EPTOn February 08 2012 03:15 jupiter6 wrote:
if protoss isnt brain dead your scan will reveal nothing
if protoss isnt brain dead your scan will reveal nothing
If the protoss is telepathic, it will reveal nothing.
[G] PvT Immortal Push GSL Puzzle vs SuperNova - Page 4
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
If the protoss is telepathic, it will reveal nothing. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
I found out ( the hard way ) it's only a good idea in theory, but not so much in reality. It delays the timings a little bit, enough for Terran to have stim and/or his first medivacs. Worse, it makes reinforcing your attack at the front impossible, since you're warping in the main. Terran can just defend the attack at the natural while saving his scvs, and clean up the zealots in his main afterwards  Other than learning a drop prism doesn't work, I'm also slightly confused by the army compositions. Puzzle does it without zealots, he only warps tons of stalkers out of 6 gates. While doing the same, I realized that the range of sentries being 1 lower than the imms/stalkers, sentries easily go on the front and get snipped by the bunkers/marines/etc.. So before I'm able to reinforce, I already lost most of my sentries. How should you handle the positionning of sentries with that build ? Should they FF and somehow retreat ? Should you split your army in two groups ? Should you reinforce with more sentries, or with pure zealots to tank damage ? I also find that this build is a kill or be killed build. You're late on your upgrades/tech, most likely a bit behind in eco ( your chronos go into immortals/warp research and you must delay your expo a bit later, like near 6', compared to a faster 1 gate FE ), and your army is very immobile, so once you engage you can't retreat. I've lost a couple games because I was too shy and attempted to retreat my army when he brought all his scvs to tank, only to lose everything to stim/conc shells. Also, how do you handle marines pressure ? You only got a stalker, 3/4 sentries and possibly an immortal when the push arrives. The Terran will focus the sentries first, and they die so easily to marines that it'll weaken your later attack quite a bit. Should I cut his army in half and attempt to micro/save the sentries he focuses, or should I simply FF in front of his marines and prevent him from attacking at all, at the cost of energy ? Finally, what do you do against a Terran that goes quick medivacs drop ? The scenario happened to me yesterday: my imm/sentries/stalker army was half-way on the map when 2 medivacs full of rines/raudeurs dropped in my main. I could probably easily bust his natural, but I'd have no way to save my main even with 6 gates of warp, plus he snipped my pylons first so I'm quickly supply blocked. The base trade scenario would be unfavorable to me ( he has imba scvs to tank ! ), and coming back means 30s of party time in my main for him. It sounds like I'm fucked in both cases | ||
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Tanag
Canada204 Posts
For drops, you just need to be active with your observer. It should reach your opponents base before they have medivacs out. If you see a starport just be active with your obs and watch for signs of a drop. Don't move out if it appears your opponent has. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On February 09 2012 22:15 Nyast wrote: I've been playing with that build since it was posted here with moderate success, but I believe that's because my execution is flawed. I'm doing Puzzle's version with a small variant: once the 2-3 imms are done I queue up a prism, and time my attack so that I can warp zealots in Terran's main at the same time I attack the natural. I found out ( the hard way ) it's only a good idea in theory, but not so much in reality. It delays the timings a little bit, enough for Terran to have stim and/or his first medivacs. Worse, it makes reinforcing your attack at the front impossible, since you're warping in the main. Terran can just defend the attack at the natural while saving his scvs, and clean up the zealots in his main afterwards Other than learning a drop prism doesn't work, I'm also slightly confused by the army compositions. Puzzle does it without zealots, he only warps tons of stalkers out of 6 gates. While doing the same, I realized that the range of sentries being 1 lower than the imms/stalkers, sentries easily go on the front and get snipped by the bunkers/marines/etc.. So before I'm able to reinforce, I already lost most of my sentries. How should you handle the positionning of sentries with that build ? Should they FF and somehow retreat ? Should you split your army in two groups ? Should you reinforce with more sentries, or with pure zealots to tank damage ? I also find that this build is a kill or be killed build. You're late on your upgrades/tech, most likely a bit behind in eco ( your chronos go into immortals/warp research and you must delay your expo a bit later, like near 6', compared to a faster 1 gate FE ), and your army is very immobile, so once you engage you can't retreat. I've lost a couple games because I was too shy and attempted to retreat my army when he brought all his scvs to tank, only to lose everything to stim/conc shells. Also, how do you handle marines pressure ? You only got a stalker, 3/4 sentries and possibly an immortal when the push arrives. The Terran will focus the sentries first, and they die so easily to marines that it'll weaken your later attack quite a bit. Should I cut his army in half and attempt to micro/save the sentries he focuses, or should I simply FF in front of his marines and prevent him from attacking at all, at the cost of energy ? Finally, what do you do against a Terran that goes quick medivacs drop ? The scenario happened to me yesterday: my imm/sentries/stalker army was half-way on the map when 2 medivacs full of rines/raudeurs dropped in my main. I could probably easily bust his natural, but I'd have no way to save my main even with 6 gates of warp, plus he snipped my pylons first so I'm quickly supply blocked. The base trade scenario would be unfavorable to me ( he has imba scvs to tank ! ), and coming back means 30s of party time in my main for him. It sounds like I'm fucked in both cases -Puzzle didn't make zealots because of the high # of bunkers. The trick to busting a high amount of bunkers is FF'ing his main army behind his bunkers away (which also keeps SCVs from repairing) and focusing down the bunkers 1 by 1 with ranged units. Then when the bunkers are gone you can go back and mix in more zealots to deal with his actual army. -I didn't rewatch Puzzle's games but IIRC he still made a couple of zealots. Even when busting bunkers you want to make a few zealots simply to tank damage so your sentries don't die instantly. You only need a couple of zealots to tank since with 3 Immortals you can take down bunkers extremely fast. -Re: Marine pressure it's hard to say unless you post a replay. You don't reference any particular build or timing. It seems you are perhaps asking about something like a naked 4-rax pressure or something. -Re: Medivacs, if he dropping in your base your push is coming too slow. You should be hitting them before 10 mins generally. -Re: how "all-in" it is, If you go gate-robo-gate you get a late expo, and you also cut a lot of probes for the push, so you need to do a lot of damage, basically enough for you to catch up in econ. It's a much better "on the fly" type of build than a "standard" build so to speak, e.g. for instance you suspect early game pressure and go gate-robo-gate (which is one of the safest openers out there), but then later see you were duped or had a bad read and he expanded instead and he is now ahead in econ. In that scenario it makes a lot of sense to go for this type of bust to equalize the game economically or even outright win. So don't see it as an "all-in" build that you have to win with the bust itself because unless the Terran loses his entire army attempting to defend his natural it will be hard to bust up into his main. | ||
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R!!
Brazil938 Posts
I guess there's a reason MC has been doing those for as long as I can remember. | ||
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akaname
United Kingdom599 Posts
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herrmus
Sweden144 Posts
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On February 10 2012 09:17 herrmus wrote: How do you deal with 111 at high master level with this? replays appreciated. I just cant deal with 111 with this. Don't expand and transition into this build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=264470 | ||
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RRDjhonn
34 Posts
gasless open into 4 rax , destroy this? i had success only against 1-2 rax expand. 3 inmortal? i think that problem are not bunker but tons of rines , i like more 2 inmortal and more gates up. | ||
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ApocAlypsE007
Israel1007 Posts
How do you deal with Banshee, Raven, Marine, SCV all in? The all in comes at around 9 minutes, the same time this attack comes, and you can't just defend against 4-5 banshees with 5 sentries. A decent Terran will hide the all-in and all you see is a bunker until the Observer comes into their base @ around 7 minutes. Is Phoenix is the answer? A Stargate will be ready in about a minute and until the attack comes you will have 2 Phoenixes chronoboosted, and the build is tight so won't have the gas to pump Phoenixes out of 2 Stargates, and as the expansion is slow you won't be able to mount a good amounts of Gateway units and the Immortals you invested in are pretty useless against this composition. | ||
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Khaladas
United States223 Posts
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PantsSC2
United States17 Posts
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Treehead
999 Posts
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snively
United States1159 Posts
In any case, it looks really powerful. Would it work vs. zerg too, is my question. It sounds like it would deal very well vs. roach/ling right? edit: also at what time does the attack hit, on average? | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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EngrishTeacher
Canada1109 Posts
In TvP especially, I've faced this build numerous times to varying degrees of success. Since I always open 2 rax concussive marauders in TvP, I tend to do decent damage facing 1 gate into tech builds. My first marine will get FF'ed, but then I can kill at least 2 stalkers, a zealot, 5-6 probes, with my 3 + 2 marauders while expanding behind it at 33/35 supply. The problem is, even when I do get ahead, I have very little production in the form of 2 tech lab'ed barracks, and immortals are just so fucking good against marauders and bunkers. I've had to ninja scv scout the toss's natural, and if I don't see an expo after mine goes online I throw up 8 bunkers. Yes, EIGHT of them and that barely holds off a well-micro'ed immortal bust. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Aelfric
Turkey1496 Posts
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
On June 20 2012 11:06 EngrishTeacher wrote: I don't know what it is about Asians, but on the Chinese server I face a fuckton more all-ins than on the US server. In TvP especially, I've faced this build numerous times to varying degrees of success. Since I always open 2 rax concussive marauders in TvP, I tend to do decent damage facing 1 gate into tech builds. My first marine will get FF'ed, but then I can kill at least 2 stalkers, a zealot, 5-6 probes, with my 3 + 2 marauders while expanding behind it at 33/35 supply. The problem is, even when I do get ahead, I have very little production in the form of 2 tech lab'ed barracks, and immortals are just so fucking good against marauders and bunkers. I've had to ninja scv scout the toss's natural, and if I don't see an expo after mine goes online I throw up 8 bunkers. Yes, EIGHT of them and that barely holds off a well-micro'ed immortal bust. There is no need to be so racist mate. | ||
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EngrishTeacher
Canada1109 Posts
Dude, I'm mixed, half Asian. No racism intended at all, merely stating a trend that I've noticed on the SEA, China, and Korea servers in comparison to US and EU. On June 20 2012 11:51 Sated wrote: This isn't a 1 Base build. It expands at 34 food, you just don't produce many Probes after throwing it down. It could probably be classed as somewhat of an all-in since you really need to do some sort of damage for it to work, but it's not like it's a 1 Base 4 Gate Robo all-in or something like that. Bunkers don't really help. You attack the front ones and Forcefield the units that are in them. Kill the units. Move on to the next set of Bunkers. 8 Bunkers could be 16 Marines, which would help you more - you want to attack all at once, not from Bunkers. I don't think you're very familiar with 2-rax marauder timings, but 3 marauders + 1 marine ARRIVE at the protoss ramp at 5:20-5:35 depending on map distance, that's roughly at ~25 supply. Vs. protoss builds that stays on 1 gate for the very early game (this 1 gate into robo build included), I ALWAYS do decent damage. I didn't say this was a 1-base build, but for the duration of my 2-rax pressure, the protoss is on 1 base with 1 gate and 1 robo. And no, bunkers do help a ton. Since my expansion is up earlier than the toss's after the 2-rax pressure, plus the fact that I always score a few probe kills, the situation incites the toss to often all-in me in return with 3-4 gates + immortals. Even when I get stim right away with my next 100 gas and cut scvs at 33/35 for 2 more barracks, I cannot get out enough marines in time to defend so 6+ bunkers are my only real option to hold. And no, I don't get them in 2 rows, I get the bunkers in a concave so all marines would fire at the same time. | ||
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