|
On June 07 2011 23:25 turdburgler wrote:how to play like ogsMC 1.forge expand 2.quick tech to stargate with the standard 1 void ray + x phoenix's 2b.send a probe out while your stargate is building, if you smell roach/ling push add 2nd and 3rd cannon. 3.rally void ray to their third base 4.even if you do 0 damage instantly tech to colossus and blink with minimal units pray they dont attack you for the next 2 minutes (see idra mc g2 on meta, even with perfect control idra did massive damage due to the "tech to everything approach") 5. when lance is done start third base 6. turtle till max 7. omnomnom im only making this post because i feel that mc isnt doing anything 'special' in the pvz match up, stargate early was already popular. and like tyler has pointed out before, he takes risks. when not a single person at mlg has noticed his tech to everything style even after doing 0 damage its easy to see why he is so successful 
His "tech to everything" style is complimented by the fact that protoss has excellenet defensive capabilities. If a zerg was teching roach baneling muta infestor all at once, it'd be much easier to strike a timing, but with protoss it's harder to do so because of how well they can turtle up.
I'm not crying imbalance, I'm just giving a response to why this works. One can't argue that MC's execution and mechanics are much better than a lot of protoss out there. Protoss players know about these builds, but they simply don't execute it as well as he does. He takes risks because he practices a ton and knows that he can survive even when he takes these risks
|
If anything else this was well written, and personally helped me to realize that I've been executing this build poorly.
Thanks for the post.
|
On June 07 2011 23:03 jhk0219 wrote:
~1k master zerg here.
This is what I thought too, as hydras are supposed to counter warp gate units.... If you watched the 6th and final game of the extended series between Idra and MC on Testbug, you'll see that blink stalkers actually did just fine against hydras. MC got colossi at first, and Idra responded by making just the right number of corruptors to kill them off. It didn't matter, though.
I don't think nydus is an easy option to take, because most good protoss players spread out the pylons, and just 1-2 warp ins of zealots can kill of the nydus. It's a huge investment for the zerg player to get nydus and if it fails, we come out pretty behind.
If you watch the game, Losira doesn't put his first nydus IN the opponent's base. It's on Tal'Darim altar, and he nyduses near where the 3rd (with the rocks) first, pokes the front while killing the forge and some cannons and at the same time nyduses within the base. MC can see the nydus but can't really do much about it, and then Losira pulls back into the first worm and pops out the second. Nydus doesn't have to be IN the base, but it, like the Warp Gate, allows you to reinforce extremely quickly.
Blink stalkers do "just fine" against practically everything, but in that case it was a somewhat even number of stalkers (even slightly more) vs hydras. In theory, more hydras + some lings would still decimate that composition. Idra didn't need to ragequit that game... so silly.
|
On June 08 2011 03:49 TheSambassador wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 23:03 jhk0219 wrote:
~1k master zerg here.
This is what I thought too, as hydras are supposed to counter warp gate units.... If you watched the 6th and final game of the extended series between Idra and MC on Testbug, you'll see that blink stalkers actually did just fine against hydras. MC got colossi at first, and Idra responded by making just the right number of corruptors to kill them off. It didn't matter, though.
I don't think nydus is an easy option to take, because most good protoss players spread out the pylons, and just 1-2 warp ins of zealots can kill of the nydus. It's a huge investment for the zerg player to get nydus and if it fails, we come out pretty behind. If you watch the game, Losira doesn't put his first nydus IN the opponent's base. It's on Tal'Darim altar, and he nyduses near where the 3rd (with the rocks) first, pokes the front while killing the forge and some cannons and at the same time nyduses within the base. MC can see the nydus but can't really do much about it, and then Losira pulls back into the first worm and pops out the second. Nydus doesn't have to be IN the base, but it, like the Warp Gate, allows you to reinforce extremely quickly. Blink stalkers do "just fine" against practically everything, but in that case it was a somewhat even number of stalkers (even slightly more) vs hydras. In theory, more hydras + some lings would still decimate that composition. Idra didn't need to ragequit that game... so silly.
Hydralisk costs more than blink stalkers and is a tier 2 unit, but somehow there should be more hydralisks to beat stalkers? This doesn't make much sense to me.
I didn't watch that specific game of Losira vs MC, but fact still remains that it's costly for the zerg player to attempt nydus worm play. It's just really situational and when it's blocked the damage done is nowhere near the same as losing a proxy pylon
|
On June 08 2011 03:53 jhk0219 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 03:49 TheSambassador wrote:On June 07 2011 23:03 jhk0219 wrote:
~1k master zerg here.
This is what I thought too, as hydras are supposed to counter warp gate units.... If you watched the 6th and final game of the extended series between Idra and MC on Testbug, you'll see that blink stalkers actually did just fine against hydras. MC got colossi at first, and Idra responded by making just the right number of corruptors to kill them off. It didn't matter, though.
I don't think nydus is an easy option to take, because most good protoss players spread out the pylons, and just 1-2 warp ins of zealots can kill of the nydus. It's a huge investment for the zerg player to get nydus and if it fails, we come out pretty behind. If you watch the game, Losira doesn't put his first nydus IN the opponent's base. It's on Tal'Darim altar, and he nyduses near where the 3rd (with the rocks) first, pokes the front while killing the forge and some cannons and at the same time nyduses within the base. MC can see the nydus but can't really do much about it, and then Losira pulls back into the first worm and pops out the second. Nydus doesn't have to be IN the base, but it, like the Warp Gate, allows you to reinforce extremely quickly. Blink stalkers do "just fine" against practically everything, but in that case it was a somewhat even number of stalkers (even slightly more) vs hydras. In theory, more hydras + some lings would still decimate that composition. Idra didn't need to ragequit that game... so silly. Hydralisk costs more than blink stalkers and is a tier 2 unit, but somehow there should be more hydralisks to beat stalkers? This doesn't make much sense to me. I didn't watch that specific game of Losira vs MC, but fact still remains that it's costly for the zerg player to attempt nydus worm play. It's just really situational and when it's blocked the damage done is nowhere near the same as losing a proxy pylon
Hydralisks don't cost more than blink stalkers, which are also T2.
On June 08 2011 03:44 Scrubington wrote:
If anything else this was well written, and personally helped me to realize that I've been executing this build poorly.
Thanks for the post.
Thanks, I appreciate 
|
On June 08 2011 03:57 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 03:53 jhk0219 wrote:On June 08 2011 03:49 TheSambassador wrote:On June 07 2011 23:03 jhk0219 wrote:
~1k master zerg here.
This is what I thought too, as hydras are supposed to counter warp gate units.... If you watched the 6th and final game of the extended series between Idra and MC on Testbug, you'll see that blink stalkers actually did just fine against hydras. MC got colossi at first, and Idra responded by making just the right number of corruptors to kill them off. It didn't matter, though.
I don't think nydus is an easy option to take, because most good protoss players spread out the pylons, and just 1-2 warp ins of zealots can kill of the nydus. It's a huge investment for the zerg player to get nydus and if it fails, we come out pretty behind. If you watch the game, Losira doesn't put his first nydus IN the opponent's base. It's on Tal'Darim altar, and he nyduses near where the 3rd (with the rocks) first, pokes the front while killing the forge and some cannons and at the same time nyduses within the base. MC can see the nydus but can't really do much about it, and then Losira pulls back into the first worm and pops out the second. Nydus doesn't have to be IN the base, but it, like the Warp Gate, allows you to reinforce extremely quickly. Blink stalkers do "just fine" against practically everything, but in that case it was a somewhat even number of stalkers (even slightly more) vs hydras. In theory, more hydras + some lings would still decimate that composition. Idra didn't need to ragequit that game... so silly. Hydralisk costs more than blink stalkers and is a tier 2 unit, but somehow there should be more hydralisks to beat stalkers? This doesn't make much sense to me. I didn't watch that specific game of Losira vs MC, but fact still remains that it's costly for the zerg player to attempt nydus worm play. It's just really situational and when it's blocked the damage done is nowhere near the same as losing a proxy pylon Hydralisks don't cost more than blink stalkers, which are also T2.
Lol exactly. Blink requires a twilight council and stalkers are 125/50 to the 100/50 of hydras. Plus there's a reason no one goes pure hydra in ZvZ for example, because they're glass cannons. Sure they do a lot of DPS but without anything to tank for them they just die quickly before they are able to sufficiently cut into rows of blink stalkers.
|
On June 08 2011 03:59 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 03:57 Geiko wrote:On June 08 2011 03:53 jhk0219 wrote:On June 08 2011 03:49 TheSambassador wrote:On June 07 2011 23:03 jhk0219 wrote:
~1k master zerg here.
This is what I thought too, as hydras are supposed to counter warp gate units.... If you watched the 6th and final game of the extended series between Idra and MC on Testbug, you'll see that blink stalkers actually did just fine against hydras. MC got colossi at first, and Idra responded by making just the right number of corruptors to kill them off. It didn't matter, though.
I don't think nydus is an easy option to take, because most good protoss players spread out the pylons, and just 1-2 warp ins of zealots can kill of the nydus. It's a huge investment for the zerg player to get nydus and if it fails, we come out pretty behind. If you watch the game, Losira doesn't put his first nydus IN the opponent's base. It's on Tal'Darim altar, and he nyduses near where the 3rd (with the rocks) first, pokes the front while killing the forge and some cannons and at the same time nyduses within the base. MC can see the nydus but can't really do much about it, and then Losira pulls back into the first worm and pops out the second. Nydus doesn't have to be IN the base, but it, like the Warp Gate, allows you to reinforce extremely quickly. Blink stalkers do "just fine" against practically everything, but in that case it was a somewhat even number of stalkers (even slightly more) vs hydras. In theory, more hydras + some lings would still decimate that composition. Idra didn't need to ragequit that game... so silly. Hydralisk costs more than blink stalkers and is a tier 2 unit, but somehow there should be more hydralisks to beat stalkers? This doesn't make much sense to me. I didn't watch that specific game of Losira vs MC, but fact still remains that it's costly for the zerg player to attempt nydus worm play. It's just really situational and when it's blocked the damage done is nowhere near the same as losing a proxy pylon Hydralisks don't cost more than blink stalkers, which are also T2. Lol exactly. Blink requires a twilight council and stalkers are 125/50 to the 100/50 of hydras.
My mistake, hydras do not cost more than stalkers.
At any rate, hydras do require the hydralisk den and the upgrade :O. In the game of MC vs Idra, Idra's hydra force got slaughtered pretty badly, although they were on equal numbers, if not more hydras. It's quite hard to deal with if the protoss player micros decently, at least until tier 3.
|
that was because he got eaten by the DTs not because the Stalkers were so good.
Stalker vs. Hydra is not a fight you want to go in as Toss at least not without an advantage.
Idra didn't even need to engage there...
|
On June 08 2011 04:42 freetgy wrote:
that was because he got eaten by the DTs not because the Stalkers were so good.
Stalker vs. Hydra is not a fight you want to go in as Toss at least not without an advantage.
Idra didn't even need to engage there...
?????????? He didn't get eaten by DTs. At all. DT's were sent to Idra's 4th and 5th base to harass worker line, not decimate the hydras. No doubt that DT's did damage, but I actually think MC could have won even without the DT's because he won the stalker vs hydra fight so decisively.
DTs were in the game but they didn't actually contribute to the fight.
|
I love using stargate in PvZ so much, phoenix are the best unit in the game :DD
|
On June 07 2011 11:02 confusedcrib wrote:
It was the kind of thing that seemed like MC made it up on the fly after being busted so much after expanding. My biggest fear for the build is the Idra style Hydra creep highway and/or nydus play. It seems that would rape pure gateway + air openings. Depends on how fast MC can get colossus up afterwards.
Oh, and in my opinion, the three void ray follow up is really bad. One void ray + phoenix follow up is much better for shutting down the third, and having that man void rays doesn't help too much, using that extra money for fast colossus seems like a better use.
??? This is the exact build Ace and like every other protoss have been using since forever. MC definitely did not make it up on the fly.
|
Ideally with the Stargate or double stargate, denying the opponent's 3rd base while ya keep killing their queens. Mass up protoss deathball on 2/3 bases and roll em. So really the phoenix/void ray stuff is too keep your opponent busy and hopeful wasting resources on Hydralisk while you tech to colossus.
|
On June 07 2011 23:14 Binabik wrote:
The cool thing about this build is that it's autowin against 15Hatch and that it's autowin against pool first.
I used to play 16 Nexus, but I think this build is much safer!
what? rofl? what beats it then
|
On June 08 2011 04:03 jhk0219 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 03:59 Heavenly wrote:On June 08 2011 03:57 Geiko wrote:On June 08 2011 03:53 jhk0219 wrote:On June 08 2011 03:49 TheSambassador wrote:On June 07 2011 23:03 jhk0219 wrote:
~1k master zerg here.
This is what I thought too, as hydras are supposed to counter warp gate units.... If you watched the 6th and final game of the extended series between Idra and MC on Testbug, you'll see that blink stalkers actually did just fine against hydras. MC got colossi at first, and Idra responded by making just the right number of corruptors to kill them off. It didn't matter, though.
I don't think nydus is an easy option to take, because most good protoss players spread out the pylons, and just 1-2 warp ins of zealots can kill of the nydus. It's a huge investment for the zerg player to get nydus and if it fails, we come out pretty behind. If you watch the game, Losira doesn't put his first nydus IN the opponent's base. It's on Tal'Darim altar, and he nyduses near where the 3rd (with the rocks) first, pokes the front while killing the forge and some cannons and at the same time nyduses within the base. MC can see the nydus but can't really do much about it, and then Losira pulls back into the first worm and pops out the second. Nydus doesn't have to be IN the base, but it, like the Warp Gate, allows you to reinforce extremely quickly. Blink stalkers do "just fine" against practically everything, but in that case it was a somewhat even number of stalkers (even slightly more) vs hydras. In theory, more hydras + some lings would still decimate that composition. Idra didn't need to ragequit that game... so silly. Hydralisk costs more than blink stalkers and is a tier 2 unit, but somehow there should be more hydralisks to beat stalkers? This doesn't make much sense to me. I didn't watch that specific game of Losira vs MC, but fact still remains that it's costly for the zerg player to attempt nydus worm play. It's just really situational and when it's blocked the damage done is nowhere near the same as losing a proxy pylon Hydralisks don't cost more than blink stalkers, which are also T2. Lol exactly. Blink requires a twilight council and stalkers are 125/50 to the 100/50 of hydras. My mistake, hydras do not cost more than stalkers. At any rate, hydras do require the hydralisk den and the upgrade :O. In the game of MC vs Idra, Idra's hydra force got slaughtered pretty badly, although they were on equal numbers, if not more hydras. It's quite hard to deal with if the protoss player micros decently, at least until tier 3.
Why do you insist on being wrong ? ^^
It was 57 stalkers vs 41 hydras. What is surprising about the stalkers winning this ?
|
As a high diamond zerg I find that this is a very hard strategy to counter and that it is a very smart one. With a forge expand you always get your expo before the zerg which is bad for the zerg. Getting air fast versus zerg eliminates their overlord spotting and isolates them and prevents them from getting a fast third to counter you. They must get a quick lair to respond and with hydras which you will then respond with colusssus.
It is very abusable and I think the current zerg metagame doesn't have a counter for this at the moment.
|
On June 08 2011 20:14 Olsson wrote:
As a high diamond zerg I find that this is a very hard strategy to counter and that it is a very smart one. With a forge expand you always get your expo before the zerg which is bad for the zerg. Getting air fast versus zerg eliminates their overlord spotting and isolates them and prevents them from getting a fast third to counter you. They must get a quick lair to respond and with hydras which you will then respond with colusssus.
It is very abusable and I think the current zerg metagame doesn't have a counter for this at the moment.
Go and watch idrA vs MC on test bug from mlg, that is the best and most economic way to handle it, just ignore the part where his army gets rolled at the end of the game...
|
I'm kind of in two minds about this build. On one hand, it is a solid opening that keeps you reasonably safe against most roach/ling all-in variations; on the other hand, if the Zerg prepares for it with queens / a couple spores, you're basically screwed as teching to Colo & making enough gateway units is going to take you ages and the Zerg will take an uncontested third and possibly fourth, and be able to saturate them perfectly before you can apply any real pressure.
I think some variation of this build where you stick to gateway + void rays for a little longer and attempt to do some damage in response to mass queens + spores might work better than just turtling on 2 base and waiting for Colossus tech? Not too sure.
Also, wouldn't a fast robotics instead of the stargate perform just as well against roach/ling pressure - assuming you target fire the roaches properly? Feel like it'd give you a much stronger midgame against that very likely hydra transition from Zerg.
edit: as for 'stalkers beating hydra'... MC beat Idra's hydra in that particular game because he had quite a few more stalkers compared to Idra's hydra, and 2 dts 2-shotting hydras since before the fight even started is HUGE. Pure hydra vs pure stalker with even numbers would be extremelly close, I think stalkers could maaaaaybe win it with perfect blink micro but I'm not sure about that - also, blink stalker is basically the best 'solo' unit, hydras need roach / infestor to support them to really shine.
|
On June 08 2011 05:44 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 11:02 confusedcrib wrote:
It was the kind of thing that seemed like MC made it up on the fly after being busted so much after expanding. My biggest fear for the build is the Idra style Hydra creep highway and/or nydus play. It seems that would rape pure gateway + air openings. Depends on how fast MC can get colossus up afterwards.
Oh, and in my opinion, the three void ray follow up is really bad. One void ray + phoenix follow up is much better for shutting down the third, and having that man void rays doesn't help too much, using that extra money for fast colossus seems like a better use. ??? This is the exact build Ace and like every other protoss have been using since forever. MC definitely did not make it up on the fly.
I think the point is that MC did that build not only on maps where he could block his expo but also on maps with open expo. I think it was something like 1 gate - expo - Stargate or 2 gate - expo - Stargate. And i know that Nexus into stargate on maps with open Expos was NOT a common build compared to 3 Gate expo. With 3 gate expo you have better chance to scout with hallu and prepare for any unit combinations. Recently (thanks to some Z... ) this became a really difficult build because of some deadly all in timings from Z and MC did some "new" stuff like 3 Zeal push or early Stargate. Incontrol had some ideas too like blocking the ramp with 2 cannons or blocking expo with pylon + cyber (nothing really new but you have to do something to delay Z ling roach timing).
I think Stargate builds die to well prepared macro Zergs and can only win with damn good Micro. On the other side you are very fragile with any other build concerning early all ins and you don't have any scouting information. So the coin flip principle continues.
|
On June 08 2011 20:44 loklok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:44 PJA wrote:On June 07 2011 11:02 confusedcrib wrote:
It was the kind of thing that seemed like MC made it up on the fly after being busted so much after expanding. My biggest fear for the build is the Idra style Hydra creep highway and/or nydus play. It seems that would rape pure gateway + air openings. Depends on how fast MC can get colossus up afterwards.
Oh, and in my opinion, the three void ray follow up is really bad. One void ray + phoenix follow up is much better for shutting down the third, and having that man void rays doesn't help too much, using that extra money for fast colossus seems like a better use. ??? This is the exact build Ace and like every other protoss have been using since forever. MC definitely did not make it up on the fly. I think the point is that MC did that build not only on maps where he could block his expo but also on maps with open expo. I think it was something like 1 gate - expo - Stargate or 2 gate - expo - Stargate. And i know that Nexus into stargate on maps with open Expos was NOT a common build compared to 3 Gate expo. With 3 gate expo you have better chance to scout with hallu and prepare for any unit combinations. Recently (thanks to some Z... ) this became a really difficult build because of some deadly all in timings from Z and MC did some "new" stuff like 3 Zeal push or early Stargate. Incontrol had some ideas too like blocking the ramp with 2 cannons or blocking expo with pylon + cyber (nothing really new but you have to do something to delay Z ling roach timing). I think Stargate builds die to well prepared macro Zergs and can only win with damn good Micro. On the other side you are very fragile with any other build concerning early all ins and you don't have any scouting information. So the coin flip principle continues.
3Gate Stargate was a very common build, nowadays you can do 1gate/2gate Stargate because of the Sentry buildtime buff, you can chrono sentries out quickly and expand faster. White-ra does it a ton on his stream when hes playing somewhat standard, if you watch the 12 weeks with the Pros episode with Socke that happened a month or two ago, it is the build he suggests as well.
This isn't a new build, it has been around for ages, people are just getting better. It allows you to expand safely, deter Muta play and clear out all the Overlords around the map. It can kill super fast thirds as well. It is weak to those Hydra/Ling all-ins but you should be able to see that coming with the Phoenix and prepare. You don't exactly need great micro, it isn't difficult killing Queens and slow overlords with Phoenix/Voidray :S You just don't want to over extend and lose the Voidray
|
skipping gateway upgrade and sentries makes voidrays come out incredibly fast... but when do i take the 3rd gas and the sentries?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
