EPT[G] An aggressive path in ZvP - Page 8
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Akatsuki1012
Philippines41 Posts
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Macpo
453 Posts
By the way, I am thinking about incorporating queens in my hydra drops, so that they put creep in the protoss base in addition to overlord creep. I didn't play so many games with it so I can't tell, but it seems pretty efficient: even if the toss has some observer, it gives you scout and prevent protoss from rebuilding his base too quick after the drop, plus some marginal advantages like one more tanking unit during the fight... I'll try to post some examples of this later. EDIT: balance discussion removed  we'll keep it to the subject | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
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Akatsuki1012
Philippines41 Posts
 But balance requires all races to to be on par all throughout the match right? Anyways, incorporating queens seems like a bit of a shaky strat to me. I mean it looks like a bit of an all in-ish strat to me. Are you making more queens for the drop or are you using the original queens you've already made for your hatcheries? If it's the first one couldnt you just spend those minerals on lings? And if its the latter who would inject your hatcheries while you're attacking? | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On April 11 2011 00:02 Akatsuki1012 wrote: Haha I see how lucky of you to win 70% mine's the opposite. But balance requires all races to to be on par all throughout the match right? Anyways, incorporating queens seems like a bit of a shaky strat to me. I mean it looks like a bit of an all in-ish strat to me. Are you making more queens for the drop or are you using the original queens you've already made for your hatcheries? If it's the first one couldnt you just spend those minerals on lings? And if its the latter who would inject your hatcheries while you're attacking?Be careful, between your signature and one-liners in your posts you sort of are making balance arguments. I would assume if you include Queens for creep spread/transfuse, you would get a couple extra Queens early in place of Zerglings and allow them to accumulate energy while waiting for Hydra/Drop/Speed tech. Seems like an interesting idea, it would just take some testing. This strategy works wonders. I've been trying to work Hydra drops into my play ever since I saw IdrA demolish Cruncher in the TSL with them on Terminus. Too many Protoss rely on FF and Cannons to protect their FE from early Zerg aggression but Hydras are so good at punishing Gateway/Stargate based armies before Colossi are in play. The problem was always transition. If I didn't kill them outright I seemed to fall further and further behind since losing a Hydra army is so expensive. The Muta follow-up addresses this very well. I usually prefer the macro-based version that allows me to transition into 3-4 bases in the mid-game while the Protoss is crippled, but it's also nice to have the option of going all-in on close positions or similar situations. Thanks again! | ||
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Minerthreat
3 Posts
reasons for the queens 1. they only use minerals and no larva 2. great defense once they get energy 3. you are not using those 150 and sometimes 300 minerals in the muta harass because of the limitation of gas 4. you are going to take more expos, so why wait to make the queens once the expos have finished anyway, those are my two cents. by the way, you have awesome macro, the games i watched you kept your resources sooo low. | ||
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Fishermang
Norway56 Posts
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ABOOMAN
Burma156 Posts
1. Your 3rd is very late 2. When toss adds robo to his gates after exp he will spot your plan and the chances to do dmg reduce dramatically. You can argue that its possible to go for overseer to snipe the observer but 100 gas investment when you are doing extremly gas heavy timing attack is huge. And on top of that, toss can still predict your drop and expect it after losing the observer 3. The whole drop feels pretty weak. Most of the time you will snipe robo or a gateway before his army gets into you. And unless toss macro'd very very bad he will have more than enough units to stomp hydra ling with decent FF's. 4. The timing after the drop leaves you extremly weak. If toss is good, he wont freak out over some mutas flying in his base, usually what happens is he gets a stalker ball and moves out with 1-3 colosus and kills you because u spent incredible amount of gas drop + hydra + muta tech that cant find gateway/colo ball, and on top of that u have mediocre 2 base economy Now the good parts, when you can win : 1. Toss went for a weird 3gate expo into stargate tech build, your drop can do a decent damage 2. Toss has terrible macro and simply doesnt have enough gateway units and cant deal with tour drop efficiently 3. Your drop does "ok" and your mutas arrive, but instead of reacting properly toss turtles and chases your mutas for 5 minutes giving you time to saturate your 3rd and get roachball or anything you want really | ||
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Kruger2
Moldova2 Posts
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Algar
United States27 Posts
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Marsupian
Netherlands455 Posts
So I would transform this into a: 2 Base Hydra Drop The way I tried it was to open no gas double queen and power drones with spines, queens and a few slow lings for defense and then take all 4 gasses at around 30-35 supply. Use the first 100 gas for lair and the second 100 gas for speed. Then when lair finishes get ovie speed and drops and put down a hydra den. When the hydra den finishes start range and mass hydra with all leftover minerals into lings and extra ovies. After 2 rounds of hydras I load everything up and start the drop. From then on I rally speedlings into his base. I usually try to drop close to his ramp so I can catch his army on the ramp and possibly sandwich it with my speedlings that are rallied to his front. Note that this drop is not to necessarily to damage any infrastructure but to kill his army. The reason why dropping helps with this is that you dictate where the battle takes place because he has to attack you or lose his base. This usually results in a stream of units going up his ramp in (sometimes even in single file) so you can get a good concave on his units. If he zones you with forcefield you can lift the hydra's in the back and drop them on his army. The important thing is to not have any hydra's target buildings while the rest is fighting his army. You want to keep them together and move close to his army. With the great range and dps of the hydra's you should have a far higher dps on his army than he has on you (he is moving up a ramp so half his army is out of range and there will probably be some zealots stuck as well). I cut drones from about 40 supply and instead make lings and ovies as I find I stockpiled quite a few minerals but I haven't refined it at all so can't give any optimal supply counts. This build has two major flaws: 1. If they spot your drop his army will be ready to shoot down your overlords. If you have extra ovies you could try to put the empty ones in the front and plow your way through D-day style or you could try to transition out of a failed 2 base hydra drop. I don't know which is messier . To deal with observers you could spread your overlords as normal and keep your army at the front so it isn't as obvious and you could get an overseer but the 100 gas will hurt the drop quite a bit.2. If they have a colossus out and you can't catch it alone you will get fried. I once managed to snipe his first colossus just when it popped out and it was pretty much an auto-win from then on. My final build looks something like this: - 13- hatch - 15- pool - Double queen and 4 lings when pool finishes (Put down 1 spine and more if you scout agression) - Keep droning and make another 2 queens when the first set finishes (If he gets agressive make some lings if not keep droning) - At around 35 supply get all 4 gasses (I'm still playing with this and maybe they could go up a little sooner or maybe 1 first and the rest later to start lair sooner) - With the first 100 gas get lair - With the second 100 gas get lingspeed (Cut drone production and switch to lings and extra overlords, not 100% sure about this timing) - When lair finishes start a hydra den, overlord speed and overlord drop - When the hydra den finishes start range and switch to pure hydra production and lings (+ ovies if needed) if you have extra minerals - After two rounds of hydra's drop his main and rally speedlings to his front. I feel the build can be improved a lot by getting the exact timings for when to get the gasses and when to stop drone production so I'm going to work on that. Also getting an overseer in there if possible would make the build a lot less cheesy and more reliable even if the opponent had an observer. I choose this opener (the spanishiwa no gas opening) because I feel that if you only crank drones first and then switch to 4 gasses right away you get a more efficient economy with loads of minerals early to get extra drones and more gas later when getting the tech and hydra's. I also like the spinecrawler/queen defense quite a bit. If the 13 hatch gets blocked you can still go 14 gas 14 pool. Edit: Thinking about it an earlier gas just to get the 100 for a faster lair could really help getting there before the colossus pops so the no gas opening might not be so good after all. The advantages of the spanishiwa opening are the extra queens which you could actually just drop with your hydra's like suggested above and with the spinecrawlers (and fast lair) some protosses might assume mass muta in which case they might do a warpgate all in to kill you before you can get enough muta's in which case you can destroy him with hydra's for an easy win. | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
First I have to say that I am only some kind of average limited Master player (can't exactly remember, but I was around 3400 at the end of season 1, something like that). I would love seeing better zerg players who like aggressive play testing and improving the strat. Julyzerg has done builds that have the same kind of aggressive taste ; yet some of his stuff was different (and it was a kind of improvised one shot strategy apparently), so I would just like to make things a bit more systematic and in my own way. @Abooman: I'll try to answer your four remarks. Generally speaking, I think you are right on where difficulties are; but I think you slightly overestimate them. 1. Your first remark is about having a late third. I think this really depends on the variation you choose. If you want to go a bit more macro (with 40-45 drones), you basically take your third when hydra dropping (around 11mn mark). I have to say my mechanics are far from perfect, so this is the kind of things I easily forget, but with proper macro, you can definitely take a third at that point (+ a macro hatch, as muta/ling composition for the third wave is kind of larva intensive). Is that late? well... of course, the overall plan is aggressive, and this implies to take risks, to be low on drones... I personnally like to play with sharp, risky strategies... but it's not necessarily that bad for macro. You can make a round or two of drones while hydra dropping, which will give you more than saturation on two bases... 2. about observers: most of the time, I will not load the hydra and lings in my base: first to avoid observers, second to speed up things a bit ( if you drop tech is late for whatever reason, when you have it and load at the middle of the map, you only have a small distance left before the attack, and not the whole map to cross), . For instance, in xel naga caverns, I like to load my units at the watch tower. of course, it's not the perfect solution, as the toss can still decide to attach his observer to your units... about adding the overseer it's all about your gas timing. If you have your gas timing a bit earlier, you can probably add an extra observer (often, the limitating resource is not gas but mineral). 3. On the drop itself, I would refer to what Marsupian says: you have to drop correctly, and understand what the goal is (no offense here! just to make things clear ). The main idea is that the drop is useful mainly to have your units correctly set up. I originally did a ground push with hydras, but sometimes forcefields just completely stop you, or make half of your army worthless. that's why I came to the conclusion that drop is definitely worth it: you have a smaller army, but it's 100% efficient. the key points for the drop are in my opinion: - the objective is to kill units (sentries, then stalkers) more than buildings: honestly I feel that if you trade armies, the game is yours. -drop at the choke, do not kill the buildings at the choke, to keep the choke narrow, make a nice concave. - send a couple of zerglings in the mineral line. that's really free damage, it's easy to do, and definitely worth it. - don't hesitate to send your last units back in the overlord, it'll be interesting for multi pronged attacks later. 4. there is a window for a direct counter attack after the drop, if the toss has units left. But two remarks here: 1. toss may have no units left, or not enough to feel that he can push. 2. he may have enough units, but feel he wants to defend. one of these two is often the case in my experience. Also, one important thing at that time is that toss shouldn't know what I am doing, and therefore it is not obvious that he wants to push... (especially if you put creep tumors in his base, I will have to bring his observer back). Moreover, I think you should not underestimate muta ling composition vs stalker colo. Given that his ball is not that big, it can be pretty efficient in my opinion. depending on the situation, you may want to go kill stalkers first (which maybe somewhat counter-intuitive). @Marsupian: 1. I am really interested in the idea of incorporating Spanishiwa's opening. Of course the question is: will you have time to make the drop at the 11 mn mark? I would definitely love replays, but I 'll try it. But if you go lair tech first, and take four gas pretty early, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible.Also the possibility of incorporating queens in the drop is another interesting thing! 2. about gas timing, I have to say that it's kind of hard to have a precise timing, as it depends on the toss timings: I usually send three guys back to gas when I see the toss expand, plus throw down another gas. When lair is finished (I start lair when I see the expand), I throw down the two other gases. (I usually pump drones until lair is finished, but if you want to be greedy I think you can definitely make a round or two more drones when the situation fits). and I feel I am doing fine. But if we switch to spanishiwa opening style, then things maybe a bit different, you may want to have a more precise timing for gas (i.e. absolute timing, not relative to what your opponent is doing). 3. about the observer problem, same as abooman: I chose to load units on the way to his base. I agree that's not perfect, but most of the time, it'll do... One thing to keep in mind is that an observer means a robotic bay, and this make things easier for the drop (in my opinion) than a six gate... 4. I am pretty sad that you give up the muta part, which is in my opinion an efficient transition. Maybe a rule of thumb would be: if 3 gate robo, then hydra drop followed by mutas (against colossi, it fits great); but if 6 gate, then just pump hydras and expand. (I would say though, that six gate generally leads to later colossi, so I would still switch to mutas at some point; just delay the overall strat: bigger hydra drop at around 12:30 13 mn; followed by mutas. Thanks again for remarks, and send replays ! | ||
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BuLLeTPr00f
Lebanon32 Posts
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SDream
Brazil896 Posts
I removed the mutas, put a nydus worm and made it more all-insh. This was my first try with that variation: maybe I can try to squeeze a +1 atack (range) to make it even better against this kind of 2 base protoss play. I am in platinum though, so it might take some time for me to have a build solid enough for players like you, but I really like this use of Nydus :D Replay here: http://sc2shr.com/Ww (the download starts as you click, at least in my browser, it's like a tinypic site) | ||
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Superpower
Australia212 Posts
love the idea im a noob in bronze but about gold lvl of play and im tired of 1 match of being promoted after a 8 or 9 win streak only to vs a high silver who "just found out" wtf a death ball is and quickly roflstomps me. Is it possible to switch the hydras 2 possibly baneling carpet bombs on themineral lines? possibly an idea but im just a nubby bronze -.- | ||
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ChefStarCraft
Canada350 Posts
Instead of the spire I prefer to get a Nydas behind my drop. It allows for even more prong attacks, as well as faster reinforcements and retreats. | ||
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StuBob
United States373 Posts
Is this build still viable? I have been looking for an agressive ZvP build, I was wondering if anyone had any success with this one lately? It seems good, but I'm not so sure it works that well, any pointers? | ||
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Oakwarrior
Estonia31 Posts
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Macpo
453 Posts
1. . this was written some time ago, essentially to deal with 3 gate robo, when it was the main bo for protoss So I wouldn't recommend it against FFE, although i made a second version of the strat, which would suit it better. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=218988 2. When I first discovered it (trying hydra drops, and then randomly making a spire) it happened to be really efficient at my level (around high diamond low master). I have had like a 65/70% win rate for a couple of months in z v p. So, I have been playing it a lot, now changed a bit cause I was tired of it but overall: it's kind of exposed to early pressure, especially mass blink stalker. against six gate, you can defend, but putting pressure back is kind of hard... in some situations you have to transition out of it (like zealot archon). At the same time, with the element of surprise, it also often works pretty well, even against relatively high master players in certain configurations. By now I use it here and there to remember the good old days, it's really efficient when you scout stargate openings (if you go like 4 gas at 40, and lair around 6:30, you can adapt and go for it, and it is really efficient); it can do the work in bo3, especially if you got some close air position; also it's worth a try when you are playing against someone better than you, cause it gives you a chance where otherwise you wouldn't have. So to conclude, I don't know if it gives you a winning percentage over 50, especially as protoss improved harass defense. I would be tempted to say, yes up to low master (as you put a lot of pressure), then probably it goes down. Then, it's probably not the best way to go as a main strat today, as it has a very specific path, quite low macro, etc. (although it teaches timings pretty well); True, it is somewhat specific and gimmicky (let's make it clear: it's not a six pool rush or a seven roach push!),but quite funny to play, if you like leading the game, and being the one with the initiative; and enjoy risky tense situations, with quite a lot of multitasking, base trade, etc.. and who knows, maybe someone will adapt it and make it better | ||
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