An aggressive path in ZvP 2.0

Macpo

453 Posts

May 03 2011 19:18 GMT

An aggressive path in ZvP 2.0 (how I stopped seeing pink toss deathballs in my dreams...)

[image loading]

This is about a 2base hydra drop into 4 base mass muta, in ZvP. Here mutas attacking just after the initial hydra drop.

I recently posted a ZvP strat called "an aggressive path in ZvP", which presents some kind of hydra/muta play in ZvP in order to avoid the usual roach/corruptors/expand usual ZvPs.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=203996

I had some comments on it, some of them very fruitful, sometimes critical (in the good sense); which helped me to refine the build, and make it more solid. Some critiques were a bit more radical; and even though I denied it strongly at the time

, I felt that somehow they were right. There were some kind of inherent limits to the build that made it weak to a variety of things.

So, I was about to give up the whole thing, when some guy suggested me to use Spanishiwa's opening to strengthen my stuff. After some work of adaptation, I think I have come up with quite convincing results, which I would like to share. To clarify things and avoid useless remarks, I am an average master who wins against high masters in ZvP (and lose all his ZvT, but that's another story). I don't aim at teaching super pros how to play sc2; just want to suggest a strat with which I have had some success. I have never tested the build against grand masters.

To sum up, the general architecture is still the same as in my "aggressive path" 1.0 , i.e. hydra drop planed for the 11/12 mn mark, followed by muta harass; still no roach, no corruptor; but this version is way stronger economically. This modifies quite a lot the build, which is now a two base hydra drop into 4 base mass muta. New aspects emerge (like queen drops, massive spine defense and double expand during the hydra drop); some disappear (early zergling pressure). Overall, I would still label it an aggressive build, as from the 11 mn mark you shouldn't stop attacking. It has become a bit more APM intensive, due to more expands, but I am no high APM guy, and still make it work reasonably.

Let's now get into the details.

1.Main variation. (vs 3 gate exp into colossi).

1. 1 A new hope: Spanishiwa: The Ice Fisher is on fire!

1.1.1 First steps
+ Show Spoiler +

So for the first steps of the build, I follow Spanishiwa's stuff. Yet, I made some modification as I rather go 11 pool 18 hatch. I have been doing some kind of 16 hatch 15 pool strat. and when it works, it's really nice. But at the same time, you have too much pylon block, cannon rush and so on. If you feel comfortable with 16 hatch, go for it, but I would rather recommend a 11 pool 18 hatch, like this.

[image loading]

Eleven pool into 18 hatch on Shakuras. Zerglings just killed the probe. Protoss is going to be in the dark for a while.

-11 pool (with extractor trick)

-@100% pool 2 zerglings and queen.

use the two zerglings to chase the probe away. and throw down a hatch just thereafter (timing should be fine). One very good thing is that from there the protoss will be in the dark, until the moment he pushes or has an observer. Some people may also overreact to 11 pool, which is also a good thing. After, go scout with the zerglings. If you see any pylon around, make 4 more zerglings immediately, if necessary with extractor trick.

-@ 100% queen, make another queen.
-@50% hatch, make a spine in your main (you will transfer it to your natural when it pops up).

@100% hatch, make a queen in your natural.

From here, you come back to Spanishiwa's stuff. Put down spines, according to what you have scouted so far (at least 2 more, against 3 gate expand). For 4 gate defense, go see his stuff. I like having my gases a bit before what he suggests. So rather than "at 40 make four gases", I would say "between 36 and 40", make four gases. But that's a small difference...
Also:
- Make queens. Don't hesitate to have 5 or 6, they will be used during the drop; it makes things easier against air harass, etc.
- Remember that creep spreading is pretty useless in this build, beyond the initial creep tumor from your main to your natural. maybe saving energy for the drop and/or defense is more interesting…

@100 gas, go lair.

1.1.2 From lair to drop.
+ Show Spoiler +

When you started lair, go on with drones production, you can add a fourth, or fifth spine depending on what you scout. If you don't scout anything, make a fourth spine. Don't hesitate to oversaturate a bit your mineral line with drones, as you will put down spines later anyway.

Also, block the bottom of your ramp with two queens. That's a safety against ultra fast DT: if you don't have overseer, you can still block DTs at your ramp with transfusing queens, until overseer eventually pops up. I advise not to block the top or the middle of your ramp, as a force field would lock your two queens in your main.

then, @100 extra gas, go for speedling (classical spanishiwa, but you can do it later! the only thing is to have it ready for the tenth minut mark).

@ 100% lair, put down the hydra den, overlord tech (the tech to carry stuff first as it's longer), and stop making drones. make overlords to have around 100/110 food, and keep all the rest of your money.

At 100% lair, also get an overseer. This is mainly for defensive purposes (although you may want to add it to the drop later): scouting observers, and countering DTs (for details about that, go to part 2.)

@100% hydra den, get hydra range. produce hydras, and with leftover minerals, make queens and/or zerglings. for the drop, you should have around 15 hydras (it can be 12, it may be 18…), around 4 queens, (maybe 3 maybe 5 or 6), and some zerglings (between 8 and 20 I guess). I can't give precise figures, as this will depend on your mineral / gas ratio, i.e. your gas exact timings, your number of spines, etc. Overall I guess you should have around 7 or 8 full overlords.

1.1.3 Warming up for the drop.
+ Show Spoiler +

Generally, you will be waiting for the overlord tech. While waiting for it and pumping units, last things to do before the drop:

- make overseer circles around your base to catch any observer. remember, if you get an observer, that means he is 99% sure going for colossus, so it should be fine, but don't drop too late. In some variations, the timing is a bit less important, but when colossi are coming, you should not be messing things up.
- gather all units and make control groups. It is very useful to make three control groups cause it'll make things much easier to micro during the drop. one for hydras, one for queens, one for zerglings. Remember that drops are usually quite messy, you don't see units well because of overlords, and it's hectic to target fire, send a small group on the probes, and transfuse at the same time, while macroing, expanding, etc.
- You may want to include all your queens in the drop, while making sure some are being produced when you leave, so that you are not completely larva broken for mutas.
- make sure your overlords spread creep.
- When you send your loaded overlords, avoid watch towers or make sure you have them. It happened to me to be scouted like that on shakuras, and it's really stupid.
- If toss seems to push with gateway units when you are on your way, I would recommend to not retreat, as it will waste your timing completely. Pray, take emergency measures, make some additional hydras. In the worst case, you should be trading bases.

1.2 The Swarm strikes back (with Hydras).
+ Show Spoiler +

1.2.1 The to-do list when hydras are on the way.
all these things are pretty crucial, don't forget them!
you should have a lot of mineral. So:

- make your spire.
- expand. Generally, I double expand. i.e. I select six drones, and build 2 hatchs and 4 gases.
-spines: add 3 or 4 spines in your main. (so that you have between 7 and 10).
-make sure you have queens injecting.
-if so, you can make a round of drones. (just make sure to have enough larvae for 10/15 mutas.)
(I don't claim this part to be very original, just summing up things to have in mind when doing a hydra queen drop.)

1.2.2 How to make an hydra drop.
A good hydra drop may well win you the game. But it also helps to buy time, and this is absolutely crucial. This is why a bad hydra drop won't completely lose you the game, if it keeps the toss for a while on a defensive position. you may not kill all his units, not destroy any key building. You'll be doing fine if you don't get completely smashed: as you will get time to make your expands running and protect them.

how to drop: I would recommend a simple D left click from far, when you start moving your loaded overlords. so that the overlords naturally spread. Overall, I think it's better than a trendy drop while moving, which will make you gain one sec maximum and exposes you to utter failure (not dropping, dropping half of your units, that kind of stuff). But if you feel completely confident with this and want to have higher APM…

Where to drop? I am still wondering about this.
[image loading]

A drop on the main nexus, followed by some creep tumor block (the zerg pylon block!).

In the beginning, I was dropping close to the choke. The interest is that you can catch toss units in a narrow path, with ideally a nice concave. yet, sometimes your hydra random fire gateways instead of fighting and it's really frustrating + if one colossus is already here, it will use the cliff. At the same time, if you drop at the choke and send zerglings in the mineral line, it works a bit as a double attack, as the toss has to pay attention to two things at once.
I have been trying to drop on the mineral line in the main, and feel it's a bit more efficient, as you can kill the nexus pretty quickly, and with some creep tumors delay its construction for a while (for ever if he doesn't have robo). Yet, if his army is a but superior to yours, there is a risk that you get raped, which doesn't happen that much with the chock drop.
In addition to this, the choice for the drop location will depend on the access you have to the position. In some cases, it's easier to drop on the main mineral line (Shakuras), in others, you will more easily drop on the choke(xel naga caverns).
What to do when dropping? - put creep with overlords. - good hydra positioning and targeting. - queen transfuse and creep tumors. - around 6-8 zerglings on probes - overseer block (optional - I don't do it much, as it potentially weakens your defense).

A bad hydra drop looks like that (you can admire my very personal style):

A good hydra drop looks like this:
1.drop at the choke. make sure units fire precise target (it’s the main reason for a failed drop. It's essential to have some key building to target, and not only random gateways. (cybernetic core is particularly interesting, as mutas are coming.
[image loading]

2. The first seconds may be used to destroy the key building; but as soon as units are coming, make sure to have a good concave. It's better when queens tank damage in the front. Transfuse as much as you can, you may gain something like 5 seconds free from real damage to your army, which is huge. Tumors are to scout, provoke observers prevent buildings on the area, and fun
[image loading]

3.Retreat when nothing can be done anymore! the rests of your hydra drop (if any) will be useful for multi pronged attacks later. don't try to escape when you can't though.
[image loading]

1.2.3 Backing or not backing.
Why it's not a big deal NOT to drop? or slightly failing a drop?
As I said, an important aspect of the drop is that it buys you time. So even though you fail a bit your drop, even though he is expecting you and therefore you can't unload, you may well be fine. Just try to keep stuff in your overlords, so that you maintain the threat (and prevent him from moving). As Nimzovitch says, the threat is stronger than the execution. This is also why I would strongly recommend backing in the overlords if you feel he has a bigger army (I have to admit I sometimes fail to do that). That'll make him stay in his base while your mutas are coming.

1.3 The return of the Jedi. (or why our dear old Mutas still rock in zvp).

1.3.1 The Muta. (not mutas, or some mutas, but The Muta)
+ Show Spoiler +

When you leave your base with hydras for the second wave, you should build a spire. When the spire is finished, just make as much mutas as you can. Make sure you have enough larva for that (i.e. not forgetting all your injects).
Upgrading mutas is of course a good idea, after your made your first wave. I still don't know which is better, attack or defense, I guess that as you are harassing, you are not suppose to engage, and therefore defense is a bit useless. (but of course this is true only in the ideal world).
don't hesitate to make several attacks at once, this is so efficient! you can do: zergling drops, multiple muta groups and rests of hydra drops. If your opponent doesn't split his army, you can harass forever. If he does split his army in small groups; gather your mutas and kill one of his smaller groups.

[image loading]

42 mutas on a bunch of gateway units.

1.3.2 Structure of late game: mutas, macro and spines
+ Show Spoiler +

Don't forget to send drones in your gases, when your two expands finish.

You should be doing three crucial things(beyond obvious stuff like injects): make mutas, possibly some zerglings for drops - make spines - make drones. The difficulty is to find the equilibrium of these three things. Now this is obvious but if you fail there is a risk : to be broken in mineral or larvae when planning to produce a new wave of mutas; to run out of drones, because you made too many spines; or to lack spines when you are under attack.

One new aspect of "an aggressive path" 2.0 is spines: a few remarks about mass spines. First, I recommend that you really make mass spines; by that I mean as much as you can: I guess figures would be around 6 or 7 in your natural when you leave for the hydra drop; 5 more in your natural and 5 more in your third when you go for the first muta harass, and so on (I guess it can go up to 30 or more sometimes). Second, the interest of spines, is that it doesn't take food.

Food counts are around equal; but you have numerous spines.
[image loading]

1.3.3 Remarks.
+ Show Spoiler +

At some point, the protoss will try to push with all he has. Sometimes it's when he feels the game is being lost; sometimes he is just trying to put some pressure. In this case, don't hesitate to trade bases. You may lose if you absolutely want to avoid base trades. You have four, and he very likely has 2 or 3 max so it will be fine (and you can bring your mutas back pretty quickly, if absolutely necessary).
[image loading]

A protoss counter. You'll often have to trade bases, but that's fine!
Also at some point, (when you have spines on your 3rd and 4th), drop a evo chamber and some spore crawlers, just in case he goes for late DTs.

2. Dealing with other protoss builds: variations on the build.
+ Show Spoiler +

One interesting aspect of the build is that it works against almost all protoss strategies whatsoever. It's not a tree like "if this, then that", where you switch to something completely different. You only have to make minor adjustments against most builds, but you don't have to change the overall plan.

2.1Forge fast expand.

Be careful about cheese. put spines later. Be ready for air harass. that's it...

2.2 Four gate push.

Scout it in time and put down spines. To be honest, I still have hard time identifying a four gate push correctly, as I switched to Spanishiwa's stuff recently. and this is where I lose most of my ZvP still. when you hold it off, just do the usual stuff; absolute timings will not be respected, but if you have followed correctly the relative timings (when this, then that) it should be fine)

2.3 One base tech push with ground. (void ray/colossi/immortal)

with spines and queens, I guess it should be fine… if you see that nothing happens for too long (past 6:30 7:00 in the game) and that he is still on one base, then just make some extra defense. Plus make sure to have two queens blocking your ramp, as it may well be DTs.

2.4 Other pressure builds (DT and two bases air pressure):

The essential tool is queen. Against air of course, but against DT also, to block the ramp, while getting an overseer. Against DT: You should always block your ramp with two queens. I recommend to block it down the ramp, as otherwise force fields may block your queens on the high ground in case of push.

2.5 6 gate.

The hints for a 6 gate strat are :gateways in front of his natural, no observer killed, large amounts of gateway units, a will to pressure(especially at around 10 mn mark). in the case of six gate, you can definitely delay the drop by one minut, one minut and a half.

3. Others:
+ Show Spoiler +

3.1 Maps pros and cons:

the longer the distance and the shorter the air distance, the better.

3.2 Where do I lose?

- early cannon cheese. I hope to have fixed that with my switch from 16hatch 15 pool to 11 pool 18 hatch.
- misscouted 4 gate: Sometimes you just miss it, and feel reluctant to sacrifice and overlord for nothing…
- completely failed hydra drop: as I explained early: do not let your hydra zergling random firing on gateways or stuff like that!
have a look at replays

3.3 Replays :

On these replays, you won't always see what I said, as I progressively establish the rules I follow by now. especially, most of the replays are 16hatch 15 pool. Some are 11 pool 18 hatch though… past the first 5 minuts, it doesn't change much.

my favorite: an epic battle that lasts for 37 mn and end up with knives.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/171507-1v1-protoss-zerg-shakuras-plateau

Victories
+ Show Spoiler +

Defeats:
+ Show Spoiler +

- against 4 gate
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/171502-1v1-protoss-zerg-backwater-gulch

- against cannon rush. (I am not sure it's worth looking at it…)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/171509-1v1-protoss-zerg-taldarim-altar-le

- want to see a miserably failed hydra drop? against air harass:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/171511-1v1-protoss-zerg-shakuras-plateau

Alphasquad

Austria505 Posts

May 03 2011 21:22 GMT

i dont understand why you want to drop hydras - ling or ling/bling drops is way faster and takes far less investments and usually the longer you wait the more difficult those drops will become

im not saying this build is a bad idea but you have to do a lot of damage for that huge investments and every worker pull will make it a waste of resources unless the protoss has no army to deal with hydras but then mutas will be obsolete anyways

greycubed

United States615 Posts

May 03 2011 21:35 GMT

Also not understanding the choice of hydras. They're not good against anything. Only time I tech to them is when I need anti-air faster than I can get mutas out.

Even ignoring their lack of hp, etc. they do just average dps per resource spent.

Macpo

453 Posts

May 03 2011 22:58 GMT

1. About banelings, I have to say I am a bit skeptical, as 1. you can't target buildings 2. there are forcefields on the other side 3 it's a kind of all-inish-risky-pray-that-he-won't-remove-his-drones-before-you-drop stuff.

2. why hydras? in a very specific timing (i.e. just before colossi basically) it's pretty good. better than roaches, as it has a longer range (deals better with force fields); more dps; it basically rapes gateway units; and it's universal: in case there are immortals or air, then no problem.
Basically the idea of the drop is not to do some tricky "surprise surprise" by air. It's just a way to make an hydra push with a way better positioning than you would do without drop.
(I would recommend that you go see Idra vs Cruncher in TSL (game 2) to understand the interest of hydra drops.

Mithrandir

United States99 Posts

May 03 2011 23:05 GMT

Just to add to Macpo, hydras have a range advantage over roaches which is very important when you can't get a concave (i.e. in drop scenarios where there are buildings all around you).

Not to mention that hydras can take out a nexus, pylons, etc much faster than roaches.

And finally, hydras will be great against any immortals or void rays which could wreck your day with roaches.

Roach drops are obviously effective and all. Try it both ways and see which one you like.

Aerodynamic27

Canada115 Posts

May 03 2011 23:24 GMT

This is way more solid then your first thread. I tried experimenting this build with spanishiwa's opening as well, but couldn't get the timings right, So thanks
The queens and spines will easily defend a 4 gate which I used to lose to so much. I hope more players will start doin this

Edit: for those not understanding why use hydras for drops, here is a small history for the build
Hydras are good against anything but colossus, so this build was originally a 10 minute ling/hydra bust which abused the timing where colossus is not out yet. The range of the hydras negate most forcefields. It worked well but had trouble in chokes.
So, someone found outthat researching overlord speed and drops were a good addition to this and wouldn't delay the overall attack. And now we have the hydra drop.
But, the early game of this is quite weak, so someone decided to try this with the spanishiwa opener, and between queens and spines, nothing seemed to be able to break the defenses. And thus, this became he build today, and it still hits at a timing before the collosus

tl;dr hydras are good at anything but colossus. Hit them with hydras before colossus.

iChau

United States1210 Posts

May 03 2011 23:35 GMT

On May 04 2011 06:35 greycubed wrote:
Also not understanding the choice of hydras. They're not good against anything. Only time I tech to them is when I need anti-air faster than I can get mutas out.

Even ignoring their lack of hp, etc. they do just average dps per resource spent.

They beat zealots as long as you can get it a nice position, for example, behind the mineral line where zealots cannot charge it all at once.

If zealots are all able to charge it at once, they can beat the hydras.

However, if you distract him and drop hydras behind his mineral line, the hydras can demolish the mineral line surprisingly fast.

Alphasquad

Austria505 Posts

May 03 2011 23:39 GMT

On May 04 2011 07:58 Macpo wrote:

1. About banelings, I have to say I am a bit skeptical, as 1. you can't target buildings 2. there are forcefields on the other side 3 it's a kind of all-inish-risky-pray-that-he-won't-remove-his-drones-before-you-drop stuff.

2. why hydras? in a very specific timing (i.e. just before colossi basically) it's pretty good. better than roaches, as it has a longer range (deals better with force fields); more dps; it basically rapes gateway units; and it's universal: in case there are immortals or air, then no problem.
Basically the idea of the drop is not to do some tricky "surprise surprise" by air. It's just a way to make an hydra push with a way better positioning than you would do without drop.
(I would recommend that you go see Idra vs Cruncher in TSL (game 2) to understand the interest of hydra drops.

you always have the risk of protoss moving probes away and hydras might have range but they are also slow as hell so you wont be able to chase them

a good drop also happens simultaneously meaning that you distract on one side while the real drop comes to the other base as soon as you got attention and the protoss army moves to your fake drop

JustAGame

Germany161 Posts

May 03 2011 23:43 GMT

On May 04 2011 04:18 Macpo wrote:

my favorite: an epic battle that lasts for 37 mn and end up with knives.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/171507-1v1-protoss-zerg-shakuras-plateau

Wow, i dont mean to be rude. But someone of your skill level (maybe) should not post a guide.
*edit* After rereading my own post it feels a little bit too rude, what i didnt want it to be, so this is the update:

You build like 40 spine crawlers. Your opponent did not get a single upgrade in 30 minutes (not even blink). And still he was winning every fight and was 80 supply ahead. He gave his victory away because he ran into 25 spine crawlers with his stalkers first and his zealots blocked behind.
This game was terribly played.

After that i watched another random replay you posted. Once again your opponent was very bad. The protoss player had 40 supply after 8 minutes, less than 30 probes. He was on 80 supply after 12 minutes. And your drop was killed !!!. A skilled toss player would have like twice the army and just slaughter you right there since your hydra drop is way too late to deal any real damage.

You fall behind in eco compared to almost every zerg build while there is no hint on WHY you do it that way. You even build a spinecrawler when your opponent does not have any units.

You should take more time to refine your build and analyze replays. Since some of your replays were played against very bad protoss players, you should try to find a good player, to try your build against him.
You should always check pro replays and watch the supply count at different time marks, like 7 minutes, 10 minutes 12 minutes. Compare those supply counts (and tech levels) to your actual opponent.
Is he very far behind ?
No: The replay is good to analyze your play.
Yes: If you did not harass him to create this situation, throw the replay away, it wont help you.
If you can win a game with 2000 floating minerals before you are at 200 supply and full upgrades, your opponent was either really bad, or you found a build which is incredibly imbalanced (and i bet, this will never be the case).

*edit2* Since i was quoted and insulted while i was editing my post: I dont want to bash people, and i am well aware of how much afford was put into the OP, this might improve the post, but it does not improve the build. I get the idea behind that build, but an idea does not win the game. The build is just not solid in so many ways, falling behind in eco is one of those as mentioned in my post.

agahamsorr0w

Netherlands359 Posts

May 04 2011 00:53 GMT

#10

On May 04 2011 08:43 JustAGame wrote:

Show nested quote +

Wow, i dont mean to be rude. But someone of your skill level (maybe) should not post a guide.

You build like 40 spine crawlers (thats no joke guys, watch the replay). Your opponent did not get a single upgrade in 30 minutes (not even blink). And still he was winning every fight and was 80 supply ahead. He gave his victory away because he ran into 25 spine crawlers with his stalkers first and his zealots blocked behind.
This game was terribly played.

After that i watched another random replay you posted. Once again your opponent was very bad. The protoss player had 40 supply after 8 minutes, less than 30 probes. He was on 80 supply after 12 minutes. And your drop was killed !!!. A skilled toss player would have like twice the army and just slaughter you right there.

This guide shows how to fall behind in eco, build 40 spinecrawlers and drop hydras about 3 minutes too late to deal any damage while following up with mutas and getting 1/0 upgrades on a 30 minute game.

The best proof that there was more afford put into the post than into the buildorder itself is: You fall behind in eco compared to almost any other zerg build while there is no hint on WHY you do it that way. You even build a spinecrawler when your opponent does not have any units.

I dont even know what to say about this. You definately dont come on tl to learn new ways to play but to tell people to shut up. The point of threads is so you can get your own ideas on how things should be. I am pretty sure you were drunk while writing this because if you werent then you have missed a lot in the young starcraft 2 history.

So let me explain to you what this thread was originally all about:
_hydra drops pwn
_mutas pwn

Why do hydra drops pwn u say? Idra used these in some games and won. This says a lot because idra is known to play only macro. Second, hydras only weaknesses is they have low hp and are slow. Drops give your hydras creep to walk on and the ability to fly like butterflys. This means you only have the weakness of low hp. If you engage with concave AND on a ramp, you negate this weakness so hydras become the best anti gateway stargate and immortal unit you can wish for.

Why do mutas pwn? If its not obvious to you i can 99% guarantee u lived under a rock. i wont say what the 1% is or i might get banned for good.

Why hydra drop first? Read thread. He says it a couple of times.

Why transition to muta? Because you can and mutas pwn hard and are the most annoying unit to deal with in high numbers.

Why blind spines? Hes ice fishing. If you dont know how ice fishing works then it proves you have been living under a rock. Since you defend with only queens and spines you make enough against whatever you scouted for.

So before you post in a thread be sure not to be drunk and have thought about the IDEA first and not the replays. Creativity takes priority not who you play. I simply cant stand you for saying these cruel things about the op. He put too much effort into this to get yelled at. Besides its not your task to tell people what they can or cant do on tl forums. You are not a tl mod are you?

User was temp banned from Strategy Forum for this post

Terminator(471)

United States243 Posts

May 04 2011 01:07 GMT

#11

Thanks for the post. I love watching new inventive play.

Nisani201

United States1400 Posts

May 04 2011 01:51 GMT

#12

Will definitely try this out, Spanishiwa build was giving me problems.

GrassEater

Sweden417 Posts

May 04 2011 01:59 GMT

#13

Going hydras into mutas is not really good gas management. You will probably not get enough to get like 10 mutas directly and they will just dont do any damage. He will probably go blink after he sees the spire if he have good scouting.

I watched the 2 6 gate games you won, and both where far off from the protos to many significant misstakes to list them.

Macpo

453 Posts

May 04 2011 09:02 GMT

#14

@ JustAgame: I have to say I am a bit tired of remarks like that. I am obviously not the greatest grand master of all times and don't mean to be so. Then the question is: am I still allowed to say something or should I shut up and listen religiously to those "who know" (but still don't agree between themselves)? Should we create another forum for average crappy players like me, where we can speak freely ?

I propose this strat as I have remarkable success with it over the past few weeks and months. Protoss players I play against are not crappy bronze players, there are master players I got paired with in ladder (or sometimes tournaments). Obviously there are not grandmaster either, but they are playing reasonably well.
I have been working on this for a while; it's not a one night random idea. I would be very happy to see someone better than me taking the strat to improve it or at least play it more precisely. I would also be happy to practice it with some good protoss interested in it!

For sure, you will always find some mistakes in the execution of the strat. but I feel that remarks like "the guy forgot his upgrade, his strat sucks" is not very productive, because in the end, you absolutely never consider the strat; you criticize the gameplay (fair enough), macro or micro whatever, but not the strat itself. I would recommend that you try it for a couple of games, just to get used to it; and then tell me what you think about it!

Having said that (sorry to bother people with that kind of discussion):
1. I don't think I fall behind in economy with this build. This was true in my previous post, but as I open Spanishiwa, I feel I have a really decent economy. Moreover, I have pretty quickly more bases than he has. It may have happened on some game, but overall it's not necessarily implied by the strat.

2. I am sometimes behind in supply count, as I make spines; but this does not necessarily mean I am behind overall.

3. What's wrong with spines? when you make mass mutas, the alternative to spines is speedlings. Yet, speedlings will cost you a lot of larvae, therefore putting you behind in economy. speedlings will cost you food, and you'll be max much sooner (imagine, when I have 40 spines, as you said, the zergling equivalent could not even be reached). The idea of spines is that it makes base trading more difficult for toss. It is somewhat unusual, but it works for me!

@grasseater: going hydras into mutas is absolutely the core of the strat, and it really makes wonders: 1. because toss will make colossi when he sees hydras, and mutas own colossi 2. because it allows you to maintain constant pressure 3. because there is no gas managment problem. basically, if you make a spire when you leave with hydra/queen drop; you will have between 10 and 15 mutas when it pops up. 4. scouting is easier said than done, as I have an overseer and should be able to kill observers pretty easily.

Thanks for other comments!

greycubed

United States615 Posts

May 04 2011 09:09 GMT

#15

Could everyone PLEASE stop saying hydras do good dps and demolish gateway units? It's SO wrong.

dps per cost:

zergling: 28.74
roach: 8.00
hydra: 9.64

yes, lings cost more larva, but they only use minerals.

Roaches won't bankrupt you on larva though. And they save you a lot of gas. And they're fast. And they don't get one-shot. And you can research burrow-move.

source: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/User:Roemy/Unit_Statistics_(dps_only)

Edit: also I didn't watch your replay, but generally I agree with you about spine crawlers. I think they're underused.

Mithrandir

United States99 Posts

May 04 2011 09:26 GMT

#16

On May 04 2011 18:09 greycubed wrote:
Could everyone PLEASE stop saying hydras do good dps and demolish gateway units? It's SO wrong.

dps per cost:

zergling: 28.74
roach: 8.00
hydra: 9.64

yes, lings cost more larva, but they only use minerals.

Roaches won't bankrupt you on larva though. And they save you a lot of gas. And they're fast. And they don't get one-shot. And you can research burrow-move.

source: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/User:Roemy/Unit_Statistics_(dps_only)

Edit: also I didn't watch your replay, but generally I agree with you about spine crawlers. I think they're underused.

You are completely neglecting the effect of range on dps. Lings do a lot of damage if they can connect. Forcefields and buildings get in the way however. Same with roaches.

Obviously roach drops can be effective. It's silly to say they're clearly better than hydra however.

greycubed

United States615 Posts

May 04 2011 09:34 GMT

#17

Rate of fire is also "neglected" in my post but important as it avoids overkill. However neither are significant enough to favor hydra over roach in anything but an "oh shit I needed anti-air 5 minutes ago" scenario. If you're that concerned about forcefields get burrow move.

Macpo

453 Posts

May 04 2011 09:45 GMT

#18

Also, if you drop with roaches and he has void rays or immortals, it's much more difficult to deal with them.

greycubed

United States615 Posts

May 04 2011 09:58 GMT

#19

Then in that scenario use lings.

Fishermang

Norway56 Posts

May 04 2011 09:58 GMT

#20

I had great success with your first version of this aggressive path, and have been in love with ice fisher build recently, so mixing the two together is very interesting. Thank you very much for the strategy, this will be fun to try out! I also like the idea of spine crawlers, mostly because they are a fighting and moving unit which doesn't cost supply.

1 2 3 4 Next All

Please or register to reply.

An aggressive path in ZvP 2.0

Completed

Ongoing

Upcoming