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On February 07 2012 22:23 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 22:10 cydial wrote:
/sigh
I hope nobody take offense when I say this...
Does anyone else feel that this matchup is super reactive to what the protoss is doing to the point that if you don't just HAPPEN to have the perfect unit comp as in ghosts for templar or in this case immortal or the right number of vikings you're dead?
Lately I've been playing protoss and it feels like I'm always in control of the game unless the terran does some all in involing most of not all their scvs.
Perhaps the next great terran strat will be something that involves mass ghost as seen in one of the IPL games (I forget which one).
However, right now it's just downright silly how strong protoss early pushes are against a macro style terran.... I could say the same thing about early-game Terran pushes against a 1gate FE. Don't have the right number of Zealot/Stalker/Sentry? You're dead. Can't scout whether it is 2rax with a CC or 3rax all-in? You're dead. Etc.
Right, but the late game, aka a macro game is what the end game of SC2 is.
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Italy12248 Posts
On February 07 2012 23:10 cydial wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 22:23 Sated wrote:On February 07 2012 22:10 cydial wrote:
/sigh
I hope nobody take offense when I say this...
Does anyone else feel that this matchup is super reactive to what the protoss is doing to the point that if you don't just HAPPEN to have the perfect unit comp as in ghosts for templar or in this case immortal or the right number of vikings you're dead?
Lately I've been playing protoss and it feels like I'm always in control of the game unless the terran does some all in involing most of not all their scvs.
Perhaps the next great terran strat will be something that involves mass ghost as seen in one of the IPL games (I forget which one).
However, right now it's just downright silly how strong protoss early pushes are against a macro style terran.... I could say the same thing about early-game Terran pushes against a 1gate FE. Don't have the right number of Zealot/Stalker/Sentry? You're dead. Can't scout whether it is 2rax with a CC or 3rax all-in? You're dead. Etc. Right, but the late game, aka a macro game is what the end game of SC2 is.
But then you do have the means to scout with scans and even drops. Missing a scout timing is not as bad as feeling forced to flip a coin because you have no means of knowing exactly what the other guy is doing.
PvT is definitely reactive for terran in terms of tech choices (ghost vs vikings specifically), and i don't see anything wrong with that honestly. In terms of moving out on the map and being active it's the complete opposite however. For Protoss it's either allin (6gate, zealot/archon, fast colossus etc) or defend drops until you are 3/3 and maxed.
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On February 07 2012 23:23 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 23:10 cydial wrote:On February 07 2012 22:23 Sated wrote:On February 07 2012 22:10 cydial wrote:
/sigh
I hope nobody take offense when I say this...
Does anyone else feel that this matchup is super reactive to what the protoss is doing to the point that if you don't just HAPPEN to have the perfect unit comp as in ghosts for templar or in this case immortal or the right number of vikings you're dead?
Lately I've been playing protoss and it feels like I'm always in control of the game unless the terran does some all in involing most of not all their scvs.
Perhaps the next great terran strat will be something that involves mass ghost as seen in one of the IPL games (I forget which one).
However, right now it's just downright silly how strong protoss early pushes are against a macro style terran.... I could say the same thing about early-game Terran pushes against a 1gate FE. Don't have the right number of Zealot/Stalker/Sentry? You're dead. Can't scout whether it is 2rax with a CC or 3rax all-in? You're dead. Etc. Right, but the late game, aka a macro game is what the end game of SC2 is. There are more ways to scout in the late-game and Terran already has one of the best scouting methods available (scans).
Which is why I was talking more about the early to mid game where immortal pushes and later on colossus pushes are common...
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Italy12248 Posts
On February 08 2012 00:04 cydial wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 23:23 Sated wrote:On February 07 2012 23:10 cydial wrote:On February 07 2012 22:23 Sated wrote:On February 07 2012 22:10 cydial wrote:
/sigh
I hope nobody take offense when I say this...
Does anyone else feel that this matchup is super reactive to what the protoss is doing to the point that if you don't just HAPPEN to have the perfect unit comp as in ghosts for templar or in this case immortal or the right number of vikings you're dead?
Lately I've been playing protoss and it feels like I'm always in control of the game unless the terran does some all in involing most of not all their scvs.
Perhaps the next great terran strat will be something that involves mass ghost as seen in one of the IPL games (I forget which one).
However, right now it's just downright silly how strong protoss early pushes are against a macro style terran.... I could say the same thing about early-game Terran pushes against a 1gate FE. Don't have the right number of Zealot/Stalker/Sentry? You're dead. Can't scout whether it is 2rax with a CC or 3rax all-in? You're dead. Etc. Right, but the late game, aka a macro game is what the end game of SC2 is. There are more ways to scout in the late-game and Terran already has one of the best scouting methods available (scans). Which is why I was talking more about the early to mid game where immortal pushes and later on colossus pushes are common...
Quoting you:
ghosts for templar or in this case immortal or the right number of vikings you're dead?
The difference between fast colossus and immortal busts are 1) gasses taken at the natural 2) unit count; fast colossus will cut units, immortal busts won't 3) probe count at the natural, really fast immortal busts like puzzle's cut probes at 30ish 4) if you get lucky, a freakin robo bay in the main around 8 minutes.
Honestly this discussion gets more useless by the minute.
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You dont need the sentry so fast since with a stalker u are safe enough to put down the robotics first.The sentry after robotics arrive long time before the first marauder and the second second sentry is in time too if something fails and u werent efficient enough with the first forcefield.This allows you go get the observer much faster and be safer when expanding since you can see whats been thrown at you.I've been using this build for a while now and it's been very common on the GM/high master scene lately in Europe.
ps : if u start arguing about the sentry bulking energy being the reason for getting it first i have to say it actually generates a really small amount of energy in that time (like 10) but your robotics is a healthy 20 ingame secs earlier.
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double post sry. delete plz
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On February 07 2012 19:38 avilo wrote:Insanely strong all-in/timing attack, and sadly very, very easy to execute. You need 6-8 bunkers to hold it, or pure marines. If you built any marauders you are in danger of losing. It's just another all-in which is crazy...because you have to 100% randomly predict protoss is going to do this build early on in the game, because if you do not you will only have 2-3 bunkers and you lose. You also have to have made pure marines to hold it efficiently...and protoss can just react to that by simply not attacking...so... 1) You execute this build - you can outright kill Terran. 2) You see they react the only possible way they can (8 bunkers or mass marines) and you simply don't attack, take a third, and come out with a free advantage ... It's so good makes me cry  lol. All protoss should add this to their arsenal though for obvious reasons, if I was protoss i would :D
I don't see how this is any different than the 2-1-1 builds Terran was/is doing. It was nigh unbeatable for a good while, Protoss started figuring it out and Blizzard gave the Immortal a range buff and now it's at least feasible to hold with good game planning and micro. I am sure that someone is going to develop a strategy to combat the immortal bust, it will just take some time.
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How do you hold 2rax with it?
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The post was great. But its the Song that made this for me
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On February 08 2012 01:01 Harstem wrote:
How do you hold 2rax with it?
Scout with probe/stalker, cancel observer, chrono immortal. Immortals are really good against small numbers of bio. I believe one of the replays I posted on the first page shows 2 rax defence on XC.
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On February 07 2012 23:23 Sated wrote:
There are more ways to scout in the late-game and Terran already has one of the best scouting methods available (scans).
Scans are actually not useful in a situation like this - scanning at that point in a game is super-reliant on luck; it's just too easy for P to hide their tech and their army, and you end up wasting 5 marines.
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On February 08 2012 01:01 Harstem wrote:
How do you hold 2rax with it?
lol? forcefield ramp bro
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With the 12 probe scout, what (other than of course cheese) are you looking for? Is there anything you might see that would cause you to abandon this unit composition and go for something more conservative (like with more stalkers)?
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On February 05 2012 14:41 Whatson wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 14:30 mlspmatt wrote:
This build is a big problem. Bunkers are almost useless vs it. There's no time to get banshees or ghosts. Terran doesn't have anything at that stage of the game to deal with the century/immortal combination unless it was a part of their planned build like 1-1-1 or mass rin or early ghosts. TvP has been a mess of a MU for a long time, I'm sure it gives Blizzard many headaches. Definitely agree. PvZ/ZvP? Ehh its reasonably balanced, mostly map-dependent IMO. ZvT/TvZ? Fine, incredibly fun to play and watch. TvP/PvT? OMFG this matchup sucks, in terms of watching and playing from both sides. The win rates have swung back and forth so much in this matchup over the past year
hehe tvp/pvt is my favorite MU. In customs i play pvz, pvt and tvp. It is the most difficult MU to figure out but once you do it become very fun to abuse things the other side struggles against.
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On February 08 2012 00:57 turamn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 19:38 avilo wrote:Insanely strong all-in/timing attack, and sadly very, very easy to execute. You need 6-8 bunkers to hold it, or pure marines. If you built any marauders you are in danger of losing. It's just another all-in which is crazy...because you have to 100% randomly predict protoss is going to do this build early on in the game, because if you do not you will only have 2-3 bunkers and you lose. You also have to have made pure marines to hold it efficiently...and protoss can just react to that by simply not attacking...so... 1) You execute this build - you can outright kill Terran. 2) You see they react the only possible way they can (8 bunkers or mass marines) and you simply don't attack, take a third, and come out with a free advantage ... It's so good makes me cry lol. All protoss should add this to their arsenal though for obvious reasons, if I was protoss i would :D I don't see how this is any different than the 2-1-1 builds Terran was/is doing. It was nigh unbeatable for a good while, Protoss started figuring it out and Blizzard gave the Immortal a range buff and now it's at least feasible to hold with good game planning and micro. I am sure that someone is going to develop a strategy to combat the immortal bust, it will just take some time.
This 2-base immortal build can be compared to 1-1-1 before the patch. Insanely hard to hold, relatively easy to execute, difficult to scout. Somebody will figure out a decent counter though, there always is a solution ^^
Or it could just be me being optimistic...
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On February 08 2012 02:07 Whatson wrote:
This 2-base immortal build can be compared to 1-1-1 before the patch. Insanely hard to hold, relatively easy to execute, difficult to scout. Somebody will figure out a decent counter though, there always is a solution ^^
Or it could just be me being optimistic...
Difficult to scout? Plays terran, never heard of scans. If you don't use your scan, you're playing greedy. You underestimate the skill it takes to place the correct forcefields to pull this off. Try it on ladder against players who just pump from 4-5 rax. The reason this works well at higher levels is that it exploits a meta game timing, where there is a chance that the terran is playing slightly greedy, either teching too hard or getting a quick third, which is when this hits. Against slightly safer play i.e. more rax, more rines, faster stim, this is iffy. Relying on mass bunkers is bad, since they evaporate, and the units in them become fodder to forcefields.
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On February 08 2012 02:59 chestnutcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 02:07 Whatson wrote:
This 2-base immortal build can be compared to 1-1-1 before the patch. Insanely hard to hold, relatively easy to execute, difficult to scout. Somebody will figure out a decent counter though, there always is a solution ^^
Or it could just be me being optimistic... Difficult to scout? Plays terran, never heard of scans. If you don't use your scan, you're playing greedy. You underestimate the skill it takes to place the correct forcefields to pull this off. Try it on ladder against players who just pump from 4-5 rax. The reason this works well at higher levels is that it exploits a meta game timing, where there is a chance that the terran is playing slightly greedy, either teching too hard or getting a quick third, which is when this hits. Against slightly safer play i.e. more rax, more rines, faster stim, this is iffy. Relying on mass bunkers is bad, since they evaporate, and the units in them become fodder to forcefields.
if protoss isnt brain dead your scan will reveal nothing
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Italy12248 Posts
On February 08 2012 03:15 jupiter6 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 02:59 chestnutcc wrote:On February 08 2012 02:07 Whatson wrote:
This 2-base immortal build can be compared to 1-1-1 before the patch. Insanely hard to hold, relatively easy to execute, difficult to scout. Somebody will figure out a decent counter though, there always is a solution ^^
Or it could just be me being optimistic... Difficult to scout? Plays terran, never heard of scans. If you don't use your scan, you're playing greedy. You underestimate the skill it takes to place the correct forcefields to pull this off. Try it on ladder against players who just pump from 4-5 rax. The reason this works well at higher levels is that it exploits a meta game timing, where there is a chance that the terran is playing slightly greedy, either teching too hard or getting a quick third, which is when this hits. Against slightly safer play i.e. more rax, more rines, faster stim, this is iffy. Relying on mass bunkers is bad, since they evaporate, and the units in them become fodder to forcefields. if protoss isnt brain dead your scan will reveal nothing
No gasses at the natural, few probes present, a later nexus than normal if you he opens 2gate robo (which puzzle does) are all scoutable.
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On February 08 2012 03:15 jupiter6 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 02:59 chestnutcc wrote:On February 08 2012 02:07 Whatson wrote:
This 2-base immortal build can be compared to 1-1-1 before the patch. Insanely hard to hold, relatively easy to execute, difficult to scout. Somebody will figure out a decent counter though, there always is a solution ^^
Or it could just be me being optimistic... Difficult to scout? Plays terran, never heard of scans. If you don't use your scan, you're playing greedy. You underestimate the skill it takes to place the correct forcefields to pull this off. Try it on ladder against players who just pump from 4-5 rax. The reason this works well at higher levels is that it exploits a meta game timing, where there is a chance that the terran is playing slightly greedy, either teching too hard or getting a quick third, which is when this hits. Against slightly safer play i.e. more rax, more rines, faster stim, this is iffy. Relying on mass bunkers is bad, since they evaporate, and the units in them become fodder to forcefields. if protoss isnt brain dead your scan will reveal nothing
You don't even need to scan. The high amount of early sentries is probably the biggest tell that a bust is coming (either a 6-gate or Immortal bust). If you just sit in your base and don't poke out and scout at all for 10 mins into the game however... whose fault is that exactly?
The 1-1-1 is also not that hard to scout exactly. It's a 1-base strat and as Protoss the reaction is the same to any 1-base strat, to get an observer in there ASAP while watching for any marine/scv all-in.
It seems to me the current "standard" Terran play in TvP is just cutting a ton of cornors in the first 9 mins or so of the game, getting a fast 3rd CC and/or double engi bays, etc, and over-relying on bunkers. Having tech (ghosts or medivacs) and a good army size and NOT relying on bunkers and a small amount of units is the way to stop this push. Flanking is also incredibly effective vs. this push, much how flanking is very effective at defending the 1/1/1. A lot of terrans hide behind their bunkers vs. this push, but that is wrong way to go about this given the ample amount of FFs Protoss has at his disposal when this push comes.
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EPT
