Planetary Fortress Rush - Is it Viable #3

Plexa

Aotearoa39261 Posts

October 14 2010 07:56 GMT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OmpnfL5PCw

There is a fair number of "Will it X" type shows around these days, but really nothing for SC2 at the moment. We all know that the game is young and that anything could be viable (as seen by AugustWerra's BC rush against Iron) so the question naturally arises - what strategies work, and what strategies do not work.

The idea is simple, pick a counter intuitive strategy, get 5 games of it in action and determine whether or not the build, strategy, unit composition - whatever - is viable in a competitive setting.

My credentials? I'm a Protoss player. I've watched over 600 replays since the start of retail (no joke). I'm #41 on the SEA server (although I've been laddering on euro recently). I regularly play practice games against Jimdiddy (Zerg on SEA, #30 at the moment but was top 10 last week), Camlito (Zerg on SEA, #43), Youngminii (#52 on SEA, Protoss, has been top 30), Pachi (terrible Zerg on SEA

adorable staff member though), Saracen (Zerg on NA, top 100) infinity21 (top 100 Terran on NA) and Corinthos (another good Terran on NA). Occasionally I get games with better players like Naruto (who is awesome) and I bounce ideas off of Nazgul and Jinro occasionally.

Planetary Fortress Rush - Is it Viable?

So by now we've all seen TLOwnage and we all know that a PF rush is an amazing humiliation strategy. However when you try to pull it off yourself you will quickly realise that no, Planetary Fortress Rushes just do not work. At least not in the same way that TLO made them work in his placement matches.

So as usual, I was on the bus thinking about SC2 strategies contemplating the uses of the Planetary Fortress. What we know is that the PF is ridiculously strong, and with a few SCV repairing they are immortal. So how can we exploit this, and in particular, how can we exploit this against Protoss? I was thinking some kind of PF proxy in the Protoss natural after a Bunker contain - it seemed viable since no Protoss in his right mind would attack into a bunker or two full of maraduers/marines. But then TheStC did the Theorycraft for me:

Replay: TheStC vs Lyn

The Proxy CC - an integral part of the strategy

TheStC is well known for his incredibly abusive TvP play, this build lives up to that perfectly. Lyn plays a 1 Gate 1 Robo expand build, not the best fast expand build in the world, but certainly viable against most Terran builds. StC counters with a 2rax/PF rush - and wins beautifully.

The build works because the Protoss needs to work out where to dedicate his forces. If he tries to hold the expansion - he will die, so that's out of the question. Next, he needs to decide whether he wants to defend the Marauder/Marine/SCV push or the Planetary Fortress that is building in his main - he can't split his forces since he has so few troops. It's absolutely brilliant - but is it a one off build? Or is it actually viable even if you know it is coming?

The build theStC used was as follows:
+ Show Spoiler +

- 10 Depo
- 12 Rax
- 13 Scout (don't lose it, you'll need it to proxy a CC)
- 15 Gas
- 15 Rine
- 16 OC
- 16 Depo
- 16 Rine
- 18 Rax
- 19 Tech Lab
- 20 Marauder
So far the build is very standard, but then
- 23 Proxy Command Center
- 23 Reactor
- 23 Marauder
- 25 Depo
- 25 Concussive
- 25 SCV
- 26 E-Bay (hidden, if possible)
- 26 Marauder
- 28 SCV
- 29/30 Rine/Rine
- Move out to clear any scouting Probes
- 31 Maraduer
- 33 Depo
- 33 SCV
- 34/35 Rine/Rine
- Rally both barracks to P natural, move forces into attacking distance
- 36 SCV
- Around now your CC should finish, float it over to the P main
- Send 7 SCV + reinforcements to your troops
- As the CC comes into Protoss view, attack with forces, land the CC and start a PF immediately (it has a shorter build time than a Zealot...)
- As a variation, you can time it so that you load 5 SCV into the CC as it completes so when it pops you can repair it easier (the Corinthos variation!)

Unfortunately, I don't play Terran. But, I have many friends who do. Corinthos, the living streaming legend, agreed to help test out this build. He too was sceptical, until he saw TheStC execute it. So the next few games would be a true test for the build.

Game 1 - PF Rush vs my standard 3gate-Robo/expand

Replay

I don't think Corinthos had the timing exactly down like TheStC did, since I'm pretty sure his CC float was late. But we spawned close positions on Metal which made hiding the CC pretty difficult, nevertheless he manage to keep it hidden from my obs. His attack had more units than TheStC did too - nevertheless the rush came and...

Double Threat

For starters, I had to cancel my expansion - alright. Then I FF'd the ramp while trying to kill the CC and it morphed into a PF. The FF died, the units came up the ramp and I pulled my units off of the CC (probably a bad move, I don't know) and killed the units - but by then the PF had finished and 3 SCV had start repairing it and it was game over.

I was astounded at how quickly the game was over. You'd expect that a PF rush would be a slow agonising death, but no, it was a quick and painful slaughter. Just like Lyn, when you expand quickly you just don't have the units to be able to defend both places at once which ultimately cost me the game. What scary is that this wasn't even as refined as it could be.

Game 2 - PF Rush vs same as before

Replay

Corinthos was still working out the timings here, I went for a later expo (around 55ish) since I scouted some pressure, and his proxy CC was planted at 33. This was never going to work, and it didn't. The rush was easily fended off. Further, his decision to proxy at 7 was bad - the CC needs to be placed closer, like at the gold or the other main (we were cross positions again, hence why he tried to proxy elsewhere). So an experimental game, but nothing against the validity of this build.

Game 3 - PF Rush vs kcdc build

Replay

My theory was that fast expand builds would die to this, seeing as both Lyn's and Mana's FE builds got killed by this (my 3gaterobo expo is mana's build). So, I suspected this build would hard counter the kcdc build. Corinthos decided to put his CC at the close gold, I scouted this, and (as I say in game) I think to myself that he's expanding to the gold to get a better economy - so I'm going to power probes and pressure with units.

Of course, he's going for a PF rush instead

Garhhh

With 3 SCV inside that CC, there is no way I'm going to be taking that down easily. Meanwhile, he's pressuring my front with a mass of units. I manage to cut down his attack, but there isn't anything I can do about the PF building in my main. There isn't anything I can do and once again, game over.

Part of this win was luck, seeing as he built it at the gold and I reacted as if that was an expansion. If I hadn't have scouted it then maybe I would have had more units or more tech or something. Again, I don't think Corinthos had the build refined as it could be, but still, a very scary build to play against. I don't think the kcdc build really has a chance against this thing.

Game 4 - PF Rush vs 3gate VR

Replay

If a Protoss decides to go balls to the walls aggression with the 3gate VR build, I expected that the PF rush would be completely destroyed. So the game unfolds as usual for Corinthos while I start massing up units as a good Protoss does. I'm able to out muscle Corinthos's army and this was the result:

muhahaha

Without the forces to supplement the rush, the PF rush is completely useless and defended with ease. The game is mine without me breaking a sweat.

I don't think this is an instant loss though. I think the best bet is to float the proxied CC to a hidden expansion and try use that as an expansion while defending the VRs with many bunkers at the ramp (and turrets, since you have an e-bay). I think it's playable, not optimal, but playable.

Game 5 - PF Rush vs 3gate VR again

Replay

This was pretty much the same as the game before. Corinthos proxied in a poor position, but it didn't matter - my pressure crushed him mercilessly. Although to be fair, many Terran builds die to this build.

Game 6 - PF Rush in a KoTH match!!

Replay

This was a pretty cool game, he went for Proxy Void Ray (without the 3gate) while Corinthos went for the PF rush. The game turned into a base trade after Corinthos didn't notice the VR's destroying his base - eventually the Protoss won - but the game was Corinthos's to lose really! Fun game to watch.

So, what do I think about this build? If the Protoss goes for a sub-45 psi expand against a refined PF rush - the game should be over in favour of the Terran. It's a really difficult rush to hold since you're so low on units. For that reason, other low unit builds like Colossus Rush and Phoenix Rush would also probably die to it. For more standard high units builds and aggressive builds, like 4gate and 3gate VR, I doubt this rush can work. However, the situation is still playable since you essentially have a hidden expansion so with some bunkers, you can probably defend the pressure.

Planetary Fortress Rush - Is it Viable?
Situational

You'll have a really hard time against high pressure builds, but it's almost an automatic win against fast expanding builds. I haven't explored the follow ups from the build after using the Proxy CC as a hidden expansion against a pressure build, but it seems plausible that it would still be playable.

If you have something you think would be good for "Is it Viable?" please shoot me a PM! Please try to stay civil in this thread, keep it imbalance free (i.e. dont bitch about anything being OP) and try to remain open minded. I'm not claiming this is the be all and end all of TvP, I'm simply trying to point out alternatives that are viable - while Terrans have it pretty good in the early game at the moment, maybe this build will get a few smiles from your opponents!!

Raislin

United States144 Posts

October 14 2010 08:17 GMT

If the Protoss player sees it coming and does it well enough, perhaps the CC could be completely blocked from landing by a single probe. It'd be a bit more micro intensive, but remove the seeming "auto-win."

Interesting stuff. It'd be a fun thing to deal with lol

Plexa

Aotearoa39261 Posts

October 14 2010 08:19 GMT

On October 14 2010 17:17 Raislin wrote:
If the Protoss player sees it coming and does it well enough, perhaps the CC could be completely blocked from landing by a single probe. It'd be a bit more micro intensive, but remove the seeming "auto-win."

Interesting stuff. It'd be a fun thing to deal with lol

It's possible, depends on the base layout and how early you see it coming. The hardest thing about it is dealing with the 2rax pressure in your face, you'd need precision micro to FF and stop the CC from landing!

On October 14 2010 17:21 abominare wrote:
Not really unless your opponent makes a mistake. FF ramp use a single unit to prevent the command center from landing even if its just a probe. It definitely requires your opponent to manage to things at once but its one of those things thats viable until people know what to do

my bad didnt refresh after watching replay. On the plus side you could just abort and move your cc away to expand.

Since Protoss lost his expo, Terran might just be able to come out decent even if the PF doesn't land (like floating to an expansion, as you suggested). Depends on the number of SCV killed and the situation at hand. Also, the CC will be able to land before the probe can get there if you don't have scouting pylons around your base (which is certainly possible if you're kcdc'ing or fast expanding).

abominare

United States1216 Posts

October 14 2010 08:21 GMT

Not really unless your opponent makes a mistake. FF ramp use a single unit to prevent the command center from landing even if its just a probe. It definitely requires your opponent to manage to things at once but its one of those things thats viable until people know what to do

my bad didnt refresh after watching replay. On the plus side you could just abort and move your cc away to expand.

Ozzie

Netherlands14 Posts

October 14 2010 08:27 GMT

Nice story

I've been trying out something similar to this build with a friend, and we noticed one thing that can totally ruin the PF rush... If you see it coming even a few secs before it reaches your plateau, you can stop it from landing with one aptly micro'ed unit. The fact that we knew it was coming might've influenced this, but it's still a massive bummer

EDIT - too slow

osten

Sweden316 Posts

October 14 2010 08:30 GMT

Cool read, nice job!

But your conclution "situational"... Um well we often come to that conclution here and that's how starcraft deux works. It's so dynamic that going into specifics just creates a plethora of possibilities and you need to think in reeeally broad strokes always when theorizing. When playing you need to be extremely dynamic too. Which is why I like it =)

But yes, it can always be blocked by a probe so maybe it relies on the noob factor too much.

Plexa

Aotearoa39261 Posts

October 14 2010 08:32 GMT

On October 14 2010 17:30 osten wrote:
Cool read, nice job!

But your conclution "situational"... Um well we often come to that conclution here and that's how starcraft deux works. It's so dynamic that going into specifics just creates a plethora of possibilities and you need to think in reeeally broad strokes always when theorizing. When playing you need to be extremely dynamic too. Which is why I like it =)

But yes, it can always be blocked by a probe so maybe it relies on the noob factor too much.

I would challenge you to watch any of the replays posted (except games 4 and 5) and watch from the FPview of the player and see if you would be able to get a probe there by the time you see it.

Raislin

United States144 Posts

October 14 2010 08:32 GMT

On October 14 2010 17:19 Plexa wrote:
It's possible, depends on the base layout and how early you see it coming. The hardest thing about it is dealing with the 2rax pressure in your face, you'd need precision micro to FF and stop the CC from landing!

Yes, indeed. Unfortunately, I think most Protoss base layouts tend to be clustered around the Nexus (I know mine are...), which is all the better for the PF. Considering FE builds in PvT are already micro intensive when dealing with that early pressure, I'd definitely put it in the Terran's favor. I certainly don't have the APM required to handle heavy micro on two fronts.

How's it work out if you immediately pull all of your probes once the CC lands? If you have enough for a surround, maybe it'd die fast enough (and prevent SCV repair)?

Well, if you just forcefield the ramp, then you're looking to run into the little problem of losing your natural, since we're talking FE builds. Of course, if you kill the CC before it transforms and don't lose any probes, then I guess you're not really that far behind.

On October 14 2010 17:32 Plexa wrote:
I would challenge you to watch any of the replays posted (except games 4 and 5) and watch from the FPview of the player and see if you would be able to get a probe there by the time you see it.

I'll take that challenge. Spotting pylons are something I definitely use. I've even considered using spotting pylons in various parts of the map to spot those damn drops that always seem to catch my army out of position (then cause a base race where I lose my whole fucking base and, if I'm unlucky, he lifts to an island).

sleepingdog

Austria6145 Posts

October 14 2010 08:33 GMT

lol I saw the rep a while ago and felt SO bad for lyn....wc3 pro getting demolished in such an embarassing manner right on gisado for everyone to observe

I really think you need immortals vs this, otherwise the CC...just...won't...die....; hopefully nobody does this EVER vs me

MrBitter

United States2940 Posts

October 14 2010 08:37 GMT

#10

After reading the thread title I was not expecting a positive review.

After reading the thread, all I can think is "does Terran really need MORE options?"

lol

Great job once again!

kzn

United States1218 Posts

October 14 2010 08:41 GMT

#11

Do you think this is identifiable with proactive scouting of the front, or does it represent a rock to the scissors of P fast expand builds?

Luoson

New Zealand153 Posts

October 14 2010 08:44 GMT

#12

Doesn't matter what strategy you do, this is very easily countered by just not letting the CC land. Someone tried this vs me after i had watched the replay of stc doing it. I just kept a probe constantly under his CC and that was game. Otherwise if he landed it quickly it would properly be to far away to do any damage to anything important

EtherealDeath

United States8366 Posts

October 14 2010 10:06 GMT

#13

Just pull probes and kill the planetary

Me vs Warden (2217 Terran) @ Metalopolis. Spawn at close positions.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/90098-2v2-terran-protoss-metalopolis#rd:dna

Plexa

Aotearoa39261 Posts

October 14 2010 11:34 GMT

#14

On October 14 2010 17:44 Luoson wrote:
Doesn't matter what strategy you do, this is very easily countered by just not letting the CC land. Someone tried this vs me after i had watched the replay of stc doing it. I just kept a probe constantly under his CC and that was game. Otherwise if he landed it quickly it would properly be to far away to do any damage to anything important

I'd like to see a replay of that

an interesting counter to the probe strat would be dropping SCVs from your CC (you can do that) and forcing the probes away

On October 14 2010 19:06 EtherealDeath wrote:
Just pull probes and kill the planetary

Me vs Warden (2217 Terran) @ Metalopolis. Spawn at close positions.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/90098-2v2-terran-protoss-metalopolis#rd:dna

Nice defence, although Warden did TheStC's build perfectly - he didn't bring any SCVs along. If he had done what Corinthos did and threw a few SCVs in the CC or brought 7 SCVs along in that attack, game might have been different since even 3 SCVs repairing that PF will save it

Dno, have to do some more testing I think!

Although the biggest problem was that you didn't try to expand

I'm not making any claims about how good the build is against non-FE Protoss builds, just that it's really fucking good against FE protoss.

EDIT: actually what would be an interesting variation is if you were one basing without gates (i.e. have more units than a gate robo gate build) you keep the CC flying and land in the natural and use the PF to contain the Protoss (with bunkers added later). Would be interesting!

On October 14 2010 17:41 kzn wrote:
Do you think this is identifiable with proactive scouting of the front, or does it represent a rock to the scissors of P fast expand builds?

Impossible to scout - just looks like any 2rax build. Unless you see the proxy CC or the ebay, you're completely in the dark.

Rassy

Netherlands2308 Posts

October 14 2010 11:45 GMT

#15

Dont think the pf rush with landing in his base is viable since landing can be prevented by 2 workers
Do think some variations might be verry good,and would love to see them tested out by good players
Maybe take the enemys natural verry early with a pf or use it to block a crucial choke near the opponents base and use it more strategically instead of tactically

GrassEater

Sweden417 Posts

October 14 2010 12:23 GMT

#16

Maybe it is possible to work out a simcity with pylonst that unables the planitary fortress to land near something important.

evanthebouncy!

United States12796 Posts

October 14 2010 12:32 GMT

#17

hahaha nice reports

gREIFOCs

Argentina208 Posts

October 14 2010 14:00 GMT

#18

On October 14 2010 21:23 GrassEater wrote:
Maybe it is possible to work out a simcity with pylonst that unables the planitary fortress to land near something important.

That seem somewhat viable. What you should be looking for is for clustered buildings next to the main and a ring of pylons on the other side of the mineral line (the minerals and gas prevent landing on the other side). That way he can only land in the outer rim of your base, only in range of the pylons.

kcdc

United States2311 Posts

October 14 2010 17:14 GMT

#19

Haha, interesting. With a PF rush, I'd think the attacking MM force would have to be pretty small. With the small attacking force and long delay between P seeing the rush and the PF being completed (especially if the floating CC is seen by a spotter pylon) I'm guessing there's a way to micro your units and probes to deflect the attack even with a FE build, but I could see this rush dealing many a frustrating loss before P players know how to respond.

EtherealDeath

United States8366 Posts

October 14 2010 23:45 GMT

#20

On October 14 2010 20:34 Plexa wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'd like to see a replay of that

an interesting counter to the probe strat would be dropping SCVs from your CC (you can do that) and forcing the probes away

Show nested quote +

Dno, have to do some more testing I think!

Although the biggest problem was that you didn't try to expand

Show nested quote +

Impossible to scout - just looks like any 2rax build. Unless you see the proxy CC or the ebay, you're completely in the dark.

If he had brought scvs I'd have just surround those to and killed them

. Actually, he probably could have brought all his scvs, because I made sure there was no room around that planetary for an scv to repair. Not to mention, the 2 stalkers in the back could have picked the scvs off while I hold off his main attack slightly with force field, though I suppose he could have avoided that by not landing until my force fields expired. I certainly didnt have enough gas at the time to perma force field... though... if my scout had saw that many scvs coming in the attack (not just in the cc that i can't scout), I would have built a lot less stalker and a lot more sentry, and then he wouldn't be coming up anytime soon, and eventually due to the economic hit he's taking from pulling scvs, I would just roll him and get my expand up.

Also, my expand was about to go up, guess it depends on how fast is fast. I don't usually expand until my 3rd gate finishes, but then I expand around ~40 supply.

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