overlord creep; and your hydras too. Spread creep for hydras' speed. (possibly use some overlords to create a path to the opponent's base).
During this period, you may face some attacks from the protoss or more likely "pressure" (as early gate pressure or starport pressure); most of them will be done easily thanks to hydras. Things to have in mind: a void ray is really good news, as you will smash it with hydras and counter easily. Phoenixes are more difficult to deal with. as they will pick up hydras one by one. yet, against air pressure, you will have a strong advantage if you push in his natural. Against early gateway units pressure, don't let them leave for free if you can smash them, while they are "pretending to attack".
The interest of hydras is that they will counter air attacks + deal reasonably well with sentries (as opposed to roaches). The timing of hydra range will depend on the amount of pressure the toss puts on you, as you may want to have some hydras quicker, instead of range. But it is necessary to have it for the push.If possible hide your hydra den with overlord creep; and your hydras too. Spread creep for hydras' speed. (possibly use some overlords to create a path to the opponent's base).
During this period, you may face some attacks from the protoss or more likely "pressure" (as early gate pressure or starport pressure); most of them will be done easily thanks to hydras. Things to have in mind: a void ray is really good news, as you will smash it with hydras and counter easily. Phoenixes are more difficult to deal with. as they will pick up hydras one by one. yet, against air pressure, you will have a strong advantage if you push in his natural. Against early gateway units pressure, don't let them leave for free if you can smash them, while they are "pretending to attack".
c. at 10mn,
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THE SECOND WAVE IS READY. I guess a good number is around 12/15 hydras and 30/50 zerglings around 10th minut. Make the hydras go first, and pump lings to join them on the road to your opponent natural. You should be in his base at around 10:30/11. Later you would meet colossi.
Don't mess up your second attack. This one is not harassment, you are going to inflict serious damage. The difficulty is to deal correctly with forcefields, so that you don't get completely blocked off for 15 or 30 secs. Generally this is not the case, because of hydras range. Some advice: avoid narrow roads, small chokes (higher positions in metalopolis for instance; scrap station small road, shakuras plateaux). Destroy units first, not buildings, and don't let them retreat in the back of their base. There is yet a key building to target, if you can: the cybernetic core, to prepare the following wave.
Sometimes you will win at this stage. Yet, the objective is not that high. The objective is the following: if at the end of the push, the protoss player has no more stalkers (for instance if the fight ends up in a draw), you are more than fine, because mutas are coming.
(You may want to make a round of drones just after your second wave . That's up to you! if you want to be aggressive or not.)
Don't mess up your second attack. This one is not harassment, you are going to inflict serious damage. The difficulty is to deal correctly with forcefields, so that you don't get completely blocked off for 15 or 30 secs. Generally this is not the case, because of hydras range. Some advice: avoid narrow roads, small chokes (higher positions in metalopolis for instance; scrap station small road, shakuras plateaux). Destroy units first, not buildings, and don't let them retreat in the back of their base. There is yet a key building to target, if you can: the cybernetic core, to prepare the following wave.
Sometimes you will win at this stage. Yet, the objective is not that high. The objective is the following: if at the end of the push, the protoss player has no more stalkers (for instance if the fight ends up in a draw), you are more than fine, because mutas are coming.
(You may want to make a round of drones just after your second wave . That's up to you! if you want to be aggressive or not.)
III. The return of the Jedi. (or why our dear old Mutas still rock in zvp).
When you leave your base with hydras for the second wave, you shall build a spire. When the spire is finished, just make as much mutas as you can.
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THE THIRD WAVE IS READY:
These mutas should really be arriving a couple of seconds after your 2nd wave has ended. The number of mutas you make will depend on your gas timings earlier, but to give an idea, it should be between 8 and 15. In my opinion, this is very efficient.
Become protoss for a second. You hold with difficulty some push, you don’t have much left, but the zerg apparently lost most of his army too; your colossi went out, you still have two bases mining. And yet, you see 12 mutas in your mineral line, against which colossi are completely useless.
I have experienced many psychological reactions here: rage quit complains about zerg is OP and so on… But not always, so stay focused.
Basically, there are two ways.
You have been very aggressive from the beginning, and you don't have much money to do anything but building mutas (you play with 30/35 drones, 12 of which are in gas). Then, just constantly reproduce mutas and harass until victory, that works pretty well.
If you took the more macro-oriented strat, you can probably take one or two expands (don't hesitate to take two!). Actually, you have to do it to pump lings, or otherwise you minerals will just pile up, cause muta/lings is larva intensive…
These mutas should really be arriving a couple of seconds after your 2nd wave has ended. The number of mutas you make will depend on your gas timings earlier, but to give an idea, it should be between 8 and 15. In my opinion, this is very efficient.
Become protoss for a second. You hold with difficulty some push, you don’t have much left, but the zerg apparently lost most of his army too; your colossi went out, you still have two bases mining. And yet, you see 12 mutas in your mineral line, against which colossi are completely useless.
I have experienced many psychological reactions here: rage quit complains about zerg is OP and so on… But not always, so stay focused.
Basically, there are two ways.
You have been very aggressive from the beginning, and you don't have much money to do anything but building mutas (you play with 30/35 drones, 12 of which are in gas). Then, just constantly reproduce mutas and harass until victory, that works pretty well.
If you took the more macro-oriented strat, you can probably take one or two expands (don't hesitate to take two!). Actually, you have to do it to pump lings, or otherwise you minerals will just pile up, cause muta/lings is larva intensive…
Maps pros and cons:
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Generally speaking it's a bit better to have long distance positions. it'll avoid the protoss to be too pushy between your waves. One mistake I did in the beginning for instance was to break rocks in scrap station with hydras, which opened the way for good counters from the toss, and weaken my muta harass.
Things are significantly more difficult with narrow chokes (for instance in Shakuras plateaux), but this is not a problem anymore, as anyone knows.
Things are significantly more difficult with narrow chokes (for instance in Shakuras plateaux), but this is not a problem anymore, as anyone knows.
General remarks.
What makes this strat worth a try?
1. you can adapt to nearly every protoss strat without too much difficulty.
2. good timings
3. efficient transitioning (from hydras to mutas, hitting the protoss in two very different ways (in the front// in the back ; air units vs ground units ).
4. Potentially, many possible variations, depending on your gas timings, number of early zerglings, number of drones rounds before and after the hydra push.
5. No roaches, no corruptors, no death ball to deal with… Isn't that freedom?
Since my remission, I have not seen any colossus void ray ball AT ALL. Not one in around 50 zvps; and I have the initiative in all my games, not just waiting to get killed!
REPLAYS: (I give only my wins, keeping my losses away from public spaces where protosses could be watching us).
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/153225-1v1-protoss-zerg-shakuras-plateau
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/153224-1v1-protoss-zerg-gutterhulk
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/153223-1v1-protoss-zerg-gutterhulk
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/153222-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/153221-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-station
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/153220-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-station
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/153219-1v1-protoss-zerg-gutterhulk
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/153218-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/153217-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-station
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/153216-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-station
EDIT: as the hydra drop version seems to be better, I would recommend watching these replays first.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/154550-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-station
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/154549-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/154548-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-station
Against six gate, a bad - yet won - game.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/157863-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns