|
So I was watching iNcontrol's stream and he was says a lot of pro's are doing a 2 base 6 gate vs Terran and crushing them. So I thought what the heck let me try and wow i am now winning most of my games against terran. So here is the basic idea and i would life some feed back on the off chance it doesnt work what transitions to do.
open 3 gate expo, with a gas steal:
the gas steal is important because it keeps them from doing fast thors, banshees and such which would just kill you.
make mostly sentrys till you expo
when expo is 75% start 3 more gates
once expo is up and running and gates finish do 2 cycles and attack while making a robo back home if he is still on one base sit out side his base and take a third.
if he has expanded i have pretty much been just walking over them.
so here are 3 replays 2 i won the 3rd i got over zealous and should have pulled back and macroed up. but let me know what you guys think.
[url blocked]
[url blocked]
this is the one i lost
[url blocked]
btw i am rank 20-30 diamond
|
Even with the gas steal, couldn't cloaked banshees hit before your push?
|
Just to be that guy, white ra was doing this a while back, and i watched him on his stream, and the guy said something along the lines of "Oh no. 6 gate again? How do you stop that?"
And white ra said "tanks"
So, ofc the guy went tanks and...
WhiteRa opened stargate. I lol'd :D
|
Yea this is definitely a viable build. Here are a few of my thoughts about gateway heavy style PvT (as opposed to colossus based):
1. Extremely strong against aggressive terrans. There are essentially no timings where you are weak (which normally is the case if you do some sort of tech), so if the terran attacks you at any point you just destroy their army and take a commanding lead.
However, the problem is if the terran plays defensively, and makes a lot of bunkers. It's difficult attacking into a mass of bunkers, and then you'll end up in a mid-late game scenario where you're behind on tech and all you have are gateway units, and then the terran comes in with a huge medivac bioball and you're in trouble.
So a solution to this is to tech faster - make your goal not to win with a 2 base all-in, but prepare for a late game scenario by getting your twilight earlier (i.e. with robo or even before), and start getting twilight upgrades. If you see the terran playing defensively then you can quickly transition into templar tech + 3rd base to prepare for the late game.
I highly recommend watching MC's games from MLG. He's been doing this 6 gate PvT no colossus style very well, except he goes 3 gates then twilight then 3 more gates.
2. This is just a personal preference, but I still like opening 1 gate FE. If you don't gas steal, getting a robo just for obs doesn't really hurt you either. Plus I'm starting to see tanks a lot more now, and immortals complement the gateway army pretty well.
3. I actually prefer mass gateway/HT late game over colossus armies on big open maps like tal darim. I find that on such a big map, even if I have air dominance with phoenix and 6+ colossus, I still lose to marauders in a 200/200 battle because they can get a really nice spread anywhere. However for smaller or maps with more chokes like xel naga, I'd still prefer colossus over gateway.
4. Forge upgrades are really important for this!
|
I'm doing that build really often on high master (but with 1 gate expo) if i see 1 rax marine expo (sometimes bit later with 1/1). That is kind of a direct counter because T has no medivacs and probably stim isn't finished. He also has many marines which are really weak against gateway with shield. It also hits a really good timing for P (it's like the same thing if P goes for colossus and T attacks with stim and first medivacs).
In the first replay I had the feeling the T didn't know how to handle this gas steal and was lost. So it was kind of a "doesn't matter which strat P is using he will win".
The last replay shows what i'm talking about. T plays 1 base with 3 rax then you should not 5 or 6 gating.
I think it's really weak against a T who is teching to stim and medivacs and doesn't expand really early.
@ Alzadar yes the banshee timing is about minute 8-9 if i remember correctly.
|
Thanks Anihc yeah i havent refined this quite yet and will start putting in the twilight council and getting upgrades faster and such. Have you used this much? I like that for the most part it gives you map control
|
i wouldnt recommen that play if you want to actually get better. its just the 2base variation of the 4gate. if terran scouts it and respondes correctly you will probably lose. if he doesnt and techs fast to medivacs (2rax to medivacs, 3rax to medivacs) you will win pretty easily in most cases.
anihc's variation with twilight council is the way to go if you wanna heavy gateway focused.
|
@loklok so you do this mostly as a way to put aggression on a 1 rax FE'ing terran? I like that i was trying to figure out where to kind of put this in my builds vs T
|
On June 10 2011 03:26 YourGoodFriend wrote:
@loklok so you do this mostly as a way to put aggression on a 1 rax FE'ing terran? I like that i was trying to figure out where to kind of put this in my builds vs T
Yes. I can't remember when i lost the last time to 1 rax marine expand with that build... .
But i'm doing the typical double forge style out of 1 gate expo. Like: 30 Nexus, adding 2 gates 2 forge and then more gates (3 or 4). Then i try to figure out what T is out to. If he is agressive I wait until 2/2 upgrades. If not then i attack straight after 1/1 upgrades with about 10 Sentries, some stalker and zealots.
The reason for that is a) he has many marines which do less dmg against sentry supportet zeals and stalker b) his stim timing is a bit off and since the last patch way later.
Forcefields behind his 3 bunkers and just kill him (don't forget to reenforce !). The unit wave which crushes him is mostly the second or third.
For everything else i don't use only gateway. If you want to play heavy gateway style then you should remember these things:
- You have to have ALWAYS better upgrades
- You have to have ALWAYS same or better ecomony
- You have to have ALWAYS same or better positioning in fights
-> agressiv expo play, many gateways, double forge upgrading like hell.
|
If you really want to see the strength of this build then watch MC from a while back. He popularized it back in Season 3 of the GSL.
But yeah, like someone already mentioned, don't just do this build if you want to improve. It's a great build to have in your toolkit, but your skillset won't improve as it's just a 2-base timing attack.
|
This build loses pretty much as soon as they get stim and 2 bunkers, it is really amazing though if they don't see it coming, or play greedily. The latter of the two is why incontrol was talking about it because he said at mlg many of the terrans were playing greedily on Tal derime. Like in his game vs major when major proxied the expo, if incontrol would have 6 gated it would have been GG. Btw MC is the grand father of this build because he used it to great success in GSL 3 and 4.
|
On June 10 2011 04:16 gdalam wrote:
If you really want to see the strength of this build then watch MC from a while back. He popularized it back in Season 3 of the GSL.
But yeah, like someone already mentioned, don't just do this build if you want to improve. It's a great build to have in your toolkit, but your skillset won't improve as it's just a 2-base timing attack.
2base timing attacks require more micro and macro to work so it actually will increase your skill, especially for those players who are single basers. In fact, a two base timing attack is what you're logically supposed to do if you are up 2bases to 1 for so long and want to end the game and play another one that might be more challenging.
|
can someone point me to the 1 gate fast expand build i've seen some in team liquid but i don't know if it has changed since the warp gate nerf
|
On June 10 2011 04:35 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:16 gdalam wrote:
If you really want to see the strength of this build then watch MC from a while back. He popularized it back in Season 3 of the GSL.
But yeah, like someone already mentioned, don't just do this build if you want to improve. It's a great build to have in your toolkit, but your skillset won't improve as it's just a 2-base timing attack. 2base timing attacks require more micro and macro to work so it actually will increase your skill, especially for those players who are single basers. In fact, a two base timing attack is what you're logically supposed to do if you are up 2bases to 1 for so long and want to end the game and play another one that might be more challenging.
I would tend to disagree with this 100%.
If you are up 2 bases to 1, you basically never want to attack into them until they try to expand.
|
On June 10 2011 04:35 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:16 gdalam wrote:
If you really want to see the strength of this build then watch MC from a while back. He popularized it back in Season 3 of the GSL.
But yeah, like someone already mentioned, don't just do this build if you want to improve. It's a great build to have in your toolkit, but your skillset won't improve as it's just a 2-base timing attack. 2base timing attacks require more micro and macro to work so it actually will increase your skill, especially for those players who are single basers. In fact, a two base timing attack is what you're logically supposed to do if you are up 2bases to 1 for so long and want to end the game and play another one that might be more challenging.
A 2-base timing attack requires more skill than a 1-base all in, sure. But it requires much less than a good solid macro game in the long run. The longer a game goes, the higher the odds are that the better player will win. If you want to work on improving at the game you don't want to simply do a 6-Gate timing because you're merely following a build order instead of reacting and adjusting to your opponent.
|
On June 10 2011 04:38 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:35 tehemperorer wrote:On June 10 2011 04:16 gdalam wrote:
If you really want to see the strength of this build then watch MC from a while back. He popularized it back in Season 3 of the GSL.
But yeah, like someone already mentioned, don't just do this build if you want to improve. It's a great build to have in your toolkit, but your skillset won't improve as it's just a 2-base timing attack. 2base timing attacks require more micro and macro to work so it actually will increase your skill, especially for those players who are single basers. In fact, a two base timing attack is what you're logically supposed to do if you are up 2bases to 1 for so long and want to end the game and play another one that might be more challenging. I would tend to disagree with this 100%. If you are up 2 bases to 1, you basically never want to attack into them until they try to expand.
Yeah and that is really rare when you can do 2 base timing because 1 base timing are way earlier...
@nichan: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Gate_FE_(vs._Terran)
pretty much the same as pre patch
|
On June 10 2011 02:26 Alzadar wrote:
Even with the gas steal, couldn't cloaked banshees hit before your push?
If you do the build perfectly with a gas steal, the cloaked banshees won't hit your base until your robo is producing an observer and it's pretty manageable.
|
Also: could someone post a concrete build order for this? I've been kinda "throwing down gates when it feels right" when I've done this recently and I feel like my build isn't as tight as it should be. A build order would be greatly appreciated, thanks.
|
Yeah I have basically been trying this out to add to my group of builds and wanted input. I prefer to do it not as a all in but as a way to punish fast expanding terran and I am taking the advice and throwing in a twilight council and and robo (robo as needed) grabbing a fast third while pressuring/killing them then going heavy ht's into mass expo and from there robo coli since i can support multiple robo's and they wont have time to get high viking counts. But so far it tends to just kill them, granted i am only in diamond.
@loklok is that 1 gate FE build on TL somewhere? is it similar to what huk does? thanks for the help and ideas guys
|
Out of curiosity, do you take your 3rd and 4th gasses with this build? One thing I've noticed with this sort of gateway all in, particularly the strong zealot/sentry one, is that they only require 2 gas so you can detect it by using a reaper or a scan to check their extra gas timings or lack thereof, and just spam the shit out of bunkers.
In general against certain terran styles I'd almost call this extremely coinflippy. If the terran is going for a rax heavy midgame, perhaps incorporating ghosts then the chance of this working is far less then if the terran is going for medivacs off of like 3 rax (what I usually do and why I usually lose to this sort of shit because that's what 6gate is supposed to do, punish a teching terran almost blindly). But because most terrans get a starport out because there's only one tech path that counters colossus, I'd say in general this style will work extremely well against the majority of terrans you'll meet on bnet. Especially bad ones that don't check gas properly.
But yeah, shit like this is why I stay home as terran now ><. The outside world is scary.
|
Looks good. Another opening I've been playing around with is DTs. Seems to work very well if they're well split up as it either forces THREE scans out of terran, or a raven which will pretty much put you at an even investment, and the raven will generally not get out in time anyways. If turrets go up instead, an expo is easy as terran can't push out. Thoughts?
|
dt's opening is nice for containing but it is also weak against really early pressure so you have to be careful. its also not so good against 1 rax fe'ing terrans as they will have 2 oribital and dts take a while to get to. that being said doing it as a way to secure a 3rd or take map control is pretty good or just harass mid game with warp prism dts.
|
TvP is already turning into a more defensive Siege Tank based play. This will likely just speed up the process of that, soon everyone will be doing a more mech style based play.
|
On June 11 2011 01:53 grudgeStar wrote:
TvP is already turning into a more defensive Siege Tank based play. This will likely just speed up the process of that, soon everyone will be doing a more mech style based play.
EDIT: A bit off topic
Its nice to see toss expanding outside the Collosi as they discover the power of Gateways. Personally i feel this and Plexas shock and Awe tactics would be a benefit for all toss to look through.
|
I prefer going for a +1 armor w/ charge when i 6 gate and i make almost nothing but zealots and sentries.... I add the stalkers right when im ready to attack
|
On June 11 2011 02:23 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
I prefer going for a +1 armor w/ charge when i 6 gate and i make almost nothing but zealots and sentries.... I add the stalkers right when im ready to attack
Could you share your build order?
Or anyone else? I've yet to find a concrete build order for a 6 gate
|
If you want to be cute you can research Hallucination and use it to do warpin 2-3 Zealots on the highground. Terran usually has to pull back at least a small chunk of his army to deal with them, and you can FF the ramp when attacking, giving you additional army advantage (as long as no Medivacs are out). Alternatively you can just warpin while you bus the front for a nice 2-pronged attack. If you already got a Robo though, just using a warpprism or Observer + Pylon works as well.
|
Whats the plan against an early pressure Terran with 3rax +ghosts?
I've been losing my expo against this push (comes right before its really up and running but has finished warping in), both armies get traded so that pretty much kills the plan of hitting with a strong 6 gate off 2 bases.
It would seem like you need to check if he expo'd or not, but either way your reacting after his choice and will probably be behind. If you re-expo you lose it to his follow up push if he doesn't expo...just wondering what the best plan is after your intial trade if the natural falls.
|
thats why the gas steal is important plus pressure delays ghosts and allows you more time to get units out and hold the ghost push better. But yeah that push is strong i have lost to it a couple of times and you just have to engage him early also and split army
|
On June 10 2011 12:18 YourGoodFriend wrote:
Yeah I have basically been trying this out to add to my group of builds and wanted input. I prefer to do it not as a all in but as a way to punish fast expanding terran and I am taking the advice and throwing in a twilight council and and robo (robo as needed) grabbing a fast third while pressuring/killing them then going heavy ht's into mass expo and from there robo coli since i can support multiple robo's and they wont have time to get high viking counts. But so far it tends to just kill them, granted i am only in diamond.
@loklok is that 1 gate FE build on TL somewhere? is it similar to what huk does? thanks for the help and ideas guys
No huk is doing this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223726
|
On June 11 2011 06:15 SethDrone wrote:
Whats the plan against an early pressure Terran with 3rax +ghosts?
I've been losing my expo against this push (comes right before its really up and running but has finished warping in), both armies get traded so that pretty much kills the plan of hitting with a strong 6 gate off 2 bases.
It would seem like you need to check if he expo'd or not, but either way your reacting after his choice and will probably be behind. If you re-expo you lose it to his follow up push if he doesn't expo...just wondering what the best plan is after your intial trade if the natural falls.
If you scout him not expanding and going MM then you can be aggressive with your first units and engage him at his ramp. His army > yours and he may get some emp's off but all you need is 1 FF to give him a good fucking. Split your sentries!
|
Something to add:
@ the 5.30 mark, poke a probe in the front of their base to gage unit composition. If only marines, build a robo before building the nexus. If you see a marauder sprinkled in, then you can do the sentries thing.
|
Anybody know how to BEAT this build as Terran? I just watched sixjaxmajor lose to it REALLY BADLY with 3 bunkers, stim, and medivacs. It just seems like the number of units is absurd. I've been completely destroyed by this build on ladder as well. I had both stim and medivacs by the time it happened.
Are you supposed to scan to know its coming or what? and then make 4 bunkers?
|
Good, well staggered bunkers with 3 or more barracks (as is standard) will beat basically any protoss gateway push. Staggering your bunkers is the key, so he can't just forcefield off a row and then win. Terrans are just getting greedy with not building enough bunkers, and protoss is getting more aggressive in the midgame.
As with anything else, scouting is key. 3 bunkers won't do it. You need a BUNCH of bunkers. They cost a whopping net 25 minerals. Scout aggressively and don't be afraid to pull all your natural's SCV's to hold on. Defending a seriously massive attack and being down 15 scv's is better than losing.
Also, cloak banshees. He won't have an observer. And if he does, your regular old bio ball in a few bunkers will crush him for teching and attacking.
I've also been building tanks and hellions to combat the chargelots. Nothing dissuades a gateway army quite like two seige tanks, and four or so blueflame hellions beats infinity zealots.
|
On July 27 2011 14:27 Scila wrote:
Anybody know how to BEAT this build as Terran? I just watched sixjaxmajor lose to it REALLY BADLY with 3 bunkers, stim, and medivacs. It just seems like the number of units is absurd. I've been completely destroyed by this build on ladder as well. I had both stim and medivacs by the time it happened.
Are you supposed to scan to know its coming or what? and then make 4 bunkers?
Put more bunkers down. I've found anywhere up to 5 is necessary.
This build dies to tanks, of course depends on the map. With a wide open natural, tanks cant cover everywhere compared to say sharkuras but in general tanks will hold this sort of build.
Also dont lose ur initial bio ball. Far too often as toss, i will go 1 gate expo vs a 1/2 rax expo or something along those lines. The terran scouts the nexus and tries to "punish" it. Every time as toss u destroy the army, get 6 gateways immediately and "a" move. With correct use of FF you cannot "punish" a 1 gate expo with a 1/2 rax opening. Just macro there's no need to try to win. Any slight advantage u had in army size because u have 2 rax vs 1 rax is negated by the time you walk to their base.
|
I remember MC doing this back in GSL season three, and just crushing terrans (with this build and others). "Other Protoss players don't know how to play PvT" he said in explanation. The ability to FF bunkers to keep scvs from repairing them seems very strong, especially on maps with open naturals like Xel'naga caverns, where you can engage one or two bunkers at a time.
|
As a Terran how do I beat this? One said there are no weak points in the build so how do I beat it as T?
|
On July 27 2011 14:27 Scila wrote:
Anybody know how to BEAT this build as Terran? I just watched sixjaxmajor lose to it REALLY BADLY with 3 bunkers, stim, and medivacs. It just seems like the number of units is absurd. I've been completely destroyed by this build on ladder as well. I had both stim and medivacs by the time it happened.
Are you supposed to scan to know its coming or what? and then make 4 bunkers?
It's a pretty well understood concept in Starcraft that teching will leave you with less units if your opponent just builds unit producing structures, your tech has to have time to pay off, and safety during the teching has to be bought through information or efficiency. Why head for the starport if you havent' seen a robotics? You might be over-estimating how important medivacs are vs just more unit producing structures.
|
6gate/7gate is very very strong vs a MMM terran. They need at minimum 3 well placed bunkers, and sometimes up to 4 or 5. Bunkers can be salvageable so it is necessary the terran gets this many to hold this sort of all in type build. Its not a full all in, it requires some damage to be done, but it doesn't need to out right kill the opponent as in a full all in. The gas steal is good, it doesn't fully rule out a delayed cloak banshee, but significantly reduces the probability of it.
The reason its so strong is because of all the resources the terran spends on teching towards medivacs. If the terran went 4 or 5 rax mass marine marauder with stim, then it would be a pretty even fight.
Very viable timing attack, just try not to let it get scouted, and spread out your gateways. Don't let 1 scan catch all your gateways.
|
In the GSL Team League game Slayers vs Prime, the third game Hung Un does a 6 gate rush against an expanding Terran
|
The thing with this build that may make it challenging is that its uncommon to see Terrans on lower levels expand early against Protoss. Their aim is ALWAYS to stim push their opponents.
|
If I see Terran going bio, wouldn't it be better if I tech up to +2 armor and mass chargelots with sentries?
|
On June 10 2011 02:36 Anihc wrote:
However, the problem is if the terran plays defensively, and makes a lot of bunkers. It's difficult attacking into a mass of bunkers, and then you'll end up in a mid-late game scenario where you're behind on tech and all you have are gateway units, and then the terran comes in with a huge medivac bioball and you're in trouble.
You can actually get Hallu, and then hallu a warp prism into the other end of the Terran base. If they're a good player, they'll see it and pull a bunch of stuff towards it, making your bust easier.
Also, I actually am going to make a youtube video of a replay analysis of a 6 Gate PvT that absolutely crushed the opponent. So if anyone is interested in getting another perspective on how to pull it off, check it out. I'll post it in here (if I remember) when I finish it too.
|
I'm looking forward to your video Cecil!!! Love your stuff so far!
|
On August 05 2011 07:59 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 02:36 Anihc wrote:
However, the problem is if the terran plays defensively, and makes a lot of bunkers. It's difficult attacking into a mass of bunkers, and then you'll end up in a mid-late game scenario where you're behind on tech and all you have are gateway units, and then the terran comes in with a huge medivac bioball and you're in trouble. You can actually get Hallu, and then hallu a warp prism into the other end of the Terran base. If they're a good player, they'll see it and pull a bunch of stuff towards it, making your bust easier. Also, I actually am going to make a youtube video of a replay analysis of a 6 Gate PvT that absolutely crushed the opponent. So if anyone is interested in getting another perspective on how to pull it off, check it out. I'll post it in here (if I remember) when I finish it too.
Sounds awesome, would love to check that out. I guess I always play really standard, opening up 2gate Robo expand 100% of my PvT's, so checking out a really aggressive build would be awesome.
|
6 gate is amazing against anyone doing rax play, espcially a fe. they have to make a lot of bunkers to stop it, and it's a fine line to scout it coming. there are a lot of games where my opponent does 1 or 2 rax fe, and they get too greedy not making enough bunkers, or they feel safe at just the wrong time and salvage them. i just lol and pretty much 1a with some slow, easy, but well placed force fields
just make sure they aren't going banshees, or do something to stop it in case they go banshees.
if they go tanks, then just remacro up, get chargelots and own.
|
i find this build incredibly risky if he can expo / get his starport up successfully in time
|
4kWardens 1-1-1 build gets you enough tanks out to stop it.
|
On August 05 2011 07:59 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 02:36 Anihc wrote:
However, the problem is if the terran plays defensively, and makes a lot of bunkers. It's difficult attacking into a mass of bunkers, and then you'll end up in a mid-late game scenario where you're behind on tech and all you have are gateway units, and then the terran comes in with a huge medivac bioball and you're in trouble. You can actually get Hallu, and then hallu a warp prism into the other end of the Terran base. If they're a good player, they'll see it and pull a bunch of stuff towards it, making your bust easier. Also, I actually am going to make a youtube video of a replay analysis of a 6 Gate PvT that absolutely crushed the opponent. So if anyone is interested in getting another perspective on how to pull it off, check it out. I'll post it in here (if I remember) when I finish it too.
I made that video!
Here!
It's a very cool game with Squirtle vs PuMa, a 7 Gate + Hallu allin.
|
Even with a gas steal aren't you going to be vulnerable to banshees still? I know they will come later but if you're going six gateways before robo he could still catch you before you attack, no?
|
On August 05 2011 14:43 tomatriedes wrote:
Even with a gas steal aren't you going to be vulnerable to banshees still? I know they will come later but if you're going six gateways before robo he could still catch you before you attack, no?
While you are correct that you are vulnerable to banshee's as the toss with this build, I think the gas steal will deter the terran from getting banshees to begin with. Knowing how delayed they'll be and the likelihood of toss getting a robo, they will be more likely to simply go for a barracks heavy play. Also consider that if you get hallucination early enough and scout a starport with a tech lab with a phoenix, you will have a chance to throw down the robo and get an obs.
|
|
|
United Kingdom36161 Posts
I tend to feel that a Terran will show his marauders before you have to commit to the 6gate, or at least you can find out.
Like someone posted on page 2, I like a charge+armour 6/7 gate with primarily zealots and some sentries. When doing it, I've always known one way or another that the Terran was committing to bio before I had to set up the infrastructure for it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
