Hi fellow protoss brothers, I am decently ranked protoss player on EU server. If you watch GSL as I do, you might have seen very interesting immortal build from Slayers_Puzzle against oGs_SuperNova in ro16. It felt like it's very safe build with fast observer. I personally really like immortals so i decided to show you guys this b/o. It's my first guide so I hope it's not that bad for first timer. So here it is:
Build order First two chronoboosts on nexus 9pylon 12 gateway -> scout 14 gas 16 pylon 17 cybercore 18 gas @100% cybercore -> start warpgate + stalker (chrono both) 23 pylon @100% stalker -> sentry 27 robotic facility @100% sentry -> second sentry 31 second gateway 32 pylon @100% robotic -> observer (chrono) when finished scout that evil terran 34 nexus (stop probe production) 34 pylon 34 immortal (chrono) 38 2 sentries (warpgate should be finished) 42 gateway 42 second immortal (chrono) 46 zealot + sentry 50 pylon (nexus finishes) 50 third immortal and proxy pylon 54 restart probe production (in main leave 18 probes on minerals and 6 on gas, rest transfer to natural expansion and change waypoints from nexus to natural) 56 2 stalkers sentry
Next warp in 2 zealots and sentry (chrono gateways), pylon right in front terran base so you can warp in reinfocement into battlefield)and then 2 stalkers and zealot (don't forget pylons and if you don't have resources cut probes)
Alt+tab to windows, play this song
and CHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGE!!!!!
Dont forget! Zealots in the front. Guardian shield (it should cover mainly your zealots, duh) Use forcefields so he cant repair bunkers and you should try to split his army (should be easy, you gonna have plenty of energy on sentries) Focus immortals on bunkers Dont forget to warp in units asap and keep making probes and pylons
Follow up If your attack was successfull, terran is dead or you forced lift up of expansion and evac. If he is not dead, kill everything you can in his natural and use your observer to destroy high ground units and buildings. Dont force it to his ramp if you are not 100% sure you can kill him. At this point you can occupy his natural for a while. Make two additional gateways, take third and fourth gas and make robo bay. Now its time to go back and defend. You should be ahead by a huge amout. Usually when I'm backing up i leave a probe near his base to see if he is going to attack and I scout every expansion on the map with two stalkers. At this point if he is going to attack you should be able to kill him and if he doesnt, wait for 3 collosus with thermal lance and go finish him off.
React to what you see with your observer You should see expansion by the time your observer arrives to terran base. If you see he is doing 1/1/1 you should continue how you would normally deal with 1/1/1. Check if he is getting cloak (if yes make second observer) and you can go one base colosus (works pretty well, seen it on Artosis stream) or go immortal zealot with as few stalkers to deal with banshee as possible. It really depends on variant of 1/1/1 (is he getting medivacs, is he going for helion drops etc).
Probe scout What are you looking for with your probe. If he has no gas its usually gasless expand. This means you should have no problem. If you see gas, you can expect some marauder pressure or reaper. Leave your probe in front terran base to scout any early attack. If he faked gasless expand and instead went for marine scv allin you should chrono units from gateway and you should cancel robo. It should not be difficult to hold if you force field or pull probes.
Thanks for reading my guide and I hope you gonna give me some feedback. There are not many decent terrans on EU (or at least i am not matched against them) so I don't have this build mapped out yet. If you have any experience with this build, please share it with us. I would like to make more guides on builds I see in GSL so tell me if you like this guide or what should I change. Next build I have in mind is Genius vs DRG (pvz) on Bel'Shir Beach. I think it's really safe and powerful opening for macro protoss that don't want to do two base allins or die to muta harass.
I would like to have more replays, would be nice if you could add more. Pretty nice guide. Why did your build orders were soe diffrent on these 2 games, no zealots, later nexus etc. was this somthing what you scouted what made you react this way or were you just trying little changes to build.
Cool. I've been using this style with good success since seeing in at MLG Providence. Some notes:
* Against gasless expand Puzzle will usually expand before robo and delay an attack till he has 6 gates and 2 immortals. * Against 2 or more rax pressure you should cancel your observer and get immortal first asap to defend expansion. * This push works best against 2-3 rax into factory from terran. It's quite risky against 4+ rax and downright loses to fast ghosts. * A good follow up is to drop 2 forges when attacking.
On February 05 2012 05:41 Roynalf wrote: I would like to have more replays, would be nice if you could add more. Pretty nice guide. Why did your build orders were soe diffrent on these 2 games, no zealots, later nexus etc. was this somthing what you scouted what made you react this way or were you just trying little changes to build.
Keep making guides
I wanted to write this guide mainly for myself, because I did this build how I remembered it from VOD, but i didnt have it written down exactly to every point. So that's why it can be slightly different. But even if it is variation I think the replays are still useful to see where you want to get and how to execute the attack if you don't have GSL ticket. I will add more replays if I get to play against terran.
On February 05 2012 05:42 habermas wrote: Cool. I've been using this style with good success since seeing in at MLG Providence. Some notes:
* Against gasless expand Puzzle will usually expand before robo and delay an attack till he has 6 gates and 2 immortals. * Against 2 or more rax pressure you should cancel your observer and get immortal first asap to defend expansion. * This push works best against 2-3 rax into factory from terran. It's quite risky against 4+ rax and downright loses to fast ghosts. * A good follow up is to drop 2 forges when attacking.
Can you show me some vs ghosts replay? I think that if you scout ghosts you just tech up to collosus and you should easily win? But I don't know, never seen anybody rush ghosts on ladder so I have no experience
I just have a question regarding those replays...who is actually playing Protoss? Is it Puzzle using Cellas NA account? I didn't watch MLG providence so I'm noob and don't know T.T
I do this build on the smaller maps in the map pool where I don't feel completely confident with 1 gate FE (or the FE would be so late I don't like it). Good maps for this are xel naga, metalopolis and shattered temple. I change a few things around though: - I don't probe scout at all or do it very late. With this build there is just not really a use to it, you'll be going quick robo anyway so the obs will tell you what's up and you want the sentries + immortal regardless of what happens basically. No scouting let's you get the gas a fair bit quicker which means you can get the robo before the sentry, quite a bit faster. The stalker pokes out a bit to scout for odd things coming in like a marine all-in which you should be able to handle with the sentries coming out asap. I make a zealot while cyber is building by the way. - I tend to expo with 1 gate, and then put down 2 more. Obs first or immortal first depends on what the stalker see's basically, usually it's immortal first as that allows me to defend the expo against 2 rax pressure pretty well. - Against 1 base tech builds it's nice to do some quick immortal-stalker pressure on their wall-in. Simply go 1 immortal then 1 obs or vice-versa and then pressure but don't make a proxy pylon or make an obscure one. With the immortal and a few stalkers you can easily snipe 1 or 2 depot's in his wall and then just back off while being completely safe because of your sentries. This tends to delay a 1-1-1 quite nicely while you counter with your preferred unit combo (not sure if fast colo or just zealot-stalker-immo is best, might be fast colo with this build as you can actually get them out really quickly but it sure isn't as easy as Artosis makes it sound).
On February 05 2012 05:41 Roynalf wrote: I would like to have more replays, would be nice if you could add more. Pretty nice guide. Why did your build orders were soe diffrent on these 2 games, no zealots, later nexus etc. was this somthing what you scouted what made you react this way or were you just trying little changes to build.
Keep making guides
I wanted to write this guide mainly for myself, because I did this build how I remembered it from VOD, but i didnt have it written down exactly to every point. So that's why it can be slightly different. But even if it is variation I think the replays are still useful to see where you want to get and how to execute the attack if you don't have GSL ticket. I will add more replays if I get to play against terran.
On February 05 2012 05:42 habermas wrote: Cool. I've been using this style with good success since seeing in at MLG Providence. Some notes:
* Against gasless expand Puzzle will usually expand before robo and delay an attack till he has 6 gates and 2 immortals. * Against 2 or more rax pressure you should cancel your observer and get immortal first asap to defend expansion. * This push works best against 2-3 rax into factory from terran. It's quite risky against 4+ rax and downright loses to fast ghosts. * A good follow up is to drop 2 forges when attacking.
Can you show me some vs ghosts replay? I think that if you scout ghosts you just tech up to collosus and you should easily win? But I don't know, never seen anybody rush ghosts on ladder so I have no experience
Yeah I rarely see it too. It's not that the build is bad, as it's kind of standard, but you probably shouldn't do this push against no fast factory play.
On February 05 2012 07:20 ins(out)side wrote: @Habermas
I just have a question regarding those replays...who is actually playing Protoss? Is it Puzzle using Cellas NA account? I didn't watch MLG providence so I'm noob and don't know T.T
Yeah it's Puzzle on Cella's account against some random guys in the open bracket. You can see the games are not very close.
On February 05 2012 07:20 ins(out)side wrote: @Habermas
I just have a question regarding those replays...who is actually playing Protoss? Is it Puzzle using Cellas NA account? I didn't watch MLG providence so I'm noob and don't know T.T
Yup that's puzzle playing on Cellas account in the open bracket
Edit: sniped
In regards to the build I've been trying out 2gate robo openers for a long time since puzzle is my favorite player and it's really been his build of choice for as long he's been in the GSL. The flexibility to launch into super powerful attacks such as this one are why I love them and his style so much. Id strongly recommend anyone to at least just play around with robo openers in PvT once in a while.
Various thoughts about Immortal busts (master Protoss):
-3 Immortals, rather than just 2, makes a huge difference when trying to take down bunkers. This is why if you plan to do real bust (and not just pressure), you need to go gate robo or gate FE robo otherwise you can't get out 3 immortals in time (you want to hit a pre-medivac timing, so before 10 mins). You can't really do it with Gate FE Gate Gate Robo. Also you need to open 2 gas before you FE regardless of the opening. However, the gate FE robo opening is quite vulnerable to quite a few things, so you have to make sure there is no pressure coming. I suggest going for a gate robo build vs. gas openings.
-If they throw down a lot of bunkers, it is better to have a mostly stalkers rather than zealots. Also when throwing down FFs it's not just to prevent repair, but to completely wall-out any of his forces behind the bunkers. Your goal initially is to take down the bunkers, so isolate them from his army by making a complete wall behind the bunkers. This is why you go for heavier stalker composition rather than zealots, as his army behind the FFs will still be able to hit the zealots.
-You can do a 1-base version of the immortal bust, and it opens virtually identically (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=264470) except instead of the Nexus you throw down a forge and 3 more gates. This is actually a very strong counter to 2-rax into expand. Terran delays their expo by going 2-rax and doing no damage with it since you didn't expo and they can't go up your ramp. They also made marauders which will get eaten up by your immortal bust later. This 1-base version of the immortal bust is very hard to stop w/o ghosts, which the terran will very likely not have due to late expo and gas spent on marauders and bio upgrades.
-Both the 1 and 2 base versions is actually quite effective vs. 1/1/1, another big plus in my book.
edit: Oh and when you do the bust you want ~7 sentries. Make then as early as possible w/o stopping immortal production, then just warp in stalkers.
On February 05 2012 12:32 Stato wrote: what is a safe way of actually stopping this as a terran? other than getting ghosts ?
MASS bunkers, and heavy amounts of marines. It helps if you can work in a +1 weapons upgrade. I play both terran and protoss, and I've stopped it (three or four times out of a million lol) when I can squeeze an upgrade in and like 9 bunkers lol. Hitting the army when it's moving out is also helpful. If your opponent is careless, you can snipe a sentry or two while only losing marines. ALWAYS GO FOR THE SENTRIES.
On February 05 2012 12:32 Stato wrote: what is a safe way of actually stopping this as a terran? other than getting ghosts ?
A well executed flank w/ mass marines while focus firing down the Sentries would probably be the best solution outside of Ghosts. People might think it is the Immortals that are the problem but it is the Sentries that are the crutch of the build (for example a 6-Gate is hits a similar timing and is executed in a similar manner w/ lots of Sentries). The push completely relies on FFs keeping the main bulk of the Terran army out of the fight while they focus down the bunkers.
On February 05 2012 12:32 Stato wrote: what is a safe way of actually stopping this as a terran? other than getting ghosts ?
There's two ways I've found so far:
1. Go scare the crap out of them first. If you can put on enough pressure without throwing your stuff away, they'll actually just abandon the idea of doing a three immortal bust entirely a lot of the time.
2. Marine Banshee / Marine Banshee Siege: This doesn't sound like it should work, but a lot of the time's I've seen it it actually has (don't know about Masters though). If you can appropriately scout which gateway units he's relying a lot more heavily on, and the map/your positioning will allow you to set up two-ish siege tanks safely, that and micro'd banshees and just straight marines can sometimes just stop it. Rarely I've seen terrans actually just move out when they see the protoss does, and with a lot of micro handle it okay, or the terran moving out with thier banshees early and keeping them by the protoss and going in and killing all of the things while the protoss army is in the middle of the map. He either has to turn around or base trade, or warp in stalkers and hope it's enough (and it shouldn't be without him bringing his stalkers back home, and if he does he might realize he's behind and either attack, in which case you just send your banshees in again and again and again keeping his stalkers at home and finishing stim and raising your marine tank count, or bring them back and hope you have enough stuff with them). Either way if I'm thinking of the correct build, the toss isn't really teching while he's doing it, so any amount you can delay after he starts moving out that makes him stop or flat go back home is just pushing you towards a win. If he keeps pushing immortals out (not trying to bust anymore, just going for a "im gonna get 5-6 immortals and some gateway units and kill you", what I've seen done is that a terran will get ghosts really fast just to emp. If you can hit the immortals AND some sentries you just win.
Any feedback about the second one at highest levels if it totally just falls apart around Masters would be cool, it's just how I've been stopping it when I scout it and how I've seen it stopped.
I'm only diamond but I've been using variations on this build for the past 3 weeks. I first saw it executed by VileYong. He routinely does the 2gate-robo-expo version. I've seen Russano doing a 1gate-robo-FE that is able to hit with an equally scary push.
My FFing is improving using this build as it is a bit vulnerable to early heavy rine builds (1-rax-CC into 4rax rine). I really like having the option of grabbing a fast collosus if I scout the T going mass rine with multiple reactors while teching to medivac. But the earlier marine pressure that comes when I have 1 immortal and 2-4 sentries can be tricky.
I really don't know if 1-gate-robo-FE or gate-robo-gate-expo makes the most sense. I've searched for TL threads detailing 1 gate-robo-FEs and they are out of date/not that helpful.
Seeing as Puzzle is favoring the 2-gate version, I'll keep up with it for now.
On February 05 2012 13:48 skatbone wrote: I'm only diamond but I've been using variations on this build for the past 3 weeks. I first saw it executed by VileYong. He routinely does the 2gate-robo-expo version. I've seen Russano doing a 1gate-robo-FE that is able to hit with an equally scary push.
My FFing is improving using this build as it is a bit vulnerable to early heavy rine builds (1-rax-CC into 4rax rine). I really like having the option of grabbing a fast collosus if I scout the T going mass rine with multiple reactors while teching to medivac. But the earlier marine pressure that comes when I have 1 immortal and 2-4 sentries can be tricky.
I really don't know if 1-gate-robo-FE or gate-robo-gate-expo makes the most sense. I've searched for TL threads detailing 1 gate-robo-FEs and they are out of date/not that helpful.
Seeing as Puzzle is favoring the 2-gate version, I'll keep up with it for now.
It seemed to me Puzzle did the gate robo gate version when he scouted gas to be safe from 2/3-rax, and then did the gate FE robo version when he scouted no gas. At least that's what I noticed while watching his games the other day.
This build is a big problem. Bunkers are almost useless vs it. There's no time to get banshees or ghosts. Terran doesn't have anything at that stage of the game to deal with the century/immortal combination unless it was a part of their planned build like 1-1-1 or mass rin or early ghosts. TvP has been a mess of a MU for a long time, I'm sure it gives Blizzard many headaches.
On February 05 2012 14:30 mlspmatt wrote: This build is a big problem. Bunkers are almost useless vs it. There's no time to get banshees or ghosts. Terran doesn't have anything at that stage of the game to deal with the century/immortal combination unless it was a part of their planned build like 1-1-1 or mass rin or early ghosts. TvP has been a mess of a MU for a long time, I'm sure it gives Blizzard many headaches.
Definitely agree. PvZ/ZvP? Ehh its reasonably balanced, mostly map-dependent IMO. ZvT/TvZ? Fine, incredibly fun to play and watch. TvP/PvT? OMFG this matchup sucks, in terms of watching and playing from both sides. The win rates have swung back and forth so much in this matchup over the past year
On February 05 2012 14:30 mlspmatt wrote: This build is a big problem. Bunkers are almost useless vs it. There's no time to get banshees or ghosts. Terran doesn't have anything at that stage of the game to deal with the century/immortal combination unless it was a part of their planned build like 1-1-1 or mass rin or early ghosts. TvP has been a mess of a MU for a long time, I'm sure it gives Blizzard many headaches.
If they're doing the two base variety there is certainly time.
MC's been doing pretty much the same build since MLG Orlando. One example is MC vs Puma game 2 on Dual Sight. I also think he did it game 3 vs TheStC (Dual Sight).
He usually does it with a 1 Gate FE (2 gas) although he'll go 2 Gate Robo if he scouts certain gas builds (2 Rax I think). He gets 6-9 sentry, ~6 zealot, 2-3 Immortal, and 4-5 Stalker. Then he attacks after warping a second round of stalkers with his 5 warpgates.
It's important to spread your army correctly and use hold position to keep your units out of range of the units trapped behind FFs.
On February 06 2012 00:59 jupiter6 wrote: dragon just lost to welmu in gosc2 cup to this build, perfectly scouted had 3 bunkers and scv's ready to repair, didnt matter he just got rolled
yeah, unless you already have ghosts, or banshees, or a mass rhine build, you're in trouble. Maybe 6-8 bunkers can hold it off, which is pretty ridiculous. It seems the build is just starting to catch on now, so give it a month before every protoss on the planet is using it, then another month for all the terrans to complain about it, then we'll see.
I think part of the reason this is so succesful is that many terrans are teching too widespread and/or go too marauder heavy. For example many terrans get quick ebay for +1, a turret and tech to dropship at the same time. Many terrans going 2 techlabs 1 reactor also happens alot which tends to result in too many marauders which is pretty awful against this too.
Without teching too greedy and having enough marines in the mix this attack can be stopped pretty well. Having enough units really is key, simply adding more bunkers doesn't work that well as they are not so great against this tactic. A bunker costs the same as 2 marines and only adds 400 armored hp that doesn't even fire. Also the way many people build bunkers they make it insanely easy for P to get perfect forcefields off as T has made himself immobile. FFing just behind the bunkers and attacking with a minimal amount of zealots makes this attack so strong because the T army is split up and does very little when the zealots are dead while the P usually has a perfect concave + tons of ff's to spare.
I like the build being so viable though, before I always hated to go robo before expand as I felt i was too far behind against any expand build from terran. The threat of immortal busts keeps terran's more honest though and they can't play as greedy. This is also just a good attack you can do reactively with any quick robo build which makes it even better.
Me and my friends have been using immortal pushes like this since last summer. What I think terrans need to understand is as long as your build gets you enough sentries, you can push anywhere from 1-5 immortals and the proper way to handle each push depends on how many immortals there are, but universally I don't believe bunkers are the way to go.
No matter how many bunkers you build, you either will not have enough units or the player can just attack early and catch you before the bunkers are done or attack late when there are enough immortals that bunkers don't matter, since they'll have an obs out. The key is just to have alot of units and not be afraid to lift and retreat up your ramp or to prepare before hand and flank the army so they can't just split your army into small chunks.
This is just speculation, but, it seems that if the Protoss is going with at least 3 immortals, they're only going to have 1 observer. The observer is either going to be with the army or with the main, so it feels like you could go cloak banshee with a late expansion and the Protoss has to at least delay the push until they get a forge or a second observer out.
On the other hand, we may just see a return of Terrans going with really marine heavy styles in the opening, idk.
It's nice to see this build order hashed out on TL.
I'm not sure about that nexus timing, I think it can be squeezed out earlier, or in the same vein I'd like to work this out from a nexus first, I feel like it should be pretty dirty.
Puzzle's variation is off 2gate robo expand, in which the first immortal is started right after the nexus. The reason for this is that the immortals come out a good deal faster than with a 1gate expand-->3gate-->robo opening. I guess 1gate fe into super fast robo is doable but that's pretty unsafe vs hellion drop and some variation of bio pressure, so you have to have a really good read to pull that off.
I have seen immortal busts off 1gate fe in GSL fail because they hit after stim and sometimes even medivacs are done, while Puzzle's variation is so strong because it comes so fast. It's also a good way to be aggressive with 2gate obs expand, which is a big reason why that build fell off.
Insanely strong all-in/timing attack, and sadly very, very easy to execute. You need 6-8 bunkers to hold it, or pure marines. If you built any marauders you are in danger of losing.
It's just another all-in which is crazy...because you have to 100% randomly predict protoss is going to do this build early on in the game, because if you do not you will only have 2-3 bunkers and you lose. You also have to have made pure marines to hold it efficiently...and protoss can just react to that by simply not attacking...so...
1) You execute this build - you can outright kill Terran. 2) You see they react the only possible way they can (8 bunkers or mass marines) and you simply don't attack, take a third, and come out with a free advantage ...
It's so good makes me cry lol. All protoss should add this to their arsenal though for obvious reasons, if I was protoss i would :D
On February 07 2012 19:38 avilo wrote: You also have to have made pure marines to hold it efficiently...and protoss can just react to that by simply not attacking...so...
2) You see they react the only possible way they can (8 bunkers or mass marines) and you simply don't attack, take a third, and come out with a free advantage ...
I disagree with this. How you think that protoss has an advantage if he is going to attack (protoss has been making pretty earlt production facilities, making constant units and most likely chronoing gateways) but then decides not to? Do you think that protoss (or any other race) could just prepare for a strong push and then not execute it? If terran has been making a lot of marines, of course protoss is behind.
On February 07 2012 20:08 cydial wrote: So basically, terran must react to seeing a robo with ghosts?
Robo, no. 2+ immortals and lots of sentries, probably.
I am not sure how the timings work out though, protoss might be able to hit before you get EMP. I hope that's not true, if so earlygame pvt gets even more coinflippy.
Does anyone else feel that this matchup is super reactive to what the protoss is doing to the point that if you don't just HAPPEN to have the perfect unit comp as in ghosts for templar or in this case immortal or the right number of vikings you're dead?
Lately I've been playing protoss and it feels like I'm always in control of the game unless the terran does some all in involing most of not all their scvs.
Perhaps the next great terran strat will be something that involves mass ghost as seen in one of the IPL games (I forget which one).
However, right now it's just downright silly how strong protoss early pushes are against a macro style terran....
It goes halfway. If Protoss makes a bad read in the early game (tech vs expo for example) he's in trouble; if he misses a ghost timing and is being a bit too greedy (with double forge or whatever) he's in trouble, etc etc.
I definitely agree it's too volatile and unforgiving, and often times early game feels like a coinflip.
Terran has always had some problems defending a immortal push I think what people have said about needing more marines instead of marauders is correct. I personally have never thought of marauders as a good unit vs most toss unit comps and this is just one more reason not to make them. Also I do think that bunkers are fairly useless vs this push as they add no extra damage and that is what you really need to hold the push not extra hitpoints. Basically the toss is hitting the terran with the most and best units they can produce by that time so really the terran will need to also have the most and best units to defend. When you factor in that warpgates allows for the whole toss army to be in the fight it's really not a good idea to try and skimp on units vs this build.
I might sound crazy for saying this but I think unsieged tanks might be part of the answer as they have the range to not get instantly focused and actually do amazing damage vs stalkers and immortals (after their shields are gone). They can also be mass repaired so having like 2 siege tanks and marines behind a bunker with a ton of scv's repairing should be able to fend this off I would hope. Also if you do manage to fend this push off you want to be thinking about how you can best punish the toss for having "tossed" their whole army at you. Siege tanks would be pretty handy for trying to return the favor at their expo.
One thing I thought about when defending this build is that if your still inside your base if your bunker is far enough back the protoss army wont be able to get a conclave as they will have to come up your ramp a bit. Not that it helps any if your doing a fe build but I have personally never liked fast expanding vs protoss.
Does anyone else feel that this matchup is super reactive to what the protoss is doing to the point that if you don't just HAPPEN to have the perfect unit comp as in ghosts for templar or in this case immortal or the right number of vikings you're dead?
Lately I've been playing protoss and it feels like I'm always in control of the game unless the terran does some all in involing most of not all their scvs.
Perhaps the next great terran strat will be something that involves mass ghost as seen in one of the IPL games (I forget which one).
However, right now it's just downright silly how strong protoss early pushes are against a macro style terran....
I could say the same thing about early-game Terran pushes against a 1gate FE. Don't have the right number of Zealot/Stalker/Sentry? You're dead. Can't scout whether it is 2rax with a CC or 3rax all-in? You're dead. Etc.
Right, but the late game, aka a macro game is what the end game of SC2 is.
Does anyone else feel that this matchup is super reactive to what the protoss is doing to the point that if you don't just HAPPEN to have the perfect unit comp as in ghosts for templar or in this case immortal or the right number of vikings you're dead?
Lately I've been playing protoss and it feels like I'm always in control of the game unless the terran does some all in involing most of not all their scvs.
Perhaps the next great terran strat will be something that involves mass ghost as seen in one of the IPL games (I forget which one).
However, right now it's just downright silly how strong protoss early pushes are against a macro style terran....
I could say the same thing about early-game Terran pushes against a 1gate FE. Don't have the right number of Zealot/Stalker/Sentry? You're dead. Can't scout whether it is 2rax with a CC or 3rax all-in? You're dead. Etc.
Right, but the late game, aka a macro game is what the end game of SC2 is.
But then you do have the means to scout with scans and even drops. Missing a scout timing is not as bad as feeling forced to flip a coin because you have no means of knowing exactly what the other guy is doing.
PvT is definitely reactive for terran in terms of tech choices (ghost vs vikings specifically), and i don't see anything wrong with that honestly. In terms of moving out on the map and being active it's the complete opposite however. For Protoss it's either allin (6gate, zealot/archon, fast colossus etc) or defend drops until you are 3/3 and maxed.
Does anyone else feel that this matchup is super reactive to what the protoss is doing to the point that if you don't just HAPPEN to have the perfect unit comp as in ghosts for templar or in this case immortal or the right number of vikings you're dead?
Lately I've been playing protoss and it feels like I'm always in control of the game unless the terran does some all in involing most of not all their scvs.
Perhaps the next great terran strat will be something that involves mass ghost as seen in one of the IPL games (I forget which one).
However, right now it's just downright silly how strong protoss early pushes are against a macro style terran....
I could say the same thing about early-game Terran pushes against a 1gate FE. Don't have the right number of Zealot/Stalker/Sentry? You're dead. Can't scout whether it is 2rax with a CC or 3rax all-in? You're dead. Etc.
Right, but the late game, aka a macro game is what the end game of SC2 is.
There are more ways to scout in the late-game and Terran already has one of the best scouting methods available (scans).
Which is why I was talking more about the early to mid game where immortal pushes and later on colossus pushes are common...
Does anyone else feel that this matchup is super reactive to what the protoss is doing to the point that if you don't just HAPPEN to have the perfect unit comp as in ghosts for templar or in this case immortal or the right number of vikings you're dead?
Lately I've been playing protoss and it feels like I'm always in control of the game unless the terran does some all in involing most of not all their scvs.
Perhaps the next great terran strat will be something that involves mass ghost as seen in one of the IPL games (I forget which one).
However, right now it's just downright silly how strong protoss early pushes are against a macro style terran....
I could say the same thing about early-game Terran pushes against a 1gate FE. Don't have the right number of Zealot/Stalker/Sentry? You're dead. Can't scout whether it is 2rax with a CC or 3rax all-in? You're dead. Etc.
Right, but the late game, aka a macro game is what the end game of SC2 is.
There are more ways to scout in the late-game and Terran already has one of the best scouting methods available (scans).
Which is why I was talking more about the early to mid game where immortal pushes and later on colossus pushes are common...
Quoting you:
ghosts for templar or in this case immortal or the right number of vikings you're dead?
The difference between fast colossus and immortal busts are 1) gasses taken at the natural 2) unit count; fast colossus will cut units, immortal busts won't 3) probe count at the natural, really fast immortal busts like puzzle's cut probes at 30ish 4) if you get lucky, a freakin robo bay in the main around 8 minutes.
Honestly this discussion gets more useless by the minute.
You dont need the sentry so fast since with a stalker u are safe enough to put down the robotics first.The sentry after robotics arrive long time before the first marauder and the second second sentry is in time too if something fails and u werent efficient enough with the first forcefield.This allows you go get the observer much faster and be safer when expanding since you can see whats been thrown at you.I've been using this build for a while now and it's been very common on the GM/high master scene lately in Europe.
ps : if u start arguing about the sentry bulking energy being the reason for getting it first i have to say it actually generates a really small amount of energy in that time (like 10) but your robotics is a healthy 20 ingame secs earlier.
On February 07 2012 19:38 avilo wrote: Insanely strong all-in/timing attack, and sadly very, very easy to execute. You need 6-8 bunkers to hold it, or pure marines. If you built any marauders you are in danger of losing.
It's just another all-in which is crazy...because you have to 100% randomly predict protoss is going to do this build early on in the game, because if you do not you will only have 2-3 bunkers and you lose. You also have to have made pure marines to hold it efficiently...and protoss can just react to that by simply not attacking...so...
1) You execute this build - you can outright kill Terran. 2) You see they react the only possible way they can (8 bunkers or mass marines) and you simply don't attack, take a third, and come out with a free advantage ...
It's so good makes me cry lol. All protoss should add this to their arsenal though for obvious reasons, if I was protoss i would :D
I don't see how this is any different than the 2-1-1 builds Terran was/is doing. It was nigh unbeatable for a good while, Protoss started figuring it out and Blizzard gave the Immortal a range buff and now it's at least feasible to hold with good game planning and micro. I am sure that someone is going to develop a strategy to combat the immortal bust, it will just take some time.
On February 08 2012 01:01 Harstem wrote: How do you hold 2rax with it?
Scout with probe/stalker, cancel observer, chrono immortal. Immortals are really good against small numbers of bio. I believe one of the replays I posted on the first page shows 2 rax defence on XC.
On February 07 2012 23:23 Sated wrote: There are more ways to scout in the late-game and Terran already has one of the best scouting methods available (scans).
Scans are actually not useful in a situation like this - scanning at that point in a game is super-reliant on luck; it's just too easy for P to hide their tech and their army, and you end up wasting 5 marines.
With the 12 probe scout, what (other than of course cheese) are you looking for? Is there anything you might see that would cause you to abandon this unit composition and go for something more conservative (like with more stalkers)?
On February 05 2012 14:30 mlspmatt wrote: This build is a big problem. Bunkers are almost useless vs it. There's no time to get banshees or ghosts. Terran doesn't have anything at that stage of the game to deal with the century/immortal combination unless it was a part of their planned build like 1-1-1 or mass rin or early ghosts. TvP has been a mess of a MU for a long time, I'm sure it gives Blizzard many headaches.
Definitely agree. PvZ/ZvP? Ehh its reasonably balanced, mostly map-dependent IMO. ZvT/TvZ? Fine, incredibly fun to play and watch. TvP/PvT? OMFG this matchup sucks, in terms of watching and playing from both sides. The win rates have swung back and forth so much in this matchup over the past year
hehe tvp/pvt is my favorite MU. In customs i play pvz, pvt and tvp. It is the most difficult MU to figure out but once you do it become very fun to abuse things the other side struggles against.
On February 07 2012 19:38 avilo wrote: Insanely strong all-in/timing attack, and sadly very, very easy to execute. You need 6-8 bunkers to hold it, or pure marines. If you built any marauders you are in danger of losing.
It's just another all-in which is crazy...because you have to 100% randomly predict protoss is going to do this build early on in the game, because if you do not you will only have 2-3 bunkers and you lose. You also have to have made pure marines to hold it efficiently...and protoss can just react to that by simply not attacking...so...
1) You execute this build - you can outright kill Terran. 2) You see they react the only possible way they can (8 bunkers or mass marines) and you simply don't attack, take a third, and come out with a free advantage ...
It's so good makes me cry lol. All protoss should add this to their arsenal though for obvious reasons, if I was protoss i would :D
I don't see how this is any different than the 2-1-1 builds Terran was/is doing. It was nigh unbeatable for a good while, Protoss started figuring it out and Blizzard gave the Immortal a range buff and now it's at least feasible to hold with good game planning and micro. I am sure that someone is going to develop a strategy to combat the immortal bust, it will just take some time.
This 2-base immortal build can be compared to 1-1-1 before the patch. Insanely hard to hold, relatively easy to execute, difficult to scout. Somebody will figure out a decent counter though, there always is a solution ^^ Or it could just be me being optimistic...
This 2-base immortal build can be compared to 1-1-1 before the patch. Insanely hard to hold, relatively easy to execute, difficult to scout. Somebody will figure out a decent counter though, there always is a solution ^^ Or it could just be me being optimistic...
Difficult to scout? Plays terran, never heard of scans. If you don't use your scan, you're playing greedy. You underestimate the skill it takes to place the correct forcefields to pull this off. Try it on ladder against players who just pump from 4-5 rax. The reason this works well at higher levels is that it exploits a meta game timing, where there is a chance that the terran is playing slightly greedy, either teching too hard or getting a quick third, which is when this hits. Against slightly safer play i.e. more rax, more rines, faster stim, this is iffy. Relying on mass bunkers is bad, since they evaporate, and the units in them become fodder to forcefields.
This 2-base immortal build can be compared to 1-1-1 before the patch. Insanely hard to hold, relatively easy to execute, difficult to scout. Somebody will figure out a decent counter though, there always is a solution ^^ Or it could just be me being optimistic...
Difficult to scout? Plays terran, never heard of scans. If you don't use your scan, you're playing greedy. You underestimate the skill it takes to place the correct forcefields to pull this off. Try it on ladder against players who just pump from 4-5 rax. The reason this works well at higher levels is that it exploits a meta game timing, where there is a chance that the terran is playing slightly greedy, either teching too hard or getting a quick third, which is when this hits. Against slightly safer play i.e. more rax, more rines, faster stim, this is iffy. Relying on mass bunkers is bad, since they evaporate, and the units in them become fodder to forcefields.
if protoss isnt brain dead your scan will reveal nothing
This 2-base immortal build can be compared to 1-1-1 before the patch. Insanely hard to hold, relatively easy to execute, difficult to scout. Somebody will figure out a decent counter though, there always is a solution ^^ Or it could just be me being optimistic...
Difficult to scout? Plays terran, never heard of scans. If you don't use your scan, you're playing greedy. You underestimate the skill it takes to place the correct forcefields to pull this off. Try it on ladder against players who just pump from 4-5 rax. The reason this works well at higher levels is that it exploits a meta game timing, where there is a chance that the terran is playing slightly greedy, either teching too hard or getting a quick third, which is when this hits. Against slightly safer play i.e. more rax, more rines, faster stim, this is iffy. Relying on mass bunkers is bad, since they evaporate, and the units in them become fodder to forcefields.
if protoss isnt brain dead your scan will reveal nothing
No gasses at the natural, few probes present, a later nexus than normal if you he opens 2gate robo (which puzzle does) are all scoutable.
This 2-base immortal build can be compared to 1-1-1 before the patch. Insanely hard to hold, relatively easy to execute, difficult to scout. Somebody will figure out a decent counter though, there always is a solution ^^ Or it could just be me being optimistic...
Difficult to scout? Plays terran, never heard of scans. If you don't use your scan, you're playing greedy. You underestimate the skill it takes to place the correct forcefields to pull this off. Try it on ladder against players who just pump from 4-5 rax. The reason this works well at higher levels is that it exploits a meta game timing, where there is a chance that the terran is playing slightly greedy, either teching too hard or getting a quick third, which is when this hits. Against slightly safer play i.e. more rax, more rines, faster stim, this is iffy. Relying on mass bunkers is bad, since they evaporate, and the units in them become fodder to forcefields.
if protoss isnt brain dead your scan will reveal nothing
You don't even need to scan. The high amount of early sentries is probably the biggest tell that a bust is coming (either a 6-gate or Immortal bust). If you just sit in your base and don't poke out and scout at all for 10 mins into the game however... whose fault is that exactly?
The 1-1-1 is also not that hard to scout exactly. It's a 1-base strat and as Protoss the reaction is the same to any 1-base strat, to get an observer in there ASAP while watching for any marine/scv all-in.
It seems to me the current "standard" Terran play in TvP is just cutting a ton of cornors in the first 9 mins or so of the game, getting a fast 3rd CC and/or double engi bays, etc, and over-relying on bunkers. Having tech (ghosts or medivacs) and a good army size and NOT relying on bunkers and a small amount of units is the way to stop this push. Flanking is also incredibly effective vs. this push, much how flanking is very effective at defending the 1/1/1. A lot of terrans hide behind their bunkers vs. this push, but that is wrong way to go about this given the ample amount of FFs Protoss has at his disposal when this push comes.
This 2-base immortal build can be compared to 1-1-1 before the patch. Insanely hard to hold, relatively easy to execute, difficult to scout. Somebody will figure out a decent counter though, there always is a solution ^^ Or it could just be me being optimistic...
Difficult to scout? Plays terran, never heard of scans. If you don't use your scan, you're playing greedy. You underestimate the skill it takes to place the correct forcefields to pull this off. Try it on ladder against players who just pump from 4-5 rax. The reason this works well at higher levels is that it exploits a meta game timing, where there is a chance that the terran is playing slightly greedy, either teching too hard or getting a quick third, which is when this hits. Against slightly safer play i.e. more rax, more rines, faster stim, this is iffy. Relying on mass bunkers is bad, since they evaporate, and the units in them become fodder to forcefields.
if protoss isnt brain dead your scan will reveal nothing
If the protoss is telepathic, it will reveal nothing.
I've been playing with that build since it was posted here with moderate success, but I believe that's because my execution is flawed. I'm doing Puzzle's version with a small variant: once the 2-3 imms are done I queue up a prism, and time my attack so that I can warp zealots in Terran's main at the same time I attack the natural.
I found out ( the hard way ) it's only a good idea in theory, but not so much in reality. It delays the timings a little bit, enough for Terran to have stim and/or his first medivacs. Worse, it makes reinforcing your attack at the front impossible, since you're warping in the main. Terran can just defend the attack at the natural while saving his scvs, and clean up the zealots in his main afterwards
Other than learning a drop prism doesn't work, I'm also slightly confused by the army compositions. Puzzle does it without zealots, he only warps tons of stalkers out of 6 gates. While doing the same, I realized that the range of sentries being 1 lower than the imms/stalkers, sentries easily go on the front and get snipped by the bunkers/marines/etc.. So before I'm able to reinforce, I already lost most of my sentries. How should you handle the positionning of sentries with that build ? Should they FF and somehow retreat ? Should you split your army in two groups ? Should you reinforce with more sentries, or with pure zealots to tank damage ?
I also find that this build is a kill or be killed build. You're late on your upgrades/tech, most likely a bit behind in eco ( your chronos go into immortals/warp research and you must delay your expo a bit later, like near 6', compared to a faster 1 gate FE ), and your army is very immobile, so once you engage you can't retreat. I've lost a couple games because I was too shy and attempted to retreat my army when he brought all his scvs to tank, only to lose everything to stim/conc shells.
Also, how do you handle marines pressure ? You only got a stalker, 3/4 sentries and possibly an immortal when the push arrives. The Terran will focus the sentries first, and they die so easily to marines that it'll weaken your later attack quite a bit. Should I cut his army in half and attempt to micro/save the sentries he focuses, or should I simply FF in front of his marines and prevent him from attacking at all, at the cost of energy ?
Finally, what do you do against a Terran that goes quick medivacs drop ? The scenario happened to me yesterday: my imm/sentries/stalker army was half-way on the map when 2 medivacs full of rines/raudeurs dropped in my main. I could probably easily bust his natural, but I'd have no way to save my main even with 6 gates of warp, plus he snipped my pylons first so I'm quickly supply blocked. The base trade scenario would be unfavorable to me ( he has imba scvs to tank ! ), and coming back means 30s of party time in my main for him. It sounds like I'm fucked in both cases
For marine pressure I would forcefield the marines out while you use that time to get a few more units to tank and defend. Using sentry energy isn't bad if it keeps you from taking damage. Sure it will hurt your planned timing attack, but if his pressure fails to do damage then he is likely behind in tech. This of course will vary, but if you can prevent the damage then you are no worse off and just need to adjust your plan from there.
For drops, you just need to be active with your observer. It should reach your opponents base before they have medivacs out. If you see a starport just be active with your obs and watch for signs of a drop. Don't move out if it appears your opponent has.
On February 09 2012 22:15 Nyast wrote: I've been playing with that build since it was posted here with moderate success, but I believe that's because my execution is flawed. I'm doing Puzzle's version with a small variant: once the 2-3 imms are done I queue up a prism, and time my attack so that I can warp zealots in Terran's main at the same time I attack the natural.
I found out ( the hard way ) it's only a good idea in theory, but not so much in reality. It delays the timings a little bit, enough for Terran to have stim and/or his first medivacs. Worse, it makes reinforcing your attack at the front impossible, since you're warping in the main. Terran can just defend the attack at the natural while saving his scvs, and clean up the zealots in his main afterwards
Other than learning a drop prism doesn't work, I'm also slightly confused by the army compositions. Puzzle does it without zealots, he only warps tons of stalkers out of 6 gates. While doing the same, I realized that the range of sentries being 1 lower than the imms/stalkers, sentries easily go on the front and get snipped by the bunkers/marines/etc.. So before I'm able to reinforce, I already lost most of my sentries. How should you handle the positionning of sentries with that build ? Should they FF and somehow retreat ? Should you split your army in two groups ? Should you reinforce with more sentries, or with pure zealots to tank damage ?
I also find that this build is a kill or be killed build. You're late on your upgrades/tech, most likely a bit behind in eco ( your chronos go into immortals/warp research and you must delay your expo a bit later, like near 6', compared to a faster 1 gate FE ), and your army is very immobile, so once you engage you can't retreat. I've lost a couple games because I was too shy and attempted to retreat my army when he brought all his scvs to tank, only to lose everything to stim/conc shells.
Also, how do you handle marines pressure ? You only got a stalker, 3/4 sentries and possibly an immortal when the push arrives. The Terran will focus the sentries first, and they die so easily to marines that it'll weaken your later attack quite a bit. Should I cut his army in half and attempt to micro/save the sentries he focuses, or should I simply FF in front of his marines and prevent him from attacking at all, at the cost of energy ?
Finally, what do you do against a Terran that goes quick medivacs drop ? The scenario happened to me yesterday: my imm/sentries/stalker army was half-way on the map when 2 medivacs full of rines/raudeurs dropped in my main. I could probably easily bust his natural, but I'd have no way to save my main even with 6 gates of warp, plus he snipped my pylons first so I'm quickly supply blocked. The base trade scenario would be unfavorable to me ( he has imba scvs to tank ! ), and coming back means 30s of party time in my main for him. It sounds like I'm fucked in both cases
-Puzzle didn't make zealots because of the high # of bunkers. The trick to busting a high amount of bunkers is FF'ing his main army behind his bunkers away (which also keeps SCVs from repairing) and focusing down the bunkers 1 by 1 with ranged units. Then when the bunkers are gone you can go back and mix in more zealots to deal with his actual army.
-I didn't rewatch Puzzle's games but IIRC he still made a couple of zealots. Even when busting bunkers you want to make a few zealots simply to tank damage so your sentries don't die instantly. You only need a couple of zealots to tank since with 3 Immortals you can take down bunkers extremely fast.
-Re: Marine pressure it's hard to say unless you post a replay. You don't reference any particular build or timing. It seems you are perhaps asking about something like a naked 4-rax pressure or something.
-Re: Medivacs, if he dropping in your base your push is coming too slow. You should be hitting them before 10 mins generally.
-Re: how "all-in" it is, If you go gate-robo-gate you get a late expo, and you also cut a lot of probes for the push, so you need to do a lot of damage, basically enough for you to catch up in econ. It's a much better "on the fly" type of build than a "standard" build so to speak, e.g. for instance you suspect early game pressure and go gate-robo-gate (which is one of the safest openers out there), but then later see you were duped or had a bad read and he expanded instead and he is now ahead in econ. In that scenario it makes a lot of sense to go for this type of bust to equalize the game economically or even outright win. So don't see it as an "all-in" build that you have to win with the bust itself because unless the Terran loses his entire army attempting to defend his natural it will be hard to bust up into his main.
This push and 6/7/8 gate are hillarious, MC uses them against the likes of MVP with 6 bunkers(regardless of the 3rd CC, SIX BUNKERS) and crushes him like it's no thing, against no bunkers(Ganzi), it was just as one-sided.Puzzle hasn't lost a game using them. Parting double expands off of 1 gate and still crushes a 14cc(at that point 1raxFE would have less units) by Jjakji, a player that complely outclasses him micro wise in a normal game.So if terran gets double oc he instantly dies to it (given MVP's 6 bunkers not holding it), but if a protoss double expands, they work perfectly fine!Those busts have nearly 100% win ratio in the GSL 2012.I guess you gotta 1-1-1 and hope for the best, even though it isn't working at all as of late(Supernova).
I guess there's a reason MC has been doing those for as long as I can remember.
thanks for this, i'm looking for more immortal based builds. when my opponents see robo they often still think 'colossi' and go vikings. immortals feel like the unit of the moment. and puzzle and this build are both incredibly handsome.
On February 10 2012 09:17 herrmus wrote: How do you deal with 111 at high master level with this? replays appreciated. I just cant deal with 111 with this.
I have a question: How do you deal with Banshee, Raven, Marine, SCV all in? The all in comes at around 9 minutes, the same time this attack comes, and you can't just defend against 4-5 banshees with 5 sentries. A decent Terran will hide the all-in and all you see is a bunker until the Observer comes into their base @ around 7 minutes. Is Phoenix is the answer? A Stargate will be ready in about a minute and until the attack comes you will have 2 Phoenixes chronoboosted, and the build is tight so won't have the gas to pump Phoenixes out of 2 Stargates, and as the expansion is slow you won't be able to mount a good amounts of Gateway units and the Immortals you invested in are pretty useless against this composition.
I tried this using 2 immortals leaving my base around the 8:50 mark against a friend who is Masters. I got shut down pretty hard because he had 2 medivacs out at like 9:20. Looks like he cut marauders and marines in order to do this. In many of the replays medivacs are not out that early ( which seems to be a huge factor in their success), is it becoming a common response to rush medivacs, or is that just something Terran's are doing more in general?
For the past month or so, every Masters Terran I play against tends to have Medivacs out and ready to drop you by 9:30. I suspect vs this build things aren't particularly different.
Why are so many people saying that a terran's first medivacs kill this build? Considering that getting medivacs with a reactor starport costs 150/100+150/100+50/50+200/200 = 650/450 - wouldn't the terran have almost no real army if he got medivacs this fast - and therefore die hard to the push? I assume it isn't just that drops are occuring before people move out - but is this it?
so I counted 4 zealots, 5 stalkers, 7 sentries and 3 immortals. Is that right? It's hard to tell. In any case, it looks really powerful. Would it work vs. zerg too, is my question. It sounds like it would deal very well vs. roach/ling right?
edit: also at what time does the attack hit, on average?
I don't know what it is about Asians, but on the Chinese server I face a fuckton more all-ins than on the US server.
In TvP especially, I've faced this build numerous times to varying degrees of success.
Since I always open 2 rax concussive marauders in TvP, I tend to do decent damage facing 1 gate into tech builds. My first marine will get FF'ed, but then I can kill at least 2 stalkers, a zealot, 5-6 probes, with my 3 + 2 marauders while expanding behind it at 33/35 supply.
The problem is, even when I do get ahead, I have very little production in the form of 2 tech lab'ed barracks, and immortals are just so fucking good against marauders and bunkers.
I've had to ninja scv scout the toss's natural, and if I don't see an expo after mine goes online I throw up 8 bunkers. Yes, EIGHT of them and that barely holds off a well-micro'ed immortal bust.
On June 20 2012 11:06 EngrishTeacher wrote: I don't know what it is about Asians, but on the Chinese server I face a fuckton more all-ins than on the US server.
In TvP especially, I've faced this build numerous times to varying degrees of success.
Since I always open 2 rax concussive marauders in TvP, I tend to do decent damage facing 1 gate into tech builds. My first marine will get FF'ed, but then I can kill at least 2 stalkers, a zealot, 5-6 probes, with my 3 + 2 marauders while expanding behind it at 33/35 supply.
The problem is, even when I do get ahead, I have very little production in the form of 2 tech lab'ed barracks, and immortals are just so fucking good against marauders and bunkers.
I've had to ninja scv scout the toss's natural, and if I don't see an expo after mine goes online I throw up 8 bunkers. Yes, EIGHT of them and that barely holds off a well-micro'ed immortal bust.
On June 20 2012 11:06 EngrishTeacher wrote: I don't know what it is about Asians, but on the Chinese server I face a fuckton more all-ins than on the US server.
In TvP especially, I've faced this build numerous times to varying degrees of success.
Since I always open 2 rax concussive marauders in TvP, I tend to do decent damage facing 1 gate into tech builds. My first marine will get FF'ed, but then I can kill at least 2 stalkers, a zealot, 5-6 probes, with my 3 + 2 marauders while expanding behind it at 33/35 supply.
The problem is, even when I do get ahead, I have very little production in the form of 2 tech lab'ed barracks, and immortals are just so fucking good against marauders and bunkers.
I've had to ninja scv scout the toss's natural, and if I don't see an expo after mine goes online I throw up 8 bunkers. Yes, EIGHT of them and that barely holds off a well-micro'ed immortal bust.
There is no need to be so racist mate.
Dude, I'm mixed, half Asian. No racism intended at all, merely stating a trend that I've noticed on the SEA, China, and Korea servers in comparison to US and EU.
On June 20 2012 11:06 EngrishTeacher wrote: I don't know what it is about Asians, but on the Chinese server I face a fuckton more all-ins than on the US server.
In TvP especially, I've faced this build numerous times to varying degrees of success.
Since I always open 2 rax concussive marauders in TvP, I tend to do decent damage facing 1 gate into tech builds. My first marine will get FF'ed, but then I can kill at least 2 stalkers, a zealot, 5-6 probes, with my 3 + 2 marauders while expanding behind it at 33/35 supply.
The problem is, even when I do get ahead, I have very little production in the form of 2 tech lab'ed barracks, and immortals are just so fucking good against marauders and bunkers.
I've had to ninja scv scout the toss's natural, and if I don't see an expo after mine goes online I throw up 8 bunkers. Yes, EIGHT of them and that barely holds off a well-micro'ed immortal bust.
This isn't a 1 Base build. It expands at 34 food, you just don't produce many Probes after throwing it down. It could probably be classed as somewhat of an all-in since you really need to do some sort of damage for it to work, but it's not like it's a 1 Base 4 Gate Robo all-in or something like that.
Bunkers don't really help. You attack the front ones and Forcefield the units that are in them. Kill the units. Move on to the next set of Bunkers. 8 Bunkers could be 16 Marines, which would help you more - you want to attack all at once, not from Bunkers.
I don't think you're very familiar with 2-rax marauder timings, but 3 marauders + 1 marine ARRIVE at the protoss ramp at 5:20-5:35 depending on map distance, that's roughly at ~25 supply. Vs. protoss builds that stays on 1 gate for the very early game (this 1 gate into robo build included), I ALWAYS do decent damage. I didn't say this was a 1-base build, but for the duration of my 2-rax pressure, the protoss is on 1 base with 1 gate and 1 robo.
And no, bunkers do help a ton. Since my expansion is up earlier than the toss's after the 2-rax pressure, plus the fact that I always score a few probe kills, the situation incites the toss to often all-in me in return with 3-4 gates + immortals. Even when I get stim right away with my next 100 gas and cut scvs at 33/35 for 2 more barracks, I cannot get out enough marines in time to defend so 6+ bunkers are my only real option to hold. And no, I don't get them in 2 rows, I get the bunkers in a concave so all marines would fire at the same time.
Haha I was unknowingly doing a build very similar to this in PvT, but hitting with 4 immortals. It's definitely very strong, but you can't do it blindly (like you say, must scout whether he's doing a 1/1/1). With such a fast observer, you should have plenty of time to respond though - I'll definitely be copy/pasting this and using it occasionally. Thanks!
EPT
