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Good evening TL,
As many of you I've been watching MLG this weekend and I've fallen in love with oGsMC's Forge Fast Expand build that he has been using on Shakuras and Tal Darim against Zergs. If you don't want to be spoiled, don't read any further and go watch MC's games before.
I haven't got much experience playing with it so I won't make a guide out of this but I would like people to discuss about it, what it is weak against etc... I'll be trying to analyze it as best I can, I am 1200 EU master protoss so you can take my interpretation for what you think it is worth ^^
Build order :
9 Pylon -> scout (rally 8th worker to natural entrance)
CB Nexus
13 Forge (rally 12th worker to pylon) (if you haven't found the zerg then -> scout )
CB Nexus x 2
Probes up to 17 (or 18 if you sent 2 scouts) then stop probes
Nexus
Gateway
Cannon
Gas (3 probes asap)
Pylon
Probe (if you are at 17)
Gas (3 probes asap)
Resume probes (at both nexus)
1 or 2 CB on probes
Cybercore (wall off)
Stargate
{Warpgate research ; Pylon ; Sentry ; (extra cannon) }
3 x Void ray (chronoboosted) then phoenix + stuff you can afford out of your gateways
eventually you'll also want to add 3 or 4 additional gates and a robo bay before taking a third.
The build order is somewhat loose and depends on what you scout. oGsMC is comfortable with getting his forge at 16 if he scouts 14 gas 14 pool for example. He always gets it at 13 if he didn't scout his opponent with first probe. The order of the stuff in { } is dependent on the situation, whether you feel safe or not. MC has this kind of spider sense that allows him to know when he needs another cannon and when he can get away with only one. If you think you have a good read on your opponent and he is not roach/ling pushing you, you can skip the second cannon. Keeping your probe alive as long as possible is critical to get as much scouting information as you can.
You can hide your second scouting probe (if you sent it) in a corner somewhere for proxy pylons or just scouting third expansion timing.
Chronoboost must be spent exclusively on probes but have enough remaining to chrono out your three void rays and phoenix.
When you are ready to get out of your base, build an extra cybercore or an extra forge and break one of your structures down. If you used a pylon to wall off, break that instead.
Building placements :
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WVgjr.jpg) On tal darim![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pSIBR.jpg) On shakuras
Purpose of the build :
The aim the build is to allow you to fast expand while being safe against any all-in the zerg can throw at you (roach/ling all in with possible hatch cancel ). The Void Rays hard counter the roach ling push and come out at the right timing. The void rays also solve a problem with fast expand which is lack of map control and fast third from the zerg while mass droning. With your void rays you can pressure the third of your opponent which is not yet connected by creep and force a cancel at best, or at least a bunch of queens and spores or hydras. You need to be active with your void rays killing stray overlords etc... based on what you see with them you will transition into the mid game.
Transitions :
This part I would need the community’s help 
In my opinion there are few things you can see with your void rays .
1) 3 base , queens spores and drones.
2) 3 base less queens, less spores and a couple of hydras
3) 2 base
1) Zerg is taking the economic lead, you need to make something happen. Either take a third of your own and set up a good defense or gear up for a 2 base timing attack.
MC went for a chargelot push vs Losira for example as he hadn't seen any roaches from Losira. I would probably try a 5 gate Stargate +1/+1 timing attack or something like that.
2)This is IMO the answer that you are expecting from zerg. When you see the hydras, I think you can back off a bit and just try to prevent zerg from spreading the creep, kill the overlords around your base etc ... Then tech up to colossi and take a third. (slow hydras aren't a real threat if you are controlling the creep spread). Stop air unit production when you spot hydras.
3) If you don't scout a third, you need to go into panic mode IMO. Scout for hidden expansions and if you don't find any, expect an all in. Be proactive about shutting down any nydus play inside your base. Add gateways and maybe a cannon. If you saw hydras, stop making void rays. If zerg doesn't have a third and isn't all-inning he is behind anyway so you can afford extra defensive stuff.
Cheesing :
If you scout a hatch first build from zerg, and no patrolling drone at the ramp or at the choke, instead of putting down a nexus at 17 you can do the 3 pylon wall in and place a cannon outside. (strategy detailed here : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226952 )
Replays :
Replays from MLG (not all of these are winning replays)
oGsMC VS IMLosirA on MLG Shakuras Plateau - #56894
IMLosirA VS oGsMC on MLG Tal'darim Altar - #56904
EGIdrA VS oGsMC on MLG Shakuras Plateau - #56790
Moon VS oGsMC on MLG Tal'darim Altar - #56765
Discussion :
So what do you guys think of this build ? I think it is a great build to set you up for a nice long macro game. I've played with it many times today and either I won in the first 10 minutes, or I was able to play some very interesting macro games.
I'd like to know what you guys think this build is week against, does it work only because people aren't used to it or does this have the potential to become the standard, safe way to play on shakuras and Tal d'arim altar ?
I hope you all give it a try, in any case it is a pretty fun way to play PvZ.
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thanks. i was going to go through the replays myself to grab this but now i dont have to.
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It was the kind of thing that seemed like MC made it up on the fly after being busted so much after expanding. My biggest fear for the build is the Idra style Hydra creep highway and/or nydus play. It seems that would rape pure gateway + air openings. Depends on how fast MC can get colossus up afterwards.
Oh, and in my opinion, the three void ray follow up is really bad. One void ray + phoenix follow up is much better for shutting down the third, and having that man void rays doesn't help too much, using that extra money for fast colossus seems like a better use.
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It is interesting that he cuts probes for so long in order to get his infrastructure up and counts on Chronoboost to make up the difference. It has been awhile since I've actually played an SC2 game, is this something common among professional protoss builds? Chronoboost is such an unexplored mechanic. It seems like a godsend to the players who love to really tinker with optimal build orders.
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Saw this so much watching the stream on Saturday and Sunday. This gives me a reason to fimiliarize myself more with the Stargate and more chances to own zerg
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
what i dont understand of this build is why 3Voids?? if u keep doing voids u are telling to zergs come with hydra and boost me.
can someone explain this to me?
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You don't actually build 3 voids in every case. The reason MC did this is because zerg tried to bust him early. This means zerg has delayed his lair tech and voidrays can be more effective against the delayed lair. You want to cut voids at 3 though because you will need to get phoenix to deal with the queens eventually but up until that point the void rays are just better at dealing with spores and low numbers of queens.
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
On June 07 2011 11:20 Vathus wrote:
You don't actually build 3 voids in every case. The reason MC did this is because zerg tried to bust him early. This means zerg has delayed his lair tech and voidrays can be more effective with the delayed lair. You want to cut voids at 3 though because you will need to get phoenix to deal with the queens eventually.
so u have to do 1void in case of early roach, and kill ovis arround your base, and scout with that
void.
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On June 07 2011 11:23 2GRe-Play- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 11:20 Vathus wrote:
You don't actually build 3 voids in every case. The reason MC did this is because zerg tried to bust him early. This means zerg has delayed his lair tech and voidrays can be more effective with the delayed lair. You want to cut voids at 3 though because you will need to get phoenix to deal with the queens eventually. so u have to do 1void in case of early roach, and kill ovis arround your base, and scout with that void.
You should always get 1 void ray for both defense and the ability to delay the zergs 3rd. After that you usually follow up with 4 phoenix or you can even throw down a 2nd stargate after starting the void and build up to around 12-13 phoenix but it's all preference.
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Nice write up. The biggest strength of this build is definitely it's ability to hold off roach all ins with the void ray. Every time MC faced a roach / ling all in it seemed his void ray finished just in time to repell the attack. Also, it gives Protoss some map control and harass opportunity
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Biggest weakness with forge FE in general is that zerg can make nothing but drones for up to the 8-9 min mark.
Instant 3 base down, and if they are able to defend your void ray you end up pretty far behind
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It seemed like MC barely held the pushes though...maybe it looks a lot closer than it seems, I dunno...
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You can hardly call it MC's strategy. People were doing this during the beta.
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I think 2VR's is a good number, because it promotes at least one of the queen to be pooling energy for Transfuse.
I think the 3rd unit should be a phoenix, unless you sense you're going to be under heavy pressure.
I tend to use the phoenix as my scout unit, since I'll have very very few sentries, and no hallucination (and probably wont end up getting it at all with FFE...)
I'm not sure rushing to collosus after VR openings is the correct choice, it feels very fragile, and when I've lost doing it, it's either to hydra drop or hydra creep highway.
I have been toying around with blink stalkers as a follow-up to VR's. If I see the potential for hydra drop. Your VR/Phoenix should be able to spot the ovie's coming, and blink lets you get your stalkers ASAP to the edge of your base to deal with the drop.
Collosus tend to rely on having things in front of them (FF's or gate units), both of which you'll probably be short on. Blink stalkers are the army comp that relies the least on FF's, so they're good probably the best thing for fighting inside your base, when you're already low on sentries.
Have not been able to test my blink stalker follow up enough, as I'm not quite adept enough at reading the hydra drop, but in the few cases I have done it, it's been really good - subject to player skill etc etc...
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On June 07 2011 11:48 Lennon wrote:
You can hardly call it MC's strategy. People were doing this during the beta.
So what, I doubt the "people" who did it during the beta can execute it as cleanly as MC can. And people will always follow the guy who can best execute it which in this case is MC. Nice writeup btw
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I have no idea how MC pulls this off, everytime I open star and zerg isn't roach linging me I'm behind. I feel like it's better to play a ground protoss army, whether that means extra cannons or dts.
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Ehm... this tactic its been out there forever i think :o
Nice of you to put up a bo tho
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@Oreo7
i wanna say it was the metalopolis match against Idra (second series where he 4-0d him) or losira but im not 100%, that even though he did do a roach ling rush, the void rays still got defended against, and MC demonstrated a nice transition after about 3 voids and 4-5 phoenixs, he expanded to a 3rd and started making collosi and blink stalkers.
that Being said, losira Vs MC(when MC was eliminated) showed exactly how to counter and effectively win this particular wall off. *Spoiler-As soon as losira spotted the void rays he threw a few spore crawlers down and a hydra den. as soon as the den finished he threw down a nydus network. after he repelled the VR/Phoenix harass he used his zergling and overlords to spot 3 different nydus worms, brought in mass hydras and queens to drop creep tumors, and basically poked from all sides til he over ran MC. thats just my 2 cents on it, if any of you want i have the replays saved so i can link them for you to watch.
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I think this is the future of the FFE. Great build, and very safe
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Forge FE into air play is nothing new, future off PvZ my ass. You do it on maps you can wall off, otherwise you usually 3 gate expo or do 1 base play.
Strengths:
-Usually faster expo than zerg, if they hatch first you can cannon rush
-Map control, deny zerg's 3rd, kill ovies
-Safe vs roach/ling all-ins(zerg will still break you if you don't defend properly)
-Opens up every tech tree for protoss
Weaknesses:
-Requires a lot of APM to do effectively
-Low amount of gateway units
-Zerg can pump only drones and a few queens for a very long time, he will hit 60-70 drones ridiculously fast, once creep is spread, there is nothing you can do to stop him from taking his 3rd and 4th
-3rd base is hard to get since you HAVE to tech to collosus or mass gates first, otherwise you will be busted
-Unscouted hydra drops
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EPT
