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On February 05 2012 14:30 mlspmatt wrote:
This build is a big problem. Bunkers are almost useless vs it. There's no time to get banshees or ghosts. Terran doesn't have anything at that stage of the game to deal with the century/immortal combination unless it was a part of their planned build like 1-1-1 or mass rin or early ghosts. TvP has been a mess of a MU for a long time, I'm sure it gives Blizzard many headaches.
If they're doing the two base variety there is certainly time.
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MC's been doing pretty much the same build since MLG Orlando. One example is MC vs Puma game 2 on Dual Sight. I also think he did it game 3 vs TheStC (Dual Sight).
He usually does it with a 1 Gate FE (2 gas) although he'll go 2 Gate Robo if he scouts certain gas builds (2 Rax I think). He gets 6-9 sentry, ~6 zealot, 2-3 Immortal, and 4-5 Stalker. Then he attacks after warping a second round of stalkers with his 5 warpgates.
It's important to spread your army correctly and use hold position to keep your units out of range of the units trapped behind FFs.
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dragon just lost to welmu in gosc2 cup to this build, perfectly scouted had 3 bunkers and scv's ready to repair, didnt matter he just got rolled
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On February 06 2012 00:59 jupiter6 wrote:
dragon just lost to welmu in gosc2 cup to this build, perfectly scouted had 3 bunkers and scv's ready to repair, didnt matter he just got rolled
yeah, unless you already have ghosts, or banshees, or a mass rhine build, you're in trouble. Maybe 6-8 bunkers can hold it off, which is pretty ridiculous. It seems the build is just starting to catch on now, so give it a month before every protoss on the planet is using it, then another month for all the terrans to complain about it, then we'll see.
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I think part of the reason this is so succesful is that many terrans are teching too widespread and/or go too marauder heavy.
For example many terrans get quick ebay for +1, a turret and tech to dropship at the same time. Many terrans going 2 techlabs 1 reactor also happens alot which tends to result in too many marauders which is pretty awful against this too.
Without teching too greedy and having enough marines in the mix this attack can be stopped pretty well. Having enough units really is key, simply adding more bunkers doesn't work that well as they are not so great against this tactic. A bunker costs the same as 2 marines and only adds 400 armored hp that doesn't even fire. Also the way many people build bunkers they make it insanely easy for P to get perfect forcefields off as T has made himself immobile. FFing just behind the bunkers and attacking with a minimal amount of zealots makes this attack so strong because the T army is split up and does very little when the zealots are dead while the P usually has a perfect concave + tons of ff's to spare.
I like the build being so viable though, before I always hated to go robo before expand as I felt i was too far behind against any expand build from terran. The threat of immortal busts keeps terran's more honest though and they can't play as greedy. This is also just a good attack you can do reactively with any quick robo build which makes it even better.
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Me and my friends have been using immortal pushes like this since last summer. What I think terrans need to understand is as long as your build gets you enough sentries, you can push anywhere from 1-5 immortals and the proper way to handle each push depends on how many immortals there are, but universally I don't believe bunkers are the way to go.
No matter how many bunkers you build, you either will not have enough units or the player can just attack early and catch you before the bunkers are done or attack late when there are enough immortals that bunkers don't matter, since they'll have an obs out.
The key is just to have alot of units and not be afraid to lift and retreat up your ramp or to prepare before hand and flank the army so they can't just split your army into small chunks.
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This is just speculation, but, it seems that if the Protoss is going with at least 3 immortals, they're only going to have 1 observer. The observer is either going to be with the army or with the main, so it feels like you could go cloak banshee with a late expansion and the Protoss has to at least delay the push until they get a forge or a second observer out.
On the other hand, we may just see a return of Terrans going with really marine heavy styles in the opening, idk.
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It's nice to see this build order hashed out on TL.
I'm not sure about that nexus timing, I think it can be squeezed out earlier, or in the same vein I'd like to work this out from a nexus first, I feel like it should be pretty dirty.
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Italy12248 Posts
Puzzle's variation is off 2gate robo expand, in which the first immortal is started right after the nexus.
The reason for this is that the immortals come out a good deal faster than with a 1gate expand-->3gate-->robo opening. I guess 1gate fe into super fast robo is doable but that's pretty unsafe vs hellion drop and some variation of bio pressure, so you have to have a really good read to pull that off.
I have seen immortal busts off 1gate fe in GSL fail because they hit after stim and sometimes even medivacs are done, while Puzzle's variation is so strong because it comes so fast. It's also a good way to be aggressive with 2gate obs expand, which is a big reason why that build fell off.
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Insanely strong all-in/timing attack, and sadly very, very easy to execute. You need 6-8 bunkers to hold it, or pure marines. If you built any marauders you are in danger of losing.
It's just another all-in which is crazy...because you have to 100% randomly predict protoss is going to do this build early on in the game, because if you do not you will only have 2-3 bunkers and you lose. You also have to have made pure marines to hold it efficiently...and protoss can just react to that by simply not attacking...so...
1) You execute this build - you can outright kill Terran.
2) You see they react the only possible way they can (8 bunkers or mass marines) and you simply don't attack, take a third, and come out with a free advantage ...
It's so good makes me cry  lol. All protoss should add this to their arsenal though for obvious reasons, if I was protoss i would :D
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So basically, terran must react to seeing a robo with ghosts?
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On February 07 2012 19:38 avilo wrote:
You also have to have made pure marines to hold it efficiently...and protoss can just react to that by simply not attacking...so...
2) You see they react the only possible way they can (8 bunkers or mass marines) and you simply don't attack, take a third, and come out with a free advantage ...
I disagree with this. How you think that protoss has an advantage if he is going to attack (protoss has been making pretty earlt production facilities, making constant units and most likely chronoing gateways) but then decides not to? Do you think that protoss (or any other race) could just prepare for a strong push and then not execute it? If terran has been making a lot of marines, of course protoss is behind.
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On February 07 2012 20:08 cydial wrote:
So basically, terran must react to seeing a robo with ghosts?
Absolutely not. That would be just silly... (I guess this doesn't even require any arguments...)
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Italy12248 Posts
On February 07 2012 20:08 cydial wrote:
So basically, terran must react to seeing a robo with ghosts?
Robo, no. 2+ immortals and lots of sentries, probably.
I am not sure how the timings work out though, protoss might be able to hit before you get EMP. I hope that's not true, if so earlygame pvt gets even more coinflippy.
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/sigh
I hope nobody take offense when I say this...
Does anyone else feel that this matchup is super reactive to what the protoss is doing to the point that if you don't just HAPPEN to have the perfect unit comp as in ghosts for templar or in this case immortal or the right number of vikings you're dead?
Lately I've been playing protoss and it feels like I'm always in control of the game unless the terran does some all in involing most of not all their scvs.
Perhaps the next great terran strat will be something that involves mass ghost as seen in one of the IPL games (I forget which one).
However, right now it's just downright silly how strong protoss early pushes are against a macro style terran....
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Italy12248 Posts
It goes halfway. If Protoss makes a bad read in the early game (tech vs expo for example) he's in trouble; if he misses a ghost timing and is being a bit too greedy (with double forge or whatever) he's in trouble, etc etc.
I definitely agree it's too volatile and unforgiving, and often times early game feels like a coinflip.
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Terran has always had some problems defending a immortal push I think what people have said about needing more marines instead of marauders is correct. I personally have never thought of marauders as a good unit vs most toss unit comps and this is just one more reason not to make them. Also I do think that bunkers are fairly useless vs this push as they add no extra damage and that is what you really need to hold the push not extra hitpoints. Basically the toss is hitting the terran with the most and best units they can produce by that time so really the terran will need to also have the most and best units to defend. When you factor in that warpgates allows for the whole toss army to be in the fight it's really not a good idea to try and skimp on units vs this build.
I might sound crazy for saying this but I think unsieged tanks might be part of the answer as they have the range to not get instantly focused and actually do amazing damage vs stalkers and immortals (after their shields are gone). They can also be mass repaired so having like 2 siege tanks and marines behind a bunker with a ton of scv's repairing should be able to fend this off I would hope. Also if you do manage to fend this push off you want to be thinking about how you can best punish the toss for having "tossed" their whole army at you. Siege tanks would be pretty handy for trying to return the favor at their expo.
One thing I thought about when defending this build is that if your still inside your base if your bunker is far enough back the protoss army wont be able to get a conclave as they will have to come up your ramp a bit. Not that it helps any if your doing a fe build but I have personally never liked fast expanding vs protoss.
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EPT
