EPT[D] PvZ oGsMC's FFE into Void Rays - Page 2
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theMarkovian
Netherlands183 Posts
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
On June 07 2011 13:33 Oreo7 wrote: I have no idea how MC pulls this off, everytime I open star and zerg isn't roach linging me I'm behind. I feel like it's better to play a ground protoss army, whether that means extra cannons or dts. If he isn't roach/linging you then just get robo facility and bay before extra gateways. | ||
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b_unnies
3579 Posts
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ScythedBlade
308 Posts
On June 07 2011 15:46 b_unnies wrote: Double Nexus build into stargate play has been the top 3 most common PvZ builds for months now. Most players uses double stargate(which is usually built at or around 6:30) pumping phoenix for map control, scouting, and harassing. Usually players only uses 1 void ray since void ray doesnt give the map control and scouting that phoenix does, nor does it give the harassing power that phoenix does. The void is only used to attempt to kill zerg's 3rd while they're still weak on anti-air defenses Void is also there for anti roach-zergling all-in cheese. Thats the MAIN reason you build a stargate WHENEVER you double expo. It's a full must. However, after that, you must be wary of nydus AND drops. To counter this, if you don't see a zerg third, don't even bother going for robo tech or even build more voids or phoenixes. Cut probes, build gateways, start going crazy on gateway units with chronoboost. Put forcefields under overlords so they can't drop as fast and defend it. If you defend it, feel free to take a third and aggravate the zerg a little, and then build up to a higher lead. | ||
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b_unnies
3579 Posts
On June 07 2011 16:07 ScythedBlade wrote: Void is also there for anti roach-zergling all-in cheese. Thats the MAIN reason you build a stargate WHENEVER you double expo. It's a full must. However, after that, you must be wary of nydus AND drops. To counter this, if you don't see a zerg third, don't even bother going for robo tech or even build more voids or phoenixes. Cut probes, build gateways, start going crazy on gateway units with chronoboost. Put forcefields under overlords so they can't drop as fast and defend it. If you defend it, feel free to take a third and aggravate the zerg a little, and then build up to a higher lead. your wall is the main reason that stops a roach/ling attack, all void does is supplement your defense. and no, the main reason for building stargate is contain zerg and hold off their economy | ||
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Shooks
Australia256 Posts
So yeah, honestly I don't like the build and I don't use it often unless I smell a cheese. On June 07 2011 16:47 b_unnies wrote: your wall is the main reason that stops a roach/ling attack, all void does is supplement your defense. and no, the main reason for building stargate is contain zerg and hold off their economy Not really, you can't hold off any sort of roach aggression with cannons unless you have like 5, how does VRs/Phoenix 'contain' a zerg :/. Zerg don't need to move out or anything, they will happily drone up. | ||
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pippo_jedi
Italy15 Posts
On June 07 2011 13:57 tsukiumi wrote: @Oreo7 i wanna say it was the metalopolis match against Idra (second series where he 4-0d him) or losira but im not 100%, that even though he did do a roach ling rush, the void rays still got defended against, and MC demonstrated a nice transition after about 3 voids and 4-5 phoenixs, he expanded to a 3rd and started making collosi and blink stalkers. that Being said, losira Vs MC(when MC was eliminated) showed exactly how to counter and effectively win this particular wall off. *Spoiler-As soon as losira spotted the void rays he threw a few spore crawlers down and a hydra den. as soon as the den finished he threw down a nydus network. after he repelled the VR/Phoenix harass he used his zergling and overlords to spot 3 different nydus worms, brought in mass hydras and queens to drop creep tumors, and basically poked from all sides til he over ran MC. thats just my 2 cents on it, if any of you want i have the replays saved so i can link them for you to watch. If you rewatch the game vs Losira you'll see that Losira starts the Hydra Den before spotting the VR (I looked twice, it's that or I missed something) Either "he knows" based on general scout info or it was already his plan upon seeing a FE. see FE -> no fast colossi -> his plan is hitting at 9.50 with nydus and 11 Hydras and force MC to delay colossi. | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
Still, well written. | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
This is flat out wrong. The thing Losira is known for is a semiallin with ~30-35 drones against a 3 gate sentry expansion, the roach ling allin that people use against a forge FE stops at 14/15 drones and comes much earlier. it also often cancels the hatchery. also note that against moon on TDA MC sent out another probe at a perfect timing, which made moon delay his roach ling push slighty (~10s) because he had to hide the roaches from the probe seeing it too quickly, had he not done this, it would have been a good bunch harder to defend against the push. other than that, pretty good writeup | ||
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crabz
227 Posts
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
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Geiko
France2044 Posts
On June 07 2011 17:44 DarKFoRcE wrote: "(in particular the famous Losira 2base roach/ling push)" This is flat out wrong. The thing Losira is known for is a semiallin with ~30-35 drones against a 3 gate sentry expansion, the roach ling allin that people use against a forge FE stops at 14/15 drones and comes much earlier. it also often cancels the hatchery. also note that against moon on TDA MC sent out another probe at a perfect timing, which made moon delay his roach ling push slighty (~10s) because he had to hide the roaches from the probe seeing it too quickly, had he not done this, it would have been a good bunch harder to defend against the push. other than that, pretty good writeup Fixed that thank you ^^ To the people saying that this isn't anything new, I'm aware that the strat in itself isn't new, what I wanted to show is MC's take on this. It looks like he's been giving this build quite some thought and this particular BO looks very safe. I've searched through TL for a good FFE opening because I've always wanted to try that style but there isn't a single thread about it, people just usually tell you to get a forge, a nexus and some cannons and then tech up to what you want and that isn't really helpful. | ||
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WrathOfAiur
Germany243 Posts
On June 07 2011 11:03 Aquafresh wrote: It is interesting that he cuts probes for so long in order to get his infrastructure up and counts on Chronoboost to make up the difference. It has been awhile since I've actually played an SC2 game, is this something common among professional protoss builds? Chronoboost is such an unexplored mechanic. It seems like a godsend to the players who love to really tinker with optimal build orders. this is common for forge FE builds. Not entirely because you want the infrastructure, but because you want the wall-off. So 1 canon is enough to fend off lings and the zerg has to do that roach all-in if he wants to do any damage. and because a zerg can't really hatch first vs forge first (canon rush) you will have a good economy compared to the zerg. if you metagame your opponent and you go for nexus first vs pool first, you are actually ahead and the zerg can't punish you excpet with that hatch-cancel roach all-in. | ||
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Welmu
Finland3295 Posts
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sirzachattack
United Kingdom63 Posts
9 Pylon - CB Nexus 13 Forge 18 Nexus 18 Gateway 18 Canon 18 Assimilator 18 Pylon 18 Assimilator 19 Cybercore 27 Canon 28 Stargate This is the buildorder. | ||
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jhk0219
United States189 Posts
On June 07 2011 11:02 confusedcrib wrote: It was the kind of thing that seemed like MC made it up on the fly after being busted so much after expanding. My biggest fear for the build is the Idra style Hydra creep highway and/or nydus play. It seems that would rape pure gateway + air openings. Depends on how fast MC can get colossus up afterwards. Oh, and in my opinion, the three void ray follow up is really bad. One void ray + phoenix follow up is much better for shutting down the third, and having that man void rays doesn't help too much, using that extra money for fast colossus seems like a better use. ~1k master zerg here. This is what I thought too, as hydras are supposed to counter warp gate units.... If you watched the 6th and final game of the extended series between Idra and MC on Testbug, you'll see that blink stalkers actually did just fine against hydras. MC got colossi at first, and Idra responded by making just the right number of corruptors to kill them off. It didn't matter, though. I don't think nydus is an easy option to take, because most good protoss players spread out the pylons, and just 1-2 warp ins of zealots can kill of the nydus. It's a huge investment for the zerg player to get nydus and if it fails, we come out pretty behind. | ||
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Binabik
Germany686 Posts
I used to play 16 Nexus, but I think this build is much safer! | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
1.forge expand 2.quick tech to stargate with the standard 1 void ray + x phoenix's 2b.send a probe out while your stargate is building, if you smell roach/ling push add 2nd and 3rd cannon. 3.rally void ray to their third base 4.even if you do 0 damage instantly tech to colossus and blink with minimal units pray they dont attack you for the next 2 minutes (see idra mc g2 on meta, even with perfect control idra did massive damage due to the "tech to everything approach") 5. when lance is done start third base 6. turtle till max 7. omnomnom im only making this post because i feel that mc isnt doing anything 'special' in the pvz match up, stargate early was already popular. and like tyler has pointed out before, he takes risks. when not a single person at mlg has noticed his tech to everything style even after doing 0 damage its easy to see why he is so successful  | ||
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WwVudu
United States28 Posts
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jhk0219
United States189 Posts
On June 07 2011 23:14 Binabik wrote: The cool thing about this build is that it's autowin against 15Hatch and that it's autowin against pool first. I used to play 16 Nexus, but I think this build is much safer! I don't see how it's autowin against either of those openings. You might as well say this build just beats zerg 100%? This build doesnt guarantee you a win in any way shape or form | ||
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