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On February 26 2011 12:35 Keifru wrote:
Some numbers
36 damage to Light
46.8 damage to Armored
Marauder: 125 health - 3 consistant fungals
Roach: 145 health - 4 consistant fungals
Stalker: 160 health - 5 consistant fungals
I think you forgot the part where Medivacs no longer heals the marinemaruader army allowing zerglings to have a fighting chance at killing them after a surround.
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On March 02 2011 03:36 Rakanishu2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 02:06 morimacil wrote:
Simply having twice the amount of infestors to do the same thing that was done by a single one previously isnt always an option.
Please use some common sense. You're not doing the same amount, you're doing twice as much damage, +30% more to armored. We can do this all day, my point stands.
You're doing exactly the same damage for the same energy. +30% to armored. We can't do this all day and your point doesn't stand. Please use common sense.
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On March 02 2011 03:40 Bellygareth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 03:36 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 02 2011 02:06 morimacil wrote:
Simply having twice the amount of infestors to do the same thing that was done by a single one previously isnt always an option.
Please use some common sense. You're not doing the same amount, you're doing twice as much damage, +30% more to armored. We can do this all day, my point stands. You're doing exactly the same damage for the same energy. +30% to armored. We can't do this all day and your point doesn't stand. Please use common sense.
Maybe you should've looked at what he quoted before you posted...
1 Infestor today does 36dmg over 8 seconds and holds the units in place
2 Infestors tomorrow does 66 dmg over 8 seconds and holds the units in place
That is twice the amount of damage + 30%.
No one was talking about energy/resource/whatever, but time and what is done.
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This will be considered a buff when people top being terrible at this game and learn to time their spells
instead of this mentality
"OMG I HAVE NO SENSE OF TIMING BUT IF ITS NOT INSTANT HIT I CANT HIT SHIT OMFG THIS IS SUCH A HUGE NERF HURRRR"
Seriously, double the DPS for a skill shot now
its a buff once people learn how to time
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I predict we'll see a lot of flanking attacks from zerg, muta/roach/bane/speedling/infestor, maybe w/o banelings... And using infestors as templars for the damage.
I'm going to use it if the fungal patch gets through.
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You guys will never be agree. 
The fact is it's a change, and you can see it as a nerf nor a buff.
I, as an infestor user in ZvT, don't know what to think about that change. I am a bit sceptical cause i love how fungal works actually and it could be harder to face blue flamme for exemple. But i won't throw it away before i tested it seriously, cause it can also be very nice and deadly, and if that make infestor more playable in ZvP, well, i'm happy too cause it's the best caster in the game.
Don't scream when changes happen ( eventually ), you'll look exactly like all those teenage nerds on Bliz forums.
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Now that's it's a missile, does that mean Mutas will become more viable in ZvZ? Now the Mutalisks will be able to dodge the fungal easier so not all of them immediately die to one or two infestors. That seemed kind of OP imo, that you can instantly lose all your Mutas like that. Obviously infestors will still be good against Mutas though.
This might make ZvZ even more interesting.
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1 Infestor today does 36dmg over 8 seconds and holds the units in place
2 Infestors tomorrow does 66 dmg over 8 seconds and holds the units in place
That is twice the amount of damage + 30%.
Well no one is contesting the fact that 2 infestors do twice the amount of damage compared to a single infestor (assuming their fungals actually hit)
2 siege tanks also do more damage than 1 siege tank, and 2 marines also do twice the damage.
In fact, they also do twcie the dps.
But you still need twice as many infestors for that, which you cant really afford.
And if you face for example an incoming drop, then you need twice the amount of infestors, but end up doing exactly the same thing as before (killing a loaded medivac)
I still fail to see any situation where having 1 infestor after the patch, is superior to having 1 infestor now. I can see tons of situations though where having 1 infestor now is better than having 1 infestor post patch, such as when dealing with a drop, when getting a better concave or surround, when catching marines to hit them with banelings, when holding phoenixes or mutas or whatever till the hydras arrive, and so on.
There are a lot of situations where having 2 infestors after the patch is better than having 1 infestor now (as long as the fungals arent dodged). But really, those situations matter little, since they fail to take into account that infestors still cost the same as before.
If infestors suddenly spawned in pairs for the same cost, like zerglings, then the comparison between 1 infestor now, and 2 infestors post patch would actually make a lot of sense.
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There are a lot of situations where having 2 infestors after the patch is better than having 1 infestor now (as long as the fungals arent dodged). But really, those situations matter little, since they fail to take into account that infestors still cost the same as before.
If infestors suddenly spawned in pairs for the same cost, like zerglings, then the comparison between 1 infestor now, and 2 infestors post patch would actually make a lot of sense.
What? They're saying 2 infestors now is better than 2 infestors before because they do damage faster, and in RTS, time matters. Killing a batch of marines in 8 seconds vs 16 seconds is significant. So if you have multiple infestors, this is a buff.
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On March 02 2011 03:40 Bellygareth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 03:36 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 02 2011 02:06 morimacil wrote:
Simply having twice the amount of infestors to do the same thing that was done by a single one previously isnt always an option.
Please use some common sense. You're not doing the same amount, you're doing twice as much damage, +30% more to armored. We can do this all day, my point stands. You're doing exactly the same damage for the same energy. +30% to armored. We can't do this all day and your point doesn't stand. Please use common sense.
Infestor play is going to increase, argument over. You lost.
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
it is really really hard to lend an FG!
This is a huge nerf to lategame T3 Zerg. when you need FG to "successfully" lock down units so brood/Ultra can deal dmg...
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Can people saying this is a nerf please show replays of them losing while using FG (or games of them winning against players using FG)?
Can people saying this is a buff please show replays of them winning while using FG (or games of them losing against players using FG)?
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On March 02 2011 05:16 Archerofaiur wrote:
Can people saying this is a nerf please show replays of them losing while using FG (or games of them winning against players using FG)?
Hop on PTR. Play infestor / ling with upgrades. Try to stop helions or drops, or any sort of air harass with infestor / queen. Try the same on live. Realize it's harder to open infestor after lair, and that the unit is now a great support unit, but not a unit you can build an army comp around. It just forces ZvT into muta's even harder than it is now, although infestors are a better late addition.
I just don't understand why zerg need a spell that can miss that easily.
It doesn't add anything to ZvZ either. Now it's just more important to scout for a spire, and if they make one, just timing attack with roaches and win. Adding variety to midgame ZvZ is good, but adding mutas while taking away the ability for someone who doesn't go muta just goes back to scouting to avoid rock paper scissors.
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On March 02 2011 05:38 Kavtor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:16 Archerofaiur wrote:
Can people saying this is a nerf please show replays of them losing while using FG (or games of them winning against players using FG)? Hop on PTR.
Would but im studying for finals And also if you post a replay it will 100% make what you just said have more weight. Rather than just another +nerf post.
Im trying to help you make your argument better 
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On March 02 2011 04:41 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +There are a lot of situations where having 2 infestors after the patch is better than having 1 infestor now (as long as the fungals arent dodged). But really, those situations matter little, since they fail to take into account that infestors still cost the same as before.
If infestors suddenly spawned in pairs for the same cost, like zerglings, then the comparison between 1 infestor now, and 2 infestors post patch would actually make a lot of sense. What? They're saying 2 infestors now is better than 2 infestors before because they do damage faster, and in RTS, time matters. Killing a batch of marines in 8 seconds vs 16 seconds is significant. So if you have multiple infestors, this is a buff.
That's the thing though. Time does NOT matter with the old version of the spell when you are using it for the damage, because the units can't move to fight you. They are completely helpless and will deal 0 damage during the spell duration unless you choose to engage (or you're hitting something with over 9 range). Now, if you're already engaging, there's some benefit, but the benefit of disabling his ability to move away from banelings or kite your units is almost certainly better.
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On March 02 2011 04:38 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +1 Infestor today does 36dmg over 8 seconds and holds the units in place
2 Infestors tomorrow does 66 dmg over 8 seconds and holds the units in place
That is twice the amount of damage + 30%. Well no one is contesting the fact that 2 infestors do twice the amount of damage compared to a single infestor (assuming their fungals actually hit) 2 siege tanks also do more damage than 1 siege tank, and 2 marines also do twice the damage. In fact, they also do twcie the dps. But you still need twice as many infestors for that, which you cant really afford.
And if you face for example an incoming drop, then you need twice the amount of infestors, but end up doing exactly the same thing as before (killing a loaded medivac)I still fail to see any situation where having 1 infestor after the patch, is superior to having 1 infestor now. I can see tons of situations though where having 1 infestor now is better than having 1 infestor post patch, such as when dealing with a drop, when getting a better concave or surround, when catching marines to hit them with banelings, when holding phoenixes or mutas or whatever till the hydras arrive, and so on.
There are a lot of situations where having 2 infestors after the patch is better than having 1 infestor now (as long as the fungals arent dodged). But really, those situations matter little, since they fail to take into account that infestors still cost the same as before. If infestors suddenly spawned in pairs for the same cost, like zerglings, then the comparison between 1 infestor now, and 2 infestors post patch would actually make a lot of sense.
Your siege tank/marine analogy is just false... Ofc you do more DPS with two units compared to one. The difference with current fungal vs new fungal is that their DPS is NOT the same.
Let me break it down for you with your own example;
1 tank does 15 DPS (random number). We add a second tank and they do 30 DPS together. That's twice as much dps adding 1 more unit. Logic acomplished.
1 current Fungal does 4.5 DPS.
1 PTR Fungal does 9 DPS (atleast) 12~ DPS (at most).
That's twice+ as much DPS adding no units. Logic acomplished. DPS is buffed.
So what does this mean? If we get more infestors and use more Fungals we do more damage with them over a shorter period of time. Yay!
1 Infestor with PTR Fungal does Twice the DPS of 1 Infestor with current Fungal
You loose utility and gain DPS, yet you can maintain utility if you increase your infestor numbers, and why wouldnt you since they do more dps to begin with? And maybe you should find, if not other, then More means to deal with the issues you dealt with with the current Fungal utility.
You can't see situations where 1 infestor would be better with PTR fungal, but maybe you could with 4 more infestors in a big battle?
I've been saying this all the time, but you don't seem to grasp it. If you insist on using the infestor the way you use it today, then sure the lost utility will be viewed as a nerf, but if you look at the new options that it provides you it should be viewed as a buff instead. Can't you see the possibilities?
"But how should I deal with X now?!" Why not mix in both fungals and maybe something else? Map awareness and more speedlings (since you probably devote more gas to infestor than baneling you will have more lings around to stop drops and other harasment with. 4 seconds is a long time for the the fastest units on creep to catch up if you're prepared, and if you're not and missed it on your minimap you shouldnt have a free 8 seconds to catch up to it anyways imho.
I also think that making it a skillshot is good for balance design in general. Instant fungal is imho abit too strong vs air. It almost nullifies air harass completely and you can't do anything on the opposite side of the fungal to avoid it other than praying. It's not like you can split your marines perfectly when banelings roll in or run out of storm and take half the damage and things that make the game dynamic. But that's just a design opinion of mine - I think this change is pretty well thought through and I hope people can make good use of it.
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On March 02 2011 07:00 RoKetha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:41 DoubleReed wrote:There are a lot of situations where having 2 infestors after the patch is better than having 1 infestor now (as long as the fungals arent dodged). But really, those situations matter little, since they fail to take into account that infestors still cost the same as before.
If infestors suddenly spawned in pairs for the same cost, like zerglings, then the comparison between 1 infestor now, and 2 infestors post patch would actually make a lot of sense. What? They're saying 2 infestors now is better than 2 infestors before because they do damage faster, and in RTS, time matters. Killing a batch of marines in 8 seconds vs 16 seconds is significant. So if you have multiple infestors, this is a buff. That's the thing though. Time does NOT matter with the old version of the spell when you are using it for the damage, because the units can't move to fight you. They are completely helpless and will deal 0 damage during the spell duration unless you choose to engage (or you're hitting something with over 9 range). Now, if you're already engaging, there's some benefit, but the benefit of disabling his ability to move away from banelings or kite your units is almost certainly better.
You say that as if the movement immobilization does not happen. 4 seconds is still alot of time in a battle where banelings do its work.
One thing to consider is that banelings die. Always. What if your 20 banes were lings and half survived but you still made the same damage because you had stronger fungals? This would open up the possibility for faster counter attacks for example.
Time ALWAYS matter in a RTS one way or the other. When it comes to engaging armies and kill eachother, more DPS will help. When it comes to delaying a push, more time on the immobilization will help.
So how would you use the New fungal?
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It seems like infestors are having an identity crisis again with this patch. The purpose of fungal growth was for support: holding enemy units in place for baneling/ultra aoe or flanking/surrounding. Positioning was always critical for zerg, and this is what infestors were for.
The duration and armor bonus changes feels like they're going to become offensive spellcasters rather than utility.
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You loose utility and gain DPS, yet you can maintain utility if you increase your infestor numbers, and why wouldnt you since they do more dps to begin with?
You can't see situations where 1 infestor would be better with PTR fungal, but maybe you could with 4 more infestors in a big battle?
So what does this mean? If we get more infestors and use more Fungals we do more damage with them over a shorter period of time. Yay!
This is all nice, but it still all relies on somehow magically having more infestors.
I know that having extra units is good.
2 units > 1 unit.
10 infestors > 1 infestor.
Infestors are still not free.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 02 2011 09:34 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +You loose utility and gain DPS, yet you can maintain utility if you increase your infestor numbers, and why wouldnt you since they do more dps to begin with? Show nested quote +You can't see situations where 1 infestor would be better with PTR fungal, but maybe you could with 4 more infestors in a big battle? Show nested quote +So what does this mean? If we get more infestors and use more Fungals we do more damage with them over a shorter period of time. Yay! This is all nice, but it still all relies on somehow magically having more infestors. I know that having extra units is good. 2 units > 1 unit. 10 infestors > 1 infestor. Infestors are still not free.
So, basically, infestors are a lot better in larger numbers now than they were before, but worse alone or in pairs.
And it's not that 10 infestors > 1 infestor. It's that 10 infestors in the PTR are better than 10 infestors on live, but 1 infestor in the PTR is worse than 1 infestor on live. In other words, they scale better with numbers.
That's actually okay, infestors are a bit gas heavy, but zergling/infestor or roach/infestor is still a fairly gas lean combo, definitely easier on the gas than ling/baneling/muta.
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EPT
