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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iy3sI.png) Note: in preparation for the incoming HotS beta, this thread has been renamed from Basic to WoL. Once HotS is released, this thread will no longer be updated (archival purposes).
Downloadable PDF
The pdf will likely lag behind its web counterpart, make sure you check to see if it's up to date
i. Intro
The purpose of this thread is to collect common timings for many predominantly used openings in SC2. In setting a good foundation for strategy, it is essential to know when certain things can happen in a match, and when they cannot. In trying to set this foundation for myself I decided to collect the timings I thought were most important to be aware of in order to be a competent player.
Contribution
I will try to make updates as changes happen, however I would appreciate any help in verifying the best possible timings for these openings, updating existing ones for patch changes, or perhaps adding newer openings as they become more popular/standard as some will inevitably become. Also, if you know of general timings that you feel should be here that I've missed, please let me know.
Submitting Replays
+ Show Spoiler [use the following guidelines when subm…] +• Please submit replays beginning with patch 1.4
• Open a custom game on a ladder map, with the appropriate race matchup, and exit the game once or shortly after the objectives have been completed. If a matchup is _vX, choose an appropriate race.
• Send out a worker to 'scout' the opponent at the appropriate time so they are not participating in mining or construction for that time period.
• Unless an opening purposely cuts or delays workers, it will be assumed that constant worker production is being adhered to as best as possible. This will also be a factor in determining the best executions.
-or-
• If you want to submit a pro rep that represents these builds, that works as well.
ii. Updates
+ Show Spoiler +Update 13 [4.21.12] - Added 3 Colossus Push vs. T
Update 12 [3.18.12] - Updated Zerg Averages for 1.4.3, and added the marauder hellion push, and MMA pvt banshee build.
Update 11 [1.4.12] - Updated Protoss FFE and Nexus First timings.
Update 10 [9.20.11] - Terran section now conforms with patch 1.4
Update 9 [9.2.11] - Added more timings in each general section and 4kmonk's anti 4 gate reference.
Update 8 [8.8.11] - Removed pre 1.3 zerg averages and added the more updated averages for post 1.3 and 1.3.3 patches.
Update 7 [7.28.11] - Removed outdated protoss builds, and updated timings to patch 1.3.3. Also added a few builds.
Update 6 [5.13.11] - Added average pro Lair, Infestation Pit, and Hive timings.
Update 5 [4.12.11] - Added a small but useful References Section.
Update 4 [4.9.11] - Added a banner. Yay to using my art skills!
Update 3 [4.3.11] - Timings revised and replays added to Zerg, Terran and Protoss sections. All timings now conform with patch 1.3.
Update 2 [3.23.11] - Added replay guidelines and Acknowledgments section.
Update 1 [3.18.11] - Added links to appropriate Liquipedia pages.
3.18.11 - Finished, Finally! All openings conform with Patch 1.2.2
Table of Contents
i. Intro
ii. Updates
1.0 Terran
1.1 General
1.2 Openings
2.0 Protoss
2.1 General
2.2 Openings
3.0 Zerg
3.1 General
3.2 Average Timings
3.3 Openings
4.0 Acknowledgements
5.0 References
Notes on Format
For early Nexus and CC timings (timngs before ~6:30 min) it is assumed that these structures are in production and not complete. With regards to Zerg, I generally did not follow any particular build but rather focused on their overarching mechanics, following the various tech directions based on the initial opening styles chosen. Some of the openings are underlined? These link to the appropriate Liquipedia or TeamLiquid.net pages for the specificities of the build.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mjv0o.png)
+ Show Spoiler +1.1 Terran General • 50 energy accumulates at OC in ~1:30. • It takes 2:15 from putting down a CC to the completion of an OC. • If you start an OC when another has ~35 energy, they will both have 50 energy when that OC finishes. • A 12 rax completes @2:43. • It is ~2:35 from the time a factory begins to having double medivac/viking production, with the 1st round in play. • It takes ~2:05 from the time a ghost academy goes down, to having ghosts with one emp on the field. • It takes ~2:05 from beginning an armory to the 1st thor completing. • If you begin an armory when +1 is ~%60 (95/160) complete, you will be able to begin +2 when the armory finishes. Begin this at ~%20 (35/160) if a factory is also needed. 1.2 Terran OpeningsBunker Rush » 12 rax • bunker down ~@2:55, marine + bunker ~@3:35 » 11/11 rax • bunker down ~@3:12, 3 marines + bunker @~@3:52 » 12/14 rax • bunker down ~@3:26, 4 marines + bunker @~@4:14 1 Rax FE » vs Z • 1 marine + %55 reaper + CC ~@3:58 » vs P no gas • 2 marines + CC ~@3:47 ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/dl.gif) no gas, into MMA cloaked banshee • CC ~@3:25, facto ~@5:50, port ~@6:43, 12 marines +1st banshee 7:57, cloak @8:45, +3 marines +1 tank +2nd banshee @ 8:56 gas • 1 marine + 1 marauder + CC ~@4:20, +1 marauder @4:40 » vs T no gas, into 1/1/1 • CC ~@3:45, fact ~@6:06, port ~@7:00 gas • 1 marine + CC ~@3:48 2 Rax Planetary Fortress Rush vs. P • 2 marines + ~%70 marauder + CC @4:28, 4 marines +3 marauders + %100 CC @6:08 Marine/SCV all in vs. Z » 2 Rax • 8 marines +~15 scvs @5:05 » 4 Rax • 15 marines +~20 scvs @6:05 2 Rax FE vs. Z • 6 marines + CC ~@4:24, 10 marines @5:15 3 Reaper Rush vs. T • 1st reaper @4:03, 3 reapers @5:05, CC @5:20 4OC vs. Z CC timings can vary greatly with this build, +/- 25s discrepancies are possible • CC's ~@4:10, ~5:10 and ~6:10 2 Rax FE vs. P • 2rax(tr) +1 marine +1 reaper +1 marauder + CC ~@5:10, +2 marines +1 marauder @5:22 3 Rax Marine stim push vs. Z • stim +8 marines @6:23 3 Rax MM stim + conc. push vs. P/T • stim + conc. +7 marines +4 marauders @6:41, +2 marines +2 marauders @7:05 2 Base Ghost Push vs. P • stim + conc. + 17 marines +8 marauders +2 ghosts @9:32 MMM Timing Push • conc. +8 marines +5 marauders +2 medivacs @7:40, stim @8:20 1/1/1 » Marine/Tank push vs. T • siege +9 marines +1 tank +1 viking @6:28, 2nd tank ~@7:03 » Hellion Drop • 8 marines +3 hellions +1 medivac @6:10 » Blu Flame Hellion Drop • 4 hellions +1 medivac @6:45 » Marine/Raven/Banshee/Tank Timing Push vs. P • siege +17 marines +2 tanks +1 raven +1 banshee @ 8:18 » Thor Drop • 7 marines +1 thor +1 medivac @6:50, 2nd medivac @7:23 Cloaked Banshee » Cloak First • 1st banshee @6:40, cloak @7:07, 2nd banshee @7:40 » Banshee First • 1st banshee @6:16, 2nd banshee @7:16, cloak @7:29 2 Port Banshee • 2 banshees @7:02, cloak +4 banshees @8:16 (+9 marines) Marine/Raven vs. Z 0376 Pokebunny. Average timing ~@11:05 • 44 marines +1 Raven @10:46 Reactor Hellion Expand • 4 hellions @5:27, CC ~@5:44 Hellion Marauder Push vs. Z • 8 hellions +6 marauders +2 marines +x scv's @7:12 Blu Flame Hellion • 3 hellions @5:53, pre-igniter @6:18, 4th hellion @6:33 2 Factory Mech » Thor - 9 marines +2 thors @7:36, +4 marines +2 hellions +2 thors @9:17 » Tank - 10 marines +3 tanks + siege @7:29, 4th tank @7:45
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Cnflx.png)
+ Show Spoiler +2.1 Protoss General • A 10 gate completes @2:30. • A 13 gate completes @2:48. • One chronoboost lasts ~1.1 probe production cycle, or ~1.75 probe cycles when on the nexus. Also see the chronoboost math thread. • On a standard 13 gate 17 core, the core will finish at ~3:40. Also if no chronoboost is used on wgr, it will finish @~6:20. • It takes ~3:25 from placing a robo facility down to getting the 1st colossus (2:55 w/ 3 chronos). • The time between putting down a twilight council to having Templar with storm is ~3:30 (2:40 w/ constant chrono(5)). This assumes that Templar have 75 energy when research completes. • It takes ~2:35 from starting a twilight council to having Dark Templar in play. • If you begin a twilight council when +1 is ~%66 (110/160) complete, you will be able to begin +2 when the council finishes. 2.2 Protoss OpeningsCannon Rush • 1st canon begins ~@2:30 2 Gate • 3 zealots @4:00, 5 zealots @4:38 Forge Fast Expand vs. Z » Forge First • 17 Nexus ~@2:55, 17 gate ~@3:20, 1st cannon done ~@3:47 » Nexus First • 15 Nexus ~@2:29, gate ~@3:11, 1st cannon done ~@4:07 • 17 Nexus ~@2:36, gate ~@3:24, 1st cannon done ~@4:23 » FFE into Stargate (~@5:38) • 1 zealot +1 sentry +1 voidray @7:23 » FFE into 7gate +1/1 Immortal/Warp Prism • robo ~@8:16, 2 zealots +8 stalkers +9 sentries +2 immortals +1 warp prism ~@11:12 Nexus First vs. T • 16 Nexus ~@2:32, gate ~@2:47, core ~@3:54 1 Gate Expand vs. T » 20 food • Nexus ~@3:43, 5 stalkers @5:55 » ~30 food • 1 zealot +2 stalkers + Nexus ~@4:58 1 Gate Robo vs. P • 3 zealots +1 stalker +1 immortal @5:58, +2 zealots @6:17, 2nd immortal @6:33 3 Stalker Robo vs. P • %100 robo @6:06, 6 stalkers + 1 sentry @6:22 2 Gate Blink/Obs vs. P • 5 stalkers @5:58, +4 stalkers +blink @7:48 (robo +4 sec), obs @8:29 2 Gate fast Observer vs. T • nexus @6:00, 1 zealot +1 stalker +4 sentries +1 observer @6:13 2 Gate Stargate vs. T • 5 stalkers +1 voidray @6:26, +2 stalkers +2nd voidray @7:22 oGsMC Defensive 3 Gate vs. P » oGsMc variant • 1 zealot +4 stalkers +2 sentries @6:01 » NrGmonk variant (^ see thread) • 1 zealot +4 stalkers +2 sentries @6:07 Defensive 3 Gate vs. P • 1 zealot +6 stalkers @5:50 Sentry Expand vs Z » 2 Gate • nexus @5:46, 1 zealot +6 sentries @6:20 » 3 Gate • nexus @5:37, 1 zealot +5 sentries @5:58 3 Gate Expand vs T • nexus @5:50, 3 stalkers +3 sentries @6:16 oGsMC variant • nexus @4:55, 1 stalker +6 sentries @6:58, robo @7:28, forge +twilight @9:00, +3 gates @10:50 Immortal Push vs. T » 1 Gate Expand • nexus @5:12, robo @5:34, 3 stalkers +7 sentries +2 immortals @9:08 » 3 Gate Expand • nexus @5:50, robo @6:17, 4 stalkers +6 sentries +2 immortals @8:44 Dark Templar Rush • 1 zealot +3 dark templar @6:46 Dark Templar Expand » vs. Z • 2 zealots +3 sentries @6:16, nexus @6:22, +1 zealot +2 dark templar @7:14 » vs. T • 4 zealots +1 stalker +1 sentry @6:10, nexus @7:06, +2 zealots +1 sentry +2 dark templar @8:00 Blink Stalker » 4gate vs. Z • 8 stalkers @6:58, blink @7:10 1 Gas 4 Warpgate vs. P • wgr done @5:16, 1 zealot +6 stalkers @5:45 6 Gate vs. Z » Forge FE • +1 attack +14 stalkers +4 sentries @9:30 » 3 Gate Expo • 10 zealots +9 stalkers +7 sentries @9:40 (off a 5 gate) 1 Gate Stargate vs Z • 2 phoenices +1 voidray @7:04 (+3 zealots +2 stalkers +1 sentry) +1 Warp Prism Drop vs. Z • tech complete @6:20, prism + 5 zealots @6:30 2 Base 3 Colossus Push vs. T • Nexus @4:24, robo bay + dbl forge @7:32, +1/0/1 + thermal lance + 3 zealots +8 stalkers +5 sentries +3 colossus ~@11:15 2 Base dbl Forge vs. T • +2/0/2 + thermal lance + 17 zealots +15 stalkers +6 sentries +2 colossus ~@14:00
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3azIY.png)
+ Show Spoiler +3.1 Zerg General • 3:15 - Elapsed time from gas put down to ling speed finishing. • gas/pool - send drone for extractor at ~70mins (~100 gas when pool finishes). • A 10 pool completes @2:18. • 14 gas/pool, pool completes @3:12. • It takes ~3:10 from starting a Lair to having baneling/roach speed. • It takes ~3:33 from starting a Lair to having mutas on the field (~3:40 for corruptors). • From starting a Lair, to having both roach speed and tunneling claws is ~5:00. • It takes ~2:10 from starting an infestation pit, to having infestors in play with one fungal growth (beginning infestor production when pathogen glands are ~%40 done, or 31/80). If you skip pathogen glands, you will have infestors with one fungal in ~2:25. • From the time a Hive begins to having brood lords in play is ~3:54 (assumes you have made corruptors before greater spire completes and have a spire before hive completes). • It takes ~3:40 from starting a Hive to having ultralisks in play. • If you begin a Lair when +1 is ~%50 (80/160), you will be able to begin +2 when the Lair finishes. Similarly, if you start your Hive when +2 is ~%50 (~%20 if you need the infestation pit as well), you will be able to begin +3 when the Hive completes. 3.2 Zerg Average TimingsThese timings represent the average completion for various paths at the highest level of play regarding the current metagame (currently 1.4.3).• A Lair completes on average at ~9:21.
~8:43 zvp, ~9:03 zvt, ~10:19 zvz (swings approx. ±3 minutes)
• A Spire on 2 bases completes on average ~@12:01 with 5-9 mutas able to be produced. ±60s discrepancies are
possible as this timing is very dependent upon the amount of pressure put on the zerg.
~12:06 zvp, ~10:57 zvt, ~11:49 zvz (swinging drastically)
• The Spire timing when preceded by an Infestation Pit completes on average ~@14:46
~13:44 zvp, ~13:37 zvt, zvz not viable (not enough data)
• The average Infestation Pit before Spire completes at ~11:58.
~11:56 zvp, ~11:28 zvt, ~12:31 zvz
• The average Infestation Pit after Spire completes at ~13:42.
~13:23 zvp, ~13:47 zvt, ~13:55 zvz
• A Hive completes on average at ~16:52.
~16:10 zvp, ~16:33 zvt, ~17:23 zvz (swinging wildly)
• A Hive where the Infestation Pit is first completes on average at ~15:52.
~15:26 zvp, ~15:02 zvt, ~17:08 zvz (swinging wildly) 3.3 Zerg Openings » 6 Pool • 6pool, 6 lings @2:11 » 3 Roach Rush • 3 Roaches @3:33 » 3 Roach/Speedling vs. P • 3 Roaches @4:27, speed +12 lings @5:10 » Roach/Speedling All In vs. FFE P • 7 roaches + 10 speedlings @6:20 » 7 Roach Rush • 6 Roaches @4:43, 7th @4:50 » Baneling Bust • 6 banes +14 lings @5:20 (ZvZ: 1st 4 banelings possible @4:59) » Roach/Speedling Expand vs. Z • +1 missle attk +13 roaches +38 speedlings @9:25 The timings below represent the earliest possible completion for each specific tech path. Beginning with lair tech, these timings will begin to vary, sometimes drastically, from normal/standard/stable playstyles.+ Show Spoiler [earliest timngs] +1 Base Play
» 14 gas/pool, ling speed + queen +2 lings
- transition to lair -
• lair @5:22
• spire @7:02, 4-5 mutas possible
2 Base Play
14 Gas/Pool
• 14gas, 14pool, 15OL, queen + 2 lings, 20Hatch down ~@3:55, ling speed @5:02,
*2nd queen begins when 1st inject is ~%85 done*
transition to lair
• lair @6:45
• hydra den @7:25
• infestation pit @7:35 -> pathogen glands @8:55
• OL speed @7:45 -> ventral sacs @8:55
• spire(see 3.2)/burrow @8:25
• roach speed/baneling speed @8:35
transition to hive
• hive @9:15
• ultralisk cavern @10:20
• greater spire @10:55
14Pool/16Hatch
» 16 Hatch down ~@2:42, 20 gas, ling speed @6:45
transition to lair + 3rd queen
• lair @7:10
Hatch First (dbl Queen)
» 14Hatch • timings ~5s faster than 15hatch
» 15Hatch • down ~@2:12, ling speed @6:15,
transition to lair + 3rd queen
• lair @6:33
• hydra den @7:13
• infestation pit @7:23 -> pathogen glands @8:43
• OL speed @7:30 -> ventral sacs @8:40
• spire(see 3.2)/burrow @8:13
• roach speed/baneling speed @8:23
transition to hive
• hive @9:03
• ultralisk cavern @10:08
• greater spire @10:43
4.0 Acknolwedgements
+ Show Spoiler +Thanks to the people who have helped in keeping this up to date and accurate
Big ♥'s to TL.net for advertising!
Najda, pAzand, monk, Sleight
5.0 References
~8% faster gas mining
Liquipedia II
Timing, A BroodWar [G] by Chill
SC2 Recommended Threads
Protoss FAQs
Ladder Map Analyzer Pics
+ Show Spoiler [Needed Additions] +
+ Show Spoiler [Deprecated] + Deprecated Timings+ Show Spoiler +Either there were patch changes that made these openings (or timings) obsolete, or metagame shifts that effectively did the same+ Show Spoiler [1.3.3 metagame timtings ZvX] + • A Lair completes on average at ~8:26.
~8:28 zvt, ~8:24 zvp, zvz swings drastically with this timing
• A Spire on 2 bases completes on average ~@10:35 with 5-9 mutas able to be produced. +/- 60s discrepancies are possible as this timing is very dependent upon the amount of pressure put on the zerg.
~10:20 zvt, ~10:51 zvp, zvz not viable (swings drastically)
• The average Infestation Pit completes at ~12:31.
~12:24 zvt, ~12:14 zvp, ~12:54 zvz
• A Hive completes on average at ~15:37.
~15:42 zvt, ~15:33 zvp, zvz not viable (again, swings drastically) • A Lair completes on average at ~8:00.
~7:48 zvt, ~8:03 zvp, zvz swings drastically with this timing
• A Spire on 2 bases completes ~@9:12 with 5-9 mutas able to be produced. +/- 60s discrepancies are possible as this timing is very dependent upon the amount of pressure put on the zerg.
• The average Infestation Pit completes at ~15:00.
~14:42 zvt, ~15:35 zvp, ~14:52 zvz
• A Hive completes on average at ~17:00.
~16:54 zvt, ~17:20 zvp Poll: Would an attached rep be useful in verifying best timings?Yes (262) 56% Yes, but only if they are pro reps (159) 34% No, but if you are submitting a better time this should be a requirement (25) 5% meh... (14) 3% No, Liquipedia takes care of this (6) 1% 466 total votes Your vote: Would an attached rep be useful in verifying best timings? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): Yes, but only if they are pro reps
(Vote): No, but if you are submitting a better time this should be a requirement
(Vote): No, Liquipedia takes care of this
(Vote): meh...
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Oh, nice. This is very helpful.
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Thanks, needed a couple BOs. Zerg player here.
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Update with BO and it will be super effective !
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On March 18 2011 22:12 dzieciol001 wrote:
Update with BO and it will be super effective ! I will not add the order here, but was thinking of linking the Liquipedia page, or TL page where appropriate. I just have to figure out a concise way of doing that.
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I always assumed I was doing the standard 1 gas 4WG rush but I have 6 stalkers, a zealot, and my warpgates are finished warping in at like 5:45-5:50. I was looking at some GSL PVP VODs and I only seem to be 3-4 seconds off, not 20+ like your list here implies. Where can I find the build order for this apparently much faster rush?
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On March 19 2011 02:26 Turgid wrote:
I always assumed I was doing the standard 1 gas 4WG rush but I have 6 stalkers, a zealot, and my warpgates are finished warping in at like 5:45-5:50. I was looking at some GSL PVP VODs and I only seem to be 3-4 seconds off, not 20+ like your list here implies. Where can I find the build order for this apparently much faster rush? Bothers me when I do that. I re-examined the positions, and the 6 stalker version is inherently better, and completes at 5:44.
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I think there are at least 2 big threads on this topic - maybe we should merge them?
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On March 19 2011 05:25 gavinashun wrote:
I think there are at least 2 big threads on this topic - maybe we should merge them? I only know of one other thread that is close to this one. If it is the one I'm thinking of, I did take a bit of the information from there.
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OP has been updated with links to relevant Liquipedia pages!
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On March 19 2011 06:23 wo1fwood wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 05:25 gavinashun wrote:
I think there are at least 2 big threads on this topic - maybe we should merge them? I only know of one other thread that is close to this one. If it is the one I'm thinking of, I did take a bit of the information from there.
Cool cool - thanks for putting together!
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A good thing to add would be some replay verification of the build order timings. I'd be happy to help with some of these and post the times I got. I'll start with some of the Terran ones and just post replays of me doing it vs a computer, and quitting after I reach the checkpoint.
1 Rax FE: CC @ ~3:50 (Tested this 5 times and got between 3:48 and 3:53 every time)
Replay: http://drop.sc/1839 (3:48 in this replay)
2 Rax FE: CC @ 4:20-4:25 and 10 Marines @ 5:10-5:15
Replay http://drop.sc/1841 (4:24 CC 5:13 Marines)
2 Rax FE vs P: 3 Marines 2 Marauders 1 Reaper and CC @ 5:15 (Followed the build on Liquipedia which gets CC later than 1 Marine and 1 Reaper)
Replay http://drop.sc/1842 (CC @ 5:10 3 Rine 2 Marauder 1 Reaper @ 5:14)
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This is a really helpful thing to have. But all this is not when the things are in your base. You can almost say that everything is 40 seconds later then this timings.
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On March 19 2011 11:24 caracarn wrote:
This is a really helpful thing to have. But all this is not when the things are in your base. You can almost say that everything is 40 seconds later then this timings.
I'm pretty sure the timings are just for practice validation to make sure you're doing it as efficiently as you should be. Or at least that's what I would use them for.
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Can we have this sticked or on liquipedia or something? This is super important.
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at what level of play can i look at this and use it? im in plat and i dont think me or other people i play time stuff well.
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On March 19 2011 14:24 plbro81 wrote:
at what level of play can i look at this and use it? im in plat and i dont think me or other people i play time stuff well.
I feel like it helps Zerg a lot considering we play DRONEDRONEDRONE UNIIIIIIIIIITS
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On March 19 2011 10:55 Najda wrote:+ Show Spoiler +A good thing to add would be some replay verification of the build order timings. I'd be happy to help with some of these and post the times I got. I'll start with some of the Terran ones and just post replays of me doing it vs a computer, and quitting after I reach the checkpoint. 1 Rax FE: CC @ ~3:50 (Tested this 5 times and got between 3:48 and 3:53 every time) Replay: http://drop.sc/1839 (3:48 in this replay) 2 Rax FE: CC @ 4:20-4:25 and 10 Marines @ 5:10-5:15 Replay http://drop.sc/1841 (4:24 CC 5:13 Marines) 2 Rax FE vs P: 3 Marines 2 Marauders 1 Reaper and CC @ 5:15 (Followed the build on Liquipedia which gets CC later than 1 Marine and 1 Reaper) Replay http://drop.sc/1842 (CC @ 5:10 3 Rine 2 Marauder 1 Reaper @ 5:14)
I don't know, do people agree that this would be helpful?
Poll: Would an attached rep be useful in verifying best timings?Yes (262) 56% Yes, but only if they are pro reps (159) 34% No, but if you are submitting a better time this should be a requirement (25) 5% meh... (14) 3% No, Liquipedia takes care of this (6) 1% 466 total votes Your vote: Would an attached rep be useful in verifying best timings? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): Yes, but only if they are pro reps
(Vote): No, but if you are submitting a better time this should be a requirement
(Vote): No, Liquipedia takes care of this
(Vote): meh...
On March 19 2011 12:47 Najda wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 11:24 caracarn wrote:
This is a really helpful thing to have. But all this is not when the things are in your base. You can almost say that everything is 40 seconds later then this timings. I'm pretty sure the timings are just for practice validation to make sure you're doing it as efficiently as you should be. Or at least that's what I would use them for.
Partially this, and that you can always just add the approximate travel time to this in order to know when they are in your base. I didn't want to list those timings because the travel time on Shakuras is a lot longer than close air positions on LT or Meta, so there can be a lot of variance. I should mention that the 4warpgate and korean 4gate are obviously at or in your base at the above times.
On March 19 2011 14:24 plbro81 wrote:
at what level of play can i look at this and use it? im in plat and i dont think me or other people i play time stuff well.
These timings should represent the best possible times for these openings.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 19 2011 22:11 wo1fwood wrote:On March 19 2011 10:55 Najda wrote:+ Show Spoiler +A good thing to add would be some replay verification of the build order timings. I'd be happy to help with some of these and post the times I got. I'll start with some of the Terran ones and just post replays of me doing it vs a computer, and quitting after I reach the checkpoint. 1 Rax FE: CC @ ~3:50 (Tested this 5 times and got between 3:48 and 3:53 every time) Replay: http://drop.sc/1839 (3:48 in this replay) 2 Rax FE: CC @ 4:20-4:25 and 10 Marines @ 5:10-5:15 Replay http://drop.sc/1841 (4:24 CC 5:13 Marines) 2 Rax FE vs P: 3 Marines 2 Marauders 1 Reaper and CC @ 5:15 (Followed the build on Liquipedia which gets CC later than 1 Marine and 1 Reaper) Replay http://drop.sc/1842 (CC @ 5:10 3 Rine 2 Marauder 1 Reaper @ 5:14) I don't know, do people agree that this would be helpful? Poll: Would an attached rep be useful in verifying best timings?Yes (262) 56% Yes, but only if they are pro reps (159) 34% No, but if you are submitting a better time this should be a requirement (25) 5% meh... (14) 3% No, Liquipedia takes care of this (6) 1% 466 total votes Your vote: Would an attached rep be useful in verifying best timings? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): Yes, but only if they are pro reps
(Vote): No, but if you are submitting a better time this should be a requirement
(Vote): No, Liquipedia takes care of this
(Vote): meh...
On March 19 2011 12:47 Najda wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 11:24 caracarn wrote:
This is a really helpful thing to have. But all this is not when the things are in your base. You can almost say that everything is 40 seconds later then this timings. I'm pretty sure the timings are just for practice validation to make sure you're doing it as efficiently as you should be. Or at least that's what I would use them for. Partially this, and that you can always just add the approximate travel time to this in order to know when they are in your base. I didn't want to list those timings because the travel time on Shakuras is a lot longer than close air positions on LT or Meta, so there can be a lot of variance. I should mention that the 4warpgate and korean 4gate are obviously at or in your base at the above times. On March 19 2011 14:24 plbro81 wrote:
at what level of play can i look at this and use it? im in plat and i dont think me or other people i play time stuff well. These timings should represent the best possible times for these openings.
In response to the poll, I think for a full game replay I'd definately want to see a pro to use it, but for the replays that I was providing (just reaching the timings and stopping) it'd be fine for anyone with decent mechanics to provide a replay. The variables are so limited in the early game that you can clearly see if the player is making a mistake or not.
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I would tend to agree with this^^, although I think I would set a few stipulations. For example, unless there is a defined worker count or the opening is an all in, # workers would matter as well. Another would be having to send out one worker to serve as a 'scout' at the appropriate time?
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This is great! I am not too worried about the replays, mainly because I compared this to my list of timings and most of them are within +/- 5s, suggesting careful proper play by the OP.
I would like to see each timing broken down by the MUs you can realistically use it in. Having a little redundancy is worth having an easier way to process this information.
Cheers!
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On March 19 2011 12:47 Najda wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 11:24 caracarn wrote:
This is a really helpful thing to have. But all this is not when the things are in your base. You can almost say that everything is 40 seconds later then this timings. I'm pretty sure the timings are just for practice validation to make sure you're doing it as efficiently as you should be. Or at least that's what I would use them for.
Oh i thought this was a guide to have a little better knowledge what the opponent was doing. For instance if July would have had the timings for a 3 gate expo in his head, he would have known that something was up because the expo was 20 seconds late..
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On March 20 2011 22:49 caracarn wrote:
Oh i thought this was a guide to have a little better knowledge what the opponent was doing. For instance if July would have had the timings for a 3 gate expo in his head, he would have known that something was up because the expo was 20 seconds late.. It's a bit of both. As I mentioned before, there is a lot of variance in distance based on maps and spawn positions. I figured I'd leave it up to the player to know the travel distances on the maps, but maybe that could be another section..
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Good thread. I totally forgot about my thread, but I think this one is way better and more organized.
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On March 20 2011 22:49 caracarn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 12:47 Najda wrote:On March 19 2011 11:24 caracarn wrote:
This is a really helpful thing to have. But all this is not when the things are in your base. You can almost say that everything is 40 seconds later then this timings. I'm pretty sure the timings are just for practice validation to make sure you're doing it as efficiently as you should be. Or at least that's what I would use them for. Oh i thought this was a guide to have a little better knowledge what the opponent was doing. For instance if July would have had the timings for a 3 gate expo in his head, he would have known that something was up because the expo was 20 seconds late..
That too, I didn't even think of that! 
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3 Gate 1 Robo with 4 zealots/1 stalker/1 zealot can be achieved with full saturation in main like 30 seconds earlier than 6:05.
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On March 21 2011 08:48 PJA wrote:
3 Gate 1 Robo with 4 zealots/1 stalker/1 zealot can be achieved with full saturation in main like 30 seconds earlier than 6:05. What is the build order that allows this timing to be drastically different than what I achieved? Could you link or post a rep of this occurring?
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Cool post, thanks for the good info.
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OP has been updated with guidelines for submitting replays.
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Isn't this called Liquipedia?
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On March 23 2011 22:38 FreezerJumps wrote:
Isn't this called Liquipedia? You have a valid concern, and in an ideal world where LP had this information I would agree with your concerns. However, a good bit of this information is absent... and this thread is about best timings only, not the analysis of build orders.
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Is there any chance of this list getting updated as soon as we evolve and getting used to 1.3 please?
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On March 25 2011 04:52 minimalistic wrote:
Is there any chance of this list getting updated as soon as we evolve and getting used to 1.3 please? If I understand you correctly, are you asking when and if these timings will conform with patch 1.3? If that's the case, the only changes to times involve bunker and stim, which only covers 3 of these timings. Updates will happen periodically in order to keep up with the evolving landscape.
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Terran section has been updated with revised timings and added replays.
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This is a great guide! Thank you for compiling it. =) Is the information on Liquipedia current as of the new patch?
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Protoss section has now been updated and revised. Replays added as well.
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Great. Now I have to update my spreadsheet!
Thank youuuu! ♥ ♥
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great thread, really useful
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This would make a great Liquipedia page.
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This has helped me so much. Not only does it give you vital timing information that would take a lot of effort to accumulate on your own, but it also shows examples of how to execute certain build orders. This is wonderful because recently I've been having trouble with build orders and this post is exactly what I needed to improve my play. A big thanks to the OP and any of the contributors.
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Thank you so much as a low platinum player I thank you for making these timings more apparent to me ^_^ so far it has helped me win around 10 games.
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I'd kiss you on the lips if we met in person
Thank you thank you THANK YOU!
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Most useful post I have ever found browsing TL simply due to the fact that I play Zerg and I feel that as such I should be able to look at the time at any given point in the early game and know what I should have to expect. Thank you.
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nifty, need some help to check what ime certain things will come.
Thanks very much.
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I want to say thank you so much for keeping this updated! looking forward to some zerg replays ^^
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Thanks for the post!
I downloaded your 3-gate blink stalker build and the replay was of a 2-gate robo build. If you could switch that up that would be a huge help.
Thanks
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This piece of work is quite useful and helpful, thanks for your contribution.
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On April 02 2011 05:12 Deferred wrote:
I downloaded your 3-gate blink stalker build and the replay was of a 2-gate robo build. If you could switch that up that would be a huge help.
Thanks Whoops! Apparently the 3 stalker robo was in two places, it has since been fixed.
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Lol, I find this to be somewhat useful... but it's not like a human being is going to remember ALL these timings. Well, just maybe someone might be able to.
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SIX POOL!
Don't forget to send your drones!
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Zerg section has been updated with a few added replays. All updates now conform with patch 1.3.
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Wonder if there's a way to incorporate these sorts of things into the YABOT. Maybe specify pushes that come at the times they would most likely come at so that someone could try and be ready for them. Something like that. I'm just spitballing.
Anways, thanks for the post. Very helpful.
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Great resource! Bookmarked ^^
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this thread is awesome and has great potential if you keep updating this constantly! keep up the good work!
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Just what I've been looking for. Thanks so much for starting this thread 
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I was thinking this as i walked through my door this afternoon.
please marry me!
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Very well done! Checking out the P replays later on
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Pretty sure 7RR can be done so that 7 roaches spawn slightly before 4:40, like 4:36 or 4:38; this comes from evolution chamber (the program).
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Cool thread, saw the tl update on fb and checked it out. Gonna help a lot of people
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I was just thinking about something like this not two days ago. Awesome stuff, keep up the good work!
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WOW! amazing thread man, great contribution
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this thread is the mf boss, thank you
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Thanks so much! I just favorited this page as I have a feeling I will be visiting it often.
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This is awesome. I have just spent 4 weeks writing down timings in my notebook, and when I am comparing those to the timings in this thread, it makes me smile . Good work!
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Amazing thread. I hope more people catch the TL tweet and check this out. Nice work.
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amazing work...thank you so much for this
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Awesomely amazing work OP! I will surely be coming back to this thread many, many times.
Great job and thank-you!
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This could be even more useful if it were more specific. If you are really trying to nail down a build you need to know the variations of your opponents build.
eg w/ DT
Gases on 14 and 21 w/ stalker first.
Gases on 14 and after first stalker chase scout worker away ~26
What if opponent gas steals and a zealot is made during core which destroys the stolen gas then gas is taken?
As we saw in MLG this weekend Kiwi had his pvp build timed perfectly so that he got an observer right as the DT got to his base in this very situation.
How long does it take if player has no gas and 2 geysers to warp in a dt?
Unfortunately I'm too busy to work on this now, but I hope to be able to contribute in the future.
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Can anyone comment on their experience with Adelscott's PVP build listed against 4 gates and how viable it is against it?
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what is the timing for hatch first mutas?
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3 gate sentry expand vs zerg can be done quicker, even I did it in 05:53 with a probe more than the replay showing.
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Wow this is awesome - thanks for providing this!
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Thanks really much for this! Really helpful
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Great thread man. So helpful.
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On April 05 2011 07:23 Automata wrote:
Can anyone comment on their experience with Adelscott's PVP build listed against 4 gates and how viable it is against it? I would go look at the original TL thread. Theres some good responses there.
On April 05 2011 07:33 pAzand wrote:
3 gate sentry expand vs zerg can be done quicker, even I did it in 05:53 with a probe more than the replay showing. I'll take a look, but if you don't mind following the instructions and submitting a rep of this, I'd be happy to accept it.
On April 05 2011 03:16 ferry wrote:
Pretty sure 7RR can be done so that 7 roaches spawn slightly before 4:40, like 4:36 or 4:38; this comes from evolution chamber (the program). ^^see above^^ Or if you find one showing this, that works as well.
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Really great post! I bookmarked it and I am sure that I will be referring to it time and time again as I try and improve. thanks for all the work you put into it
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On April 05 2011 09:54 DurandaL917 wrote:
Really great post! I bookmarked it and I am sure that I will be referring to it time and time again as I try and improve. thanks for all the work you put into it
How do you bookmark a thread cuz I want to bookmark this thread
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Been thinking for awhile asking myself why this exact thing does not exist yet, now it does. Great job, bookmarked.
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Just to check quickly - When it says 7 roach rush is at 4:50min, i assume that is the time the roaches hatch...so therefore they can attack you around say 5:10min (assuming a small map)??
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Wow, didn't see this thread till now, but thanks this will be very very useful :D
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
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Awesome post wo1fwood! It's really cool seeing the collection of timings in one space, if just to study the game.
I am really tempted to put together a LP article or set of articles with this info, to provide a chart and organization to it, would you be interested in collaborating on it? I say tempted for now because I am kind of bogged down with RL work but if you are interested I will try to make some time ^_^
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Great thread! I was just looking at some timings today, maybe you'd like to include this too, if anyone finds it useful:
QXC vs Ret on MLG Metalopolis.
TvZ:
reactor hellions --> 1 port banshee (no cloak, no blue flame)
Replay here: http://s3.majorleaguegaming.com/140-22295.html
@5:30 --> 4 Hellions
@6:20 --> 1st banshee pops
@7:20 --> 2nd banshee
edit: QXC expands as well, @6:40 (?). There are a lot of transitions/variations obviously, but I feel like I've seen it enough times 
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On April 05 2011 09:27 wo1fwood wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 07:23 Automata wrote:
Can anyone comment on their experience with Adelscott's PVP build listed against 4 gates and how viable it is against it? I would go look at the original TL thread. Theres some good responses there. Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 07:33 pAzand wrote:
3 gate sentry expand vs zerg can be done quicker, even I did it in 05:53 with a probe more than the replay showing. I'll take a look, but if you don't mind following the instructions and submitting a rep of this, I'd be happy to accept it. Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 03:16 ferry wrote:
Pretty sure 7RR can be done so that 7 roaches spawn slightly before 4:40, like 4:36 or 4:38; this comes from evolution chamber (the program). ^^see above^^ Or if you find one showing this, that works as well.
Oh, ofc, sorry! http://drop.sc/users/42897/uploads - Still som glitches in my execution though, done in 05:53.
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On April 05 2011 13:11 bankai wrote:
Just to check quickly - When it says 7 roach rush is at 4:50min, i assume that is the time the roaches hatch...so therefore they can attack you around say 5:10min (assuming a small map)?? you can watch the rep attached to confirm but yes, the roaches hatched at those times.
On April 05 2011 18:34 pAzand wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 09:27 wo1fwood wrote:On April 05 2011 07:23 Automata wrote:
Can anyone comment on their experience with Adelscott's PVP build listed against 4 gates and how viable it is against it? I would go look at the original TL thread. Theres some good responses there. On April 05 2011 07:33 pAzand wrote:
3 gate sentry expand vs zerg can be done quicker, even I did it in 05:53 with a probe more than the replay showing. I'll take a look, but if you don't mind following the instructions and submitting a rep of this, I'd be happy to accept it. On April 05 2011 03:16 ferry wrote:
Pretty sure 7RR can be done so that 7 roaches spawn slightly before 4:40, like 4:36 or 4:38; this comes from evolution chamber (the program). ^^see above^^ Or if you find one showing this, that works as well. Oh, ofc, sorry! http://drop.sc/users/42897/uploads - Still som glitches in my execution though, done in 05:53. Your completion time here is 6 seconds later, at 5:59. Warping in units is not the same as having them. Your probe count was better however. Thanks for the submission, it's been added to the OP.
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For your:
1 Rax FE
» vs Z • 1 marine + %70 reaper + CC ~@3:58
» vs P • 1 marine + 2 marauders + CC ~@4:43
» vs T • 1 marine + CC ~@3:48
is the CC when you start building? or is that the time its suppose to finish
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On April 05 2011 23:13 CrayonKing wrote:
is the CC when you start building? or is that the time its suppose to finish when it goes down.
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1 racks FE against protoss is actually
depot, barracks, 1 marine, command center, bunker bunker. Then from there your econ is high enough to pump multiple racks of marines to fill up the bunkers and if a 4 gate is scouted then you can throw down extra bunkers, but it is a safe opening on maps with a choked natural ie: shattered temple
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On April 06 2011 01:32 Zlasher wrote:
1 racks FE against protoss is actually
depot, barracks, 1 marine, command center, bunker bunker. Then from there your econ is high enough to pump multiple racks of marines to fill up the bunkers and if a 4 gate is scouted then you can throw down extra bunkers, but it is a safe opening on maps with a choked natural ie: shattered temple I thought about adding this variation before, and on second thought it probably would be useful to do so.
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On April 06 2011 01:32 Zlasher wrote:
1 racks FE against protoss is actually
depot, barracks, 1 marine, command center, bunker bunker. Then from there your econ is high enough to pump multiple racks of marines to fill up the bunkers and if a 4 gate is scouted then you can throw down extra bunkers, but it is a safe opening on maps with a choked natural ie: shattered temple
where do you place that first bunker? ramp?
Are you buiilding this CC in base or at natural
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On April 06 2011 04:41 CrayonKing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 01:32 Zlasher wrote:
1 racks FE against protoss is actually
depot, barracks, 1 marine, command center, bunker bunker. Then from there your econ is high enough to pump multiple racks of marines to fill up the bunkers and if a 4 gate is scouted then you can throw down extra bunkers, but it is a safe opening on maps with a choked natural ie: shattered temple where do you place that first bunker? ramp? Are you buiilding this CC in base or at natural It depends on the map. If you have an easily defensible natural then you could build them there, otherwise it could be risky as more attack paths are more difficult to defend. If you haven't seen Day[9] Daily #101, that might help.
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What is the typical 6gate timing?
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On April 06 2011 09:30 statikg wrote:
What is the typical 6gate timing? I think its around the 9 minute mark (PvZ) but I don't remember exactly. I need to add this, but have to look some things up first.
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if a zerg fast expands how quickly can he get 12 mutas? according to the list spire is done at 8:13 but presumably 12 mutas can not be made immidiately?
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favorite rush is the blink stalker one... anyone have replays for blink stalker and dark templar rushes?
EDIT: I got the ones from the OP. I was wondering if I can get more examples of well executed ones.
P.S. Can we get some replays for 1 Rax FE? Preferably from a tourney?
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On April 06 2011 11:09 Nairi wrote:
if a zerg fast expands how quickly can he get 12 mutas? according to the list spire is done at 8:13 but presumably 12 mutas can not be made immidiately?
you're only going to get about 5-8 mutas on the first pop depending on when the spire went down. I need to do some research into fastest times vs. average pro times as I've seen the spire complete about 1 minute later than this timing quite a lot.
Edit: As I suspected, the average 2 base spire timing completed around 9:12 with 5-9 mutas being available at that time. This was however extremely dependent on the amount of pressure put on the zerg. Sometimes they could get the spire out a 8:14, other times 9:50. Sometimes they had the spire but could not produce any mutas.
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Typically mutas come at 10-13 minutes, if they hit you before 10 I have to say you probably didn't apply enough early game pressure. At least in TvZ mutas basically ALWAYS come. The only macro game situation in which you won't see mutas is if you see infestors first. Then you might still see mutas, but not for a while, and when they do come they probably will come in numbers too large to defend by turrets, build one turret in the middle of your mineral line anyway. If you can't find a spire, and there is no giant 2base baneling bust coming and no infestors, they have hidden it, prepare for mutas anyway.
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i love you man! life-saving post! might actually make me switch to random from terran once i get my 250 wins achi :D
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Awesome thread! Makes it easy to see where you're at when coming up with a new build.
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What is the best way to defend against a 4WG rush or any early rush by P if you 1rax FE.
Is dropping 2 rax infront of ur nat sufficient?
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On April 09 2011 00:39 CrayonKing wrote:
What is the best way to defend against a 4WG rush or any early rush by P if you 1rax FE.
Is dropping 2 rax infront of ur nat sufficient?
I assume you mean 2 bunkers and not rax, but this should answer your question:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=209914
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great guide really helped me but whats difference between say 4 warpgate and 4 gate with 1 gas?
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Best thread ever! Thank you so much for posting this, will help a ton when trying to analyze my replays!
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Banner has been added to the OP!
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I really like this guide.. I think its a great idea. I feel alot of people can't really stick to multiple BO's and have no idea about the importance of timing within them. As day9 said in one of his daily's.. in most cases using timing, you can even tell the spawn location of the other players.
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Added a quick references section. There's also a Broodwar guide by Chill that explains the importance of timing.
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K4G timing seems a bit off... if research is done at 4 7, then zealots should be in the opponent's base 10 seconds later, 4:10 at the latest not 4:19.
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On April 13 2011 06:40 Anihc wrote:K4G timing seems a bit off... if research is done at 4 7, then zealots should be in the opponent's base 10 seconds later, 4:10 at the latest not 4:19. There's that short period where the wg transform is occurring, so that adds 10 seconds before you can actually warp in any units. The 4:47/8 time is when wgr at the core finishes. Do you think it's better to list the actual time where you can begin to warp in units rather than the research completion?
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wow sick thread. bookmarked
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Would anyone be so kind to get the timing for planetary fortress rush? I dont play terran so mine wouldnt be optimal
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On April 13 2011 07:40 JasinAli wrote:Would anyone be so kind to get the timing for planetary fortress rush? I dont play terran so mine wouldnt be optimal I've been meaning to add this... aaand done. Read Plexa's thread though, it's kind of important.
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Could you add the mass ling infestor +1 attack and +1 armor for zerg? thanks.
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very very cool stuff OP
thank you a lot when you're a n00b the hardest thing is to start a game and not getting behind because of a weak opening
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Very helpful post. As a player just starting to learn the game it's very helpful to know not only some good opening options, but also what times you can expect certain units to hit your base. And seeing what the precursor unit and building timings are to units and pushes it gives a better idea of what to scout for other than just obvious early cheese.
The most common insights given to low league players are "always build harvesters, don't get supply blocked, focus on mechanics, and keep your money low by always building units or structures". All good general points and very important to do, but it seems like the most difficult things to do are 1) know what units to build when (easy to spend money building 'something', not as easy to know what to focus your funds on); 2) knowing when to move forward and 3) knowing timings when certain units of your opponent can be on the field (cloaked banshees, etc). And really, if you read one post about SC2 gameplay you'll know all the general tips (economy/macro/hotkeys). It's good to see some helpful content that falls between the very basics and discussion on high-level builds/games.
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I think it would be nice to have the timing of the expansion. for example in "reactor hellion expand". it would be nice to have @MM:SS OC lands at natural
So that if it doesnt land at that time you know somethings going on.
Great job by the way please keep it updated and rolling!
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Thanks for reminding me that these existed.
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Does anyone know the quickest a terran can get banshees to your base if you steal one of his gases? This would be a great help to us zergies.
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Wow this is a very informative thread. Thanks!
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On April 24 2011 09:10 ssartor wrote:
Does anyone know the quickest a terran can get banshees to your base if you steal one of his gases? This would be a great help to us zergies.
It's the same time as normal. They just won't have cloak. A gas steal doesn't even slow down Banshee builds. It just prevents cloak by about 1 minute game time if he doesn't add a 2nd gas. It delays it by less the quicker he takes his 2nd gas.
The gas steal stops Cloak, Thors, and Siege Tech. It does not stop Stim or Blue Flame.
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I just wanted to say that this is the most valuable thread in SC2 Strategy to me. Keep it up.
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GREAT thread! Saved me so much time in figuring out when the latest I can throw down an evo chamber or get ling speed, etc. Thanks ----
One addition: Nestea Spine crawler rush vs. FFE, the spines go down at 6:00
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Thank you this thread is really usefull to me
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OP has been updated. The Zerg Averages section now include Lair, Pit, and Hive timings.
Edit: also added 14pool/16hatch
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Thank you for keeping the OP current. After the D9D about deductive scouting knowing the all the timings for every match-up is critical. Someone should make like a timeline for each races builds, that would be immensely helpful for the deductive scouting theory.
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Thanks Op. Would be nice to get replay with the exact timing for each build order.
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This is such a great reference but I was wondering if there were any plans to update the Protoss section to reflect the longer warp gate research time?
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On July 01 2011 23:21 DurandaL917 wrote:
This is such a great reference but I was wondering if there were any plans to update the Protoss section to reflect the longer warp gate research time?
I've been meaning to do this for a while, but life keeps interrupting me. I hope to remedy that soon.
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Yeah this is very helpful.
I would appreciate the timing of a 6gate vs Terran.
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Wow, OK so I finally got off my ass and updated this thread to include the 1.3.3 changes. I've also removed some obsolete protoss builds (in the deprecated section), added two PvP 3 Gate builds, the PvT 2 Gate obs(incomplete) and the TvT 3 Reaper opening.
Edit: 2 Gate Obs Expand is now complete
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Can't thank wo1fwood enough for this thread! But I can try. Thank you very much. I'm surprised that liquidpedia doesn't have an entry for Forge FE • +1 attack +14 stalkers +4 sentries @9:30. I remember Artosis saying in SOTG that this heavy stalker play is becoming dominant in Korea. Prevalent may be a better word for it.
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On July 07 2011 03:05 Deadbread wrote:
Yeah this is very helpful.
I would appreciate the timing of a 6gate vs Terran.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=231896
That covers the build pretty well, but I'll look into some reps to see if there are any differences or major swings in timings.
EDIT: OK, looks like MC's version is a 3 gate » robo » forge + twilight » +3 gates. the timing is 10:50 for it all to be done. Aaand added the 6 gate.
On July 30 2011 07:48 TumbaStarcraft wrote:
Can't thank wo1fwood enough for this thread! But I can try. Thank you very much. I'm surprised that liquidpedia doesn't have an entry for Forge FE • +1 attack +14 stalkers +4 sentries @9:30. I remember Artosis saying in SOTG that this heavy stalker play is becoming dominant in Korea. Prevalent may be a better word for it.
♥'s man. I did this because TL.net has already helped me be so much better than when I started a year ago. I may actually be OK at this game now (maybe) because of this community.
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OP has been updated with the Marine/Raven/Banshee/Tank timing push vs. P.
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is it possible that you can make a PDF version of this? thank you.
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On August 01 2011 21:57 Codeskye wrote:
is it possible that you can make a PDF version of this? thank you.
Done.
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Very cool figuring out all those timings. I will def have a look @ this. thanks brah!
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Thanks so much, I'm commentating on youtube and this is a big help for that, and for my ladder too
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Looks good -- only thing is, has the 4gate section been updated for the latest patch?
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Thanks alot for the .PDF
Very good job indeed =D
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thanks op for this amazing thread
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«• The average Infestation Pit completes at ~15:00.»
Regarding the current metagame, I'm not that sure of this assertion :/ I tend to have BLs on 4 bases by the 15:00 mark now.
I think having the 2 bases roach speedling all in done quite a lot in ZvZ and PvZ in the timings would also help !
Thank you very much for all the hard work !
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United Arab Emirates874 Posts
Adding gas first timings will be really good too( for terran ). Since they have been getting more popular lately
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On August 03 2011 17:03 jnkw wrote:
Looks good -- only thing is, has the 4gate section been updated for the latest patch?
Yep. It only changed ~3 seconds. The major change is that you will scout it if he's going 4 gate. If you chronoboost your stalker, the timing is delayed 10 sec.
On August 03 2011 19:24 mr_tolkien wrote:
«• The average Infestation Pit completes at ~15:00.»
Regarding the current metagame, I'm not that sure of this assertion :/ I tend to have BLs on 4 bases by the 15:00 mark now.
I think having the 2 bases roach speedling all in done quite a lot in ZvZ and PvZ in the timings would also help !
Thank you very much for all the hard work !
I know the PvZ timing, but not the ZvZ...oh wait, do you mean This?. Also yea, with the usage to infestors going wayy up recently I would imagine that this timing has changed a bit. I still need to weed through MLG Columbus and add those timings in, or scrap the old ones if they're very different. Thanks for keeping me up to date.
On August 03 2011 22:29 ticktack wrote:
Adding gas first timings will be really good too( for terran ). Since they have been getting more popular lately
If you mean for the recent blu flame hellion play, it's already gas first. The factroy goes down about 3:12 If you delay your first marine it could be about ~-6-8s faster.
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United Arab Emirates874 Posts
On August 03 2011 22:56 wo1fwood wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 17:03 jnkw wrote:
Looks good -- only thing is, has the 4gate section been updated for the latest patch? Yep. It only changed ~3 seconds. The major change is that you will scout it if he's going 4 gate. If you chronoboost your stalker, the timing is delayed 10 sec. Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 19:24 mr_tolkien wrote:
«• The average Infestation Pit completes at ~15:00.»
Regarding the current metagame, I'm not that sure of this assertion :/ I tend to have BLs on 4 bases by the 15:00 mark now.
I think having the 2 bases roach speedling all in done quite a lot in ZvZ and PvZ in the timings would also help !
Thank you very much for all the hard work ! I know the PvZ timing, but not the ZvZ...oh wait, do you mean This?. Also yea, with the usage to infestors going wayy up recently I would imagine that this timing has changed a bit. I still need to weed through MLG Columbus and add those timings in, or scrap the old ones if they're very different. Thanks for keeping me up to date. Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 22:29 ticktack wrote:
Adding gas first timings will be really good too( for terran ). Since they have been getting more popular lately If you mean for the recent blu flame hellion play, it's already gas first. The factroy goes down about 3:12 If you delay your first marine it could be about ~-6-8s faster.
Ah ok. Gas First banshees comes out 20 seconds earlier. Might want to add that?
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On August 03 2011 23:00 ticktack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 22:56 wo1fwood wrote:On August 03 2011 17:03 jnkw wrote:
Looks good -- only thing is, has the 4gate section been updated for the latest patch? Yep. It only changed ~3 seconds. The major change is that you will scout it if he's going 4 gate. If you chronoboost your stalker, the timing is delayed 10 sec. On August 03 2011 19:24 mr_tolkien wrote:
«• The average Infestation Pit completes at ~15:00.»
Regarding the current metagame, I'm not that sure of this assertion :/ I tend to have BLs on 4 bases by the 15:00 mark now.
I think having the 2 bases roach speedling all in done quite a lot in ZvZ and PvZ in the timings would also help !
Thank you very much for all the hard work ! I know the PvZ timing, but not the ZvZ...oh wait, do you mean This?. Also yea, with the usage to infestors going wayy up recently I would imagine that this timing has changed a bit. I still need to weed through MLG Columbus and add those timings in, or scrap the old ones if they're very different. Thanks for keeping me up to date. On August 03 2011 22:29 ticktack wrote:
Adding gas first timings will be really good too( for terran ). Since they have been getting more popular lately If you mean for the recent blu flame hellion play, it's already gas first. The factroy goes down about 3:12 If you delay your first marine it could be about ~-6-8s faster. Ah ok. Gas First banshees comes out 20 seconds earlier. Might want to add that?
If you skip cloak and go banshee first, then yes it's about 20s earlier. I'll probably just and a note in there.
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This is great! Thanks wo1fwood!
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Very nice resource, thanks for doing this.
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I just updated the thread with the 2 base ghost push TvP, and two roach speedling openings.
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Average zerg timings have been updated for the current metagame.
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United States8476 Posts
The MC 3 gate PvP timing is wrong. You get 1 zealot 4 stalkers 2 sentry at 6:10 for his standard build.
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On August 08 2011 06:20 4kmonk wrote:
The MC 3 gate PvP timing is wrong. You get 1 zealot 4 stalkers 2 sentry at 6:10 for his standard build. Yes you are correct in that you will have 1z 4st 2snt at 6:10, however MC has 1z 4st 1snt before that point. I thought that was somewhat important due to the fact that it's 16s earlier, though thanks for pointing that out, I'll tag on the other sentry, like I was supposed to.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 08 2011 06:42 wo1fwood wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 06:20 4kmonk wrote:
The MC 3 gate PvP timing is wrong. You get 1 zealot 4 stalkers 2 sentry at 6:10 for his standard build. Yes you are correct in that you will have 1z 4st 2snt at 6:10, however MC has 1z 4st 1snt before that point. I thought that was somewhat important due to the fact that it's 16s earlier, though thanks for pointing that out, I'll tag on the other sentry, like I was supposed to.
The replay that you watched is actually a different version of MC's standard 3 gate build. If you watch all the other replays I have in my thread, you'll see that MC more consistently does a slightly different version which has 1 zealot 2 stalker 2 sentry at 5:45 and warps in 2 more stalkers at 6:10.
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On August 09 2011 03:31 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 06:42 wo1fwood wrote:On August 08 2011 06:20 4kmonk wrote:
The MC 3 gate PvP timing is wrong. You get 1 zealot 4 stalkers 2 sentry at 6:10 for his standard build. Yes you are correct in that you will have 1z 4st 2snt at 6:10, however MC has 1z 4st 1snt before that point. I thought that was somewhat important due to the fact that it's 16s earlier, though thanks for pointing that out, I'll tag on the other sentry, like I was supposed to. The replay that you watched is actually a different version of MC's standard 3 gate build. If you watch all the other replays I have in my thread, you'll see that MC more consistently does a slightly different version which has 1 zealot 2 stalker 2 sentry at 5:45 and warps in 2 more stalkers at 6:10.
Thanks for the help. As per our conversation, I updated the ordering and will add your variant alongside the more economic one (see thread).
--
The 2 Sentry Gate expand vs Z has also been added.
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Hey, OP, this is freaking spectacular. Love it.
-Cross
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OK, so to add to the plethora of updates recently, I just finished adding the DT expand builds for PvT and PvZ.
Edit: And added the 2 Gate Stargate PvT.
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Sweet, this is some cool info
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This is seriously one of the best threads on this forum board. Nice job.
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Great thread.
Was wondering if you'd be interested in either making a second thread, or extending this thread to include 'gamestate-less' timings (made-up phrase, don't know if this type of timing has a proper name already). That'd be awesome
Timings that work no matter the state of the game, ones like in your 'general' timings for each race
E.G The one you stated where it takes ~3:15 from gas being placed to ling speed. It doesn't matter if the zerg went 14/14, hatch first or whatever, that timing applies whatever the scenario.
Or the timing that from the robo being placed, it takes ~3:00 for the first colossus to pop
One I use often, if you start a robo bay and forge at the same time, +1 and thermal lance will finish at the same time
I find timings like these extremely useful for mid/late game or 'crazy' situations where something like a 6pool happened, so all your specific build order timings are thrown off. These can be used to setup a timing attack regardless of the situation
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I would like to thank you so much for this thread. It really helps me improve!
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put this in liquipedia....NOW!
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Very nice work indeed. Thank you for sharing this information.
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Thank you, I was looking for a guide like this.
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Yeah, I would like if we added more relative timings such as 3:15 from Extractor down to Metabolic Boost finish.
Other Zerg ones:
From time Infestor Pit goes down, Infestors with energy for Fungal is 160 seconds or 2:40. Start of spire to Mutalisks is 113 or 1:53 ~2 min. From time Hive starts, fastest possible Brood Lord is 284 seconds or 4:34, so realistically 4:45ish. For Protoss buddies, from the time Lair starts, the fastest Roach Burrow with Speed push is 190s or 3:10.
I think relative timings are wayyyyy more useful 9/10 against Zerg and for everyone after 9 minutes.
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On August 31 2011 02:38 Sleight wrote:
Yeah, I would like if we added more relative timings such as 3:15 from Extractor down to Metabolic Boost finish.
Other Zerg ones:
From time Infestor Pit goes down, Infestors with energy for Fungal is 160 seconds or 2:40. Start of spire to Mutalisks is 113 or 1:53 ~2 min. From time Hive starts, fastest possible Brood Lord is 284 seconds or 4:34, so realistically 4:45ish. For Protoss buddies, from the time Lair starts, the fastest Roach Burrow with Speed push is 190s or 3:10.
I think relative timings are wayyyyy more useful 9/10 against Zerg and for everyone after 9 minutes.
tyty. Please let me know of others that I may have missed. I have updated each of the general sections to add these timings such as the ones mentioned above.
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This is awesome work. Thank you very much.
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So helpful thank you just what I needed!
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This is pretty awesome :D
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awesome post! this will really help my game out....
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I just finished updating the Terran section with the patch 1.4 updates, hooray!
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Thanks for your work wo1fwood
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Very good thread, thank you
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Very nice. Thank you very much!
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I find this topic very helpful, but I am little confuse with some things I mean with some of your sentences..
"It takes ~3:33 from starting a Lair to having mutas on the field (~3:40 for corruptors)."
Does this means when you start making Lair or when it finishes - than it takes 3:33 to have mutas out? I mean Starting making or after Lair starts enabling other techs..
Confused here too:
"transition to lair
• lair @6:45
"
You mean it finishes at 6:45 or you start lair at 6:45? Ok I assume it's finishes lair at 6:45.. So that would mean if you add: "It takes ~3:33 from starting a Lair to having mutas on the field (~3:40 for corruptors).".. Than this means you will have mutas on filed at:
10:25 minutes? Am I correct. That makes sense.
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On November 04 2011 00:38 whereismymind wrote:I find this topic very helpful, but I am little confuse with some things I mean with some of your sentences.. "It takes ~3:33 from starting a Lair to having mutas on the field (~3:40 for corruptors)." Does this means when you start making Lair or when it finishes - than it takes 3:33 to have mutas out? I mean Starting making or after Lair starts enabling other techs.. Confused here too: "transition to lair • lair @6:45 " You mean it finishes at 6:45 or you start lair at 6:45? Ok I assume it's finishes lair at 6:45.. So that would mean if you add: "It takes ~3:33 from starting a Lair to having mutas on the field (~3:40 for corruptors).".. Than this means you will have mutas on filed at: 10:25 minutes? Am I correct. That makes sense.
I thought the first part is pretty self evident... Yes that is the amount of time from when you hit the L key to begin your lair, to the time you can have a single muta or corruptor pop.
As for the second part, that time is when the lair completes, or any of the tech/upgrades. Maybe it's the 'transition to' part that's tripping you up. Also remember with regards to those 'fastest' timings, the note I put in red is super important to heed. For example, have you ever seen a greater spire at the 11:00 mark in a tournament game? Yea, neither have I, that's why the averages section is more important.
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This is awesome, thanks for the hard work wo1fwood!
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Going to bump this because of some recent discussion about build timings.
Also, it's a very helpful PDF for my build refinements.
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Bleh. Apparently a ZvZ build I was working on won't work vs a quicker baneling bust than I am used to =/
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I just wanted to shout out how great of a resource this thread is, and say thank you for making it and maintaining it!
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Don't know how I have not seen this thread before today.
Great post which deserves a bit more attention.
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I've looked for a post like this before, but couldn't find one. Thanks for the bump! Thanks for the OP
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did anyone some testing on protoss ffe timings? and nexus first timings against Z and T?
the zealot/stalker/stargate/warp prism timings would be interesting and how they vary with worker count. i mean if i build 12 forge or 15 forge and so on.
i might be testing it after christmas. just wondered if anyone already did it since ffe and nexus first become more and more popular.
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On December 24 2011 15:29 Feos wrote:
did anyone some testing on protoss ffe timings? and nexus first timings against Z and T?
the zealot/stalker/stargate/warp prism timings would be interesting and how they vary with worker count. i mean if i build 12 forge or 15 forge and so on.
i might be testing it after christmas. just wondered if anyone already did it since ffe and nexus first become more and more popular.
I just updated the FFE and Nexus first timings, so that should take care of it.
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Thanks so much for this thread man and also for the update, love ya <3
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Actually i was looking for Average Timings and somehow landed here. Now i've collected a lot of Data from this and another thread and made three PDF files, one for each race of course, in which i've re-arranged the Timings and Stuff and made some comments and guesses, with the goal to have a beginner friendly PRINTABLE! Version of the Timings. Maybe there are some Mistakes and most likely some Timings will be too much, but i'm sure everywhere is space to improve and i'd never finish looking for it so here it is:
Let me share these Files with you, you can do whatever you like, but if i may have one suggest, pls share it if you think your improvements have been worth it. Thx for reading, i hope you share improve and enjoy it!
[url blocked]
I've addee the original Files which i've edited in LibreOffice so they are in odt Format, feel free to Edit and Share!
Download - LibreOffice
__________________________________________________
@Edit: missed some Formattings, just fixed that --> V2
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Incredible thread. Gonna bookmark this.
A map guide with walking distances between entrances/chokes/ramps to main/nat would complement this well.
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Someone already made a thread on this, but I do think it's a good idea so I put it in the references section.
http://a176.imgur.com/
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I'm unsure about that Infestation Pit timing. Is it timed considering a zerg who goes muta then infestor just for hive, or for a user who uses ling/infestor as their composition?
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This'll be very helpful for me when i go random as i suck with terran :3 thx
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This'll be very helpful for me when i go random as i suck with terran :3
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I just added nAni's 2 gate Blink/Obs PvP build to the list.
On January 15 2012 01:23 Tobberoth wrote:
I'm unsure about that Infestation Pit timing. Is it timed considering a zerg who goes muta then infestor just for hive, or for a user who uses ling/infestor as their composition?
It's been a while, but I seem to remember that they didn't actually differ by very much back then. I'm going to say that this has likely changed though as the last update was a while ago.
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are these all up to date timings? with the new patch?
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On January 27 2012 22:17 kc wrote:
are these all up to date timings? with the new patch? Aside from the Zerg averages which have likely changed due to metagame shifts, yes (i need to collect more data before I change those). I also just added the PvZ 7gate immortal/warp prism timing.
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up to date or not, thanks for the nice work! good thread!
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I just updated it with the PvT sentry/immortal push that Puzzle has been doing for a little while now.
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wow, nice work, I need to memorize some of these..... (-_-)
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Wow this is amazing, I've been looking for something similar for ages (as I assumed it must exist somewhere), thanks very much for the hard work :D
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Sitting down at work and just saw this post.. all i can really say is... Awesome.. my problem is losing to a lot of timings and i just cannot understand when they are about to come... this will deffinetly give me some idea of my game play and will learn to adjust well from now on..
Thank you +1 from me :D
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OK, finally got around to updating the Zerg Averages so they should be at least more accurate than they were previously. I currently don't have nearly enough data to say they are really %100 accurate, but I will continually add to this when I can.
I've also updated the T section with MMA's banshee pvt and the more recent hellion marauder push vs. Z. The PDF should be up to date soon as well.
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Thank you this is very helpful for many reasons. It is a comprehensive lists of solid builds that I can do and it provides me with scouting information. Thanks!
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Just added the 2 base 3 colossus push Squirtle was doing at IPL. Have MLG reps to, will be working on adding in averages soon.
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I just wanted to make a quick note that in preparation for the incoming HotS beta, this thread has been renamed from "Basic" to "WoL". Once HotS is released, this thread will no longer be updated.
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I like that two base 3 colossi build from Squirtle I will definitely try it out.
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I finally got time this weekend to go through some replay packs, including IPL4 and MLG Columbus. They have been added into the Zerg Averages section.
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One thing im wondering about is the following lines:
• It Takes ~2:35 From Starting A Twilight Council To Having Dark Templar In Play.
Since Twilight Council doesnt make any DTs i assume they mean it takes ~2:35 to make both Twilight Council and a Templar Archives and a DT? or what do you mean?
And then this line:
• If You Begin A Twilight Council When +1 Is ~%66 (110/160) Complete, You Will Be Able To Begin +2 When Twilight Council Finishes.
When +1 what? i assume you mean +1 Ground Weapon, it's very uncertain what you mean for the new players that havent been around for long.
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On October 27 2012 21:23 MidnightZL wrote:
One thing im wondering about is the following lines:
• It Takes ~2:35 From Starting A Twilight Council To Having Dark Templar In Play.
Since Twilight Council doesnt make any DTs i assume they mean it takes ~2:35 to make both Twilight Council and a Templar Archives and a DT? or what do you mean?
And then this line:
• If You Begin A Twilight Council When +1 Is ~%66 (110/160) Complete, You Will Be Able To Begin +2 When Twilight Council Finishes.
When +1 what? i assume you mean +1 Ground Weapon, it's very uncertain what you mean for the new players that havent been around for long.
All +1 forge upgrades take the same amount of time.
2:35 until you can build your first DT from the combined build times of Twilight Council and Dark Shrine.
If you're not familiar with the used terms you'd better start off here:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Units
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2.1 Protoss General
• A 10 gate completes @2:30.
• A 13 gate completes @2:48.
u sure about that...?
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Hi OP, could you kindly update this thread for new timings if possible? Thank you for your hard work.
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• From the time a Hive begins to having brood lords in play is ~3:54 (assumes you have made corruptors before greater spire completes and have a spire before hive completes).
• It takes ~3:40 from starting a Hive to having ultralisks in play.
This is interesting... I always thought Broods would take a far longer time to have out than Ultras.
Most casters point this out a lot, at least.
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The time between putting down a twilight council to having Templar with storm is ~2:40 (1:50 w/ constant chrono(5))
That one sounds wrong. Twilight council is 50s, templar archives is 50s, then storm is 110s but can be cut to 60s with 5 chronos. So that's actually 2:40 w/ constant chronos (5), and 3:30 without chronos.
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 27 2012 23:48 IIIOmegaIII wrote:
2.1 Protoss General
• A 10 gate completes @2:30.
• A 13 gate completes @2:48.
u sure about that...?
Yep that's correct.
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lol, I have half of that right. Templar+storm is 2:40 with chrono, 3:30 without. Will fix.
Also with the more recent timings, I haven't really had time of my own as I'm working on a lot of different projects atm. I'll try to get to them when I can, but suggestions could be helpful (3 hatch no gas for zerg, T 3cc hellion banshee, fast 3 nex) Or if anyone who wants to do some investigative work for the timings is welcome to as long as you know they are optimal/provide reps showing them.
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Is there something like this adapted for hots?
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EPT
