• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 00:17
CEST 06:17
KST 13:17
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall9HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL60Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?13FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event19Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster16Weekly Cups (June 16-22): Clem strikes back1
StarCraft 2
General
Program: SC2 / XSplit / OBS Scene Switcher Statistics for vetoed/disliked maps The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? PiG Sty Festival #5: Playoffs Preview + Groups Recap
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Korean Starcraft League Week 77 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Semi Finals & Finals
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady
Brood War
General
Player “Jedi” cheat on CSL ASL20 Preliminary Maps SC uni coach streams logging into betting site Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BGH Mineral Boosts Tutorial Video
Tourneys
[BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 512 users

[G] An aggressive path in ZvP

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
Macpo
Profile Joined September 2010
453 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-09 08:15:07
March 22 2011 22:25 GMT
#1
An aggressive path in ZvP (how I stopped seeing pink toss deathballs in my dreams...)



"Great post! Finally a zerg is thinking outside the box." Terminator

"Dude, THANK YOU, this is sooo sexy..." Evilruler

"This is a great strategy, and also a great start for ZvP.
Zerg finally goes back into the aggressive harassment mode it's been known for, instead of dronedrone."
Tracedragon

"But the last reason I love this is very simple: it looks fun. At the end of the day, its a game. If we don't enjoy it, why play? Hanging on for dear life, frantically macroing in fear...that doesn't sound that fun. maybe once in a while, but not all the time. But you know what does sound fun? Whipping up an army in the first 10 minutes that can go kick your opponent's ass. This does that."
awesomoecalypse

+ Show Spoiler +
"I love mutas and have been looking for a way to incorporate them into my ZvP with no luck but this looks interesting, I'lll definately give it a go" vol_

"I have been using this and while im a plat zerg, i have been beating master protoss:" DanLegend

"Good post, well written post!" Grendel

"It's very encouraging to see a strategy that has a chance to work as a general principle rather than some kind of ten-second rush window." Umpteen

"big up mapco for sharing this!"
enykie

"Macpo, this is awesome. I played around with it a bunch yesterday, first against the AI to get used to the build and then vs a practice partner to see how well I could pull it off against a real opponent. I went 2-2 against him with this build. I tried it 4 times straight, just to give it a shot, without caring what build my practice buddy was using. I even told him I was going to use this build every time, and he still lost to it twice(he thought I was joking about doing this a bunch). He said 15+ hydras and lings were a real shock because other zergs just don't do this kind of thing."
ZombiesOMG


"tryed your Strat in a game on Xelnaga and it worked wonders!" Tumor

"just watched some of the replays, it seems to me that the transition from a hydra force to trade out some of his ground army into a quick muta follow up is really good." DoT_TL

"thank you man nice strategy!" Bleez

"Who's awesome? OP's awesome." tGhOeOoDry

"just want to say I showed this thread to some of my Zerg friends who've tried it out against me in practice, and its quite, quite nasty." awesomoecalypse

"today i got a protoss in a ladder session and i tried this strategy out the first time and i rly have to say that after playing it, it feels pretty damn nice" eliquo



"I like the idea behind this, like "if your opponent is doing or might be doing something you can't deal with, just kill him before he does it"."
fenX


This is a two part thread, one about the disease, the other one about the cure. For the BO, go directly part 2. It basically consists in several pushes at key timings, with zerglings, hydras and mutas from a 2 base structure.


The syndrom of macro zerg.


Dear fellow zergs,

A long long time ago, in a far far away galaxy, zergs were highly addicted to macro. Smokers will tell you: it's really hard to quit. It requires will, substitutes, you will go through rage and anger. And yet, having stopped in itself does not bring so much tangible reward in the short term. It is only way later, when you watch the distant past from the present harmony that you realize how lost you were.

So is it for macro zerg: We have so long been addicted to drones, creep spread and larva injections. We can't give it up like that.

Yet, I want to give it a try. And first, to counterbalance such difficulties, I will give you something. Not much, perhaps almost nothing for someone addicted. Not even an idea: we are just going to start with a question you should ask yourself.

+ Show Spoiler +
Am I a victim of the macro zerg symptom? here is a simple test to detect the most pathological situations:

1.
Poll: Anytime I build zerglings, do I feel I should be making drones?

yes (591)
 
83%

no (117)
 
17%

708 total votes

Your vote: Anytime I build zerglings, do I feel I should be making drones?

(Vote): yes
(Vote): no







2.
Poll: Do I feel guilt unless I have at least one more base than my opponent?

yes (471)
 
89%

no (56)
 
11%

527 total votes

Your vote: Do I feel guilt unless I have at least one more base than my opponent?

(Vote): yes
(Vote): no







More precisely:

3. When I close my eyes and think about "protoss" ,
Poll: do I see a 30 mn long game, where nothing happens until I get crushed?

yes (248)
 
53%

no (224)
 
47%

472 total votes

Your vote: do I see a 30 mn long game, where nothing happens until I get crushed?

(Vote): yes
(Vote): no




If you say yes to two of the three questions, time has come for treatment.



The real problem of ZvP.


We all know that there is some kind of problem in Zerg vs Protoss, as our dear friend Mr Bitter reminded us recently. Countless solutions have been suggested to deal with the colossus void ray death ball. I can remember of : mass ccorruptors, mass mutas, mass queens+ultralisks, more recently ultralisks and banelings, or strategies revolving around fungal growth. Latest but not least "multi pronged attacks". To be coming soon: multi-pronged massive pushes of creep tumors with 2/2 upgrades, with massive evolution chamber broodlings and massive self funged muta megadrops.

Won't you agree with me that all these strategies share the same symptoms? Don't they all have the same taste? (impossible to realise for the low APM retarded player that we all feel to be, requiring insane macro management on four bases, and so on? What is the name for that?

+ Show Spoiler +
Yes! you got it: MACRO. We are all victims of the now infamous macro zerg syndrom. Let's change our metagame habits, and start thinking about aggression.




II. How I stopped seeing pink toss deathballs in my dreams.

"Wait, so let me try to get this straight, this is... Speedlings to force him to stay in his base, then a wave of Hydralisks followed up by a shit ton of Mutalisks?" branflakes14

I have been looking for aggressive (non all-in) strats vs protoss for a long long time… I got demoted to diamond for that (by now back in masters though. I have been working on countless timings and unit compositions, got isolated, humiliated, lonely in my love for fight.

And yet, as the explorers of the Ancient times, after years of pain and frustration, I found a way to cure ourselves from the macro zerg syndrom (tatam). It is all about being aggressive. I will talk here about fast expanding protosses, which are the core the protoss play. By that I mean, forge expand and three gate sentries expand. I will take three gate expand as the ideal situation, as forge FE doesn't require much adaptation, beyond common sense things.

The plan is simple. It's neither macro, nor cheesy. It consists in several nicely coordinated pushes at key timings, from a two base structure. Your hope is that your opponent will end up losing to one of your three main waves of attack (ZHM): zergling harassment from 6 to 8 min; Hydra push between 10 and 11 min; followed by mutas, one spire later . Elements of this may be well known to some players, but not the combination of all. Although it requires a bit of practice to become efficient, it requires no high APM whatsoever (although better mechanics will definitely help), and is quite flexible in several aspects. You can definitely have decent ZvP rate of win (mine being around 60-65% since my discovery, in Master league, as compared to 40% before).

EDIT: It has become quite clear that an hydra drop is significantly better than a classical hydra push (avoiding forcefields, static defense, having good unit positioning around the choke, etc). So I would recommend switching from hydras to hydra drop for this second wave. Since then, my win ratio has risen to 69%! in ZvP (and this includes crappy games where I do other strats, where I stupidely forget stuff, custom games against much higher players, etc).

Let's now get into the details of this strat.


I. A new hope: Zerglings.


a. The original situation.

+ Show Spoiler +
The frame is a very classical speedling into expand, as follows.
14 gas, 14 pool
@100% pool, queen and speed + remove 2 drones from gas. make 2 sets of zerlings.
21/22 expand, followed by a second queen. drones until 26 food. Don't forget ovies.


b. first decisions and variations: waiting for the expand.

+ Show Spoiler +
First, make sure you are in the expected situation, i.e. that the toss is not 4 gating or 1 base delayed pushing. It's pretty easy to scout for a 4 gate. To scout for a three gate expand (from the 6th mn), the main signs are: not much cybernetic core chronoboost, some sentries.

When you are waiting for the expand, there are three possibilities:
1. early expand: you don't need to make zerglings, but you can do it, to put pressure (it'll bring you to the most aggressive variations of the build).
2. late expand: you shall make zerglings until you clearly see the expand.
3. no expand: after some point waiting for an expand that is not coming, go for lair tech, make hydras anyway and wait for a 1 base delayed push. Things should be fine.

Generally you will have some lings.

THE FIRST WAVE is ready to hit. This wave is a small wave, just to put pressure. War starts not in a roar but in a whisper.

just harass with zerglings while going to step II, to delay his expand, kill some sentries if possible, whatever you can do. But don't loose your zerglings please… because they will be very helpful later.

(Generally speaking, when waiting for the expand, remember that you can delay a bit your builds, for instance by building overlords until 52 or 60 food, before making units or drones, etc. so that you can choose with enough information.)



II. The Swarm strikes back (with Hydras).

EDIT: here again, I would recommend switching from hydras to hydra drop, i.e. getting drop and speed techs for overlords... you will have a couple of units less, but they will be much more efficient.

a. general structure.

+ Show Spoiler +


When you see the expand you have two bases with two queens, you are at around 20/21 drones, have a bunch of zerglings, and one guy mining gas, From this point until the 11 mn hydra push, precise BO recommendations don't make sense.

Just:
- go to lair (you should have enough gas, with the drone left),
- get your FOUR gases. There are some hydra push with only two gases, but as you want to get a spire, you'd better get four. Not necessarily at once. I would recommend to put back 3 guys in gas, build one other gas, make a round of drones, and build two other gases. But don't take your gases too late.
Gas timing is important as (with number of initial zerlings) it will make your build more or less aggressive, more or less ground or air-based.
- get drones.:
In the most aggressive variations you can just make around 12 drones more (i.e. one round and a half on two bases with larva injections). The most macro oriented variations will bring you to around 50 drones(that will bring you to 4 bases plans).


b. prepare for fight! you little lazy coward macro zerg!

+ Show Spoiler +
- After your lair has finished, go for hydra den. produce some hydras and zerglings. (all these steps may well overlap! that's no big deal).

The interest of hydras is that they will counter air attacks + deal reasonably well with sentries (as opposed to roaches). The timing of hydra range will depend on the amount of pressure the toss puts on you, as you may want to have some hydras quicker, instead of range. But it is necessary to have it for the push.If possible hide your hydra den with overlord creep; and your hydras too. Spread creep for hydras' speed. (possibly use some overlords to create a path to the opponent's base).

During this period, you may face some attacks from the protoss or more likely "pressure" (as early gate pressure or starport pressure); most of them will be done easily thanks to hydras. Things to have in mind: a void ray is really good news, as you will smash it with hydras and counter easily. Phoenixes are more difficult to deal with. as they will pick up hydras one by one. yet, against air pressure, you will have a strong advantage if you push in his natural. Against early gateway units pressure, don't let them leave for free if you can smash them, while they are "pretending to attack".


c. at 10mn,

+ Show Spoiler +
THE SECOND WAVE IS READY. I guess a good number is around 12/15 hydras and 30/50 zerglings around 10th minut. Make the hydras go first, and pump lings to join them on the road to your opponent natural. You should be in his base at around 10:30/11. Later you would meet colossi.

Don't mess up your second attack. This one is not harassment, you are going to inflict serious damage. The difficulty is to deal correctly with forcefields, so that you don't get completely blocked off for 15 or 30 secs. Generally this is not the case, because of hydras range. Some advice: avoid narrow roads, small chokes (higher positions in metalopolis for instance; scrap station small road, shakuras plateaux). Destroy units first, not buildings, and don't let them retreat in the back of their base. There is yet a key building to target, if you can: the cybernetic core, to prepare the following wave.

Sometimes you will win at this stage. Yet, the objective is not that high. The objective is the following: if at the end of the push, the protoss player has no more stalkers (for instance if the fight ends up in a draw), you are more than fine, because mutas are coming.

(You may want to make a round of drones just after your second wave . That's up to you! if you want to be aggressive or not.)



III. The return of the Jedi. (or why our dear old Mutas still rock in zvp).


When you leave your base with hydras for the second wave, you shall build a spire. When the spire is finished, just make as much mutas as you can.

+ Show Spoiler +
THE THIRD WAVE IS READY:

These mutas should really be arriving a couple of seconds after your 2nd wave has ended
. The number of mutas you make will depend on your gas timings earlier, but to give an idea, it should be between 8 and 15. In my opinion, this is very efficient.
Become protoss for a second. You hold with difficulty some push, you don’t have much left, but the zerg apparently lost most of his army too; your colossi went out, you still have two bases mining. And yet, you see 12 mutas in your mineral line, against which colossi are completely useless.

I have experienced many psychological reactions here: rage quit complains about zerg is OP and so on… But not always, so stay focused.

Basically, there are two ways.

You have been very aggressive from the beginning, and you don't have much money to do anything but building mutas (you play with 30/35 drones, 12 of which are in gas). Then, just constantly reproduce mutas and harass until victory, that works pretty well.

If you took the more macro-oriented strat, you can probably take one or two expands (don't hesitate to take two!). Actually, you have to do it to pump lings, or otherwise you minerals will just pile up, cause muta/lings is larva intensive…


Maps pros and cons:

+ Show Spoiler +
Generally speaking it's a bit better to have long distance positions. it'll avoid the protoss to be too pushy between your waves. One mistake I did in the beginning for instance was to break rocks in scrap station with hydras, which opened the way for good counters from the toss, and weaken my muta harass.
Things are significantly more difficult with narrow chokes (for instance in Shakuras plateaux), but this is not a problem anymore, as anyone knows.


General remarks.

What makes this strat worth a try?

1. you can adapt to nearly every protoss strat without too much difficulty.
2. good timings
3. efficient transitioning (from hydras to mutas, hitting the protoss in two very different ways (in the front// in the back ; air units vs ground units ).
4. Potentially, many possible variations, depending on your gas timings, number of early zerglings, number of drones rounds before and after the hydra push.
5. No roaches, no corruptors, no death ball to deal with… Isn't that freedom?

Since my remission, I have not seen any colossus void ray ball AT ALL. Not one in around 50 zvps; and I have the initiative in all my games, not just waiting to get killed!

REPLAYS: (I give only my wins, keeping my losses away from public spaces where protosses could be watching us).

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/153225-1v1-protoss-zerg-shakuras-plateau
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/153224-1v1-protoss-zerg-gutterhulk
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/153223-1v1-protoss-zerg-gutterhulk
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/153222-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/153221-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-station
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/153220-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-station
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/153219-1v1-protoss-zerg-gutterhulk
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/153218-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/153217-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-station
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/153216-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-station



EDIT: as the hydra drop version seems to be better, I would recommend watching these replays first.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/154550-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-station
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/154549-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/154548-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-station


Against six gate, a bad - yet won - game.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/157863-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
"Courage consists, however, in agreeing to flee rather than live tranquilly and hypocritically in false refuges." G. Deleuze
indigoawareness
Profile Joined October 2010
Slovakia273 Posts
March 22 2011 22:47 GMT
#2
Good thinking. I'm tired of zerg qq while always trying the same shit.
To sleep, perchance to dream.
Schnullerbacke13
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1199 Posts
March 22 2011 23:29 GMT
#3
good plan. a 15 in base hatch + 14 pool 15/16 gas would let you drone up to ~24 faster and will give your ling play more punch. actually in the 2 replays i watched, there was no real ling harrass. you can get your nat ~24..26 supply even when having in-base hatched.
21 is half the truth
freetgy
Profile Joined November 2010
1720 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-22 23:38:08
March 22 2011 23:36 GMT
#4
zergs thinking to start out of the box nice, would suggest though to decide between a Roach or Hydra Attack (depending of protoss getting robo or not)

make sure your top priority is not kill units but kill sentrys and then stalkers.
whatthefat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States918 Posts
March 22 2011 23:38 GMT
#5
On March 23 2011 08:29 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
good plan. a 15 in base hatch + 14 pool 15/16 gas would let you drone up to ~24 faster and will give your ling play more punch. actually in the 2 replays i watched, there was no real ling harrass. you can get your nat ~24..26 supply even when having in-base hatched.


But in-base hatch is a pretty transparent signal of early aggression, and having to build another hatch that early is going to also significantly slow down the build.
SlayerS_BoxeR: "I always feel sorry towards Greg (Grack?) T_T"
regulator_mk
Profile Joined June 2010
United States127 Posts
March 23 2011 00:09 GMT
#6
Sounds really good. I really like anything involving hydras. Too many zergs are afraid to make hydras because they die to colossi, but if you use them to hit a timing before they their colossi, it can work. Also I think the combination of hydras and lings works out really nicely, because while forcefields can stop pure hydra or pure ling, each requires a different kind of forcefield usage (block off his own army from lings, split apart hydras), and sentries only have limited energy. Compared to roach+hydra where a few forcefields isolating the front roaches does the trick, sentries have a much harder time dealing with hydra+ling.
Harbinger631
Profile Joined September 2010
United States376 Posts
March 23 2011 04:08 GMT
#7
This looks awesome! I hate the way I play, praying to fend off anything the protoss wants to throw at me while I try to get to 4-5 bases to overwhelm him. It's gonna feel great having an actual 3-phase battle plan.

Some noob questions, I'm only plat.

In some of the replays you drop a roach warren. What did you see/didn't you see that caused you to do so? I'm still unsure on what to look for if my opponent is 4-gating.

In your losses, what did you need to do differently/better? What did you fail to do?

Again, thanks for an entertaining post and all the replays!
Macpo
Profile Joined September 2010
453 Posts
March 23 2011 10:13 GMT
#8
Thanks for all these constructive remarks!


1. a 15 in base hatch seems quite difficult to do for this build, as you need four gases to do it... in addition to that, I guess that when in base hatch, you should always wonder, why not fe?

2. about deciding between roaches and hydras: I definitely think hydras is always the best choice, as they deal better against air units + deal better with forcefields. I have tried 11 mn pushes with roaches for a long long time (with speed, burrow, burrow move, +1/+1 upgrades), but it's really too difficult to do, even if you win sometimes. Hydras make things much easier, as they are less affected by forcefields (because of their range). As hydras are a decent counter to almost everything (before colossi come), they also enable you not to rely on scouting (which is most of the time difficult in zvp).

3. about targeting sentries rather than stalkers during the second, main push with hydras: I completely agree! I just wanted to say that not letting stalkers go is quite important too. Too often, when I was pushing, if the toss was retreating in the middle of his base, behind his buildings, I was just thinking: "hey if he leaving, why bothering with his units, just go destroy some key buildings, that will do". But by now I think this is a mistake, because of the next step: the less anti air units, the better the mutas...
By the way, when targeting fire on sentries, I should also say that it is important not to use all your units to target fire. The ideal, I think, is to take lets say 3 or 4 hydras to target one sentry, and another 3 or 4 to target another one. Otherwise, given that there forcefields, you are going to waste your push.

4. thanks to regulator, I didn't think the hydra/zergling synergy in that sense, but I guess that's definitely true...

5. About the first wave (zergling harass), schnullerbacke remarks that I am not always doing it. This is something I already tell in the original post. But I can repeat it: if the guy expands real quickly (at around 6), you don't necessarily need to make zerglings (although you can, as your zerglins will be useful later anyway). Where zerglings are necessary is for later expands. for two reasons. 1. if the guy is late expanding, maybe this is because is preparing for some quick push... so you'd better be prepared. 2. sometimes the expand is delayed because the guy doesn't have the money to defend it. This is particularly true of early phoenixes play, which seem to be quite vulnerable to early zergling pressure. So this is the second reason for 6 mn zerglings : you want to punish protosses that are expanding, while doing some kind of early phoenixes harass.

6. @ Harbinger: Why did I sometimes throw down a roach warren? this is because I feared some kind of late 4 gate push. I think you can afford it.

The signs of a four gate - supposing you didn't actually see the four gates - are in my mind (from the most important to the less important): 1. not taking the second gas (this is actually why I always try to steal a gas to toss: if he doesn't destroy it, I think 4 gate). 2. chronoboosting several times the cybernetic core. 3. seeing stalkers in the front, and not sentries 4. before that, seeing high level of energy in the toss nexus, for later chronoboosting.

If you have all this, you can be pretty damn sure that a 4gate is coming. or if it is not coming, it is fine, because it then means that it is a less efficient expand that is coming (hence the possibility to get a roach warren without suffering too much).

About my losses in ZvP: I can find of three types:

1. losses with build orders are not this one: like four gate pushes or late one base tech pushes (especially recently on maps such as backwater)
with this build
2. bad decision making and bad micro with your hydra push. (like lazily targeting buildings instead of units - something that I did so many times, when the toss retreats his units in the middle of his base).
Also, if the toss manages to throw very good force fields for 30 secs, he has the time to reinforce and destroy your hydra push. But I have the feeling that such situation is due to me doing mistakes (taking the narrow path to his base, wastking seconds in front of his base at the crucial moment etc.)
3.with phoenix pressure, things can be pretty hard to deal with, as if you don't have enough hydras, he will just kill them+ classical annoying harassment stuff if you are not careful (queens and overlords)... The good thing to know is that if he has phoenixes, then he is weak at home for a while.
"Courage consists, however, in agreeing to flee rather than live tranquilly and hypocritically in false refuges." G. Deleuze
MooseyFate
Profile Joined February 2011
United States237 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-23 15:21:53
March 23 2011 15:01 GMT
#9
I've been trying a similar build for the last two weeks because I saw a bunch of post on TL talking about how bad the Hydra was and that Roaches are better. It seems to work well at my level of play (Gold) because most toss just 4-gate or go for the Deathball.
Fast Hyrdas w/ sling support do a decent job at defending the first strat while preventing the second strat from ever getting to critical mass. Most of my losses are due to me screwing up something (forgetting to build spire on time, forgetting hydra range upgrade, or CANCELING MY FREAKIN LAIR upgrade at 80% on accident...)

I'm glad some players with better skills are starting to min/max a good build order for this as I have been very loosey-goosey which causes a lot of silly looking losses.

So I guess I'm saying this works well at Gold/Plat level even if done less that perfectly because it is unexpected and most Toss at this level don't know how to react properly.
Alejandrisha
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States6565 Posts
March 23 2011 15:10 GMT
#10
all the top zergs on na ladder are being super aggressive with lots of lings early on. as toss you can't even risk leaving your base til like 80 food it's too risky. so protoss is shifting to even more turtle style until obs then you can actually see if he has droned/is droning
get rich or die mining
TL+ Member
P00RKID
Profile Joined December 2009
United States424 Posts
March 23 2011 16:31 GMT
#11
On March 24 2011 00:10 Alejandrisha wrote:
all the top zergs on na ladder are being super aggressive with lots of lings early on. as toss you can't even risk leaving your base til like 80 food it's too risky. so protoss is shifting to even more turtle style until obs then you can actually see if he has droned/is droning


Unless you scout with hallucination, notice 4 gasses and low drone / ling counts, then you can pressure. If you don't notice a large group of lings at all, I suggest getting hallucination.

Also all the replays you posted in the op, or at least the 5 or 6 I have watched weren't a normal 3gate sentry expand, at least not without some variation. I feel that a normal turtle protoss with sentry and a FE will fare a lot better than these guys who do fake FE 1 base all ins or 3gate stargate THEN expand... It just felt like you were blind countering a lot of the time as they didn't pressure except with their first push of air units or that one guy who did mass hallucination on zealots, very non standard play.

With a proper 3gate FE, the toss will have enough FF to pick off a large group of your hydra and won't end up losing as much material as the guys who only have 6 or so sentries. So although I like the strategy, the replays I watched kinda felt like they were odd games and not very standard FE builds from protoss.

"Does your butt hurt? 'cause you fell from heaven once the cast was over?" Artosis
Algar
Profile Joined September 2010
United States27 Posts
March 23 2011 17:03 GMT
#12
I really like the sound of this build and it seems to blind counter a lot of the gimmicky stuff that is so popular on NA ladder (especially in platinum league).

One Question...

Is it possible to get a 3rd Queen around 26-30 food or will that impact the timings too much?
Thanks. I like to play.
Darkkal
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States60 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-23 19:18:10
March 23 2011 19:17 GMT
#13
Macro should be a byproduct of your trained ability to use game mechanics well. It shouldn't be a concentration, nor should it be luxury. You need great macro skills, but macro should be subconscious. If you are saying that you should give up production for army value, then you aren't taking into consideration of certain situations. If he ISN'T attacking, there should be no reason to attack (unless of course you can just end the game right there with whatever you have). Zerg really isnt an aggresive race in zvp. If you try to be the aggresor, you are going to fall way behind in economy and the toss player can easily wipe out whatever units you pump out with a smaller army.
P00RKID
Profile Joined December 2009
United States424 Posts
March 23 2011 19:34 GMT
#14
On March 24 2011 04:17 Darkkal wrote:
Macro should be a byproduct of your trained ability to use game mechanics well. It shouldn't be a concentration, nor should it be luxury. You need great macro skills, but macro should be subconscious. If you are saying that you should give up production for army value, then you aren't taking into consideration of certain situations. If he ISN'T attacking, there should be no reason to attack (unless of course you can just end the game right there with whatever you have). Zerg really isnt an aggresive race in zvp. If you try to be the aggresor, you are going to fall way behind in economy and the toss player can easily wipe out whatever units you pump out with a smaller army.


I disagree entirely. There are timings where Z can hit P, and to not go for them simply because you "should" be only playing a macro and responsive strategy is narrow minded.

Protoss can play greedy to the point that it is more economic to apply pressure to them to level the macro lead than it is to try to just plain out macro them without any engagement. If you can trade armies while its more economic for you as the zerg, then you can and probably should do it. Zerg generally has a better time when the engagements are small, rather than when in the late game and there are death balls. Also there is the concept of forcing, and also opening up other timing windows with said forcing.

Of course you can try to just play greedier and get a macro advantage, but the way PvZ works, P can still apply pressure to Z to slow down their macro. That is exactly what the strategy is in this thread, only with the other race.
"Does your butt hurt? 'cause you fell from heaven once the cast was over?" Artosis
Shadrak
Profile Joined August 2010
United States490 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-23 20:28:29
March 23 2011 20:18 GMT
#15
I LOL'd at this:

"b. prepare for fight! you little lazy coward macro zerg!"

Nice post though. Gonna try this out tonight.

<edit>
I'm curious, when you go with this plan and you do end up suspecting 4 gate do you always throw a roach warren down to defend? Have you tried mass ling or ling/bling instead?
Vega62a
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
946 Posts
March 23 2011 21:53 GMT
#16
I'm going to preface this by saying that I'm a random player, and I plan on trying this build sometimes when I spawn as a Z in ZvP. It's a great idea, and I like it way better than playing standard zerg, which feels really unstable at the best of times, and never feels like you can really safely attack. With that being said, I have to offer this criticism:

Maybe I'm being silly, but my feeling about this build is that Protoss aren't used to this hydra/ling timing, so you're able to do them a lot of damage because you catch them by surprise, at a stage where they're used to sitting back and probably about to start building colossi - reliably, to the point where
Since my remission, I have not seen any colossus void ray ball AT ALL. Not one in around 50 zvps
But I think that once it becomes more well-known, protoss will start being able to scout it and potentially hold it without much damage, the same as any other build - if you know it's coming, you can hold it. If you try switching to mutas without doing at least some damage to put you ahead, you're basically dead. 2-3 cannons per line + stalkers can stop basically all muta pressure - although I could see it being a bit hairy for a little while as the mutas come rolling in right after the hydra attack ends - and in the end, when the deathball comes, you're basically down 8-10 corruptors and up 8-10 mutas.

I like the early timing attack though, and I like using mutas as a good way to stay ahead. The problem with PvZ is that even if the Z gets ahead, he can't always stay ahead in the face of a giant deathball, and this is one really great way to prevent that.

Great post!
Content of my posts reflects only my personal opinions, and not those of any employer or subsidiary
Terminator(471)
Profile Joined December 2010
United States243 Posts
March 23 2011 22:10 GMT
#17
Great post! Finally a zerg is thinking outside the box. A question though. If the opponent decides to do some form of 6 gate push after his expansion how would you deal with that? Would the hydra ling be enough to make a large dent in the stalkers and sentries? And if you go the super aggressive path, is it a little bit all in ish? Because it seems like if the protoss puts up cannons and holds off the push, you would be far behind in the drone count.
How I feel when I play the against Protoss deathball: This is the worst day of my life! "Homer: the worst day of your life so far"
freetgy
Profile Joined November 2010
1720 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-23 22:15:44
March 23 2011 22:15 GMT
#18
hydra push is bound to be effective, only Colossus and Storm is cost effective against hydras.
but you should be active with your creep spread, cause the bonus makes Hydras obviously better.
Yogurt
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
United States4258 Posts
March 23 2011 23:16 GMT
#19
I noticed that in the games I watched, the hydra push didn't win outright, but the mutas really cut the throat of the protoss. It's so easy for them to turtle that I really like this transition. I have been trying to work muta into my zvp for a while now, and this seems like a very good opportunity. Excellent post
ok dont not so good something is something ok ok ok gogogo
Danners933
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada76 Posts
March 23 2011 23:30 GMT
#20
It really catches most of the protoss players I play off guard when I try to do some sort of attack into them. For so long us Zergys have had to sit back and just defend constantly. Before the patch even came out I thought about using Infestors more into my play. Something that has been working wonders for me is Infestor/Hydra drops. Most effective mid to late game after an expo has been made. Fungal on workers destroy enough but now they can't run away leaving massive devastation to the worker line. Of course the player will catch on and have appropriate defense against this but if you can hurt the worker lines enough times production will be awful for them which you can then follow up with an attack you find appropriate. For my games this has happened towards a stargating protoss. So worker death plus roach hydra push was win for me
DannersGaming on Youtube/TwitchTv
1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 5h 43m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RuFF_SC2 192
ROOTCatZ 99
StarCraft: Brood War
Leta 883
Icarus 7
LuMiX 4
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm164
League of Legends
JimRising 815
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor158
Other Games
summit1g10580
tarik_tv5640
WinterStarcraft318
ViBE185
ProTech46
SortOf1
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV55
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH301
• Hupsaiya 80
• davetesta62
• practicex 33
• Kozan
• Migwel
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Sammyuel 0
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo1007
• masondota2803
• Stunt385
Other Games
• Scarra3576
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
5h 43m
Clem vs Classic
SHIN vs Cure
FEL
7h 43m
WardiTV European League
7h 43m
BSL: ProLeague
13h 43m
Dewalt vs Bonyth
Replay Cast
1d 19h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
WardiTV European League
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
FEL
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
FEL
6 days
FEL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 2v2 Season 3
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.