EPT[G] An aggressive path in ZvP - Page 6
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DJPingPong
United States20 Posts
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Macpo
453 Posts
Remark that even when the drop "fails", in the sense that he kills my units, I completely destroys one mineral line (around 20 probes), which makes it worth it. One thing I didn't try yet, is to put my army back when toss army is apparently stronger and that I have done satisfying damage in the mineral line... Also, the interest of the replay is that I played badly in many aspects, and that there is a lot to improve still! : lost zerglings on the way, quite uselessly; when mutas were out, I was sitting on about 1.5K minerals for a while, and doing nothing with it, while mutas were harassing, i could have combined it with zerglings drops, etc. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/157863-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns Two extra rules of thumb: - I suggest as a rule of thumb that against a six gate (or any gateway heavy style), you can delay the hydra drop by 1 mn 30 or 2 mn, and drop with a bigger army, and you will be doing fine. -as colossi will come later. So instead of dropping at 11, you can target the 13th mn mark. - Do the 1st wave (zerglings), only if he hasn't put his nexus down yet. By that I mean: it's probably a bad idea to start pumping zerglings when you see the expand, because then it's too late. If this is the case (early expand), just forget zerglings, and do drones. You should do zerglings only when the expand is coming late; the idea is: he has not expanded yet, but you expect him to expand, so you do a wave of zerglings or two, (basically I would recommend doing units until you actually see the expand), and you can use it when he actually expands (if he doesn't, you will use it for your defense anyway...) The interest of the 1st wave yet, is to punish greedy toss who goes air harass + 3 gate expands. In that case, it's really useful (basically makes you win the game). here is an example: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/157871-1v1-protoss-zerg-backwater-gulch | ||
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Sami`
89 Posts
The biggest advantage to going hydra is that you can deal with phoenix harass very easily but I think its more advantageous to struggle a little with phoenix harass and have the Protoss spend his gas on something other than colossus, if you make hydra chances are he will abandon phoenix production if he is making them and end up with a nasty deathball much quicker. This of course assumes if he goes phoenix at all but if he doesn't its just another reason why roach is the better choice. | ||
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coddan
Estonia890 Posts
On April 02 2011 21:49 Sami` wrote: I disagree with going for hydra over roach, yeah there are some advantages to hydra but the most important thing to eventually beating the Protoss is to have the gas to get a critical mass of muta - going roach will help you do that better. The biggest advantage to going hydra is that you can deal with phoenix harass very easily but I think its more advantageous to struggle a little with phoenix harass and have the Protoss spend his gas on something other than colossus, if you make hydra chances are he will abandon phoenix production if he is making them and end up with a nasty deathball much quicker. This of course assumes if he goes phoenix at all but if he doesn't its just another reason why roach is the better choice. Well, did you watch the replays? The spire finishes pretty much exactly when the drop is over and by then he has between 12-1500 minerals + gas. He makes 15 mutas in one round. Making roaches would make the drop a lot weaker since they would get screwed by forcefields. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
One question though: in one of my games, just for kicks, rather than going robo (I even skipped the observer) I went for a fast twilight council, then blink+hallucination. I made a few sentries and then the rest I dumped into Zealots. I hallucinated a bunch of zealots, then sent my sentries away to stock energy/help me deal with the muta followup if it came. Hallucinated chargelots + lots of real chargelots deal with the hydra/ling comp surprisingly easily. They also rendered the drop tech pretty meaningless (since I wasn't making forcefields or static defense anyway), and because I knew the Zerg build I knew he wouldn't have overseers to see through hallucination, or burrow to abuse my lack of observer. I was able to fend off the push with these forces alone, which let me use my next warp cycle on stalkers which I paired with the sentries to fend off the muta followup, at which point I went and killed my opponent. Now, obviously this was a very specific strategy, predicated on knowing that: my opponent would not be abusing burrow and my opponent would not have overseers and my opponent's primary attack wouldn't be coming until after both of my tech upgrades were done researching (twilight council takes 50 seconds, charge takes 140, hallucination 80 seconds, but hallucination can be started soon after you finish the core and go simultaneously while you research charge, so you can have both upgrades done 190 seconds after you start the council. in contrast, the robo tech takes 65 seconds for the facility, 65 for the bay, 75 for the colossus, which is 205 seconds without thermal lance. obviously this doesn't factor in CB, but you can actually use it on both tech upgrades, whereas you can't apply CB to the robo tech until you start making units or researching upgrades..in other words, if you skip robo completely you can get a sizable zealot force, a few sentries and charge + hallucinate around 9:30 or so, which at least in my case was time to stop the hydra push) But still, given this, it did seem like when I knew what to expect this was a damn effective counter. Any thoughts? | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
A few comments though: 1. I think it's pretty easy to add an extra overseer in the build. I have been thinking about it myself, (in the case of early robo builds) to avoid the drop to be detected. 2. About the build you're suggesting as an answer for the protoss, I think it's important to make sure it can also deal with other zerg strats. In the same sense that a zerg has to produce something dealing correctly with both one base (4gate and later pushes) and two base plays (3gate and fe); protoss has to do something that can deal correctly with both this strat and other main zerg strats of the moment (quick third, burrow roach play, etc.). Otherwise, imho, you just fix a problem to create another one  | ||
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eliquo
Germany3 Posts
today i got a protoss in a ladder session and i tried this strategy out the first time and i rly have to say that after playing it, it feels pretty damn nice even though my opponent made a few mistakes ofc, like walling himself out for a few sec while hes getting dropped, but u can see that anyway in the replay http://www.file-upload.net/download-3333816/Xel--Naga-Caverns--7-.SC2Replay.html u can tell me what u think - i know the timings weren't perfect and ive missmicroed here and there but as ive mentioned, it was the first time i tried that out | ||
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SC2TheDroid
United States54 Posts
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Darkn3ss
United States717 Posts
I mean I'm bad (Master), I don't spam early and I get ~130 on average... there's just soooo much stuff to do -.- | ||
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DanLegend
United States52 Posts
I also find that I can safely end the game with a timing push if they 3gate expand. or at least take out their expansion which leads to them "gg"ing and rage quiting much like the master protoss in my replay above. | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
I am very open to constructive critiques, but I feel kind of sad when I hear this kind of remarks. 1. because APM is absolutely not the only criteria of success, and it doesn't mean the strategy itself doesn't work (of course, other people would do it better than I do; the only thing I did was to think about it in the first place). I would even add that it's a positive fact that you don't need high APM to do the strat. 2. because the dark force is strong here. What do you intend to do wh'en you are saying "I am bad (Master)"? Beyond an appearance of modesty, I think you actually mean I am better than all of you ("stupid ignorant lower players"). As a Master player, when you are saying that you are bad, you are actually saying others: "you are worse than me, i.e. very bad". I would go even further: you claim to be bad only to enjoy the fact that you are better than others. You sacrifice a bit of yourself, you get a big dirty reward. By chance, I am a Master player too, so I don't take it personnally; but I still find this kind of remarks very arrogant and unpleasant. Instead, why don't you just go try the build, and bring feedback ? Otherwise, i am glad to see that platinum guys can kick Master asses when playing aggressive . | ||
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Kruger2
Moldova2 Posts
1. u need a spore or an overseer. In my opinion u will need evo anyway (it is quite cheap). gas u ratherspend on ur hydra. this rule for me came out becouse of my succesful drops and then just loosing to 3-4 DT`s. 2. when u start ur lair, if i see a sentry heavy build+ nexus i imidiatly throw 4 gases (abot 6-7min) and drone hard untill full saturation for main and expo. First goes range atack, then 3-4 hydra to deny any air agression, then sacks, and when they r allmoust done speed. at 10.30-11 with 10-15 hydras i go for drop. at this point my resources and specialy gas r low. But durring the battle i get 1,5k mines, with no gas (spended on muta) so when mooving to atack i get a macro hatch at my base+third. (If i go by ground i get a full pare of lings to help hydra`s when they r allmoust there.) So, i got +2 hatchery`s, but some time protoss just goes with 2 colosus and just kill`s me, becouse i spent so much on muta. that happen`s after a while after harass. So i get a tonn of roaches( forgot to mentione, that i make a roach waren before lair, to defend any 6 gate in time =) )+3-4-5 corruptors and just kill protoses army. I`m a little hard to understand, so i`ll make a resume =) The main changes in my build r: 1. Roach waren before lair to have a chance to make roaches if neeede ASAP 2. Anti DT`s defens (overseer, or a spore) to defend this damn cheese 3. Make lings in the last second if atacking by ground, so u want waste time wating for hydra to get thee. 4. Make a third+ macro hatch while going for drop\atack 5. Make a ton of roaches after muta, to be able to defend ur base if protos decides to trade bases. There will be realy lot`s of roaches, couse u don`t need to much gase for them and ur mineral count is realy huge since u v satturated ur main and expo with drones. And u might to scwis some corruptors to kill the protos right there. Thank`s for the buid and timing`s. Grate strat. With early waren i defended most of the pushes even 6 gate. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On April 04 2011 09:26 Darkn3ss wrote: What league are you in? No offense, but under 100 apm in every game, especially for a zerg player, doesn't really convince me... "/ I mean I'm bad (Master), I don't spam early and I get ~130 on average... there's just soooo much stuff to do -.- APM is not a factor i seen tons of master players even Zergs with APM averages of 50. Seriously thers not much to do. Click Click Click I just spawned larva. 3 Clicks. Click Click DDDDDDD i just made Drones. Theirs this fake aura that zergs have so much to do that makes their APM radically high, thats really not the case.+ Show Spoiler + Don't take this as an insult, i'm just saying you dont need +100apm to play a Masters Zerg | ||
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spacebarbarian
United States70 Posts
Not getting drop means you save gas for 4 extra hydras, and the creep highway does make it easier to reinforce if you feel that you can win it right away. you guys think thats worth it ? | ||
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magha
Netherlands427 Posts
On April 04 2011 23:15 spacebarbarian wrote: I think Idra did something very similar to this style against Huk @MLG dallas (the replays are up on MLG's site but I am not sure which of their 6 games this was in, will try to find out later unless someone beats me to it). Idra followed up some zergling harass with hydras, but he only gets overlord speed and creates a quick creep highway to Huk's natural. I don't remember seeing a spire go up and I think huk GGd before the hydra wave was done. Not getting drop means you save gas for 4 extra hydras, and the creep highway does make it easier to reinforce if you feel that you can win it right away. you guys think thats worth it ? Huk gg'd when the spine crawlers planted right in front of his base. It was Idras classic hydra/spine push and is unrelated to this topic. | ||
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Sporadic44
United States533 Posts
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
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pAnatiC
Germany123 Posts
ZvP is by far my best Matchup, even be4 this guide was written 1 Question: What do you think about also dropping 2-3 drones to put spinecrawlers in the enemy base? When he has got no coloss, then it might be not so bad? | ||
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ChefStarCraft
Canada350 Posts
You will be able to retreat, and reinforce with stronger fighting units. Not to mention able to nydas in more then one place. The overlord drop allows you to place the nydas. Pressure early game with roach ling, then tech drops and hydras. Build more roaches if there are allot of zealots, but for the most part just hydra. Lings are the mineral sinker. Don't forget to drop that overlord creep ! I've had allot of success with this vs forge expands. If they don't forge expand or have enough sentries my roach speedling pressure will put them pretty behind or kill them in close position. | ||
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Darkn3ss
United States717 Posts
On April 04 2011 21:21 Macpo wrote: @ Darkn3ss I am very open to constructive critiques, but I feel kind of sad when I hear this kind of remarks. 1. because APM is absolutely not the only criteria of success, and it doesn't mean the strategy itself doesn't work (of course, other people would do it better than I do; the only thing I did was to think about it in the first place). I would even add that it's a positive fact that you don't need high APM to do the strat. 2. because the dark force is strong here. What do you intend to do wh'en you are saying "I am bad (Master)"? Beyond an appearance of modesty, I think you actually mean I am better than all of you ("stupid ignorant lower players"). As a Master player, when you are saying that you are bad, you are actually saying others: "you are worse than me, i.e. very bad". I would go even further: you claim to be bad only to enjoy the fact that you are better than others. You sacrifice a bit of yourself, you get a big dirty reward. By chance, I am a Master player too, so I don't take it personnally; but I still find this kind of remarks very arrogant and unpleasant. Instead, why don't you just go try the build, and bring feedback ? Otherwise, i am glad to see that platinum guys can kick Master asses when playing aggressive . Sorry if I came off as an arrogant prick! xP I've been browsing forums for a while and you never know who posts what.... this could have been a silver level player posting some nonsense for all I know (no offense). It's always good to give some sort of background so people that read your post know exactly what they're dealing with. As far as feedback - I'll definitely try this out and let you know how this goes. I've been messing around with a pressure build myself so maybe we can take the pros/cons of both and put them into something a lot better. We'll see ^^ | ||
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