EPTAn aggressive path in ZvP 2.0 - Page 3
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Tendou
United States54 Posts
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Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
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Morik
65 Posts
Thanks for all the effort you put into this. I have a question about your build order: you chose to go 11pool->10 ovie instead of 11->ovie->pool I'm curious whether you played around with using the overpool instead, and what the results were? | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
On July 15 2011 06:13 Requizen wrote: I think this is kind of a necro. The idea still seems fine, but I don't know if timings still work and how this works against the (ever increasingly popular) 3gate Sentry Expand. I did it yesterday and it worked just fine, although it was mainly because the toss had a bad sim city which allowed my roaches to snipe a forge and gate I believe. | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
NOT TO MENTION THE VERY FIRST SECTION OF THE GUIDE READS VS 3 GATE EXPO. | ||
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IMLyte
Canada714 Posts
i think it is more efficient and gives you a greater map presence | ||
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unit
United States2621 Posts
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
the dude i played had less then 10 stalkers and 2 or 3 each sentries/zealots. definitely punishes protoss who dont have good macro/think they can be greedy. nice work. edit: went 6-0 with this build tonight in customs when the map\positions allowed for it including beating my first masters player (i am r1 plat) | ||
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pandaminion
United States270 Posts
Thanks for the build; definitely will try it out later! | ||
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cywinr
Canada173 Posts
I haven't had time to try this build but I am interested in testing it out as soon as I get a chance. Also, I just thought of an idea. I also open 11overpool 18hatch ice-fisher style. In fact, I go one step further and completely ignore zergling speed in my ZvP mu. You should be familiar with the build enough that I have 15/18 drones/supply when the pool pops, ~250 minerals, and 2 larva. What if: - 15 extractor - 14 queen - 16 zerglings x2 - 18 hatch - @100 gas lair - rush overlord drop tech drop even earlier with roaches and 4 queens Do you think that will be effective as well? It won't be vulnerable to voidrays and transfuse can help keep roaches alive against immortals. | ||
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closey
Hong Kong272 Posts
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Sleeping Drone
Sweden38 Posts
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Macpo
453 Posts
thanks for remarks, just to try to answer to previous remarks - I am not sure about what to say about roaches, as I don't use them personnally except in specific cases... (that i mention after) - about 11 overlord 11 pool instead of 11 pool 11 overlord, I don't know! worth a try, I just suspect it would not change so much the overall stuff... I am still using this BO, cause I think it works pretty well (at my level at least). Now I have been practicing it for a bit more. So a few extra remarks. - the early game is the hardest part. First because there is a small timing windows around 2:00, where your opponent can push with two units. So I recommend having a spine started at around 18/19 just after your 18 hatch, so that you transfer it to your natural when it's almost finished. The goal is to have it ready before 2 min (most people won't push at that time but you know...) Also, for that reason, I recommend making 4 lings and not two, so that you can take your natural as soon as possible. (do not delay the building of your 18 hatch to hide it from scouting probes, as it delays too much your bo. instead, I would recommend making four lings to kill any pylon block. they will be useful for later scouting anyway (some people will put a pylon which will be almost instantly destroyed by your lings, so it may be an advantage for you). After that, make an overlord at 24 and drones until 31, then 2 extra queens (for a total of 3 at around 36 food). Then, until 9/10 min, you are pretty exposed to early pressure, and you have to take a lot of information (ideally your four original lings should be enough, with an overlord at his natural and another one to sacrifice in his main). This is true against 6 gate pushes. Also if you see no expand at 6:15 / 6:30, your opponent is pretty likely doing some kind of DT/void ray or blink one base harass (normal timing for 3 gate expand being 5:45 as far as I know) ... So I recommend in that case to give up the strat (especially against DT, which is likely to transition into archons, which is a bit annoying for your mutas), put down a roach warren, an evolution chamber and 2 spores. while still going to lair; and just mass units, do upgrades and prepare for a two bases push around 10 / 11 min. If you do that correctly, it's usually a reasonably easy win, cause after air or DT harass he won't have enough units to defend. Against blink stalkers, I am not sure still... Of course, same reaction should apply to 4 gate pushes earlier, cause they are not that easy to defend (basically, the problem is scouting in order to react in time, when you don't have speedling, by planting lots of spines, and starting speedling and roach warren asap). later in the game, i think it's always better to not defend and go for base trade with mass mutas... basically, if you see him "all-ining" you, just go on mutas production, transfer your drones from the base he attacks first, make a spawning pool and a spire in the less exposed base, and make sure to send drones all over the place to build extractors, new bases that kind of stuff. never engage his army, sooner or later he will have to retreat to defend his remaining pylons, and then, you just restart your economy. if he tries to kill your remaining base, go kill his pylons... When u train a bit, these base trade situations are kind of easy to win too if you have a reasonable amount of mutas, as you know how to play them (contrary to most of your opponents who don't base trade as often) | ||
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Tendou
United States54 Posts
1.) Due to a hallucinated phoenix, the Protoss can scout your hydra den and will constantly scout more often, especially if you have a lot of overlords congregated at one rally point. Just for safer play, would it be a good idea to put down a roach warren and hide your hydra den tech? 2.) When a 6 gate +1 timing hits, do you send off your hydras to the Protoss base to base trade or defend? 3.) When should you produce lings? I have a tendency to over-drone, knowing that I will use these drones as spines and expos. That causes me to only produce hydras. When should i stop producing drones? I am assuming i need to over-saturate by 14 drones because of 7 spines, 4 extractors, 2 bases, and a spire. | ||
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Morik
65 Posts
On July 19 2011 04:26 Macpo wrote: After that, make an overlord at 24 and drones until 31, then 2 extra queens (for a total of 3 at around 36 food). In your OP, you say to make a queen as soon as the 1st finishes building, then a 3rd queen at the nat when that finishes. It sounds like from the above that you have changed this, and now wait til ~31 food to make the other 2? Or am I misinterpreting the above? If I am not misinterpreting, doesn't building a queen that late get in the way of your lair tech? If you are putting down your gasses at between 36 & 40, won't you have enough for lair before your queen pops? Or does the timing work out? | ||
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CaptPanda
48 Posts
On July 19 2011 04:26 Macpo wrote: later in the game, i think it's always better to not defend and go for base trade with mass mutas... basically, if you see him "all-ining" you, just go on mutas production, transfer your drones from the base he attacks first, make a spawning pool and a spire in the less exposed base, and make sure to send drones all over the place to build extractors, new bases that kind of stuff. never engage his army, sooner or later he will have to retreat to defend his remaining pylons, and then, you just restart your economy. if he tries to kill your remaining base, go kill his pylons... When u train a bit, these base trade situations are kind of easy to win too if you have a reasonable amount of mutas, as you know how to play them (contrary to most of your opponents who don't base trade as often) I tried this build for about 10 ladder games (~1700 masters) and all my wins off it were from base trades. Granted, my opening is a bit rough which hurts my drop, but having a moderate sized muta ball + drop tech is very powerful for base trading. You can pick up drones in your overlords (Queens can be very useful as well to save since transfuse is amazing in these situations) and either just take various expos or just build extractors everywhere around the map. | ||
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Jarlax
76 Posts
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ETisME
12716 Posts
On May 05 2011 01:10 Saracen wrote: This is not a hydra vs zergling DPS thread, so please keep the thread on topic. OP, what JustAGame posted is completely correct. There's no point in discussing a build's efficacy if you're not winning because of the build itself, but because your opponent played poorly. The reason is you'll come to a point where you'll face competent opponents and the build may just stop working entirely (as you found out from your previous thread). Here are some things to consider: At ~8 minutes, a typical 3 gate expand Protoss should have ~60 supply, not ~40. At ~12 minutes, he should be at ~120-130 supply if no engagements have happened, not ~80. A proper 6 gate moves out at ~8:00 minutes and hits somewhere at ~9:00 (depending on the rush distance). I would love to test this build out against you, but I don't have an EU account. So ask yourself this: do you really think you can keep up in macro if you decide to do this build, and do you really think you can hold off well-executed timing attacks with this build? What about a Protoss who goes mass air (heavy phoenix), meaning your drop won't work and neither will mutas? What about a greedier Protoss who takes a fast 3rd and turtles? mass air doesn't stop drops as day[9] said in one of his daily. Mass hydra drops completely kill mass air easily. Taking a fast 3rd will only spread out his defensive, making drops more efficient. Unless the first drops went that horribly wrong, I don't see how it cannot work. With queens and spines and some lings, it should be pretty enough to deal with most protoss pressure as spanishwa has shown | ||
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CaptPanda
48 Posts
Concerning toss builds: 2 base Stargate play is actually one of the best builds to go hydra drops against. Toss doesn't have enough units to challenge your army and there aren't enough air units out to kill enough overlords before you reach their base. Fast 3 base isn't a problem. If he has enough probes to actually benefit from it early enough, then he'll lose his main (which is where his production is.) If he doesn't saturate, then it's just an investment that hasn't paid itself off against a timing push. Drops completely bypass cannons, so it's not easy for toss to turtle. It's not a build you'll see though, since toss probably expects a hydraling timing push and there's no way you take a third in response to that. 6 gate is easily the most difficult build for this strategy. The thing is that this build isn't designed to kill the protoss, it's to basically pressure him into staying in his base while you take the map and build a mutaball. Base trading is a very big threat here. If protoss goes for it there's many many factors that favor the zerg (drop tech, hydraling DPS vs probably sentry heavy gateway DPS.) | ||
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