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Aotearoa39261 Posts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OmpnfL5PCw
There is a fair number of "Will it X" type shows around these days, but really nothing for SC2 at the moment. We all know that the game is young and that anything could be viable (as seen by AugustWerra's BC rush against Iron) so the question naturally arises - what strategies work, and what strategies do not work.
The idea is simple, pick a counter intuitive strategy, get 5 games of it in action and determine whether or not the build, strategy, unit composition - whatever - is viable in a competitive setting.
My credentials? I'm a Protoss player. I've watched over 600 replays since the start of retail (no joke). I'm #41 on the SEA server (although I've been laddering on euro recently). I regularly play practice games against Jimdiddy (Zerg on SEA, #30 at the moment but was top 10 last week), Camlito (Zerg on SEA, #43), Youngminii (#52 on SEA, Protoss, has been top 30), Pachi (terrible Zerg on SEA  adorable staff member though), Saracen (Zerg on NA, top 100) infinity21 (top 100 Terran on NA) and Corinthos (another good Terran on NA). Occasionally I get games with better players like Naruto (who is awesome) and I bounce ideas off of Nazgul and Jinro occasionally.
Planetary Fortress Rush - Is it Viable?
So by now we've all seen TLOwnage and we all know that a PF rush is an amazing humiliation strategy. However when you try to pull it off yourself you will quickly realise that no, Planetary Fortress Rushes just do not work. At least not in the same way that TLO made them work in his placement matches.
So as usual, I was on the bus thinking about SC2 strategies contemplating the uses of the Planetary Fortress. What we know is that the PF is ridiculously strong, and with a few SCV repairing they are immortal. So how can we exploit this, and in particular, how can we exploit this against Protoss? I was thinking some kind of PF proxy in the Protoss natural after a Bunker contain - it seemed viable since no Protoss in his right mind would attack into a bunker or two full of maraduers/marines. But then TheStC did the Theorycraft for me:
Replay: TheStC vs Lyn
The Proxy CC - an integral part of the strategy
TheStC is well known for his incredibly abusive TvP play, this build lives up to that perfectly. Lyn plays a 1 Gate 1 Robo expand build, not the best fast expand build in the world, but certainly viable against most Terran builds. StC counters with a 2rax/PF rush - and wins beautifully.
The build works because the Protoss needs to work out where to dedicate his forces. If he tries to hold the expansion - he will die, so that's out of the question. Next, he needs to decide whether he wants to defend the Marauder/Marine/SCV push or the Planetary Fortress that is building in his main - he can't split his forces since he has so few troops. It's absolutely brilliant - but is it a one off build? Or is it actually viable even if you know it is coming?
The build theStC used was as follows:
+ Show Spoiler +- 10 Depo
- 12 Rax
- 13 Scout (don't lose it, you'll need it to proxy a CC)
- 15 Gas
- 15 Rine
- 16 OC
- 16 Depo
- 16 Rine
- 18 Rax
- 19 Tech Lab
- 20 Marauder
So far the build is very standard, but then
- 23 Proxy Command Center
- 23 Reactor
- 23 Marauder
- 25 Depo
- 25 Concussive
- 25 SCV
- 26 E-Bay (hidden, if possible)
- 26 Marauder
- 28 SCV
- 29/30 Rine/Rine
- Move out to clear any scouting Probes
- 31 Maraduer
- 33 Depo
- 33 SCV
- 34/35 Rine/Rine
- Rally both barracks to P natural, move forces into attacking distance
- 36 SCV
- Around now your CC should finish, float it over to the P main
- Send 7 SCV + reinforcements to your troops
- As the CC comes into Protoss view, attack with forces, land the CC and start a PF immediately (it has a shorter build time than a Zealot...)
- As a variation, you can time it so that you load 5 SCV into the CC as it completes so when it pops you can repair it easier (the Corinthos variation!)
Unfortunately, I don't play Terran. But, I have many friends who do. Corinthos, the living streaming legend, agreed to help test out this build. He too was sceptical, until he saw TheStC execute it. So the next few games would be a true test for the build.
Game 1 - PF Rush vs my standard 3gate-Robo/expand
Replay
I don't think Corinthos had the timing exactly down like TheStC did, since I'm pretty sure his CC float was late. But we spawned close positions on Metal which made hiding the CC pretty difficult, nevertheless he manage to keep it hidden from my obs. His attack had more units than TheStC did too - nevertheless the rush came and...
For starters, I had to cancel my expansion - alright. Then I FF'd the ramp while trying to kill the CC and it morphed into a PF. The FF died, the units came up the ramp and I pulled my units off of the CC (probably a bad move, I don't know) and killed the units - but by then the PF had finished and 3 SCV had start repairing it and it was game over.
I was astounded at how quickly the game was over. You'd expect that a PF rush would be a slow agonising death, but no, it was a quick and painful slaughter. Just like Lyn, when you expand quickly you just don't have the units to be able to defend both places at once which ultimately cost me the game. What scary is that this wasn't even as refined as it could be.
Game 2 - PF Rush vs same as before
Replay
Corinthos was still working out the timings here, I went for a later expo (around 55ish) since I scouted some pressure, and his proxy CC was planted at 33. This was never going to work, and it didn't. The rush was easily fended off. Further, his decision to proxy at 7 was bad - the CC needs to be placed closer, like at the gold or the other main (we were cross positions again, hence why he tried to proxy elsewhere). So an experimental game, but nothing against the validity of this build.
Game 3 - PF Rush vs kcdc build
Replay
My theory was that fast expand builds would die to this, seeing as both Lyn's and Mana's FE builds got killed by this (my 3gaterobo expo is mana's build). So, I suspected this build would hard counter the kcdc build. Corinthos decided to put his CC at the close gold, I scouted this, and (as I say in game) I think to myself that he's expanding to the gold to get a better economy - so I'm going to power probes and pressure with units.
Of course, he's going for a PF rush instead 
With 3 SCV inside that CC, there is no way I'm going to be taking that down easily. Meanwhile, he's pressuring my front with a mass of units. I manage to cut down his attack, but there isn't anything I can do about the PF building in my main. There isn't anything I can do and once again, game over.
Part of this win was luck, seeing as he built it at the gold and I reacted as if that was an expansion. If I hadn't have scouted it then maybe I would have had more units or more tech or something. Again, I don't think Corinthos had the build refined as it could be, but still, a very scary build to play against. I don't think the kcdc build really has a chance against this thing.
Game 4 - PF Rush vs 3gate VR
Replay
If a Protoss decides to go balls to the walls aggression with the 3gate VR build, I expected that the PF rush would be completely destroyed. So the game unfolds as usual for Corinthos while I start massing up units as a good Protoss does. I'm able to out muscle Corinthos's army and this was the result:
Without the forces to supplement the rush, the PF rush is completely useless and defended with ease. The game is mine without me breaking a sweat.
I don't think this is an instant loss though. I think the best bet is to float the proxied CC to a hidden expansion and try use that as an expansion while defending the VRs with many bunkers at the ramp (and turrets, since you have an e-bay). I think it's playable, not optimal, but playable.
Game 5 - PF Rush vs 3gate VR again
Replay
This was pretty much the same as the game before. Corinthos proxied in a poor position, but it didn't matter - my pressure crushed him mercilessly. Although to be fair, many Terran builds die to this build.
Game 6 - PF Rush in a KoTH match!!
Replay
This was a pretty cool game, he went for Proxy Void Ray (without the 3gate) while Corinthos went for the PF rush. The game turned into a base trade after Corinthos didn't notice the VR's destroying his base - eventually the Protoss won - but the game was Corinthos's to lose really! Fun game to watch.
So, what do I think about this build? If the Protoss goes for a sub-45 psi expand against a refined PF rush - the game should be over in favour of the Terran. It's a really difficult rush to hold since you're so low on units. For that reason, other low unit builds like Colossus Rush and Phoenix Rush would also probably die to it. For more standard high units builds and aggressive builds, like 4gate and 3gate VR, I doubt this rush can work. However, the situation is still playable since you essentially have a hidden expansion so with some bunkers, you can probably defend the pressure.
Planetary Fortress Rush - Is it Viable?
Situational
You'll have a really hard time against high pressure builds, but it's almost an automatic win against fast expanding builds. I haven't explored the follow ups from the build after using the Proxy CC as a hidden expansion against a pressure build, but it seems plausible that it would still be playable.
If you have something you think would be good for "Is it Viable?" please shoot me a PM! Please try to stay civil in this thread, keep it imbalance free (i.e. dont bitch about anything being OP) and try to remain open minded. I'm not claiming this is the be all and end all of TvP, I'm simply trying to point out alternatives that are viable - while Terrans have it pretty good in the early game at the moment, maybe this build will get a few smiles from your opponents!!
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If the Protoss player sees it coming and does it well enough, perhaps the CC could be completely blocked from landing by a single probe. It'd be a bit more micro intensive, but remove the seeming "auto-win."
Interesting stuff. It'd be a fun thing to deal with lol
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 14 2010 17:17 Raislin wrote:
If the Protoss player sees it coming and does it well enough, perhaps the CC could be completely blocked from landing by a single probe. It'd be a bit more micro intensive, but remove the seeming "auto-win."
Interesting stuff. It'd be a fun thing to deal with lol It's possible, depends on the base layout and how early you see it coming. The hardest thing about it is dealing with the 2rax pressure in your face, you'd need precision micro to FF and stop the CC from landing!
On October 14 2010 17:21 abominare wrote:
Not really unless your opponent makes a mistake. FF ramp use a single unit to prevent the command center from landing even if its just a probe. It definitely requires your opponent to manage to things at once but its one of those things thats viable until people know what to do
my bad didnt refresh after watching replay. On the plus side you could just abort and move your cc away to expand. Since Protoss lost his expo, Terran might just be able to come out decent even if the PF doesn't land (like floating to an expansion, as you suggested). Depends on the number of SCV killed and the situation at hand. Also, the CC will be able to land before the probe can get there if you don't have scouting pylons around your base (which is certainly possible if you're kcdc'ing or fast expanding).
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Not really unless your opponent makes a mistake. FF ramp use a single unit to prevent the command center from landing even if its just a probe. It definitely requires your opponent to manage to things at once but its one of those things thats viable until people know what to do
my bad didnt refresh after watching replay. On the plus side you could just abort and move your cc away to expand.
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Nice story 
I've been trying out something similar to this build with a friend, and we noticed one thing that can totally ruin the PF rush... If you see it coming even a few secs before it reaches your plateau, you can stop it from landing with one aptly micro'ed unit. The fact that we knew it was coming might've influenced this, but it's still a massive bummer
EDIT - too slow 
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Cool read, nice job!
But your conclution "situational"... Um well we often come to that conclution here and that's how starcraft deux works. It's so dynamic that going into specifics just creates a plethora of possibilities and you need to think in reeeally broad strokes always when theorizing. When playing you need to be extremely dynamic too. Which is why I like it =)
But yes, it can always be blocked by a probe so maybe it relies on the noob factor too much.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 14 2010 17:30 osten wrote:
Cool read, nice job!
But your conclution "situational"... Um well we often come to that conclution here and that's how starcraft deux works. It's so dynamic that going into specifics just creates a plethora of possibilities and you need to think in reeeally broad strokes always when theorizing. When playing you need to be extremely dynamic too. Which is why I like it =)
But yes, it can always be blocked by a probe so maybe it relies on the noob factor too much.
I would challenge you to watch any of the replays posted (except games 4 and 5) and watch from the FPview of the player and see if you would be able to get a probe there by the time you see it.
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On October 14 2010 17:19 Plexa wrote:
It's possible, depends on the base layout and how early you see it coming. The hardest thing about it is dealing with the 2rax pressure in your face, you'd need precision micro to FF and stop the CC from landing!
Yes, indeed. Unfortunately, I think most Protoss base layouts tend to be clustered around the Nexus (I know mine are...), which is all the better for the PF. Considering FE builds in PvT are already micro intensive when dealing with that early pressure, I'd definitely put it in the Terran's favor. I certainly don't have the APM required to handle heavy micro on two fronts.
How's it work out if you immediately pull all of your probes once the CC lands? If you have enough for a surround, maybe it'd die fast enough (and prevent SCV repair)?
On October 14 2010 17:21 abominare wrote:
Not really unless your opponent makes a mistake. FF ramp use a single unit to prevent the command center from landing even if its just a probe. It definitely requires your opponent to manage to things at once but its one of those things thats viable until people know what to do
my bad didnt refresh after watching replay. On the plus side you could just abort and move your cc away to expand.
Well, if you just forcefield the ramp, then you're looking to run into the little problem of losing your natural, since we're talking FE builds. Of course, if you kill the CC before it transforms and don't lose any probes, then I guess you're not really that far behind.
On October 14 2010 17:32 Plexa wrote:
I would challenge you to watch any of the replays posted (except games 4 and 5) and watch from the FPview of the player and see if you would be able to get a probe there by the time you see it.
I'll take that challenge. Spotting pylons are something I definitely use. I've even considered using spotting pylons in various parts of the map to spot those damn drops that always seem to catch my army out of position (then cause a base race where I lose my whole fucking base and, if I'm unlucky, he lifts to an island).
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lol I saw the rep a while ago and felt SO bad for lyn....wc3 pro getting demolished in such an embarassing manner right on gisado for everyone to observe
I really think you need immortals vs this, otherwise the CC...just...won't...die....; hopefully nobody does this EVER vs me
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After reading the thread title I was not expecting a positive review.
After reading the thread, all I can think is "does Terran really need MORE options?"
lol
Great job once again!
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Do you think this is identifiable with proactive scouting of the front, or does it represent a rock to the scissors of P fast expand builds?
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Doesn't matter what strategy you do, this is very easily countered by just not letting the CC land. Someone tried this vs me after i had watched the replay of stc doing it. I just kept a probe constantly under his CC and that was game. Otherwise if he landed it quickly it would properly be to far away to do any damage to anything important
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
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Dont think the pf rush with landing in his base is viable since landing can be prevented by 2 workers
Do think some variations might be verry good,and would love to see them tested out by good players
Maybe take the enemys natural verry early with a pf or use it to block a crucial choke near the opponents base and use it more strategically instead of tactically
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Maybe it is possible to work out a simcity with pylonst that unables the planitary fortress to land near something important.
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hahaha nice reports
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On October 14 2010 21:23 GrassEater wrote:
Maybe it is possible to work out a simcity with pylonst that unables the planitary fortress to land near something important.
That seem somewhat viable. What you should be looking for is for clustered buildings next to the main and a ring of pylons on the other side of the mineral line (the minerals and gas prevent landing on the other side). That way he can only land in the outer rim of your base, only in range of the pylons.
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Haha, interesting. With a PF rush, I'd think the attacking MM force would have to be pretty small. With the small attacking force and long delay between P seeing the rush and the PF being completed (especially if the floating CC is seen by a spotter pylon) I'm guessing there's a way to micro your units and probes to deflect the attack even with a FE build, but I could see this rush dealing many a frustrating loss before P players know how to respond.
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On October 14 2010 20:34 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 17:44 Luoson wrote:
Doesn't matter what strategy you do, this is very easily countered by just not letting the CC land. Someone tried this vs me after i had watched the replay of stc doing it. I just kept a probe constantly under his CC and that was game. Otherwise if he landed it quickly it would properly be to far away to do any damage to anything important I'd like to see a replay of that an interesting counter to the probe strat would be dropping SCVs from your CC (you can do that) and forcing the probes away Nice defence, although Warden did TheStC's build perfectly - he didn't bring any SCVs along. If he had done what Corinthos did and threw a few SCVs in the CC or brought 7 SCVs along in that attack, game might have been different since even 3 SCVs repairing that PF will save it Dno, have to do some more testing I think! Although the biggest problem was that you didn't try to expand I'm not making any claims about how good the build is against non-FE Protoss builds, just that it's really fucking good against FE protoss. EDIT: actually what would be an interesting variation is if you were one basing without gates (i.e. have more units than a gate robo gate build) you keep the CC flying and land in the natural and use the PF to contain the Protoss (with bunkers added later). Would be interesting! Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 17:41 kzn wrote:
Do you think this is identifiable with proactive scouting of the front, or does it represent a rock to the scissors of P fast expand builds? Impossible to scout - just looks like any 2rax build. Unless you see the proxy CC or the ebay, you're completely in the dark.
If he had brought scvs I'd have just surround those to and killed them . Actually, he probably could have brought all his scvs, because I made sure there was no room around that planetary for an scv to repair. Not to mention, the 2 stalkers in the back could have picked the scvs off while I hold off his main attack slightly with force field, though I suppose he could have avoided that by not landing until my force fields expired. I certainly didnt have enough gas at the time to perma force field... though... if my scout had saw that many scvs coming in the attack (not just in the cc that i can't scout), I would have built a lot less stalker and a lot more sentry, and then he wouldn't be coming up anytime soon, and eventually due to the economic hit he's taking from pulling scvs, I would just roll him and get my expand up.
Also, my expand was about to go up, guess it depends on how fast is fast. I don't usually expand until my 3rd gate finishes, but then I expand around ~40 supply.
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Oh Plexa, you and your silly builds.
I would have thought a few Immortals and Zealots would take this thing out, no problem.
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Sounds like another excuse to open stargate to me!
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Can't you just deny the proxy? Put a probe on his scout scv permanently, which renders that SCV unable to build until it gets help, and then watch for another pulled SCV and follow that.
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On October 15 2010 13:48 kzn wrote:
Can't you just deny the proxy? Put a probe on his scout scv permanently, which renders that SCV unable to build until it gets help, and then watch for another pulled SCV and follow that.
They don't build the cc in your base.
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Nice read. Thanks for the build. I'll try it on ladder if my opponent goes fast Nexus :D
Plexa rocks as normal :D!!
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Corinthos tried it on my FE build, I didn't find any problem at all if you balance your attention and judge, usually the terran pressure is not nearly deadly enough. I just found it weird for him to push with mnm against a FE build so late and decided to just make a lot of units lol.
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/2059/SlaineD_vs_Corinthos
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FWIW, I just ran into Corinthos on ladder. I expected PF rush and I'm sure he expected 1-gate FE, and we both obliged each other's expectations. It wasn't a perfect experiment by any means given that we both had a good idea from the start what was coming, but it works as a data point. Also, he said he messed up the build order between engineering bay and CC which probably slowed him down ~15-30 seconds. Anyway, I had spotter pylons (which I always try to do anyway, but this time there was no chance I'd forget), saw the CC floating in and blocked it w/ probes while killing his MM push w/ zealot/stalker. The rush was easily deflected.
Replay if anyone's interested:
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Plexa, what do you think about using the PF at the expo instead of the main? Is that too much of an investment to just deny him an expo?
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On October 15 2010 14:47 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 13:48 kzn wrote:
Can't you just deny the proxy? Put a probe on his scout scv permanently, which renders that SCV unable to build until it gets help, and then watch for another pulled SCV and follow that. They don't build the cc in your base.
Uh, that doesn't matter?
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It should be mentioned that the 5 loaded SCVs are a good way to eliminate/chase away the blocking probe, provided the army is engaged elsewhere.
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On October 16 2010 10:13 SkyFrostSalvo wrote:
It should be mentioned that the 5 loaded SCVs are a good way to eliminate/chase away the blocking probe, provided the army is engaged elsewhere.
I pulled ~5 probes to block in case that happened. P can always use more probes if it comes to worker fights.
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On October 16 2010 09:26 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2010 14:47 EtherealDeath wrote:On October 15 2010 13:48 kzn wrote:
Can't you just deny the proxy? Put a probe on his scout scv permanently, which renders that SCV unable to build until it gets help, and then watch for another pulled SCV and follow that. They don't build the cc in your base. Uh, that doesn't matter?
Erm, unless you have maphack, lots of luck, or really damn good scouting skills, yes it does.
The CC should be proxied, meaning you usually won't see it being built. Either that or it's built as if it were an expansion CC.
Even if you continuously follow his scv scout it's not that big a deal for the Terran to either kill that probe following the scv with a marine or to simply send out a different scv while you're distracted or something.
This build is certainly stoppable, though.
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On October 17 2010 08:46 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2010 09:26 kzn wrote:On October 15 2010 14:47 EtherealDeath wrote:On October 15 2010 13:48 kzn wrote:
Can't you just deny the proxy? Put a probe on his scout scv permanently, which renders that SCV unable to build until it gets help, and then watch for another pulled SCV and follow that. They don't build the cc in your base. Uh, that doesn't matter? Erm, unless you have maphack, lots of luck, or really damn good scouting skills, yes it does. The CC should be proxied, meaning you usually won't see it being built. Either that or it's built as if it were an expansion CC.
If you just put a probe on his scouting SCV and park your scout probe outside his ramp, he has to fight off your scout probe and then pull a second SCV from his base to build a proxy cc, or force your probe off of his scout. There's no rule that says you cant follow their SCV forever.
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Or you know the Protoss could just not be stupid and select a single probe, right click it on the CC that is indicated by the big fat colored blob on his mini map to prevent it from landing and focus on holding the ramp, which is easily doable with almost all builds vs 2 rax pressure.
I love these Is it viables but I really wish you'd focus on stuff that cannot be countered by friggin monkey playing for the first time in his life.
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yeah right...lyn is so bad i cannot desribe it...
i love the is it viable series keep on doing it!!
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Ok I have viewed this thread and found that it DOES NOT take into consideration of a FAST RUSH PF. We are talking rushing with it, not as a proxy somewhere.
http://www.edepot.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=7
Look at above for the replay with 4 minutes 30 seconds rush. That is the time you LAND the CC on his base.
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Very interesting, good read. So this build is kind of rock paper scissors and sucess depends on what the oppenent does? Is there any ways to use an offensive PF build against other races than protoss? Is the timing too late to have a command center landed close enough to a zerg expo?
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the rush you figured out is no doubt funny and certainly effective against a FEing protoss. so solely for you theory (is it viable?) it works.
but the problem I have with it: I believe there are at least 1-2 strategies that are way more solid than this to prevent a FE. Why?
FEing protoss count on their sentrys. They mix in either stalkers or immortals (1gate robo). either way: If you 3rax pressure with MMG then you kill him AND have decent tech. In my practice against T I we figured out that this attack is safe against any shenanigans P has, to kill T early on from 4gate to voidrays to DTs + it kills an FE + you can get a lucky EMP on sentrys even if hes 1 basing "safely" behind his ramp.
qxy even pulled off a win with mass reapers against stalkers.
this PL build and anything else only shows one thing: you cannot FE with P in this MU if your not 100% certain that T is FEing.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
On October 17 2010 08:47 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2010 08:46 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 16 2010 09:26 kzn wrote:On October 15 2010 14:47 EtherealDeath wrote:On October 15 2010 13:48 kzn wrote:
Can't you just deny the proxy? Put a probe on his scout scv permanently, which renders that SCV unable to build until it gets help, and then watch for another pulled SCV and follow that. They don't build the cc in your base. Uh, that doesn't matter? Erm, unless you have maphack, lots of luck, or really damn good scouting skills, yes it does. The CC should be proxied, meaning you usually won't see it being built. Either that or it's built as if it were an expansion CC. If you just put a probe on his scouting SCV and park your scout probe outside his ramp, he has to fight off your scout probe and then pull a second SCV from his base to build a proxy cc, or force your probe off of his scout. There's no rule that says you cant follow their SCV forever.
Or he can just kill your scouting probe with his first marine and proceed to proxy the CC. Geez
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First of, thanks for the shoutout. As for the build TheStC uses. I can't really say much about it, but it shouldw ork similar to the 3 Rax Dropship play build DemusliM and most other Terrans used a while ago.
You can put immense pressure from the front and harass in the back - with the different that a command center certainly is not a medivac - so I think it could work out pretty okay. I really need to try it against a good protoss. If you want we can try it out.
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EPT![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Is_It_Viable/pf1.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Is_It_Viable/pf2.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Is_It_Viable/pf3.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Is_It_Viable/PF4.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Is_It_Viable/pf5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157793.jpg)
