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So I was watching iNcontrol's stream and he was says a lot of pro's are doing a 2 base 6 gate vs Terran and crushing them. So I thought what the heck let me try and wow i am now winning most of my games against terran. So here is the basic idea and i would life some feed back on the off chance it doesnt work what transitions to do.
open 3 gate expo, with a gas steal:
the gas steal is important because it keeps them from doing fast thors, banshees and such which would just kill you.
make mostly sentrys till you expo
when expo is 75% start 3 more gates
once expo is up and running and gates finish do 2 cycles and attack while making a robo back home if he is still on one base sit out side his base and take a third.
if he has expanded i have pretty much been just walking over them.
so here are 3 replays 2 i won the 3rd i got over zealous and should have pulled back and macroed up. but let me know what you guys think.
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this is the one i lost
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btw i am rank 20-30 diamond
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Even with the gas steal, couldn't cloaked banshees hit before your push?
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Just to be that guy, white ra was doing this a while back, and i watched him on his stream, and the guy said something along the lines of "Oh no. 6 gate again? How do you stop that?"
And white ra said "tanks"
So, ofc the guy went tanks and...
WhiteRa opened stargate. I lol'd :D
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Yea this is definitely a viable build. Here are a few of my thoughts about gateway heavy style PvT (as opposed to colossus based):
1. Extremely strong against aggressive terrans. There are essentially no timings where you are weak (which normally is the case if you do some sort of tech), so if the terran attacks you at any point you just destroy their army and take a commanding lead.
However, the problem is if the terran plays defensively, and makes a lot of bunkers. It's difficult attacking into a mass of bunkers, and then you'll end up in a mid-late game scenario where you're behind on tech and all you have are gateway units, and then the terran comes in with a huge medivac bioball and you're in trouble.
So a solution to this is to tech faster - make your goal not to win with a 2 base all-in, but prepare for a late game scenario by getting your twilight earlier (i.e. with robo or even before), and start getting twilight upgrades. If you see the terran playing defensively then you can quickly transition into templar tech + 3rd base to prepare for the late game.
I highly recommend watching MC's games from MLG. He's been doing this 6 gate PvT no colossus style very well, except he goes 3 gates then twilight then 3 more gates.
2. This is just a personal preference, but I still like opening 1 gate FE. If you don't gas steal, getting a robo just for obs doesn't really hurt you either. Plus I'm starting to see tanks a lot more now, and immortals complement the gateway army pretty well.
3. I actually prefer mass gateway/HT late game over colossus armies on big open maps like tal darim. I find that on such a big map, even if I have air dominance with phoenix and 6+ colossus, I still lose to marauders in a 200/200 battle because they can get a really nice spread anywhere. However for smaller or maps with more chokes like xel naga, I'd still prefer colossus over gateway.
4. Forge upgrades are really important for this!
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I'm doing that build really often on high master (but with 1 gate expo) if i see 1 rax marine expo (sometimes bit later with 1/1). That is kind of a direct counter because T has no medivacs and probably stim isn't finished. He also has many marines which are really weak against gateway with shield. It also hits a really good timing for P (it's like the same thing if P goes for colossus and T attacks with stim and first medivacs).
In the first replay I had the feeling the T didn't know how to handle this gas steal and was lost. So it was kind of a "doesn't matter which strat P is using he will win".
The last replay shows what i'm talking about. T plays 1 base with 3 rax then you should not 5 or 6 gating.
I think it's really weak against a T who is teching to stim and medivacs and doesn't expand really early.
@ Alzadar yes the banshee timing is about minute 8-9 if i remember correctly.
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Thanks Anihc yeah i havent refined this quite yet and will start putting in the twilight council and getting upgrades faster and such. Have you used this much? I like that for the most part it gives you map control
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i wouldnt recommen that play if you want to actually get better. its just the 2base variation of the 4gate. if terran scouts it and respondes correctly you will probably lose. if he doesnt and techs fast to medivacs (2rax to medivacs, 3rax to medivacs) you will win pretty easily in most cases.
anihc's variation with twilight council is the way to go if you wanna heavy gateway focused.
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@loklok so you do this mostly as a way to put aggression on a 1 rax FE'ing terran? I like that i was trying to figure out where to kind of put this in my builds vs T
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On June 10 2011 03:26 YourGoodFriend wrote:
@loklok so you do this mostly as a way to put aggression on a 1 rax FE'ing terran? I like that i was trying to figure out where to kind of put this in my builds vs T
Yes. I can't remember when i lost the last time to 1 rax marine expand with that build... .
But i'm doing the typical double forge style out of 1 gate expo. Like: 30 Nexus, adding 2 gates 2 forge and then more gates (3 or 4). Then i try to figure out what T is out to. If he is agressive I wait until 2/2 upgrades. If not then i attack straight after 1/1 upgrades with about 10 Sentries, some stalker and zealots.
The reason for that is a) he has many marines which do less dmg against sentry supportet zeals and stalker b) his stim timing is a bit off and since the last patch way later.
Forcefields behind his 3 bunkers and just kill him (don't forget to reenforce !). The unit wave which crushes him is mostly the second or third.
For everything else i don't use only gateway. If you want to play heavy gateway style then you should remember these things:
- You have to have ALWAYS better upgrades
- You have to have ALWAYS same or better ecomony
- You have to have ALWAYS same or better positioning in fights
-> agressiv expo play, many gateways, double forge upgrading like hell.
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If you really want to see the strength of this build then watch MC from a while back. He popularized it back in Season 3 of the GSL.
But yeah, like someone already mentioned, don't just do this build if you want to improve. It's a great build to have in your toolkit, but your skillset won't improve as it's just a 2-base timing attack.
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This build loses pretty much as soon as they get stim and 2 bunkers, it is really amazing though if they don't see it coming, or play greedily. The latter of the two is why incontrol was talking about it because he said at mlg many of the terrans were playing greedily on Tal derime. Like in his game vs major when major proxied the expo, if incontrol would have 6 gated it would have been GG. Btw MC is the grand father of this build because he used it to great success in GSL 3 and 4.
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On June 10 2011 04:16 gdalam wrote:
If you really want to see the strength of this build then watch MC from a while back. He popularized it back in Season 3 of the GSL.
But yeah, like someone already mentioned, don't just do this build if you want to improve. It's a great build to have in your toolkit, but your skillset won't improve as it's just a 2-base timing attack.
2base timing attacks require more micro and macro to work so it actually will increase your skill, especially for those players who are single basers. In fact, a two base timing attack is what you're logically supposed to do if you are up 2bases to 1 for so long and want to end the game and play another one that might be more challenging.
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can someone point me to the 1 gate fast expand build i've seen some in team liquid but i don't know if it has changed since the warp gate nerf
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On June 10 2011 04:35 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:16 gdalam wrote:
If you really want to see the strength of this build then watch MC from a while back. He popularized it back in Season 3 of the GSL.
But yeah, like someone already mentioned, don't just do this build if you want to improve. It's a great build to have in your toolkit, but your skillset won't improve as it's just a 2-base timing attack. 2base timing attacks require more micro and macro to work so it actually will increase your skill, especially for those players who are single basers. In fact, a two base timing attack is what you're logically supposed to do if you are up 2bases to 1 for so long and want to end the game and play another one that might be more challenging.
I would tend to disagree with this 100%.
If you are up 2 bases to 1, you basically never want to attack into them until they try to expand.
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On June 10 2011 04:35 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:16 gdalam wrote:
If you really want to see the strength of this build then watch MC from a while back. He popularized it back in Season 3 of the GSL.
But yeah, like someone already mentioned, don't just do this build if you want to improve. It's a great build to have in your toolkit, but your skillset won't improve as it's just a 2-base timing attack. 2base timing attacks require more micro and macro to work so it actually will increase your skill, especially for those players who are single basers. In fact, a two base timing attack is what you're logically supposed to do if you are up 2bases to 1 for so long and want to end the game and play another one that might be more challenging.
A 2-base timing attack requires more skill than a 1-base all in, sure. But it requires much less than a good solid macro game in the long run. The longer a game goes, the higher the odds are that the better player will win. If you want to work on improving at the game you don't want to simply do a 6-Gate timing because you're merely following a build order instead of reacting and adjusting to your opponent.
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On June 10 2011 04:38 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:35 tehemperorer wrote:On June 10 2011 04:16 gdalam wrote:
If you really want to see the strength of this build then watch MC from a while back. He popularized it back in Season 3 of the GSL.
But yeah, like someone already mentioned, don't just do this build if you want to improve. It's a great build to have in your toolkit, but your skillset won't improve as it's just a 2-base timing attack. 2base timing attacks require more micro and macro to work so it actually will increase your skill, especially for those players who are single basers. In fact, a two base timing attack is what you're logically supposed to do if you are up 2bases to 1 for so long and want to end the game and play another one that might be more challenging. I would tend to disagree with this 100%. If you are up 2 bases to 1, you basically never want to attack into them until they try to expand.
Yeah and that is really rare when you can do 2 base timing because 1 base timing are way earlier...
@nichan: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Gate_FE_(vs._Terran)
pretty much the same as pre patch
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On June 10 2011 02:26 Alzadar wrote:
Even with the gas steal, couldn't cloaked banshees hit before your push?
If you do the build perfectly with a gas steal, the cloaked banshees won't hit your base until your robo is producing an observer and it's pretty manageable.
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Also: could someone post a concrete build order for this? I've been kinda "throwing down gates when it feels right" when I've done this recently and I feel like my build isn't as tight as it should be. A build order would be greatly appreciated, thanks.
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Yeah I have basically been trying this out to add to my group of builds and wanted input. I prefer to do it not as a all in but as a way to punish fast expanding terran and I am taking the advice and throwing in a twilight council and and robo (robo as needed) grabbing a fast third while pressuring/killing them then going heavy ht's into mass expo and from there robo coli since i can support multiple robo's and they wont have time to get high viking counts. But so far it tends to just kill them, granted i am only in diamond.
@loklok is that 1 gate FE build on TL somewhere? is it similar to what huk does? thanks for the help and ideas guys
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Out of curiosity, do you take your 3rd and 4th gasses with this build? One thing I've noticed with this sort of gateway all in, particularly the strong zealot/sentry one, is that they only require 2 gas so you can detect it by using a reaper or a scan to check their extra gas timings or lack thereof, and just spam the shit out of bunkers.
In general against certain terran styles I'd almost call this extremely coinflippy. If the terran is going for a rax heavy midgame, perhaps incorporating ghosts then the chance of this working is far less then if the terran is going for medivacs off of like 3 rax (what I usually do and why I usually lose to this sort of shit because that's what 6gate is supposed to do, punish a teching terran almost blindly). But because most terrans get a starport out because there's only one tech path that counters colossus, I'd say in general this style will work extremely well against the majority of terrans you'll meet on bnet. Especially bad ones that don't check gas properly.
But yeah, shit like this is why I stay home as terran now ><. The outside world is scary.
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EPT
