Hi fellow protoss brothers, I am decently ranked protoss player on EU server. If you watch GSL as I do, you might have seen very interesting immortal build from Slayers_Puzzle against oGs_SuperNova in ro16. It felt like it's very safe build with fast observer. I personally really like immortals so i decided to show you guys this b/o. It's my first guide so I hope it's not that bad for first timer. So here it is:
Build order First two chronoboosts on nexus 9pylon 12 gateway -> scout 14 gas 16 pylon 17 cybercore 18 gas @100% cybercore -> start warpgate + stalker (chrono both) 23 pylon @100% stalker -> sentry 27 robotic facility @100% sentry -> second sentry 31 second gateway 32 pylon @100% robotic -> observer (chrono) when finished scout that evil terran 34 nexus (stop probe production) 34 pylon 34 immortal (chrono) 38 2 sentries (warpgate should be finished) 42 gateway 42 second immortal (chrono) 46 zealot + sentry 50 pylon (nexus finishes) 50 third immortal and proxy pylon 54 restart probe production (in main leave 18 probes on minerals and 6 on gas, rest transfer to natural expansion and change waypoints from nexus to natural) 56 2 stalkers sentry
Next warp in 2 zealots and sentry (chrono gateways), pylon right in front terran base so you can warp in reinfocement into battlefield)and then 2 stalkers and zealot (don't forget pylons and if you don't have resources cut probes)
Alt+tab to windows, play this song
and CHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGE!!!!!
Dont forget! Zealots in the front. Guardian shield (it should cover mainly your zealots, duh) Use forcefields so he cant repair bunkers and you should try to split his army (should be easy, you gonna have plenty of energy on sentries) Focus immortals on bunkers Dont forget to warp in units asap and keep making probes and pylons
Follow up If your attack was successfull, terran is dead or you forced lift up of expansion and evac. If he is not dead, kill everything you can in his natural and use your observer to destroy high ground units and buildings. Dont force it to his ramp if you are not 100% sure you can kill him. At this point you can occupy his natural for a while. Make two additional gateways, take third and fourth gas and make robo bay. Now its time to go back and defend. You should be ahead by a huge amout. Usually when I'm backing up i leave a probe near his base to see if he is going to attack and I scout every expansion on the map with two stalkers. At this point if he is going to attack you should be able to kill him and if he doesnt, wait for 3 collosus with thermal lance and go finish him off.
React to what you see with your observer You should see expansion by the time your observer arrives to terran base. If you see he is doing 1/1/1 you should continue how you would normally deal with 1/1/1. Check if he is getting cloak (if yes make second observer) and you can go one base colosus (works pretty well, seen it on Artosis stream) or go immortal zealot with as few stalkers to deal with banshee as possible. It really depends on variant of 1/1/1 (is he getting medivacs, is he going for helion drops etc).
Probe scout What are you looking for with your probe. If he has no gas its usually gasless expand. This means you should have no problem. If you see gas, you can expect some marauder pressure or reaper. Leave your probe in front terran base to scout any early attack. If he faked gasless expand and instead went for marine scv allin you should chrono units from gateway and you should cancel robo. It should not be difficult to hold if you force field or pull probes.
Thanks for reading my guide and I hope you gonna give me some feedback. There are not many decent terrans on EU (or at least i am not matched against them) so I don't have this build mapped out yet. If you have any experience with this build, please share it with us. I would like to make more guides on builds I see in GSL so tell me if you like this guide or what should I change. Next build I have in mind is Genius vs DRG (pvz) on Bel'Shir Beach. I think it's really safe and powerful opening for macro protoss that don't want to do two base allins or die to muta harass.
I would like to have more replays, would be nice if you could add more. Pretty nice guide. Why did your build orders were soe diffrent on these 2 games, no zealots, later nexus etc. was this somthing what you scouted what made you react this way or were you just trying little changes to build.
Cool. I've been using this style with good success since seeing in at MLG Providence. Some notes:
* Against gasless expand Puzzle will usually expand before robo and delay an attack till he has 6 gates and 2 immortals. * Against 2 or more rax pressure you should cancel your observer and get immortal first asap to defend expansion. * This push works best against 2-3 rax into factory from terran. It's quite risky against 4+ rax and downright loses to fast ghosts. * A good follow up is to drop 2 forges when attacking.
On February 05 2012 05:41 Roynalf wrote: I would like to have more replays, would be nice if you could add more. Pretty nice guide. Why did your build orders were soe diffrent on these 2 games, no zealots, later nexus etc. was this somthing what you scouted what made you react this way or were you just trying little changes to build.
Keep making guides
I wanted to write this guide mainly for myself, because I did this build how I remembered it from VOD, but i didnt have it written down exactly to every point. So that's why it can be slightly different. But even if it is variation I think the replays are still useful to see where you want to get and how to execute the attack if you don't have GSL ticket. I will add more replays if I get to play against terran.
On February 05 2012 05:42 habermas wrote: Cool. I've been using this style with good success since seeing in at MLG Providence. Some notes:
* Against gasless expand Puzzle will usually expand before robo and delay an attack till he has 6 gates and 2 immortals. * Against 2 or more rax pressure you should cancel your observer and get immortal first asap to defend expansion. * This push works best against 2-3 rax into factory from terran. It's quite risky against 4+ rax and downright loses to fast ghosts. * A good follow up is to drop 2 forges when attacking.
Can you show me some vs ghosts replay? I think that if you scout ghosts you just tech up to collosus and you should easily win? But I don't know, never seen anybody rush ghosts on ladder so I have no experience
I just have a question regarding those replays...who is actually playing Protoss? Is it Puzzle using Cellas NA account? I didn't watch MLG providence so I'm noob and don't know T.T
I do this build on the smaller maps in the map pool where I don't feel completely confident with 1 gate FE (or the FE would be so late I don't like it). Good maps for this are xel naga, metalopolis and shattered temple. I change a few things around though: - I don't probe scout at all or do it very late. With this build there is just not really a use to it, you'll be going quick robo anyway so the obs will tell you what's up and you want the sentries + immortal regardless of what happens basically. No scouting let's you get the gas a fair bit quicker which means you can get the robo before the sentry, quite a bit faster. The stalker pokes out a bit to scout for odd things coming in like a marine all-in which you should be able to handle with the sentries coming out asap. I make a zealot while cyber is building by the way. - I tend to expo with 1 gate, and then put down 2 more. Obs first or immortal first depends on what the stalker see's basically, usually it's immortal first as that allows me to defend the expo against 2 rax pressure pretty well. - Against 1 base tech builds it's nice to do some quick immortal-stalker pressure on their wall-in. Simply go 1 immortal then 1 obs or vice-versa and then pressure but don't make a proxy pylon or make an obscure one. With the immortal and a few stalkers you can easily snipe 1 or 2 depot's in his wall and then just back off while being completely safe because of your sentries. This tends to delay a 1-1-1 quite nicely while you counter with your preferred unit combo (not sure if fast colo or just zealot-stalker-immo is best, might be fast colo with this build as you can actually get them out really quickly but it sure isn't as easy as Artosis makes it sound).
On February 05 2012 05:41 Roynalf wrote: I would like to have more replays, would be nice if you could add more. Pretty nice guide. Why did your build orders were soe diffrent on these 2 games, no zealots, later nexus etc. was this somthing what you scouted what made you react this way or were you just trying little changes to build.
Keep making guides
I wanted to write this guide mainly for myself, because I did this build how I remembered it from VOD, but i didnt have it written down exactly to every point. So that's why it can be slightly different. But even if it is variation I think the replays are still useful to see where you want to get and how to execute the attack if you don't have GSL ticket. I will add more replays if I get to play against terran.
On February 05 2012 05:42 habermas wrote: Cool. I've been using this style with good success since seeing in at MLG Providence. Some notes:
* Against gasless expand Puzzle will usually expand before robo and delay an attack till he has 6 gates and 2 immortals. * Against 2 or more rax pressure you should cancel your observer and get immortal first asap to defend expansion. * This push works best against 2-3 rax into factory from terran. It's quite risky against 4+ rax and downright loses to fast ghosts. * A good follow up is to drop 2 forges when attacking.
Can you show me some vs ghosts replay? I think that if you scout ghosts you just tech up to collosus and you should easily win? But I don't know, never seen anybody rush ghosts on ladder so I have no experience
Yeah I rarely see it too. It's not that the build is bad, as it's kind of standard, but you probably shouldn't do this push against no fast factory play.
On February 05 2012 07:20 ins(out)side wrote: @Habermas
I just have a question regarding those replays...who is actually playing Protoss? Is it Puzzle using Cellas NA account? I didn't watch MLG providence so I'm noob and don't know T.T
Yeah it's Puzzle on Cella's account against some random guys in the open bracket. You can see the games are not very close.
On February 05 2012 07:20 ins(out)side wrote: @Habermas
I just have a question regarding those replays...who is actually playing Protoss? Is it Puzzle using Cellas NA account? I didn't watch MLG providence so I'm noob and don't know T.T
Yup that's puzzle playing on Cellas account in the open bracket
Edit: sniped
In regards to the build I've been trying out 2gate robo openers for a long time since puzzle is my favorite player and it's really been his build of choice for as long he's been in the GSL. The flexibility to launch into super powerful attacks such as this one are why I love them and his style so much. Id strongly recommend anyone to at least just play around with robo openers in PvT once in a while.
Various thoughts about Immortal busts (master Protoss):
-3 Immortals, rather than just 2, makes a huge difference when trying to take down bunkers. This is why if you plan to do real bust (and not just pressure), you need to go gate robo or gate FE robo otherwise you can't get out 3 immortals in time (you want to hit a pre-medivac timing, so before 10 mins). You can't really do it with Gate FE Gate Gate Robo. Also you need to open 2 gas before you FE regardless of the opening. However, the gate FE robo opening is quite vulnerable to quite a few things, so you have to make sure there is no pressure coming. I suggest going for a gate robo build vs. gas openings.
-If they throw down a lot of bunkers, it is better to have a mostly stalkers rather than zealots. Also when throwing down FFs it's not just to prevent repair, but to completely wall-out any of his forces behind the bunkers. Your goal initially is to take down the bunkers, so isolate them from his army by making a complete wall behind the bunkers. This is why you go for heavier stalker composition rather than zealots, as his army behind the FFs will still be able to hit the zealots.
-You can do a 1-base version of the immortal bust, and it opens virtually identically (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=264470) except instead of the Nexus you throw down a forge and 3 more gates. This is actually a very strong counter to 2-rax into expand. Terran delays their expo by going 2-rax and doing no damage with it since you didn't expo and they can't go up your ramp. They also made marauders which will get eaten up by your immortal bust later. This 1-base version of the immortal bust is very hard to stop w/o ghosts, which the terran will very likely not have due to late expo and gas spent on marauders and bio upgrades.
-Both the 1 and 2 base versions is actually quite effective vs. 1/1/1, another big plus in my book.
edit: Oh and when you do the bust you want ~7 sentries. Make then as early as possible w/o stopping immortal production, then just warp in stalkers.
On February 05 2012 12:32 Stato wrote: what is a safe way of actually stopping this as a terran? other than getting ghosts ?
MASS bunkers, and heavy amounts of marines. It helps if you can work in a +1 weapons upgrade. I play both terran and protoss, and I've stopped it (three or four times out of a million lol) when I can squeeze an upgrade in and like 9 bunkers lol. Hitting the army when it's moving out is also helpful. If your opponent is careless, you can snipe a sentry or two while only losing marines. ALWAYS GO FOR THE SENTRIES.
On February 05 2012 12:32 Stato wrote: what is a safe way of actually stopping this as a terran? other than getting ghosts ?
A well executed flank w/ mass marines while focus firing down the Sentries would probably be the best solution outside of Ghosts. People might think it is the Immortals that are the problem but it is the Sentries that are the crutch of the build (for example a 6-Gate is hits a similar timing and is executed in a similar manner w/ lots of Sentries). The push completely relies on FFs keeping the main bulk of the Terran army out of the fight while they focus down the bunkers.
On February 05 2012 12:32 Stato wrote: what is a safe way of actually stopping this as a terran? other than getting ghosts ?
There's two ways I've found so far:
1. Go scare the crap out of them first. If you can put on enough pressure without throwing your stuff away, they'll actually just abandon the idea of doing a three immortal bust entirely a lot of the time.
2. Marine Banshee / Marine Banshee Siege: This doesn't sound like it should work, but a lot of the time's I've seen it it actually has (don't know about Masters though). If you can appropriately scout which gateway units he's relying a lot more heavily on, and the map/your positioning will allow you to set up two-ish siege tanks safely, that and micro'd banshees and just straight marines can sometimes just stop it. Rarely I've seen terrans actually just move out when they see the protoss does, and with a lot of micro handle it okay, or the terran moving out with thier banshees early and keeping them by the protoss and going in and killing all of the things while the protoss army is in the middle of the map. He either has to turn around or base trade, or warp in stalkers and hope it's enough (and it shouldn't be without him bringing his stalkers back home, and if he does he might realize he's behind and either attack, in which case you just send your banshees in again and again and again keeping his stalkers at home and finishing stim and raising your marine tank count, or bring them back and hope you have enough stuff with them). Either way if I'm thinking of the correct build, the toss isn't really teching while he's doing it, so any amount you can delay after he starts moving out that makes him stop or flat go back home is just pushing you towards a win. If he keeps pushing immortals out (not trying to bust anymore, just going for a "im gonna get 5-6 immortals and some gateway units and kill you", what I've seen done is that a terran will get ghosts really fast just to emp. If you can hit the immortals AND some sentries you just win.
Any feedback about the second one at highest levels if it totally just falls apart around Masters would be cool, it's just how I've been stopping it when I scout it and how I've seen it stopped.
I'm only diamond but I've been using variations on this build for the past 3 weeks. I first saw it executed by VileYong. He routinely does the 2gate-robo-expo version. I've seen Russano doing a 1gate-robo-FE that is able to hit with an equally scary push.
My FFing is improving using this build as it is a bit vulnerable to early heavy rine builds (1-rax-CC into 4rax rine). I really like having the option of grabbing a fast collosus if I scout the T going mass rine with multiple reactors while teching to medivac. But the earlier marine pressure that comes when I have 1 immortal and 2-4 sentries can be tricky.
I really don't know if 1-gate-robo-FE or gate-robo-gate-expo makes the most sense. I've searched for TL threads detailing 1 gate-robo-FEs and they are out of date/not that helpful.
Seeing as Puzzle is favoring the 2-gate version, I'll keep up with it for now.
On February 05 2012 13:48 skatbone wrote: I'm only diamond but I've been using variations on this build for the past 3 weeks. I first saw it executed by VileYong. He routinely does the 2gate-robo-expo version. I've seen Russano doing a 1gate-robo-FE that is able to hit with an equally scary push.
My FFing is improving using this build as it is a bit vulnerable to early heavy rine builds (1-rax-CC into 4rax rine). I really like having the option of grabbing a fast collosus if I scout the T going mass rine with multiple reactors while teching to medivac. But the earlier marine pressure that comes when I have 1 immortal and 2-4 sentries can be tricky.
I really don't know if 1-gate-robo-FE or gate-robo-gate-expo makes the most sense. I've searched for TL threads detailing 1 gate-robo-FEs and they are out of date/not that helpful.
Seeing as Puzzle is favoring the 2-gate version, I'll keep up with it for now.
It seemed to me Puzzle did the gate robo gate version when he scouted gas to be safe from 2/3-rax, and then did the gate FE robo version when he scouted no gas. At least that's what I noticed while watching his games the other day.
This build is a big problem. Bunkers are almost useless vs it. There's no time to get banshees or ghosts. Terran doesn't have anything at that stage of the game to deal with the century/immortal combination unless it was a part of their planned build like 1-1-1 or mass rin or early ghosts. TvP has been a mess of a MU for a long time, I'm sure it gives Blizzard many headaches.
On February 05 2012 14:30 mlspmatt wrote: This build is a big problem. Bunkers are almost useless vs it. There's no time to get banshees or ghosts. Terran doesn't have anything at that stage of the game to deal with the century/immortal combination unless it was a part of their planned build like 1-1-1 or mass rin or early ghosts. TvP has been a mess of a MU for a long time, I'm sure it gives Blizzard many headaches.
Definitely agree. PvZ/ZvP? Ehh its reasonably balanced, mostly map-dependent IMO. ZvT/TvZ? Fine, incredibly fun to play and watch. TvP/PvT? OMFG this matchup sucks, in terms of watching and playing from both sides. The win rates have swung back and forth so much in this matchup over the past year
EPT
