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Good evening TL,
As many of you I've been watching MLG this weekend and I've fallen in love with oGsMC's Forge Fast Expand build that he has been using on Shakuras and Tal Darim against Zergs. If you don't want to be spoiled, don't read any further and go watch MC's games before.
I haven't got much experience playing with it so I won't make a guide out of this but I would like people to discuss about it, what it is weak against etc... I'll be trying to analyze it as best I can, I am 1200 EU master protoss so you can take my interpretation for what you think it is worth ^^
Build order :
9 Pylon -> scout (rally 8th worker to natural entrance)
CB Nexus
13 Forge (rally 12th worker to pylon) (if you haven't found the zerg then -> scout )
CB Nexus x 2
Probes up to 17 (or 18 if you sent 2 scouts) then stop probes
Nexus
Gateway
Cannon
Gas (3 probes asap)
Pylon
Probe (if you are at 17)
Gas (3 probes asap)
Resume probes (at both nexus)
1 or 2 CB on probes
Cybercore (wall off)
Stargate
{Warpgate research ; Pylon ; Sentry ; (extra cannon) }
3 x Void ray (chronoboosted) then phoenix + stuff you can afford out of your gateways
eventually you'll also want to add 3 or 4 additional gates and a robo bay before taking a third.
The build order is somewhat loose and depends on what you scout. oGsMC is comfortable with getting his forge at 16 if he scouts 14 gas 14 pool for example. He always gets it at 13 if he didn't scout his opponent with first probe. The order of the stuff in { } is dependent on the situation, whether you feel safe or not. MC has this kind of spider sense that allows him to know when he needs another cannon and when he can get away with only one. If you think you have a good read on your opponent and he is not roach/ling pushing you, you can skip the second cannon. Keeping your probe alive as long as possible is critical to get as much scouting information as you can.
You can hide your second scouting probe (if you sent it) in a corner somewhere for proxy pylons or just scouting third expansion timing.
Chronoboost must be spent exclusively on probes but have enough remaining to chrono out your three void rays and phoenix.
When you are ready to get out of your base, build an extra cybercore or an extra forge and break one of your structures down. If you used a pylon to wall off, break that instead.
Building placements :
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WVgjr.jpg) On tal darim![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pSIBR.jpg) On shakuras
Purpose of the build :
The aim the build is to allow you to fast expand while being safe against any all-in the zerg can throw at you (roach/ling all in with possible hatch cancel ). The Void Rays hard counter the roach ling push and come out at the right timing. The void rays also solve a problem with fast expand which is lack of map control and fast third from the zerg while mass droning. With your void rays you can pressure the third of your opponent which is not yet connected by creep and force a cancel at best, or at least a bunch of queens and spores or hydras. You need to be active with your void rays killing stray overlords etc... based on what you see with them you will transition into the mid game.
Transitions :
This part I would need the community’s help 
In my opinion there are few things you can see with your void rays .
1) 3 base , queens spores and drones.
2) 3 base less queens, less spores and a couple of hydras
3) 2 base
1) Zerg is taking the economic lead, you need to make something happen. Either take a third of your own and set up a good defense or gear up for a 2 base timing attack.
MC went for a chargelot push vs Losira for example as he hadn't seen any roaches from Losira. I would probably try a 5 gate Stargate +1/+1 timing attack or something like that.
2)This is IMO the answer that you are expecting from zerg. When you see the hydras, I think you can back off a bit and just try to prevent zerg from spreading the creep, kill the overlords around your base etc ... Then tech up to colossi and take a third. (slow hydras aren't a real threat if you are controlling the creep spread). Stop air unit production when you spot hydras.
3) If you don't scout a third, you need to go into panic mode IMO. Scout for hidden expansions and if you don't find any, expect an all in. Be proactive about shutting down any nydus play inside your base. Add gateways and maybe a cannon. If you saw hydras, stop making void rays. If zerg doesn't have a third and isn't all-inning he is behind anyway so you can afford extra defensive stuff.
Cheesing :
If you scout a hatch first build from zerg, and no patrolling drone at the ramp or at the choke, instead of putting down a nexus at 17 you can do the 3 pylon wall in and place a cannon outside. (strategy detailed here : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226952 )
Replays :
Replays from MLG (not all of these are winning replays)
oGsMC VS IMLosirA on MLG Shakuras Plateau - #56894
IMLosirA VS oGsMC on MLG Tal'darim Altar - #56904
EGIdrA VS oGsMC on MLG Shakuras Plateau - #56790
Moon VS oGsMC on MLG Tal'darim Altar - #56765
Discussion :
So what do you guys think of this build ? I think it is a great build to set you up for a nice long macro game. I've played with it many times today and either I won in the first 10 minutes, or I was able to play some very interesting macro games.
I'd like to know what you guys think this build is week against, does it work only because people aren't used to it or does this have the potential to become the standard, safe way to play on shakuras and Tal d'arim altar ?
I hope you all give it a try, in any case it is a pretty fun way to play PvZ.
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thanks. i was going to go through the replays myself to grab this but now i dont have to.
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It was the kind of thing that seemed like MC made it up on the fly after being busted so much after expanding. My biggest fear for the build is the Idra style Hydra creep highway and/or nydus play. It seems that would rape pure gateway + air openings. Depends on how fast MC can get colossus up afterwards.
Oh, and in my opinion, the three void ray follow up is really bad. One void ray + phoenix follow up is much better for shutting down the third, and having that man void rays doesn't help too much, using that extra money for fast colossus seems like a better use.
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It is interesting that he cuts probes for so long in order to get his infrastructure up and counts on Chronoboost to make up the difference. It has been awhile since I've actually played an SC2 game, is this something common among professional protoss builds? Chronoboost is such an unexplored mechanic. It seems like a godsend to the players who love to really tinker with optimal build orders.
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Saw this so much watching the stream on Saturday and Sunday. This gives me a reason to fimiliarize myself more with the Stargate and more chances to own zerg
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
what i dont understand of this build is why 3Voids?? if u keep doing voids u are telling to zergs come with hydra and boost me.
can someone explain this to me?
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You don't actually build 3 voids in every case. The reason MC did this is because zerg tried to bust him early. This means zerg has delayed his lair tech and voidrays can be more effective against the delayed lair. You want to cut voids at 3 though because you will need to get phoenix to deal with the queens eventually but up until that point the void rays are just better at dealing with spores and low numbers of queens.
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
On June 07 2011 11:20 Vathus wrote:
You don't actually build 3 voids in every case. The reason MC did this is because zerg tried to bust him early. This means zerg has delayed his lair tech and voidrays can be more effective with the delayed lair. You want to cut voids at 3 though because you will need to get phoenix to deal with the queens eventually.
so u have to do 1void in case of early roach, and kill ovis arround your base, and scout with that
void.
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On June 07 2011 11:23 2GRe-Play- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 11:20 Vathus wrote:
You don't actually build 3 voids in every case. The reason MC did this is because zerg tried to bust him early. This means zerg has delayed his lair tech and voidrays can be more effective with the delayed lair. You want to cut voids at 3 though because you will need to get phoenix to deal with the queens eventually. so u have to do 1void in case of early roach, and kill ovis arround your base, and scout with that void.
You should always get 1 void ray for both defense and the ability to delay the zergs 3rd. After that you usually follow up with 4 phoenix or you can even throw down a 2nd stargate after starting the void and build up to around 12-13 phoenix but it's all preference.
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Nice write up. The biggest strength of this build is definitely it's ability to hold off roach all ins with the void ray. Every time MC faced a roach / ling all in it seemed his void ray finished just in time to repell the attack. Also, it gives Protoss some map control and harass opportunity
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Biggest weakness with forge FE in general is that zerg can make nothing but drones for up to the 8-9 min mark.
Instant 3 base down, and if they are able to defend your void ray you end up pretty far behind
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It seemed like MC barely held the pushes though...maybe it looks a lot closer than it seems, I dunno...
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You can hardly call it MC's strategy. People were doing this during the beta.
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I think 2VR's is a good number, because it promotes at least one of the queen to be pooling energy for Transfuse.
I think the 3rd unit should be a phoenix, unless you sense you're going to be under heavy pressure.
I tend to use the phoenix as my scout unit, since I'll have very very few sentries, and no hallucination (and probably wont end up getting it at all with FFE...)
I'm not sure rushing to collosus after VR openings is the correct choice, it feels very fragile, and when I've lost doing it, it's either to hydra drop or hydra creep highway.
I have been toying around with blink stalkers as a follow-up to VR's. If I see the potential for hydra drop. Your VR/Phoenix should be able to spot the ovie's coming, and blink lets you get your stalkers ASAP to the edge of your base to deal with the drop.
Collosus tend to rely on having things in front of them (FF's or gate units), both of which you'll probably be short on. Blink stalkers are the army comp that relies the least on FF's, so they're good probably the best thing for fighting inside your base, when you're already low on sentries.
Have not been able to test my blink stalker follow up enough, as I'm not quite adept enough at reading the hydra drop, but in the few cases I have done it, it's been really good - subject to player skill etc etc...
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On June 07 2011 11:48 Lennon wrote:
You can hardly call it MC's strategy. People were doing this during the beta.
So what, I doubt the "people" who did it during the beta can execute it as cleanly as MC can. And people will always follow the guy who can best execute it which in this case is MC. Nice writeup btw
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I have no idea how MC pulls this off, everytime I open star and zerg isn't roach linging me I'm behind. I feel like it's better to play a ground protoss army, whether that means extra cannons or dts.
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Ehm... this tactic its been out there forever i think :o
Nice of you to put up a bo tho
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@Oreo7
i wanna say it was the metalopolis match against Idra (second series where he 4-0d him) or losira but im not 100%, that even though he did do a roach ling rush, the void rays still got defended against, and MC demonstrated a nice transition after about 3 voids and 4-5 phoenixs, he expanded to a 3rd and started making collosi and blink stalkers.
that Being said, losira Vs MC(when MC was eliminated) showed exactly how to counter and effectively win this particular wall off. *Spoiler-As soon as losira spotted the void rays he threw a few spore crawlers down and a hydra den. as soon as the den finished he threw down a nydus network. after he repelled the VR/Phoenix harass he used his zergling and overlords to spot 3 different nydus worms, brought in mass hydras and queens to drop creep tumors, and basically poked from all sides til he over ran MC. thats just my 2 cents on it, if any of you want i have the replays saved so i can link them for you to watch.
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I think this is the future of the FFE. Great build, and very safe
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Forge FE into air play is nothing new, future off PvZ my ass. You do it on maps you can wall off, otherwise you usually 3 gate expo or do 1 base play.
Strengths:
-Usually faster expo than zerg, if they hatch first you can cannon rush
-Map control, deny zerg's 3rd, kill ovies
-Safe vs roach/ling all-ins(zerg will still break you if you don't defend properly)
-Opens up every tech tree for protoss
Weaknesses:
-Requires a lot of APM to do effectively
-Low amount of gateway units
-Zerg can pump only drones and a few queens for a very long time, he will hit 60-70 drones ridiculously fast, once creep is spread, there is nothing you can do to stop him from taking his 3rd and 4th
-3rd base is hard to get since you HAVE to tech to collosus or mass gates first, otherwise you will be busted
-Unscouted hydra drops
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If Zerg doesn't take a fast third, he will either Roach/Ling you (in which case you need to get more Voidrays instead of Pheonix) or tech to Lair and Hydra/Ling bust your front and/or drop your base. In the Hydra case, you need to stop air production asap and slam down a lot more gateways.
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On June 07 2011 13:33 Oreo7 wrote:
I have no idea how MC pulls this off, everytime I open star and zerg isn't roach linging me I'm behind. I feel like it's better to play a ground protoss army, whether that means extra cannons or dts.
If he isn't roach/linging you then just get robo facility and bay before extra gateways.
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Double Nexus build into stargate play has been the top 3 most common PvZ builds for months now. Most players uses double stargate(which is usually built at or around 6:30) pumping phoenix for map control, scouting, and harassing. Usually players only uses 1 void ray since void ray doesnt give the map control and scouting that phoenix does, nor does it give the harassing power that phoenix does. The void is only used to attempt to kill zerg's 3rd while they're still weak on anti-air defenses
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On June 07 2011 15:46 b_unnies wrote:
Double Nexus build into stargate play has been the top 3 most common PvZ builds for months now. Most players uses double stargate(which is usually built at or around 6:30) pumping phoenix for map control, scouting, and harassing. Usually players only uses 1 void ray since void ray doesnt give the map control and scouting that phoenix does, nor does it give the harassing power that phoenix does. The void is only used to attempt to kill zerg's 3rd while they're still weak on anti-air defenses
Void is also there for anti roach-zergling all-in cheese. Thats the MAIN reason you build a stargate WHENEVER you double expo. It's a full must. However, after that, you must be wary of nydus AND drops. To counter this, if you don't see a zerg third, don't even bother going for robo tech or even build more voids or phoenixes. Cut probes, build gateways, start going crazy on gateway units with chronoboost. Put forcefields under overlords so they can't drop as fast and defend it.
If you defend it, feel free to take a third and aggravate the zerg a little, and then build up to a higher lead.
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On June 07 2011 16:07 ScythedBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 15:46 b_unnies wrote:
Double Nexus build into stargate play has been the top 3 most common PvZ builds for months now. Most players uses double stargate(which is usually built at or around 6:30) pumping phoenix for map control, scouting, and harassing. Usually players only uses 1 void ray since void ray doesnt give the map control and scouting that phoenix does, nor does it give the harassing power that phoenix does. The void is only used to attempt to kill zerg's 3rd while they're still weak on anti-air defenses Void is also there for anti roach-zergling all-in cheese. Thats the MAIN reason you build a stargate WHENEVER you double expo. It's a full must. However, after that, you must be wary of nydus AND drops. To counter this, if you don't see a zerg third, don't even bother going for robo tech or even build more voids or phoenixes. Cut probes, build gateways, start going crazy on gateway units with chronoboost. Put forcefields under overlords so they can't drop as fast and defend it. If you defend it, feel free to take a third and aggravate the zerg a little, and then build up to a higher lead.
your wall is the main reason that stops a roach/ling attack, all void does is supplement your defense. and no, the main reason for building stargate is contain zerg and hold off their economy
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I'm 50/50 about SG play tbh, it's become so standard in the matchup that good Zerg's will just make drones and defend with static defenses, and you're definitely right about a 2 base push after seeing this, because if you don't you just get overrun, The problem with this is that Zerg can definitely hold off any kind of 2 base if they're prepared for it. And I don't really know why people are calling this the future lol, this SG play has been pretty much standard in PvZ after an FE for like 5 months.
So yeah, honestly I don't like the build and I don't use it often unless I smell a cheese.
On June 07 2011 16:47 b_unnies wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 16:07 ScythedBlade wrote:On June 07 2011 15:46 b_unnies wrote:
Double Nexus build into stargate play has been the top 3 most common PvZ builds for months now. Most players uses double stargate(which is usually built at or around 6:30) pumping phoenix for map control, scouting, and harassing. Usually players only uses 1 void ray since void ray doesnt give the map control and scouting that phoenix does, nor does it give the harassing power that phoenix does. The void is only used to attempt to kill zerg's 3rd while they're still weak on anti-air defenses Void is also there for anti roach-zergling all-in cheese. Thats the MAIN reason you build a stargate WHENEVER you double expo. It's a full must. However, after that, you must be wary of nydus AND drops. To counter this, if you don't see a zerg third, don't even bother going for robo tech or even build more voids or phoenixes. Cut probes, build gateways, start going crazy on gateway units with chronoboost. Put forcefields under overlords so they can't drop as fast and defend it. If you defend it, feel free to take a third and aggravate the zerg a little, and then build up to a higher lead. your wall is the main reason that stops a roach/ling attack, all void does is supplement your defense. and no, the main reason for building stargate is contain zerg and hold off their economy
Not really, you can't hold off any sort of roach aggression with cannons unless you have like 5, how does VRs/Phoenix 'contain' a zerg :/. Zerg don't need to move out or anything, they will happily drone up.
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On June 07 2011 13:57 tsukiumi wrote:
@Oreo7
i wanna say it was the metalopolis match against Idra (second series where he 4-0d him) or losira but im not 100%, that even though he did do a roach ling rush, the void rays still got defended against, and MC demonstrated a nice transition after about 3 voids and 4-5 phoenixs, he expanded to a 3rd and started making collosi and blink stalkers.
that Being said, losira Vs MC(when MC was eliminated) showed exactly how to counter and effectively win this particular wall off. *Spoiler-As soon as losira spotted the void rays he threw a few spore crawlers down and a hydra den. as soon as the den finished he threw down a nydus network. after he repelled the VR/Phoenix harass he used his zergling and overlords to spot 3 different nydus worms, brought in mass hydras and queens to drop creep tumors, and basically poked from all sides til he over ran MC. thats just my 2 cents on it, if any of you want i have the replays saved so i can link them for you to watch.
If you rewatch the game vs Losira you'll see that Losira starts the Hydra Den before spotting the VR (I looked twice, it's that or I missed something)
Either "he knows" based on general scout info or it was already his plan upon seeing a FE.
see FE -> no fast colossi -> his plan is hitting at 9.50 with nydus and 11 Hydras and force MC to delay colossi.
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This isn't MC's build, it's pretty dang old. If scouted, double expand is the correct and common response.
Still, well written.
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"(in particular the famous Losira 2base roach/ling push)"
This is flat out wrong. The thing Losira is known for is a semiallin with ~30-35 drones against a 3 gate sentry expansion, the roach ling allin that people use against a forge FE stops at 14/15 drones and comes much earlier. it also often cancels the hatchery.
also note that against moon on TDA MC sent out another probe at a perfect timing, which made moon delay his roach ling push slighty (~10s) because he had to hide the roaches from the probe seeing it too quickly, had he not done this, it would have been a good bunch harder to defend against the push.
other than that, pretty good writeup
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the whole point of this build is to deny 3rd, dont know why people say zerg will pump drones and deny when thats not the case, notice how mc scouted with probes to have full info if Z went for fast 3rd to rally voids asap in that direction
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for people looking for counter: watch mondragon games in TSL and cruncher games! insight are there :D...
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On June 07 2011 17:44 DarKFoRcE wrote:
"(in particular the famous Losira 2base roach/ling push)"
This is flat out wrong. The thing Losira is known for is a semiallin with ~30-35 drones against a 3 gate sentry expansion, the roach ling allin that people use against a forge FE stops at 14/15 drones and comes much earlier. it also often cancels the hatchery.
also note that against moon on TDA MC sent out another probe at a perfect timing, which made moon delay his roach ling push slighty (~10s) because he had to hide the roaches from the probe seeing it too quickly, had he not done this, it would have been a good bunch harder to defend against the push.
other than that, pretty good writeup
Fixed that thank you ^^
To the people saying that this isn't anything new, I'm aware that the strat in itself isn't new, what I wanted to show is MC's take on this. It looks like he's been giving this build quite some thought and this particular BO looks very safe.
I've searched through TL for a good FFE opening because I've always wanted to try that style but there isn't a single thread about it, people just usually tell you to get a forge, a nexus and some cannons and then tech up to what you want and that isn't really helpful.
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On June 07 2011 11:03 Aquafresh wrote:
It is interesting that he cuts probes for so long in order to get his infrastructure up and counts on Chronoboost to make up the difference. It has been awhile since I've actually played an SC2 game, is this something common among professional protoss builds? Chronoboost is such an unexplored mechanic. It seems like a godsend to the players who love to really tinker with optimal build orders.
this is common for forge FE builds. Not entirely because you want the infrastructure, but because you want the wall-off. So 1 canon is enough to fend off lings and the zerg has to do that roach all-in if he wants to do any damage.
and because a zerg can't really hatch first vs forge first (canon rush) you will have a good economy compared to the zerg. if you metagame your opponent and you go for nexus first vs pool first, you are actually ahead and the zerg can't punish you excpet with that hatch-cancel roach all-in.
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You could add to purposes that it scouts what Zerg is doing.
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9 Pylon - CB Nexus
13 Forge
18 Nexus
18 Gateway
18 Canon
18 Assimilator
18 Pylon
18 Assimilator
19 Cybercore
27 Canon
28 Stargate
This is the buildorder.
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On June 07 2011 11:02 confusedcrib wrote:
It was the kind of thing that seemed like MC made it up on the fly after being busted so much after expanding. My biggest fear for the build is the Idra style Hydra creep highway and/or nydus play. It seems that would rape pure gateway + air openings. Depends on how fast MC can get colossus up afterwards.
Oh, and in my opinion, the three void ray follow up is really bad. One void ray + phoenix follow up is much better for shutting down the third, and having that man void rays doesn't help too much, using that extra money for fast colossus seems like a better use.
~1k master zerg here.
This is what I thought too, as hydras are supposed to counter warp gate units.... If you watched the 6th and final game of the extended series between Idra and MC on Testbug, you'll see that blink stalkers actually did just fine against hydras. MC got colossi at first, and Idra responded by making just the right number of corruptors to kill them off. It didn't matter, though.
I don't think nydus is an easy option to take, because most good protoss players spread out the pylons, and just 1-2 warp ins of zealots can kill of the nydus. It's a huge investment for the zerg player to get nydus and if it fails, we come out pretty behind.
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The cool thing about this build is that it's autowin against 15Hatch and that it's autowin against pool first.
I used to play 16 Nexus, but I think this build is much safer!
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how to play like ogsMC
1.forge expand
2.quick tech to stargate with the standard 1 void ray + x phoenix's
2b.send a probe out while your stargate is building, if you smell roach/ling push add 2nd and 3rd cannon.
3.rally void ray to their third base
4.even if you do 0 damage instantly tech to colossus and blink with minimal units
pray they dont attack you for the next 2 minutes
(see idra mc g2 on meta, even with perfect control idra did massive damage due to the "tech to everything approach")
5. when lance is done start third base
6. turtle till max
7. omnomnom
im only making this post because i feel that mc isnt doing anything 'special' in the pvz match up, stargate early was already popular. and like tyler has pointed out before, he takes risks. when not a single person at mlg has noticed his tech to everything style even after doing 0 damage its easy to see why he is so successful 
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I was at columbus watching and it blew me away how easily he dealt with the pushes... I have the most trouble defending the roach ling push and he mad it look easy.... while having a 2nd nexus ?! WHAT>!
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On June 07 2011 23:14 Binabik wrote:
The cool thing about this build is that it's autowin against 15Hatch and that it's autowin against pool first.
I used to play 16 Nexus, but I think this build is much safer!
I don't see how it's autowin against either of those openings. You might as well say this build just beats zerg 100%? This build doesnt guarantee you a win in any way shape or form
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On June 07 2011 23:25 turdburgler wrote:how to play like ogsMC 1.forge expand 2.quick tech to stargate with the standard 1 void ray + x phoenix's 2b.send a probe out while your stargate is building, if you smell roach/ling push add 2nd and 3rd cannon. 3.rally void ray to their third base 4.even if you do 0 damage instantly tech to colossus and blink with minimal units pray they dont attack you for the next 2 minutes (see idra mc g2 on meta, even with perfect control idra did massive damage due to the "tech to everything approach") 5. when lance is done start third base 6. turtle till max 7. omnomnom im only making this post because i feel that mc isnt doing anything 'special' in the pvz match up, stargate early was already popular. and like tyler has pointed out before, he takes risks. when not a single person at mlg has noticed his tech to everything style even after doing 0 damage its easy to see why he is so successful
His "tech to everything" style is complimented by the fact that protoss has excellenet defensive capabilities. If a zerg was teching roach baneling muta infestor all at once, it'd be much easier to strike a timing, but with protoss it's harder to do so because of how well they can turtle up.
I'm not crying imbalance, I'm just giving a response to why this works. One can't argue that MC's execution and mechanics are much better than a lot of protoss out there. Protoss players know about these builds, but they simply don't execute it as well as he does. He takes risks because he practices a ton and knows that he can survive even when he takes these risks
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If anything else this was well written, and personally helped me to realize that I've been executing this build poorly.
Thanks for the post.
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On June 07 2011 23:03 jhk0219 wrote:
~1k master zerg here.
This is what I thought too, as hydras are supposed to counter warp gate units.... If you watched the 6th and final game of the extended series between Idra and MC on Testbug, you'll see that blink stalkers actually did just fine against hydras. MC got colossi at first, and Idra responded by making just the right number of corruptors to kill them off. It didn't matter, though.
I don't think nydus is an easy option to take, because most good protoss players spread out the pylons, and just 1-2 warp ins of zealots can kill of the nydus. It's a huge investment for the zerg player to get nydus and if it fails, we come out pretty behind.
If you watch the game, Losira doesn't put his first nydus IN the opponent's base. It's on Tal'Darim altar, and he nyduses near where the 3rd (with the rocks) first, pokes the front while killing the forge and some cannons and at the same time nyduses within the base. MC can see the nydus but can't really do much about it, and then Losira pulls back into the first worm and pops out the second. Nydus doesn't have to be IN the base, but it, like the Warp Gate, allows you to reinforce extremely quickly.
Blink stalkers do "just fine" against practically everything, but in that case it was a somewhat even number of stalkers (even slightly more) vs hydras. In theory, more hydras + some lings would still decimate that composition. Idra didn't need to ragequit that game... so silly.
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On June 08 2011 03:49 TheSambassador wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 23:03 jhk0219 wrote:
~1k master zerg here.
This is what I thought too, as hydras are supposed to counter warp gate units.... If you watched the 6th and final game of the extended series between Idra and MC on Testbug, you'll see that blink stalkers actually did just fine against hydras. MC got colossi at first, and Idra responded by making just the right number of corruptors to kill them off. It didn't matter, though.
I don't think nydus is an easy option to take, because most good protoss players spread out the pylons, and just 1-2 warp ins of zealots can kill of the nydus. It's a huge investment for the zerg player to get nydus and if it fails, we come out pretty behind. If you watch the game, Losira doesn't put his first nydus IN the opponent's base. It's on Tal'Darim altar, and he nyduses near where the 3rd (with the rocks) first, pokes the front while killing the forge and some cannons and at the same time nyduses within the base. MC can see the nydus but can't really do much about it, and then Losira pulls back into the first worm and pops out the second. Nydus doesn't have to be IN the base, but it, like the Warp Gate, allows you to reinforce extremely quickly. Blink stalkers do "just fine" against practically everything, but in that case it was a somewhat even number of stalkers (even slightly more) vs hydras. In theory, more hydras + some lings would still decimate that composition. Idra didn't need to ragequit that game... so silly.
Hydralisk costs more than blink stalkers and is a tier 2 unit, but somehow there should be more hydralisks to beat stalkers? This doesn't make much sense to me.
I didn't watch that specific game of Losira vs MC, but fact still remains that it's costly for the zerg player to attempt nydus worm play. It's just really situational and when it's blocked the damage done is nowhere near the same as losing a proxy pylon
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On June 08 2011 03:53 jhk0219 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 03:49 TheSambassador wrote:On June 07 2011 23:03 jhk0219 wrote:
~1k master zerg here.
This is what I thought too, as hydras are supposed to counter warp gate units.... If you watched the 6th and final game of the extended series between Idra and MC on Testbug, you'll see that blink stalkers actually did just fine against hydras. MC got colossi at first, and Idra responded by making just the right number of corruptors to kill them off. It didn't matter, though.
I don't think nydus is an easy option to take, because most good protoss players spread out the pylons, and just 1-2 warp ins of zealots can kill of the nydus. It's a huge investment for the zerg player to get nydus and if it fails, we come out pretty behind. If you watch the game, Losira doesn't put his first nydus IN the opponent's base. It's on Tal'Darim altar, and he nyduses near where the 3rd (with the rocks) first, pokes the front while killing the forge and some cannons and at the same time nyduses within the base. MC can see the nydus but can't really do much about it, and then Losira pulls back into the first worm and pops out the second. Nydus doesn't have to be IN the base, but it, like the Warp Gate, allows you to reinforce extremely quickly. Blink stalkers do "just fine" against practically everything, but in that case it was a somewhat even number of stalkers (even slightly more) vs hydras. In theory, more hydras + some lings would still decimate that composition. Idra didn't need to ragequit that game... so silly. Hydralisk costs more than blink stalkers and is a tier 2 unit, but somehow there should be more hydralisks to beat stalkers? This doesn't make much sense to me. I didn't watch that specific game of Losira vs MC, but fact still remains that it's costly for the zerg player to attempt nydus worm play. It's just really situational and when it's blocked the damage done is nowhere near the same as losing a proxy pylon
Hydralisks don't cost more than blink stalkers, which are also T2.
On June 08 2011 03:44 Scrubington wrote:
If anything else this was well written, and personally helped me to realize that I've been executing this build poorly.
Thanks for the post.
Thanks, I appreciate
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On June 08 2011 03:57 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 03:53 jhk0219 wrote:On June 08 2011 03:49 TheSambassador wrote:On June 07 2011 23:03 jhk0219 wrote:
~1k master zerg here.
This is what I thought too, as hydras are supposed to counter warp gate units.... If you watched the 6th and final game of the extended series between Idra and MC on Testbug, you'll see that blink stalkers actually did just fine against hydras. MC got colossi at first, and Idra responded by making just the right number of corruptors to kill them off. It didn't matter, though.
I don't think nydus is an easy option to take, because most good protoss players spread out the pylons, and just 1-2 warp ins of zealots can kill of the nydus. It's a huge investment for the zerg player to get nydus and if it fails, we come out pretty behind. If you watch the game, Losira doesn't put his first nydus IN the opponent's base. It's on Tal'Darim altar, and he nyduses near where the 3rd (with the rocks) first, pokes the front while killing the forge and some cannons and at the same time nyduses within the base. MC can see the nydus but can't really do much about it, and then Losira pulls back into the first worm and pops out the second. Nydus doesn't have to be IN the base, but it, like the Warp Gate, allows you to reinforce extremely quickly. Blink stalkers do "just fine" against practically everything, but in that case it was a somewhat even number of stalkers (even slightly more) vs hydras. In theory, more hydras + some lings would still decimate that composition. Idra didn't need to ragequit that game... so silly. Hydralisk costs more than blink stalkers and is a tier 2 unit, but somehow there should be more hydralisks to beat stalkers? This doesn't make much sense to me. I didn't watch that specific game of Losira vs MC, but fact still remains that it's costly for the zerg player to attempt nydus worm play. It's just really situational and when it's blocked the damage done is nowhere near the same as losing a proxy pylon Hydralisks don't cost more than blink stalkers, which are also T2.
Lol exactly. Blink requires a twilight council and stalkers are 125/50 to the 100/50 of hydras. Plus there's a reason no one goes pure hydra in ZvZ for example, because they're glass cannons. Sure they do a lot of DPS but without anything to tank for them they just die quickly before they are able to sufficiently cut into rows of blink stalkers.
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On June 08 2011 03:59 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 03:57 Geiko wrote:On June 08 2011 03:53 jhk0219 wrote:On June 08 2011 03:49 TheSambassador wrote:On June 07 2011 23:03 jhk0219 wrote:
~1k master zerg here.
This is what I thought too, as hydras are supposed to counter warp gate units.... If you watched the 6th and final game of the extended series between Idra and MC on Testbug, you'll see that blink stalkers actually did just fine against hydras. MC got colossi at first, and Idra responded by making just the right number of corruptors to kill them off. It didn't matter, though.
I don't think nydus is an easy option to take, because most good protoss players spread out the pylons, and just 1-2 warp ins of zealots can kill of the nydus. It's a huge investment for the zerg player to get nydus and if it fails, we come out pretty behind. If you watch the game, Losira doesn't put his first nydus IN the opponent's base. It's on Tal'Darim altar, and he nyduses near where the 3rd (with the rocks) first, pokes the front while killing the forge and some cannons and at the same time nyduses within the base. MC can see the nydus but can't really do much about it, and then Losira pulls back into the first worm and pops out the second. Nydus doesn't have to be IN the base, but it, like the Warp Gate, allows you to reinforce extremely quickly. Blink stalkers do "just fine" against practically everything, but in that case it was a somewhat even number of stalkers (even slightly more) vs hydras. In theory, more hydras + some lings would still decimate that composition. Idra didn't need to ragequit that game... so silly. Hydralisk costs more than blink stalkers and is a tier 2 unit, but somehow there should be more hydralisks to beat stalkers? This doesn't make much sense to me. I didn't watch that specific game of Losira vs MC, but fact still remains that it's costly for the zerg player to attempt nydus worm play. It's just really situational and when it's blocked the damage done is nowhere near the same as losing a proxy pylon Hydralisks don't cost more than blink stalkers, which are also T2. Lol exactly. Blink requires a twilight council and stalkers are 125/50 to the 100/50 of hydras.
My mistake, hydras do not cost more than stalkers.
At any rate, hydras do require the hydralisk den and the upgrade :O. In the game of MC vs Idra, Idra's hydra force got slaughtered pretty badly, although they were on equal numbers, if not more hydras. It's quite hard to deal with if the protoss player micros decently, at least until tier 3.
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that was because he got eaten by the DTs not because the Stalkers were so good.
Stalker vs. Hydra is not a fight you want to go in as Toss at least not without an advantage.
Idra didn't even need to engage there...
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On June 08 2011 04:42 freetgy wrote:
that was because he got eaten by the DTs not because the Stalkers were so good.
Stalker vs. Hydra is not a fight you want to go in as Toss at least not without an advantage.
Idra didn't even need to engage there...
?????????? He didn't get eaten by DTs. At all. DT's were sent to Idra's 4th and 5th base to harass worker line, not decimate the hydras. No doubt that DT's did damage, but I actually think MC could have won even without the DT's because he won the stalker vs hydra fight so decisively.
DTs were in the game but they didn't actually contribute to the fight.
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I love using stargate in PvZ so much, phoenix are the best unit in the game :DD
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On June 07 2011 11:02 confusedcrib wrote:
It was the kind of thing that seemed like MC made it up on the fly after being busted so much after expanding. My biggest fear for the build is the Idra style Hydra creep highway and/or nydus play. It seems that would rape pure gateway + air openings. Depends on how fast MC can get colossus up afterwards.
Oh, and in my opinion, the three void ray follow up is really bad. One void ray + phoenix follow up is much better for shutting down the third, and having that man void rays doesn't help too much, using that extra money for fast colossus seems like a better use.
??? This is the exact build Ace and like every other protoss have been using since forever. MC definitely did not make it up on the fly.
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Ideally with the Stargate or double stargate, denying the opponent's 3rd base while ya keep killing their queens. Mass up protoss deathball on 2/3 bases and roll em. So really the phoenix/void ray stuff is too keep your opponent busy and hopeful wasting resources on Hydralisk while you tech to colossus.
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On June 07 2011 23:14 Binabik wrote:
The cool thing about this build is that it's autowin against 15Hatch and that it's autowin against pool first.
I used to play 16 Nexus, but I think this build is much safer!
what? rofl? what beats it then
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On June 08 2011 04:03 jhk0219 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 03:59 Heavenly wrote:On June 08 2011 03:57 Geiko wrote:On June 08 2011 03:53 jhk0219 wrote:On June 08 2011 03:49 TheSambassador wrote:On June 07 2011 23:03 jhk0219 wrote:
~1k master zerg here.
This is what I thought too, as hydras are supposed to counter warp gate units.... If you watched the 6th and final game of the extended series between Idra and MC on Testbug, you'll see that blink stalkers actually did just fine against hydras. MC got colossi at first, and Idra responded by making just the right number of corruptors to kill them off. It didn't matter, though.
I don't think nydus is an easy option to take, because most good protoss players spread out the pylons, and just 1-2 warp ins of zealots can kill of the nydus. It's a huge investment for the zerg player to get nydus and if it fails, we come out pretty behind. If you watch the game, Losira doesn't put his first nydus IN the opponent's base. It's on Tal'Darim altar, and he nyduses near where the 3rd (with the rocks) first, pokes the front while killing the forge and some cannons and at the same time nyduses within the base. MC can see the nydus but can't really do much about it, and then Losira pulls back into the first worm and pops out the second. Nydus doesn't have to be IN the base, but it, like the Warp Gate, allows you to reinforce extremely quickly. Blink stalkers do "just fine" against practically everything, but in that case it was a somewhat even number of stalkers (even slightly more) vs hydras. In theory, more hydras + some lings would still decimate that composition. Idra didn't need to ragequit that game... so silly. Hydralisk costs more than blink stalkers and is a tier 2 unit, but somehow there should be more hydralisks to beat stalkers? This doesn't make much sense to me. I didn't watch that specific game of Losira vs MC, but fact still remains that it's costly for the zerg player to attempt nydus worm play. It's just really situational and when it's blocked the damage done is nowhere near the same as losing a proxy pylon Hydralisks don't cost more than blink stalkers, which are also T2. Lol exactly. Blink requires a twilight council and stalkers are 125/50 to the 100/50 of hydras. My mistake, hydras do not cost more than stalkers. At any rate, hydras do require the hydralisk den and the upgrade :O. In the game of MC vs Idra, Idra's hydra force got slaughtered pretty badly, although they were on equal numbers, if not more hydras. It's quite hard to deal with if the protoss player micros decently, at least until tier 3.
Why do you insist on being wrong ? ^^
It was 57 stalkers vs 41 hydras. What is surprising about the stalkers winning this ?
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As a high diamond zerg I find that this is a very hard strategy to counter and that it is a very smart one. With a forge expand you always get your expo before the zerg which is bad for the zerg. Getting air fast versus zerg eliminates their overlord spotting and isolates them and prevents them from getting a fast third to counter you. They must get a quick lair to respond and with hydras which you will then respond with colusssus.
It is very abusable and I think the current zerg metagame doesn't have a counter for this at the moment.
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On June 08 2011 20:14 Olsson wrote:
As a high diamond zerg I find that this is a very hard strategy to counter and that it is a very smart one. With a forge expand you always get your expo before the zerg which is bad for the zerg. Getting air fast versus zerg eliminates their overlord spotting and isolates them and prevents them from getting a fast third to counter you. They must get a quick lair to respond and with hydras which you will then respond with colusssus.
It is very abusable and I think the current zerg metagame doesn't have a counter for this at the moment.
Go and watch idrA vs MC on test bug from mlg, that is the best and most economic way to handle it, just ignore the part where his army gets rolled at the end of the game...
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I'm kind of in two minds about this build. On one hand, it is a solid opening that keeps you reasonably safe against most roach/ling all-in variations; on the other hand, if the Zerg prepares for it with queens / a couple spores, you're basically screwed as teching to Colo & making enough gateway units is going to take you ages and the Zerg will take an uncontested third and possibly fourth, and be able to saturate them perfectly before you can apply any real pressure.
I think some variation of this build where you stick to gateway + void rays for a little longer and attempt to do some damage in response to mass queens + spores might work better than just turtling on 2 base and waiting for Colossus tech? Not too sure.
Also, wouldn't a fast robotics instead of the stargate perform just as well against roach/ling pressure - assuming you target fire the roaches properly? Feel like it'd give you a much stronger midgame against that very likely hydra transition from Zerg.
edit: as for 'stalkers beating hydra'... MC beat Idra's hydra in that particular game because he had quite a few more stalkers compared to Idra's hydra, and 2 dts 2-shotting hydras since before the fight even started is HUGE. Pure hydra vs pure stalker with even numbers would be extremelly close, I think stalkers could maaaaaybe win it with perfect blink micro but I'm not sure about that - also, blink stalker is basically the best 'solo' unit, hydras need roach / infestor to support them to really shine.
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On June 08 2011 05:44 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 11:02 confusedcrib wrote:
It was the kind of thing that seemed like MC made it up on the fly after being busted so much after expanding. My biggest fear for the build is the Idra style Hydra creep highway and/or nydus play. It seems that would rape pure gateway + air openings. Depends on how fast MC can get colossus up afterwards.
Oh, and in my opinion, the three void ray follow up is really bad. One void ray + phoenix follow up is much better for shutting down the third, and having that man void rays doesn't help too much, using that extra money for fast colossus seems like a better use. ??? This is the exact build Ace and like every other protoss have been using since forever. MC definitely did not make it up on the fly.
I think the point is that MC did that build not only on maps where he could block his expo but also on maps with open expo. I think it was something like 1 gate - expo - Stargate or 2 gate - expo - Stargate. And i know that Nexus into stargate on maps with open Expos was NOT a common build compared to 3 Gate expo. With 3 gate expo you have better chance to scout with hallu and prepare for any unit combinations. Recently (thanks to some Z... ) this became a really difficult build because of some deadly all in timings from Z and MC did some "new" stuff like 3 Zeal push or early Stargate. Incontrol had some ideas too like blocking the ramp with 2 cannons or blocking expo with pylon + cyber (nothing really new but you have to do something to delay Z ling roach timing).
I think Stargate builds die to well prepared macro Zergs and can only win with damn good Micro. On the other side you are very fragile with any other build concerning early all ins and you don't have any scouting information. So the coin flip principle continues.
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On June 08 2011 20:44 loklok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 05:44 PJA wrote:On June 07 2011 11:02 confusedcrib wrote:
It was the kind of thing that seemed like MC made it up on the fly after being busted so much after expanding. My biggest fear for the build is the Idra style Hydra creep highway and/or nydus play. It seems that would rape pure gateway + air openings. Depends on how fast MC can get colossus up afterwards.
Oh, and in my opinion, the three void ray follow up is really bad. One void ray + phoenix follow up is much better for shutting down the third, and having that man void rays doesn't help too much, using that extra money for fast colossus seems like a better use. ??? This is the exact build Ace and like every other protoss have been using since forever. MC definitely did not make it up on the fly. I think the point is that MC did that build not only on maps where he could block his expo but also on maps with open expo. I think it was something like 1 gate - expo - Stargate or 2 gate - expo - Stargate. And i know that Nexus into stargate on maps with open Expos was NOT a common build compared to 3 Gate expo. With 3 gate expo you have better chance to scout with hallu and prepare for any unit combinations. Recently (thanks to some Z... ) this became a really difficult build because of some deadly all in timings from Z and MC did some "new" stuff like 3 Zeal push or early Stargate. Incontrol had some ideas too like blocking the ramp with 2 cannons or blocking expo with pylon + cyber (nothing really new but you have to do something to delay Z ling roach timing). I think Stargate builds die to well prepared macro Zergs and can only win with damn good Micro. On the other side you are very fragile with any other build concerning early all ins and you don't have any scouting information. So the coin flip principle continues.
3Gate Stargate was a very common build, nowadays you can do 1gate/2gate Stargate because of the Sentry buildtime buff, you can chrono sentries out quickly and expand faster. White-ra does it a ton on his stream when hes playing somewhat standard, if you watch the 12 weeks with the Pros episode with Socke that happened a month or two ago, it is the build he suggests as well.
This isn't a new build, it has been around for ages, people are just getting better. It allows you to expand safely, deter Muta play and clear out all the Overlords around the map. It can kill super fast thirds as well. It is weak to those Hydra/Ling all-ins but you should be able to see that coming with the Phoenix and prepare. You don't exactly need great micro, it isn't difficult killing Queens and slow overlords with Phoenix/Voidray :S You just don't want to over extend and lose the Voidray
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skipping gateway upgrade and sentries makes voidrays come out incredibly fast... but when do i take the 3rd gas and the sentries?
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Loved and will love it more.
Def give props to MC for doing well in MLG :D
and yea i think Ace was using this build before MC, just that MC happneed to use it more often in PvZ.
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Russian Federation13 Posts
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EPT
