• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:24
CEST 23:24
KST 06:24
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting10[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4)5
Community News
BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET6Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO85.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8)80Weekly Cups (Sept 29-Oct 5): MaxPax triples up3PartinG joins SteamerZone, returns to SC2 competition32
StarCraft 2
General
Revisiting the game after10 years and wow it's bad The New Patch Killed Mech! TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting Stellar Fest: StarCraft II returns to Canada herO Talks: Poor Performance at EWC and more...
Tourneys
SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $1,200 WardiTV October (Oct 21st-31st) WardiTV Mondays RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 496 Endless Infection Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment Mutation # 493 Quick Killers
Brood War
General
BSL Season 21 BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW caster Sayle BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET
Tourneys
[ASL20] Semifinal B [Megathread] Daily Proleagues SC4ALL $1,500 Open Bracket LAN [ASL20] Semifinal A
Strategy
Current Meta BW - ajfirecracker Strategy & Training Relatively freeroll strategies Siegecraft - a new perspective
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Dawn of War IV Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Men's Fashion Thread Sex and weight loss
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Series you have seen recently... Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The Heroism of Pepe the Fro…
Peanutsc
Rocket League: Traits, Abili…
TrAiDoS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1306 users

[D] PvZ oGsMC's FFE into Void Rays

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 Next All
Geiko
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
France1939 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-07 19:00:47
June 07 2011 01:52 GMT
#1
Good evening TL,

As many of you I've been watching MLG this weekend and I've fallen in love with oGsMC's Forge Fast Expand build that he has been using on Shakuras and Tal Darim against Zergs. If you don't want to be spoiled, don't read any further and go watch MC's games before.
I haven't got much experience playing with it so I won't make a guide out of this but I would like people to discuss about it, what it is weak against etc... I'll be trying to analyze it as best I can, I am 1200 EU master protoss so you can take my interpretation for what you think it is worth ^^

Build order :

9 Pylon -> scout (rally 8th worker to natural entrance)
CB Nexus
13 Forge (rally 12th worker to pylon) (if you haven't found the zerg then -> scout )
CB Nexus x 2
Probes up to 17 (or 18 if you sent 2 scouts) then stop probes
Nexus
Gateway
Cannon
Gas (3 probes asap)
Pylon
Probe (if you are at 17)
Gas (3 probes asap)
Resume probes (at both nexus)
1 or 2 CB on probes
Cybercore (wall off)
Stargate
{Warpgate research ; Pylon ; Sentry ; (extra cannon) }
3 x Void ray (chronoboosted) then phoenix + stuff you can afford out of your gateways

eventually you'll also want to add 3 or 4 additional gates and a robo bay before taking a third.

The build order is somewhat loose and depends on what you scout. oGsMC is comfortable with getting his forge at 16 if he scouts 14 gas 14 pool for example. He always gets it at 13 if he didn't scout his opponent with first probe. The order of the stuff in { } is dependent on the situation, whether you feel safe or not. MC has this kind of spider sense that allows him to know when he needs another cannon and when he can get away with only one. If you think you have a good read on your opponent and he is not roach/ling pushing you, you can skip the second cannon. Keeping your probe alive as long as possible is critical to get as much scouting information as you can.
You can hide your second scouting probe (if you sent it) in a corner somewhere for proxy pylons or just scouting third expansion timing.
Chronoboost must be spent exclusively on probes but have enough remaining to chrono out your three void rays and phoenix.
When you are ready to get out of your base, build an extra cybercore or an extra forge and break one of your structures down. If you used a pylon to wall off, break that instead.

Building placements :

[image loading]
On tal darim

[image loading]
On shakuras


Purpose of the build :

The aim the build is to allow you to fast expand while being safe against any all-in the zerg can throw at you (roach/ling all in with possible hatch cancel ). The Void Rays hard counter the roach ling push and come out at the right timing. The void rays also solve a problem with fast expand which is lack of map control and fast third from the zerg while mass droning. With your void rays you can pressure the third of your opponent which is not yet connected by creep and force a cancel at best, or at least a bunch of queens and spores or hydras. You need to be active with your void rays killing stray overlords etc... based on what you see with them you will transition into the mid game.

Transitions :

This part I would need the community’s help
In my opinion there are few things you can see with your void rays .

1) 3 base , queens spores and drones.
2) 3 base less queens, less spores and a couple of hydras
3) 2 base

1) Zerg is taking the economic lead, you need to make something happen. Either take a third of your own and set up a good defense or gear up for a 2 base timing attack.
MC went for a chargelot push vs Losira for example as he hadn't seen any roaches from Losira. I would probably try a 5 gate Stargate +1/+1 timing attack or something like that.

2)This is IMO the answer that you are expecting from zerg. When you see the hydras, I think you can back off a bit and just try to prevent zerg from spreading the creep, kill the overlords around your base etc ... Then tech up to colossi and take a third. (slow hydras aren't a real threat if you are controlling the creep spread). Stop air unit production when you spot hydras.

3) If you don't scout a third, you need to go into panic mode IMO. Scout for hidden expansions and if you don't find any, expect an all in. Be proactive about shutting down any nydus play inside your base. Add gateways and maybe a cannon. If you saw hydras, stop making void rays. If zerg doesn't have a third and isn't all-inning he is behind anyway so you can afford extra defensive stuff.

Cheesing :

If you scout a hatch first build from zerg, and no patrolling drone at the ramp or at the choke, instead of putting down a nexus at 17 you can do the 3 pylon wall in and place a cannon outside. (strategy detailed here : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226952 )

Replays :

Replays from MLG (not all of these are winning replays)

oGsMC VS IMLosirA on MLG Shakuras Plateau - #56894
IMLosirA VS oGsMC on MLG Tal'darim Altar - #56904
EGIdrA VS oGsMC on MLG Shakuras Plateau - #56790
Moon VS oGsMC on MLG Tal'darim Altar - #56765


Discussion :

So what do you guys think of this build ? I think it is a great build to set you up for a nice long macro game. I've played with it many times today and either I won in the first 10 minutes, or I was able to play some very interesting macro games.

I'd like to know what you guys think this build is week against, does it work only because people aren't used to it or does this have the potential to become the standard, safe way to play on shakuras and Tal d'arim altar ?

I hope you all give it a try, in any case it is a pretty fun way to play PvZ.
geiko.813 (EU)
TheResidentEvil
Profile Joined September 2010
United States991 Posts
June 07 2011 01:55 GMT
#2
thanks. i was going to go through the replays myself to grab this but now i dont have to.
confusedcrib
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1307 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-07 02:06:06
June 07 2011 02:02 GMT
#3
It was the kind of thing that seemed like MC made it up on the fly after being busted so much after expanding. My biggest fear for the build is the Idra style Hydra creep highway and/or nydus play. It seems that would rape pure gateway + air openings. Depends on how fast MC can get colossus up afterwards.

Oh, and in my opinion, the three void ray follow up is really bad. One void ray + phoenix follow up is much better for shutting down the third, and having that man void rays doesn't help too much, using that extra money for fast colossus seems like a better use.
I'm a writer for TeamLiquid, you've probably heard of me
Aquafresh
Profile Joined May 2007
United States824 Posts
June 07 2011 02:03 GMT
#4
It is interesting that he cuts probes for so long in order to get his infrastructure up and counts on Chronoboost to make up the difference. It has been awhile since I've actually played an SC2 game, is this something common among professional protoss builds? Chronoboost is such an unexplored mechanic. It seems like a godsend to the players who love to really tinker with optimal build orders.
Lemonayd
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States745 Posts
June 07 2011 02:09 GMT
#5
Saw this so much watching the stream on Saturday and Sunday. This gives me a reason to fimiliarize myself more with the Stargate and more chances to own zerg
EliteReplay
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Dominican Republic913 Posts
June 07 2011 02:13 GMT
#6
what i dont understand of this build is why 3Voids?? if u keep doing voids u are telling to zergs come with hydra and boost me.
can someone explain this to me?
if play random i can't call any race imba?
Vathus
Profile Joined October 2009
Canada404 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-07 02:23:16
June 07 2011 02:20 GMT
#7
You don't actually build 3 voids in every case. The reason MC did this is because zerg tried to bust him early. This means zerg has delayed his lair tech and voidrays can be more effective against the delayed lair. You want to cut voids at 3 though because you will need to get phoenix to deal with the queens eventually but up until that point the void rays are just better at dealing with spores and low numbers of queens.
EliteReplay
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Dominican Republic913 Posts
June 07 2011 02:23 GMT
#8
On June 07 2011 11:20 Vathus wrote:
You don't actually build 3 voids in every case. The reason MC did this is because zerg tried to bust him early. This means zerg has delayed his lair tech and voidrays can be more effective with the delayed lair. You want to cut voids at 3 though because you will need to get phoenix to deal with the queens eventually.


so u have to do 1void in case of early roach, and kill ovis arround your base, and scout with that
void.
if play random i can't call any race imba?
Vathus
Profile Joined October 2009
Canada404 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-07 02:26:40
June 07 2011 02:24 GMT
#9
On June 07 2011 11:23 2GRe-Play- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 07 2011 11:20 Vathus wrote:
You don't actually build 3 voids in every case. The reason MC did this is because zerg tried to bust him early. This means zerg has delayed his lair tech and voidrays can be more effective with the delayed lair. You want to cut voids at 3 though because you will need to get phoenix to deal with the queens eventually.


so u have to do 1void in case of early roach, and kill ovis arround your base, and scout with that
void.


You should always get 1 void ray for both defense and the ability to delay the zergs 3rd. After that you usually follow up with 4 phoenix or you can even throw down a 2nd stargate after starting the void and build up to around 12-13 phoenix but it's all preference.
TheSubtleArt
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada2527 Posts
June 07 2011 02:31 GMT
#10
Nice write up. The biggest strength of this build is definitely it's ability to hold off roach all ins with the void ray. Every time MC faced a roach / ling all in it seemed his void ray finished just in time to repell the attack. Also, it gives Protoss some map control and harass opportunity
Dodge arrows
lim1017
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1278 Posts
June 07 2011 02:34 GMT
#11
Biggest weakness with forge FE in general is that zerg can make nothing but drones for up to the 8-9 min mark.

Instant 3 base down, and if they are able to defend your void ray you end up pretty far behind

KimJongChill
Profile Joined January 2011
United States6429 Posts
June 07 2011 02:48 GMT
#12
It seemed like MC barely held the pushes though...maybe it looks a lot closer than it seems, I dunno...
MMA: U realise MMA: Most of my army EgIdra: fuck off MMA: Killed my orbital MMA: LOL MMA: just saying MMA: u werent loss
Lennon
Profile Joined February 2010
United Kingdom2275 Posts
June 07 2011 02:48 GMT
#13
You can hardly call it MC's strategy. People were doing this during the beta.
Trusty
Profile Joined July 2010
New Zealand520 Posts
June 07 2011 02:52 GMT
#14
I think 2VR's is a good number, because it promotes at least one of the queen to be pooling energy for Transfuse.

I think the 3rd unit should be a phoenix, unless you sense you're going to be under heavy pressure.
I tend to use the phoenix as my scout unit, since I'll have very very few sentries, and no hallucination (and probably wont end up getting it at all with FFE...)

I'm not sure rushing to collosus after VR openings is the correct choice, it feels very fragile, and when I've lost doing it, it's either to hydra drop or hydra creep highway.

I have been toying around with blink stalkers as a follow-up to VR's. If I see the potential for hydra drop. Your VR/Phoenix should be able to spot the ovie's coming, and blink lets you get your stalkers ASAP to the edge of your base to deal with the drop.

Collosus tend to rely on having things in front of them (FF's or gate units), both of which you'll probably be short on. Blink stalkers are the army comp that relies the least on FF's, so they're good probably the best thing for fighting inside your base, when you're already low on sentries.

Have not been able to test my blink stalker follow up enough, as I'm not quite adept enough at reading the hydra drop, but in the few cases I have done it, it's been really good - subject to player skill etc etc...
Dante08
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Singapore4132 Posts
June 07 2011 02:58 GMT
#15
On June 07 2011 11:48 Lennon wrote:
You can hardly call it MC's strategy. People were doing this during the beta.


So what, I doubt the "people" who did it during the beta can execute it as cleanly as MC can. And people will always follow the guy who can best execute it which in this case is MC. Nice writeup btw
Oreo7
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1647 Posts
June 07 2011 04:33 GMT
#16
I have no idea how MC pulls this off, everytime I open star and zerg isn't roach linging me I'm behind. I feel like it's better to play a ground protoss army, whether that means extra cannons or dts.
Stork HerO and Protoss everywhere - redfive on bnet
Aterons_toss
Profile Joined February 2011
Romania1275 Posts
June 07 2011 04:56 GMT
#17
Ehm... this tactic its been out there forever i think :o
Nice of you to put up a bo tho
A good strategy means leaving your opponent room to make mistakes
tsukiumi
Profile Joined May 2011
United States43 Posts
June 07 2011 04:57 GMT
#18
@Oreo7
i wanna say it was the metalopolis match against Idra (second series where he 4-0d him) or losira but im not 100%, that even though he did do a roach ling rush, the void rays still got defended against, and MC demonstrated a nice transition after about 3 voids and 4-5 phoenixs, he expanded to a 3rd and started making collosi and blink stalkers.

that Being said, losira Vs MC(when MC was eliminated) showed exactly how to counter and effectively win this particular wall off. *Spoiler-As soon as losira spotted the void rays he threw a few spore crawlers down and a hydra den. as soon as the den finished he threw down a nydus network. after he repelled the VR/Phoenix harass he used his zergling and overlords to spot 3 different nydus worms, brought in mass hydras and queens to drop creep tumors, and basically poked from all sides til he over ran MC. thats just my 2 cents on it, if any of you want i have the replays saved so i can link them for you to watch.
Halcyondaze
Profile Joined January 2011
United States509 Posts
June 07 2011 05:09 GMT
#19
I think this is the future of the FFE. Great build, and very safe
Deleted User 47542
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1484 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-07 05:42:36
June 07 2011 05:41 GMT
#20
Forge FE into air play is nothing new, future off PvZ my ass. You do it on maps you can wall off, otherwise you usually 3 gate expo or do 1 base play.

Strengths:
-Usually faster expo than zerg, if they hatch first you can cannon rush
-Map control, deny zerg's 3rd, kill ovies
-Safe vs roach/ling all-ins(zerg will still break you if you don't defend properly)
-Opens up every tech tree for protoss

Weaknesses:
-Requires a lot of APM to do effectively
-Low amount of gateway units
-Zerg can pump only drones and a few queens for a very long time, he will hit 60-70 drones ridiculously fast, once creep is spread, there is nothing you can do to stop him from taking his 3rd and 4th
-3rd base is hard to get since you HAVE to tech to collosus or mass gates first, otherwise you will be busted
-Unscouted hydra drops

1 2 3 4 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
IPSL
19:00
Ro24 Group D
Sziky vs Havi
Artosis vs Klauso
Airneanach113
Liquipedia
Safe House 2
17:00
Playoffs
TriGGeR vs Cham
Astrea vs TBD
ZombieGrub683
TKL 209
CosmosSc2 58
EnkiAlexander 49
3DClanTV 42
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ZombieGrub683
TKL 209
PiGStarcraft157
JuggernautJason84
ProTech74
CosmosSc2 58
StarCraft: Brood War
Larva 852
Mong 65
NaDa 29
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K585
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu532
Khaldor445
Other Games
Grubby2626
ScreaM1689
fl0m1254
Pyrionflax202
Maynarde36
ToD23
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick3583
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• musti20045 24
• Adnapsc2 16
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 33
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler79
League of Legends
• Doublelift1550
Other Games
• imaqtpie1917
• Shiphtur169
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
12h 37m
Monday Night Weeklies
18h 37m
WardiTV Invitational
1d 13h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 17h
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
Online Event
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
Snow vs Soma
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS2
WardiTV TLMC #15
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
EC S1
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
RSL Offline Finals
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
CranK Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.