1)You can actually time your fungal growths now, shoot and run mmm will run straight into it.
When it was instant cast your infestor had to be in range the instant it hit, which made it more vulnerable.
2) 36 damage in 4 seconds is a huge buff, u can actually place one fungal, and then another 2 seconds later and kill a bunch of marines
3) medivac can no longer outheal FG damage <---- HUGE
4) scv +rine + thor balls will die very quick to infestors, just 2 FG's and not only have you damaged the thor, but all the scvs are dead within 5-6 seconds
5) the faster damage by the infestor, means the less likely they are to use their stim (even with medivacs)
6) I tested fungal growth vs protoss and its actually quite nice. The damage is quick and you can spam FG all over their deathballs.
7) Health upgrade obviously helps the infestor in combat, but it also does something else.... its much easier for it to survive feedback now.
Conclusion: I tested this out, and I am happy with it. In fact, I think its a little OP, but its ok because zerg needs that little thing thats a little op. Just like terrans have rines and mules, toss has collo and void ray....
Couple of questions:
Do range or melee upgrades increase fungal growth damage?
If my lings are +1 armor, does the +30% armor damage apply? Or is it only to units that START armored without upgrades? <--- if this is the case this could be very deadly for terrans who get +1 armor upgrade, as it will make them more vulnerable
On February 26 2011 12:12 m00se wrote: YES I TESTED ALL THIS IN PTR!
2) 36 damage in 4 seconds is a huge buff, u can actually place one fungal, and then another 2 seconds later and kill a bunch of marines
This is something a lot of people are missing in the thread. The immense amount of DPS that happens so fast with the new FG is retarded. You burst through over half of a Marines health, even with Combat Shield, in 4 seconds. I'm taking this as a buff strictly. Especially the +30% armored.
Nice man, just awesome. I've recently been using Infestors again after trying out Mr. Bitters vs Terran build and I'd forgotten how awesome they could be.
If these changes make it through PTR that's awesome.
Only pity is the decrease from 8 seconds to 4 seconds for the stun. Was nice to be able to hold off a much larger army for 30 seconds until you could morph more units in...
WOW, some crazy ass changed, and I do agree this is a buff for FG (already one of the best spells in the game), although its not as good vr mutas/hellions/phoenix anymore as the lower mobility reduction which was the really good thing against those fast units.
I think infesters are now the counter to the protoss stalker/colsi doom ball. AND the marine/marauder/medivac doom ball AND the roach/hydra doom balls. This is a wonderful change to the match up, because now we will be seeing a lot more ghost/emp and HT/feedback play, making all the zerg match ups MUCH more intresting and micro intensive (no more doom balls a+moving to victory)!
Maybe even muta will become the counter to just infesters (no hydra)? As the lower stun time, means muta might be able to snipe out those infesters.
On February 26 2011 12:12 m00se wrote: If my lings are +1 armor, does the +30% armor damage apply? Or is it only to units that START armored without upgrades? <--- if this is the case this could be very deadly for terrans who get +1 armor upgrade, as it will make them more vulnerable
Armored is a classification, not a statement that a unit has armored. It means it'll do bonus damage to marauders, tanks, thors, etc... Any unit that has "Armored" as its armor type.
On February 26 2011 12:32 Pwnographics wrote: No more QQ Zergs.
This buff will play out waaay better in late-game. The fact that you can basically leave an infestor at each base burrowed, and then fungal growth a marine drop makes this buff great for zerg.
The infestor is now a damage spell caster rather than a support spell caster- 8 second duration helped you create a better flanking position and bring your slower units to bear. It also allowed ample time to roll your banelings into the bio-ball. Now, they can see you using the Fungal (since its now a projectile) and stim + run. You'll catch less units with it, and they can finish running away with minimal banelings connecting.
The bonus health is nice, but they are still a fairly big unit that is not partuclarly mobile and armored-with-no-armor. Once armies start getting pretty big, you can find your infestors trapped in the back of your army, or stuck in the back when pulling back.
All-in-all, I preferred it as a support caster rather than a combat caster, so I'm going to reserve judgement.
Some numbers
36 damage to Light 46.8 damage to Armored
Marauder: 125 health - 3 consistant fungals Roach: 145 health - 4 consistant fungals Stalker: 160 health - 5 consistant fungals
Edit:
On February 26 2011 12:12 m00se wrote:
Couple of questions:
Do range or melee upgrades increase fungal growth damage?
If my lings are +1 armor, does the +30% armor damage apply? Or is it only to units that START armored without upgrades? <--- if this is the case this could be very deadly for terrans who get +1 armor upgrade, as it will make them more vulnerable
Can Point Defence Drones kill FG?
PDD does nothign to FG Attack/Defense upgrades do nothing for fungal... Fungal ignores armor
On February 26 2011 12:41 obsid wrote: It actualy does 47 damage to armored fromy my tests (from the damage shown at least, maybe invisible fractions).
I was wondering if it rounded up or down, actually. That answers that, it seems.
Just out of curiosity how fast/slow is the FG projectile now? As in if it is as fast as a Maurader rocket, that's not too bad... But if it is as slow as a Raven HSM... Well, that's a different story...
On February 26 2011 12:26 Mattsville wrote: All I can say is: HOLY COW!
Nice man, just awesome. I've recently been using Infestors again after trying out Mr. Bitters vs Terran build and I'd forgotten how awesome they could be.
If these changes make it through PTR that's awesome.
Only pity is the decrease from 8 seconds to 4 seconds for the stun. Was nice to be able to hold off a much larger army for 30 seconds until you could morph more units in...
The projectile is fairly fast, I was able to easily hit groups without that much problem. I guess its possible though to avoid the FG if you stim and run around or something, but that is good! means more micro wars!
I would stay its slightly slower then a marauder shot.
On February 26 2011 12:49 Setev wrote: Doesn't that mean increased DPS for the fungal growth? Infestors will be total bitches now against mobility plays.
Personally I see it a liitle like:
Double the DPS (72 damage over 8 seconds now), but double the cast cost to get the 8 seconds (as it now takes 2 FG's to snare for 8 seconds).
I haven't seen the change yet, I may really hate it. But at least to me, on paper I like it.
Time will tell, though. It may not even make it through PTR. The 1.1 PTR I believe had a propsed change that FG couldn't snare air units...
On February 26 2011 12:52 obsid wrote: The projectile is fairly fast, I was able to easily hit groups without that much problem. I guess its possible though to avoid the FG if you stim and run around or something, but that is good! means more micro wars!
I would stay its slightly slower then a marauder shot.
Ahh cool Obsid, thanks for the info. Slightly slower than a Maurauder shot I can live with
The ecstatic cries of "STORRRMU" will soon be replaced with epic bouts of "FUNGURRU".
This change will dramatically change the strength of 200/200 zerg play. If the 30% stays, that means 46-47 damage against armored units. Vikings will die in 3 quick doses. Void rays will be much easier to handle, hitting for 1/5 each time. More importantly, huge battles will likely be decided by how much you can soften his forces with FG before hand.
Most obvious is that it'll find a welcome home at dealing with MMM. It'll likely be worth trying against Zealot/Stalker heavy builds, and maybe even mass roach. The latter is a tough one, if the player finds a safe spot to use roach regen.
On February 26 2011 13:11 bobucles wrote: The ecstatic cries of "STORRRMU" will soon be replaced with epic bouts of "FUNGURRU".
This change will dramatically change the strength of 200/200 zerg play. If the 30% stays, that means 46-47 damage against armored units. Vikings will die in 3 quick doses. Void rays will be much easier to handle, hitting for 1/5 each time. More importantly, huge battles will likely be decided by how much you can soften his forces with FG before hand.
Most obvious is that it'll find a welcome home at dealing with MMM. It'll likely be worth trying against Zealot/Stalker heavy builds, and maybe even mass roach. The latter is a tough one, if the player finds a safe spot to use roach regen.
Voidrays have 250 health. That's a lot of fungals to kill a void ray.
I forgot to math hammer the Viking; Infestor/Brolord/Ling does become stronger because you can now just fungal the vikings to death instead of using the same energy as fungal + ITs
Glad to see someone actually tried the change instead of just complaining in the PTR thread.
The essence for me is: As long as you can cast two consecutive FGs, you mow down marine groups as well as scv groups repairing thors. And even if you don't kill stuff, it's a huge amount of damage that was dealt. Big change, at least on paper. Gonna try it out tomorrow.
Voidrays have 250 health. That's a lot of fungals to kill a void ray.
It's not THAT bad. Obviously you wouldn't use pure FG to do the kill, but large VR fights tend to last longer than most battles. A good FG or two may make the difference between the VR's hitting max charge or not. Battles tend to shift after the VR's charge up, so cutting that out is a big deal.
The amount of cost effectiveness that this will potentially give the Ling/Infestor/Ultra build may potentially make this the ONE RIGHT ANSWER in TvZ. :-\
Well I (as T player) like that it will make drops more viable, since now due to time reduce Z will need more Infestors to lock to death medievacs and also 4 sec reduction = ~ 5 infested schoots so overall it seem like big buff to drops imho. And also I havent seen that "missile" yet but I gues you can now dogde it risght? All of that is only for good.
And buff against ground army. Well maybe we will start seeing some infestor first rather than muta builds. I like it.
Sounds like the end of marine based play if I ever heard it. I mean yes, tanks can still deal with them but simple spreading of the infestors should negate that now that it takes 3 tank shots to kill an infestor. Heck at this point I think if an infestor gets off just one fungal its cost efficent. Doesn't really bother me anyways, making casters used more is good :D. Since now we'll see more infestors which means more ghosts and templar in order to deal with them which in turn makes for more varied play.
This patch is really nice because it's inlcuding all the units that were dead. I am going to be using ghost now, probably nuke more, and really depend on hellion micro. Mech only looks inviting too. Still don't see any room for BC against zerg tho
Anyone tested the impact on Roach/infestor v roach/infestor?
Right now whoever gets the best fungal in the first engagement can potentially win right there, with the buff it's seems like it will make it even more crucial.
This is great. Zerg needed a buff At first, I thought it was some nerfs and some buffs. Less seconds actually increases the DPS, which will completely screw up stupid marine balls. Death balls will also be significantly weaker. This is actually really cool, and this means that the infestor/speedling strat vs T will be even MORE effective. Epic. Some guys say that the 8 seconds is better. It depends on the situation, but I'd think that killing marines is better than just stunning them and weakening them. Also, 4 seconds should be enough to position your army, and you will use more than one FG so thats more time. Thanks Blizzard Now just time to do some nerfing *cough cough collosi or voids* EDIT: And I even forgot about the HP buff that increases it's survivability and now since it's not instant you can keep ur infestors alive easier since you can shoot where they will go into, so ur infestors will never be in their range. Epic. Just epic. I never used to use infestors, now I will. Heaps. Mass infestor ftw
On February 26 2011 14:28 EssayReader wrote: Couldn't it be 35 damage in 5 seconds? I have a nitpicky thing with numbers. Also, it's longer to hold them still.
However, if Marines die this easily, does it not make the Baneling useless?
Baneling busts will still be effective, and will still be used early game against marines. Also, it will take several FG's to kill a protoss army, but with FG weakening them, and stunning them, banelings can be used very effectively. Also, infestor/ lings is a very cost effective army against a midgame terran, and with plenty of spare resources, you can make plenty of them and use them to kill any stunned and damaged/full HP leftover units and units that zerglings wont be able to beat alone (hellions). Also, if you are trying to get into their base(at midgame), just lings won't be enough to break their wall. Their effectiveness vs Terran may be reduced, but they can still be used effectively, especially against protoss.
On February 26 2011 14:35 valheru wrote: Hmmm I've been toying with the idea of switching from T to Z (silver) this is interesting. Maybe in TvZ this will mean no more or less fucking mutas.
Agreed. For a noob like me, microing mutas effectively all day and at the same time macroing is really hard. Will make my life a ton easier. It seemed before that in midgame it was just to hard to have an all ground army, and that harrasing was essential. But now, that will hopefully change. I find pure ground armies so much more fun and easier than ground and air. Wo0t
I think this was a good call, Z needed something badly vs Rine/Tank. I remember plague in BW and it was a nice balancing spell that gave the Z some good firepower. Spell casters always make the game more interesting and dynamic. I do have to say though, infestor/ling/bling/ultra could be ridiclous in TvZ now, extremely ridiclous.
Seeing as infestors cost more than HT and tanks, and the same as ghosts, this is a change I don't mind having. Now as a terran player I will actually be scared of infestors instead of annoyed of them.
Problem is in zvz, fungal was used mainly to lock down units such as mutas, and now they are stuck for a lot less time.
The ability to out DPS medivacs is really the biggest plus here.
Obviously its an ok change for ZvT, but ZvT wasn't the broken matchup to begin with. We still can't engage a Toss ball, and its still impossible to take a game off a competent Toss that makes it past 15 minutes.
On February 26 2011 15:17 MrBitter wrote: I still hesitate to call this a buff...
The ability to out DPS medivacs is really the biggest plus here.
Obviously its an ok change for ZvT, but ZvT wasn't the broken matchup to begin with. We still can't engage a Toss ball, and its still impossible to take a game off a competent Toss that makes it past 15 minutes.
Agreed I don't think they did enough to adress all of the issues present.
38 damage over 4 seconds, is... 9dps... That's the DPS of a spine crawler for 4 seconds.
What essentially happens when you fungal growth an army (non-armoured) is, every unit that is hit takes Spinecrawler DPS for four seconds on TOP of whatever else you have hitting them.
If something else is hitting them, (Probably hydralisks)... any marine hit by this is gaurenteed to die. If the marines decide to STIM, they are going to die so fast to this... you have -10hp from the stim, -15hp from a hydralisk shot, and -9hp from the first tick of fungal.. this is 35 damage done in the first second, 1 second later is 45 (regular marines die) 1 second later is 55 damage (shielded marines die). (This is not counting the hydralisk hits for the 2nd, 3rd and fouth ticks, but also discounts medivac healing.).
What kind of Spinecrawlers do you build that only deal 9 DPS?
When I first read the patchnotes, I was like "ZOMG THEY CUT THE FUNGAL TIME IN HALF WTF NOT COOL!"....But meh, after reading about basically double the DPS, it seems okay. I don't know if this is a buff or nerf and I don't play on the PTR, so...I guess the manner in which Infestors were played before will have to change.
The weird thing is that the new ladder maps seems like they emphasize a more harass-based style, which pre-1.3 Infestors would be useful. But this 1.3 change makes the Infestors more of a damage-dealing spellcaster, which means you'd want to keep them together with your army and use them all at once. So, the maps don't match the patch. At least for Zerg.
If they are going to buff infestors like this then Neural Parasite should cost 125 or more mana, and/or the mana upgrade should be removed. One or the other. I play zerg as well and vs terran this was an easy win.
I don't like the infestor change at all. Fungal Growth and Psionic Storm were already pretty similar spells, but at least you could argue that the primary use of fungal was to stun units while the primary usage of storm was to deal damage. Now they're reducing the stun time of fungal and upping its damage. The spells are converging on each other way too much for my liking.
I would much prefer neural parasite to be buffed than fungal growth. That spell doesn't overlap with anything else, and fungal growth was already plenty strong.
On February 26 2011 16:23 Techno wrote: I wonder if PDD stops the FG missle.
This would be such a good thing, seeing as this would add an additional layer to the raven.
That would actually be terrifying. The Raven is already sooo good. And if you're going Infestors instead of Mutalisks, how would you even stop serious Raven harass?
I'm really puzzled as to why Blizzard decided to buff fungal growth when it was already a great spell, INSTEAD of neural parasite (or infested terran), which was a terrible gimmicky spell that no one used. Still though, a buff is a buff. Looking forward to how it changes the matchups.
Is this going to change ZvZ in major favor of Roach/Infestor instead of Roach/Hydra? 94 aoe damage in the same time that it used to take to do 36 damage is pretty intense.
On February 26 2011 16:23 Techno wrote: I wonder if PDD stops the FG missle.
This would be such a good thing, seeing as this would add an additional layer to the raven.
That would actually be terrifying. The Raven is already sooo good. And if you're going Infestors instead of Mutalisks, how would you even stop serious Raven harass?
Sporecrawlers like a boss? Ravens still need to cast the PDD before it hits, its not like the existance of a raven will make it that the fungal growth will never reach its target again. Then again, why am I as zerg complaining about a terran unit that costs 150 gas to counter a zerg unit that costs 150 gas? It doesn't matter that for its cost the raven is about as useful as a ghost in ZvT.
Why would anyone get a raven in ZvT as it is right now? To PDD mutalisk shots or to use the HSM that I've heard the only unit that gets hit by it in a chase is a queen off of creep? Infact, Infested terrans can still shoot at ravens and the only time I even fear it is when I have burrowed banelings or when they are en-masse and dropping a million auto-turrets around my expansion.
I'm not saying buff the raven the unit sucks, all I'm saying is that it adds another layer of engagement for the terran and something to consider as zerg.
Infestor buff is really nice in improving Zerg's problem of having an inferior set of holes in their unit compositions compared to Protoss and Terran. This should really help Zerg survive pushes from mass bio, and perhaps Fungal will actually be viable against Protoss, especially since Fungal stuns Stalkers from doing Blink.
Decreasing stun time and changing Funal to a projectile attack seems to make it more skill based spell, which should greatly reward players who are able to take advantage of its buffs effectively. Fungal may be slightly more difficult to cast, but the buffs should make it a rewarding spell for all matchups, especially ZvP.
On February 26 2011 17:11 Tachion wrote: Is this going to change ZvZ in major favor of Roach/Infestor instead of Roach/Hydra? 94 aoe damage in the same time that it used to take to do 36 damage is pretty intense.
Bad form to quote myself but I just realized that mutalisks in ZvZ are going to be a pain in the ass to fungal :o Mutas in ZvZ were damn near useless because the instant cast + 8 sec stun allowed hydras to absolutely demolish them with no losses. I wonder if we'll see some gosu muta control evading fungals now.
I'm curious to see how this changes ZvZ. I'd usually spend my gas on upgrades and hydras if I'm closing 200/200, then get infestors if I get to 3 bases. Now it sounds to me like it might be worth sacrificing some gas to get fast infestors, since they'll probably rape roaches with the higher DPS and +armored bonus.
EDIT:
On February 26 2011 17:35 Tachion wrote: Bad form to quote myself but I just realized that mutalisks in ZvZ are going to be a pain in the ass to fungal :o Mutas in ZvZ were damn near useless because the instant cast + 8 sec stun allowed hydras to absolutely demolish them with no losses. I wonder if we'll see some gosu muta control evading fungals now.
Yeah, you're right. I have yet to see how fast the missile is, but it'll certainly take more skill to hit them now. Sounds like fun.
They addressed ZvT very well in my opinion. Stim research time and bunker build time both got increased and fungal got a buff - ZvT should be pretty balanced now. The only thing that will still be op is the SCV marine all-in, but the only thing that is able to balance this issue is bigger maps.
ZvP got up to no love in my opinion: The immortal HT BlinkStalker build wont be as viable as it used to be, but the vray colossi build is still gonna be a pain in the ass. Where's the corrutpor damage/range buff?
ZvZ might even be better now - mutas should now be very viable, since you can't just fungal twice in a row and kill everything with 6 hydras or something. I'm very happy with these changes.
The only thing disappointing is the corruptor thing, everything else is great.
On February 26 2011 17:52 decaf wrote: They addressed ZvT very well in my opinion. Stim research time and bunker build time both got increased and fungal got a buff - ZvT should be pretty balanced now. The only thing that will still be op is the SCV marine all-in, but the only thing that is able to balance this issue is bigger maps.
ZvP got up to no love in my opinion: The immortal HT BlinkStalker build wont be as viable as it used to be, but the vray colossi build is still gonna be a pain in the ass. Where's the corrutpor damage/range buff?
ZvZ might even be better now - mutas should now be very viable, since you can't just fungal twice in a row and kill everything with 6 hydras or something. I'm very happy with these changes.
The only thing disappointing is the corruptor thing, everything else is great.
Tottaly agree. It's kinda funny when people say the new FG will help against blink stalkers, when the real problem of this MU is the dreaded collossi-VR-Stalkers-Sentry balls. and nothing in the new patch helps against this composition.
The role of the infestor will be a bit different with this change. The projectile fungal will make it more difficult to catch fast harassing units - mutas, phoenixes, banshees, speedlings, banelings, hellions and maybe stimmed marines. If the opposing player micros well, they may be able to dodge most of the spell effect. This would likely result in more missed/wasted fungals (and I already miss the occasional fungal with the current instant cast.
However, once you do catch the fast moving unit, it takes much less time to chain fungal things to death. You can fungal, count to three, fungal again then burrow your infestor. This means much less attention will be needed, which is nice.
In terms of big battles, I think the fungal + baneling combo will be weakened, as the amount of time enemy units are rooted into place is less. However, I think the ling/infestor combo will be much stronger. I had previously learned to wait a bit after a fungal before charging my lings in, so that the damage can soak in. Now, I can charge in right away, giving my opponent less time to respond. As his units die a bit faster, my own units would die a bit slower, and overall this could tilt many battles the other way.
I just wish blizz would buff NP. It used to be a really cool/fun/interesting ability, now it's extremely situational. FG was fine the way it was before
Just tried this out on PTR and I honestly think there's no way this will go live. The DPS these things put out at range is absurd against bio and in addition to the rooting component and the extra health, I don't see this patch going live without infestors being a must-have unit in every ZvP.
Someone wrote that there is a hidden Broodlord cost increase of 400 gas total in the PTR thread. Is the Infestor and the other Zerg units unaffected of this?
seems pretty OP imo. Upgraded Slings + infestor tears through every terran ground army (except full mech) right now. This probably will be too much. And HT nerf is bad. Now toss will have to produce colossus every game. immortal + HT play was pretty good to play against, now we won't see it at all. i'm not sure about archon toilet tho. hope they think good before making the balance side of this patch go online. (nice bug fixes.)
On February 26 2011 15:17 MrBitter wrote: I still hesitate to call this a buff...
The ability to out DPS medivacs is really the biggest plus here.
Obviously its an ok change for ZvT, but ZvT wasn't the broken matchup to begin with. We still can't engage a Toss ball, and its still impossible to take a game off a competent Toss that makes it past 15 minutes.
I honestly think this has potential vs toss a well. The extra armor damage does great against clumped up toss balls, it really softens up stalkers. I agree that those issues haven't been addressed but the infestor buff is a nice one.
thank f*king god. I thought the 8-> 4 sec was a nerf but then i realised if the dmg wasn't changed then it just dealt the damage quicker. GREAT. about time we had something to reward us for holding off bunker rushes and scv all-ins in the first 10 minutes
I had a couple practice games playing Roach against Infestor/Ling and I really couldn't even move out without getting completely destroyed(Move out, Fungal, Lings kill your base). On Retail, not PTR even.
I was changing my ZvZ from Roach-heavy more into Infestor/Ling contain type even before the PTR patch and now when Fungals actually do damage against Roaches, I can see it working much better because now Fungals actually do something against Roaches.
If yes, then it's a very welcome change to the a-bit-dull ZvZ Roach vs. Roach mid-game.
uhm, TvZ is going to be pretty stupid now, you must have gazillion tanks always & then zerg can make a bunch of mutas and be everywhere while your tanks slowpoke their way across the map -.- I hope they'd buff HRM so there could be atleast one viable way to handle a huge flock of mutas. Leaving thors behind in every base with a bunch of turrets so you can move out seems pretty costly, they do take 6 pop each afterall. And even then when there's enough mutalisks 1-2 thors don't cut it anymore.
It just seems like a good zerg should be able to pin any terran in his base now with no chance of moving out. I'm talking about some sort of Infestor -> muta -> Broodlord play. But hopefully there is still some way, ghosts might be needed in every game but the gas cost of the army will skyrocket -.-
This is just a worst case scenario I think. If PDD can stop fungals, that would be nice but I dunno how viable that would really be. The army would be even slower and you'd have to somehow manage to surprise the zerg in a good spot not to waste the PDD.
I think this change makes sense. zvz missle fungal should make mutas viable while making the terran have to use ghosts in tvz. not sure how this will drastically change protoss but i already have a picture of it in my mind.
i have yet to try it out but i know where they are going with this. seems like they tried to take everything into account.
anyone else noticed the face that fungal growth does 9dps, while STORM DOES 10DPS? And with 30% extra damage vs armoured, IT NOT ONLY DOES MORE THAN STORM TO ARMOURED UNITS, BUT ALSO PREVENTS MOVEMENT AND BLINK? As a protoss player, i'd say the new patch is ridiculous.
as a terran all i can say is yay less stun time and yay dodgeable. Load in before the fungal hits and then load out again, harass can continue <3. Awesome balance change, makes harassing zerg finally a bit easier again, while it makes the infestor stronger in bigger fights. Now Mutas need to be slower then hellions and or reapers and I will be happy x3 (or that creep tumors won't be able to see air units x3 and only work like a ground sensor tower)
On February 26 2011 21:39 FeyFey wrote: as a terran all i can say is yay less stun time and yay dodgeable. Load in before the fungal hits and then load out again, harass can continue <3. Awesome balance change, makes harassing zerg finally a bit easier again, while it makes the infestor stronger in bigger fights. Now Mutas need to be slower then hellions and or reapers and I will be happy x3 (or that creep tumors won't be able to see air units x3 and only work like a ground sensor tower)
ehh.. dodge-able yes, if you have good reflexes and apm to watch your army, stim and retreat when the fungal is launched.
but loading units to dodge fungal? sounds terrible to me. your medivacs that just picked up your units will be rooted in place, and taking the increased fungal damage because medivacs are armoured, and unloading is way slower than you can load up.
Even as zerg player I think this change is little too much. 90% of ZvT I used infestors + mass lings, and it worked just fine... Now I think its gonna be too strong. But on the other hand, its gonna be much harder to hit air with infestors. F.e. medivacs, I was used to cast fungal on them + few infested terrans, with 8 second fungal duration it was working just fine (sometimes the second fungal was needed). Now to do this, you need at least 3-4 fungals, and with that, you don't even need infested terrans
Im looking forward to see if this change stays or no. Ive been toying with festors since MrBitters posted his no muta ZvT and this looks really promising, especially when T massed marauders and with their 125 hp it was annoying to wait for fungal to soften em a bit. Also missiles instead of instants may probably make festors a little easier to target running bioballs :D generally good work on this blizz.
Btw how you feel bout the extra 20 hp :D? maybe with armor ups you will be able to survive 2 tank shot :D?
And to somebody complaining bout detection and immobilize. Festors are extremely fragile and gas consuming thus arent the best detection around looking at their price tag. Also being a toss and complaining when having ff on sentries and cheap invisible detection... meh I cant see your point ;/
Not sure that the change is as good as ppl make it out to be. It seems more like a nerf than anything else to me. Obv the +dmg to armored is nice. But the time reduction? The reason fungal was used in the first place was to keep units in place, not because of the 36 damage it does.
Against air, you cant keep them in place and dps them down. They have a much bigger chance to dodge it with missiles, and even if you do hit, it does a bit of damage, and then they are gone again. Same thing pretty much with ground units.
Now, instead of using it to delay a push, or to keep units in place while you dps them, or to prevent kiting while blings arrive, and so on, all those uses seem to somewhat fall appart. The positive side, is that with a lot of infestors, you can use them as actual dps to kill stuff. But its then a much heavier gas investment.
So having 1-2 infestors just to help prevent kiting, and help your position is much much weaker. On the other hand, having 5-10 infestors is a lot stronger, since it can kill clumped up armies quite fast then. That means infestors are now closer to high templars than to sentries in terms of use, raw damage instead of positional advantage. But the investment is much much higher, since you now need to use them to kill stuff, instead of holding stuff in place.
An example: If you have some queens and infestors, and your opponent has a bunch of phoenix, previously, 2 fungals could hold the phoenix in place long enough for queens to kill them. But with the change, 2 fungals will still do the same damage, but the phoenix take less damage from the queens. So you need more fungals. Since the fungals also do damage, perhaps in 3 fungals, you can end up doing the same amount of damage as you previously did in 2. So it ends up costing 150 more gas.
Same thing with pretty much any other situation really. Instead of using a single fungal on marines to prevent them from kiting, and blow them up, now you need to use 2. Which is then arguably more effective, but still also a lot more gas.
Going infestors is just going to be a much bigger investment now.
I was used to cast fungal on them + few infested terrans, with 8 second fungal duration it was working just fine (sometimes the second fungal was needed). Now to do this, you need at least 3-4 fungals, and with that, you don't even need infested terrans
Yep, that too. Instead of using the fungals as control, while mutas arrive, or infested terrans clean up a bit, you need many more fungals, thus removing the need for other stuff to clean up, its a dps spell instead of being an effective control spell. A single infestor there with enough energy for a fungal, and some terrans, is going to be much less effective than before, probably not very effective at all in fact. So you need more of them. bigger investment.
On February 26 2011 12:12 m00se wrote:Couple of questions:
Do range or melee upgrades increase fungal growth damage?
If my lings are +1 armor, does the +30% armor damage apply? Or is it only to units that START armored without upgrades? <--- if this is the case this could be very deadly for terrans who get +1 armor upgrade, as it will make them more vulnerable
Can Point Defence Drones kill FG?
By a bonus to "armored" units, it means the type. If you look at the bottom middle of your screen wen you have a single unit selected, it will have a stat such as "armored - biological". This does not nessisarily mean that it has armor (ie viking), or that a light unit has no armor (ie armor upgrades). This is what is meant by bonus damage to XXX.
On February 26 2011 22:12 morimacil wrote: Not sure that the change is as good as ppl make it out to be. It seems more like a nerf than anything else to me. Obv the +dmg to armored is nice. But the time reduction? The reason fungal was used in the first place was to keep units in place, not because of the 36 damage it does.
Against air, you cant keep them in place and dps them down. They have a much bigger chance to dodge it with missiles, and even if you do hit, it does a bit of damage, and then they are gone again. Same thing pretty much with ground units.
Now, instead of using it to delay a push, or to keep units in place while you dps them, or to prevent kiting while blings arrive, and so on, all those uses seem to somewhat fall appart. The positive side, is that with a lot of infestors, you can use them as actual dps to kill stuff. But its then a much heavier gas investment.
So having 1-2 infestors just to help prevent kiting, and help your position is much much weaker. On the other hand, having 5-10 infestors is a lot stronger, since it can kill clumped up armies quite fast then. That means infestors are now closer to high templars than to sentries in terms of use, raw damage instead of positional advantage. But the investment is much much higher, since you now need to use them to kill stuff, instead of holding stuff in place.
An example: If you have some queens and infestors, and your opponent has a bunch of phoenix, previously, 2 fungals could hold the phoenix in place long enough for queens to kill them. But with the change, 2 fungals will still do the same damage, but the phoenix take less damage from the queens. So you need more fungals. Since the fungals also do damage, perhaps in 3 fungals, you can end up doing the same amount of damage as you previously did in 2. So it ends up costing 150 more gas.
Same thing with pretty much any other situation really. Instead of using a single fungal on marines to prevent them from kiting, and blow them up, now you need to use 2. Which is then arguably more effective, but still also a lot more gas.
Going infestors is just going to be a much bigger investment now.
I was used to cast fungal on them + few infested terrans, with 8 second fungal duration it was working just fine (sometimes the second fungal was needed). Now to do this, you need at least 3-4 fungals, and with that, you don't even need infested terrans
Yep, that too. Instead of using the fungals as control, while mutas arrive, or infested terrans clean up a bit, you need many more fungals, thus removing the need for other stuff to clean up, its a dps spell instead of being an effective control spell. A single infestor there with enough energy for a fungal, and some terrans, is going to be much less effective than before, probably not very effective at all in fact. So you need more of them. bigger investment.
I agree with this and just when i started to have some success killing a 200/200 stalker heavy army with blink effectively with fungal/baneling bomb + roach/hydra . Now it's back to the drаwing board with this .
I agree with MrBitter, I'm not sold on the buff. First the travel time means that people can simply move split army and be fine. Then there is energy management. It would cost so much energy to fungal for the same duration.
And then fg was used for control not damage. Damage was almost never the issue with fungal and it was a FINE spell. In fact if they wanted to buff the infestor, why not buff Neural Parasite?
Marauder: 125 health - 3 consistant fungals Roach: 145 health - 4 consistant fungals Stalker: 160 health - 5 consistant fungals
While these are good numbers to know, I do not think the main purpose of Fungal Growth will be to outright kill a group of units. I think the purpose of Fungal Growth is two-fold:
-provide control over the army positioning in a major engagement, and even force an engagement sometimes
-weaken a group of your opponents units to turn the tide of a battle in your favor (especially in situations where you have 4+ infestors with pooled energy)
Yes its a buff, there are plenty of ways to make it much more difficult to blink in order to avoid the Fungal Growth. For example, burrow your Infestor until you're ready to fungal giving him less time to prepare and react with blink.
Yes its a buff, there are plenty of ways to make it much more difficult to blink in order to avoid the Fungal Growth. For example, burrow your Infestor until you're ready to fungal giving him less time to prepare and react with blink.
Burrow has nothing to do here. If opponent isn't slow as turtle he is going to see infestor unburrowing and shooting missile.
It's too slow as it is now. Fungaling phoenixes, speedlings, banelings, stalkers, stimmed marines or mutas will be extremelly hard.
It might because I had to wake up early on a weekend, but I'm still confused here:
A unit can only be healed by one medivac at a time at a rate of ~13.5 hp/s (src: liquipedia).
1.3 fungal does 36 dmg/4 s = 9 dmg/s against unarmored targets, 46.8 dmg/4 s = 11.7 dmg/s against armored targets. So fungal doesn't outright negate medivac healing. Correct?
It certainly still does twice the dps which is a strict improvement.
Edit #1: I suppose the way to reconcile this is that the 13.5 hp/s on liquipedia is in real time seconds instead of game seconds. But I haven't had a chance to check yet.
Edit #2: Yeah, just checked on live. That 13.5 hp seems to be in real-life seconds instead of game seconds. The actual healing of the medivac is ~9 hp/game seconds which means against unarmored targets fungal should roughly equalize medivac healing and against armored targets fungal out-damages it.
personally i think the biggest change (and im not pleased about this) is to ZvZ. Muta balls will be back big time and I don't think there is a counter other than bigger Muta ball. And before anyone says it when is the last time you had the energy for the 5 gf's to get the ball (not that you will be able to with the lack of instant cast.
whoever said emp is equivilant (idk how to spell that) to storm, the most basic unit in the terran army is the marine, and in a protoss army its the zelot, now 1 storm is able to kill about what 12 marines while an emp can only take down shields. Now would u rather have 12 units with half their health that naturaly regenerates or have 0 units?
On February 26 2011 12:21 shaby23 wrote: Does that means that Vs Terran infestor will be a must???
It will probably be a must for all match-ups now. Be prepared to go toe to toe with ghosts trying to EMP your Infestors.
like Defiler vs Science Vessels? could it be? that would be awesome
thanks for the info, have no time to test it out, Infestor buff is awesome!
...Or you know, don't change a thing because tanks still do 50+ damage to them a shot at range 13. So if you get +2 weapons you pop them in 2 shots regardless of upgrades.
Except now you can dodge with marines. I thought this would be better but then I saw how slow the projectile was which means the farther you shoot it from, the easier it is to dodge.
I think the infestor change is awesome in idea though it needs tweaking.
First of all they obviously want to change the infestor so that it isn't really a counter to air anymore. Simply not allowing the infestor to hit air was tried before and gotten alot of negative flak, now they simply want to reduce the effect of infestors on air by making it harder to hit them and much harder to keep entire air fleets in place with a few infestors. I think the idea is to let muta's be more important in ZvZ again to obtain a balance between muta/ling strats and roach strats. Muta were simply not used now and I think they want muta's to be an option but with also a reasonable counter, it seems the projectile needs to be a bit faster for that though. Countering drops with fungal into infested terran is also no longer possible as infested terrans take too long too hatch for that, you can however kills medivacs with 3 consecutive fungals now but that takes alot more energy.
The HP buff was absolutely neccesary though, dying to 2 tank shots or just 7 stalker shots was too fast before imo. I had rather seen a change from armored to light though as that would have kept the unit the same in ZvZ, I suppose with the nerf vs air a general buff in HP is fine too.
The fact that fungal is a fine damage spell now is pretty awesome. It becomes much better at quickly killing marines and workers now. You can kill rines in about 6 secs opposed to about 12 secs before which is a HUGE difference, not only because you will receive a lot less damage during that time but also because medivacs can't keep the rines alive anymore. Against stalker colossi voidray balls fungal also gets to be a respectable AoE effect now. You only have to throw a few consecutive fungals and you are really doing quite fine damage now. The fact that it can be dodged only allows for some more sweet micro imo and anytime the stalkers are forming a wall for colossi dodging won't be an option anyway.
Overall I love the effort put into the new infestor. A good buff but not a simple direct buff that will completely invalidate the mutalisk. Muta's will be more viable in the mirror and they will probably be more neccesary against terran to stop drops. Infestors will hopefully be a great supplementary unit though, one that is much more useful to get which will increase variety in the zerg army. Most of all more useful infestors in all matchups will be great as they are not only decent against marine masses now they can also damage roaches and stalker masses quite well now. Finally more used infestors means more use of hive tech. How often is hive simply not gotten now because you need infestation pit, hive tech AND ultra cavern or greater spire then? Now if infestors are already mandatory because they are good on their own hive tech will also be cheaper and faster by comparison.
The actual speed of the projectile may need tweaking though, i'm guessing it can be just a little faster.
edit: by the way how does fungal do against zerglings now? Fungal didn't kill lings because of hp regeneration over 8 secs before but with fungal being 4 now will it actually kill lings?
On February 27 2011 02:18 KawaiiRice wrote: that fungal doesn't look too fast, i think i could micro that with marines o-o;; :D...
you probably could!
Has anyone played around with measuring its speed yet? It almost looks like stimmed marines could just run in the opposite direction and outrun the projectile completely.
its neither a buff nor a nerf. Its simply a mechanic change, that now allows light air units vs zerg + drop harassment isn't stoppable with only one infestor like it was before (similar to the storm nerf so harassment is more encouraged). But at the same time they maintained the use of the infestor in its normaly duty (snipe vikings sniping broodlords sniping tanks sniping infestors xD). Also they found a way to make hydras more appealing in zvz because roaches die to fungal now like nothing (one reason for the vs armor buffs the other one is colossi voidray, that are so stacked up).
And zerg units are so damn fast anyway that 4 seconds is more then enough.
So overall perfect way to add variety to zerg matchups and the patch was overall aiming at making harassment easier to the races that could stop unmicrod harassment with 3 clicks.
Sooo zvt: medivacs drops work against investors again yay (dodge fungal by loading in then drop again to almost completly negate the damage from fungal), vikings die even faster now, so a dodged fungal doesn't matter. zvp: same for warp prism *-*, voidray colossi ball should fear suicide infestors lol zvz: mutas work again, hydras are actually a nice addition if your opponnent has infestors that kill your roaches
PS: with marines you will hope for infestors anyway, since banelings are harder to deal with then infestors x3.
PPS: this change makes me more blizzard fan girlish, as even i didn't think of changing it that way (well had the projektil idea for some time against drops, but wasn't thinking about ways to make it better in other things)
My brain hurts why the f. Blizzard wanted to NERF fungal growth.I believe we will suffer for another 2 months to regain instant cast. And ZvZ will become Muta fest. I mean anyone gets fungalled with this speed is outright moron and should stop playing Starcraft.
In a real battle situation Lings would nibble the stalkers to death while they move around like this.
Sure, but blink can be used to retreat right? If the stalkers just blink back at the right moment, they can just dodge the fungal and retreat whereas in the current patch, the stalkers wouldn't be able to run at all.
And the missile is also pretty slow. If a group of marines were just on the edge of the fungal cast range, all they have to do is stim and run back. So instead of 10 marines getting fungaled, only 1 or 2 do cause the marines will already have retreated by the time the fungal growth reaches there.
Or basically any unit that is running away from the infestor will now be able to dodge it. Phoenixes running away from an infestor can easily out pace the fungal growth.
It's not a straight buff. You can say that all you want but in a literal sense, you are wrong. It's a buff and a nerf, and the nerf happens to hit at one of the most useful parts of the Infestor. Essentially, this change has completely redefined the purpose of the Infestor. It's a useful new late game unit, but we have lost our ability to delay pushes for long amounts of time to gather our forces. We have lost our ability to be precise in any fashion at all. It is no longer reliable because whether it lands or not is based on the enemy's skill, not ours. To me it seems like an overall nerf.
It doesn't help the early game where Zerg has major issues coming out ahead against many different kinds of harass.
This is a huge disguised nerf, don't kid yourselves.
Disguise #1 Infestors have slightly more HP!
Disguise #2 Fungal does slightly more damage to armored units!
Nerf #1 The spell roots enemies HALF as long as before. This means less positioning time and that Banelings will have a tiny window to do their damage. This means using the spell as cloak detection (ex. Banshees) will be twice as energy consuming. This means bringing in your units to kill Mutalisk/Viking/Reaper/Stalker/Phoenix harass will be infinitesimally harder.
Nerf #2 The spell has a slow projectile, instead of being instant cast anywhere. This means anyone who is skilled can simply dodge your Fungals, especially if you are casting it at it's max range (which was basically the only way of doing it, otherwise your Infestors are dead). This means fungaling Mutalisk/Viking/Reaper/Stalker/Phoenix harass will be infinitesimally harder.
"But... but... It has increased DPS and it's quicker!"
It will be doing exactly the same amount of damage per energy, except for that tiny buff towards armored units. If you are using your Infestors to do damage as the fight is already underway, it's too late. You should have been delaying them and damaging them the entire time they were coming across the map towards your base or coming through a choke point.
"But... but... It does more damage than PSYSTORM now!"
What are you smoking? It doesn't do more damage OR dps than psystorm and it never will.
On February 27 2011 03:41 Sajuuk7 wrote: This is a huge disguised nerf, don't kid yourselves.
Disguise #1 Infestors have slightly more HP!
Disguise #2 Fungal does slightly more damage to armored units!
Nerf #1 The spell roots enemies HALF as long as before. This means less positioning time and that Banelings will have a tiny window to do their damage. This means using the spell as cloak detection (ex. Banshees) will be twice as energy consuming. This means bringing in your units to kill Mutalisk/Viking/Reaper/Stalker/Phoenix harass will be infinitesimally harder.
Nerf #2 The spell has a slow projectile, instead of being instant cast anywhere. This means anyone who is skilled can simply dodge your Fungals, especially if you are casting it at it's max range (which was basically the only way of doing it, otherwise your Infestors are dead). This means fungaling Mutalisk/Viking/Reaper/Stalker/Phoenix harass will be infinitesimally harder.
"But... but... It has increased DPS and it's quicker!"
It will be doing exactly the same amount of damage per energy, except for that tiny buff towards armored units. If you are using your Infestors to do damage as the fight is already underway, it's too late. You should have been delaying them and damaging them the entire time they were coming across the map towards your base or coming through a choke point.
"But... but... It does more damage than PSYSTORM now!"
What are you smoking? It doesn't do more damage OR dps than psystorm and it never will.
I don't really buy all this talk about the "muta ball" coming back. i mean, honestly, how many of us respond to 6 mutas in ZvZ with..an infestor? nonsense. You throw down your spore crawler, get a hydra den and make sure your queens can protect each other. No one throws down an infestor pit after seeing a spire. This patch doesn't change that at all. Hydras still eat mutas like they don't exist and roach/hydra will still be the same against muta/ling
Disguise #2 Fungal does slightly more damage to armored units!
slightly? Even though you shrug off DPS below, it does make a difference. In the timespan of a battle, let's take 16 seconds for example, infestors will now deal 192 damage (4 casts) to armored units, whereas in the current version they deal 72 (2 casts). It takes more infestors, but the increase is not slight by any means. It's nearly 3 times the damage.
Nerf #1 The spell roots enemies HALF as long as before. This means less positioning time and that Banelings will have a tiny window to do their damage. This means using the spell as cloak detection (ex. Banshees) will be twice as energy consuming. This means bringing in your units to kill Mutalisk/Viking/Reaper/Stalker/Phoenix harass will be infinitesimally harder.
In general, what the change does is make fungal more of an AoE spell, and less of a stun spell (obviously). Pretty much they just made it synergize with banelings less, but do more damage.
All they did was change the spell, chill out. Use an overseer to detect the banshee, or wait to fungal until you actually have something there to kill it.
Nerf #2 The spell has a slow projectile, instead of being instant cast anywhere. This means anyone who is skilled can simply dodge your Fungals, especially if you are casting it at it's max range (which was basically the only way of doing it, otherwise your Infestors are dead). This means fungaling Mutalisk/Viking/Reaper/Stalker/Phoenix harass will be infinitesimally harder.
We'll see about that. If you're not looking at your marines/stalkers at the time of the cast, it's not gonna happen. And if you are, you're not going to have much warning. In a non-engagement, you'll see the infestor in the corner of your vision as the fungal ball comes at you. In an engagement, he's got so many places he could logically cast, you'd have to predict when and where he casts in order to dodge. It's not like psi storm where you see it and then move out of the way to mitigate damage. Once fungal hits you, you can't move and you take all the damage.
Worst case scenario, they have to increase the speed of the fungal ball a bit. But IMO, this change is great if for no other reason than for spectator and skill ceiling value.
"But... but... It has increased DPS and it's quicker!"
It will be doing exactly the same amount of damage per energy, except for that tiny buff towards armored units. If you are using your Infestors to do damage as the fight is already underway, it's too late. You should have been delaying them and damaging them the entire time they were coming across the map towards your base or coming through a choke point.
See my points above. No way to say it other than you're flat out wrong.
Currently, the best way is to delay and slowly deal damage with fungal before the engagement. With the new fungal, you will have the opportunity to deal significantly more damage during the engagement.
"But... but... It does more damage than PSYSTORM now!"
What are you smoking? It doesn't do more damage OR dps than psystorm and it never will.
Fungal vs psi storm damage is debatable, and depends on the speed of the unit targetted and whether or not they are cornered. But the inability to micro is worth something, so it's tough to say whether that makes up for the damage.
Also, please refrain from antagonizing comments such as
"But... but... It has increased DPS and it's quicker!"
"But... but... It does more damage than PSYSTORM now!"
It's an insult to the intelligence of those who disagree with you, doesn't contribute to the discussion, and makes you look like a troll.
I have to point out as a T player I am somewhat excited and somewhat worried. Not saying anything is OP or IMBA, terran need to essentially split the marines with micro against banelings. Now, it seems like we have to do it with infestors as well since if we split, less damage is done. However, I do feel sorry for zerg as they have to get pretty accurate with those slow projectiles.
On February 26 2011 12:21 shaby23 wrote: Does that means that Vs Terran infestor will be a must???
It will probably be a must for all match-ups now. Be prepared to go toe to toe with ghosts trying to EMP your Infestors.
Both EMP and Feedback are already extremely effective against casters and these spells are mainly used against casters with instant abilities.
An Infestor has no way of defending itself against a Templar or a Ghost. Infestors will, if standard, be a play that you need to transition out of when your opponent responds with Templar/Ghost.
Infestors in ZvZ will be bad ass. Which is a good thing, Infestor+Roach should beat pure Roach if we want a micro intensive matchup.
storm = 7.064*2*80 = 1,130.23 fungal = 12.56 * 36 * 2 = 904.43 oh crap, oh well maybe just for armored units but hey you cant dodge fungal and armored units make up like half of the game
On February 27 2011 04:38 funk100 wrote: yeah, btw since it has a bigger radius than psi storm it does more overall damage on most units, assuming they are tightly packed
stalkers & maraders & roaches, as they are roughly the same size and armored + Show Spoiler +
psy storm raidius = 1.5 area = 1.5squared * pie = 7.064 7.064*80 = 565.12 assuming stalkers are 1 matrix in area (arverage size)
fungal radius = 2 area = 2 squared * pie = 12.56 damage = 12.56 * 36 * 1.3 (30% extra armored) = 587.808
storm = 7.064*2*80 = 1,130.23 fungal = 12.56 * 36 * 2 = 904.43 oh crap, oh well maybe just for armored units but hey you cant dodge fungal and armored units make up like half of the game
So you realize halfway through that you are wrong, hide that fact in a spoiler, and are also wrong about not being able to dodge fungal, it's EXTREMELY slow and VERY dodgable.
"But... but... It has increased DPS and it's quicker!"
"But... but... It does more damage than PSYSTORM now!"
It's an insult to the intelligence of those who disagree with you, doesn't contribute to the discussion, and makes you look like a troll.
No, I am not a troll. The people saying psystorm does less damage are, and people who put "The question is: What are you smoking?" as their entire post are. I'm simply stating their shortmindedness, much like yours.
Ex. They have cloaked banshees. Solution - get Overseer. Duh... or you could have pre-patch Infestors.
It's still a great defensive spell, if you kill the marines instead of stall them, there's nothing to defend against!
The fact that fungal can be used more effectively against units w/ medivac support is huge. The fact that fungal in combo with speedlings can now more quickly take down marine balls is huge.
I really think this is a nerf for mid game TvZ. The whole point of going of infestor that it was strong v T ground and weak but playable v T air. This change will make it insanely hard to stop drop play.
The increased DPS i really don't care about to much either. The main problem for me was running out of energy, not that fungal didn't do damage fast enough. Still the same damage per energy
Saying that, it's a buff for the late game, when not so limited by energy and requiring the dps against mass medivacs.
have to agree with the nerf faction on the forum. definitely feels like it got worse. some people argue that it can be used to effectively soften up the toss deathball now. while i agree that this can be used to some extent in exactly that fashion, i really dont want a zerg equivalent to the protoss psistorm. its just doesnt feel right. the fungal growth spell was great in its previous incarnation and didnt need any changes to it. it did exactly what it was supposed to do, ensnare or stall. im also at kind of a loss seeing how effective it will be vs a toss deathball. as stated before i guess it can be used especially due to its 47 dmg vs armored (which comprises most of the deathball) but i dont know if this is what blizzard really intended for the spell. it just feels like they havent given the whole concept of fungal growth too much thought when they were thinking about changing it.
Yup! Really good points OP and I really like these changes! Now they might be worth it to get against MM instead of only banelings (which would eventually lead to the T winning since banelings suicide and don't live past a fight).
And the FG will be great for things like blink stalkers or even mech, without stunning them for so long (which really messed up the matchups imo, for example 8 second stun on a pushing mech army is too long)
It basicly changes the fungal role from control to damage. Wich means Zerg will have even less ways to set up an attack. I rather had it as a way to control the battlefield, we will see i guess.
I dont think the extra damage and 20 HP is worth making it into a projectile and cutting the root in half.
The long root duration was one of its selling points, it could delay pushes that much longer. I dont think extra damage is as good versus mech as people think, an 110 hp infestor is going to get obliterated by siege tanks anyways, so its not like it will suddenly become a good unit versus mech.
The projectile is also very dodge-able, its going to screw up ZvZ by making fungaling faster air units very hard, and faster ground units are going to be able to dodge it. It roots blink stalkers but now they can blink before it even hits them, whats the logic in that?
In a non-engagement, you'll see the infestor in the corner of your vision as the fungal ball comes at you. In an engagement, he's got so many places he could logically cast, you'd have to predict when and where he casts in order to dodge. It's not like psi storm where you see it and then move out of the way to mitigate damage. Once fungal hits you, you can't move and you take all the damage.
You dont have to predict when and where someone casts in order to dodge. You can just look at the projectile, and dodge that. The patch turns infestors into banelings!
Imagine a standard ZvT situation: Bunch a tanks sieged up. Some marines running about in between the tanks. Now, if you run in banelings, the marines run away, the tanks kill the banelings. However, if you have infestors and banelings, you can fungal, and kill the marines with your banelings. After the patch, the infestor is basically the same as banelings. Instead of complementing the baneling by restricting mobility, it does the exact same thing banelings do. aoe damage that can be dodged by kiting. After the patch, having infestors against the marine tank, is the same thing as having banelings. If your opponent is careless, you can kill all the marines easily. If he is paying attention to them, and kiting banelings and fungal missiles, then the marines stay alive while the tanks shoot stuff.
So that kinda makes them worthless in the early and midgame really. I mean, if your opponent is kiting/splitting, they will suck, and if he isnt, you might as well use banelings. They dont really serve as detection anymore due to the extremely short time, and they wont really help hold air units in place for your queens to kill (again, due to the extremely short time). So for pretty much all purposes, they are banelings.
A unit that deals a moderate amount of aoe damage, which can relatively easily be dodged. Sound familiar? Thats because its both a baneling, and a new infestor.
Fungal growth can now be dodged with Blink, there is a link to a video in the PTR thread.
Psionic Storm 80 damage over 4 seconds, 9 range, 1,5 radius, targetting all Fungal Growth 36/47 damage over 4 seconds, 9 range, 2,0 radius, immobilizing, enemy only
High Templar 50m/150g, 80hp light, 1.87 move, can morph into archon Infestor 100m/150g, 110hp armored, 2.5 move (3.25 on creep), can get burrow, can move while burrowed
The new more front-loaded damage of Fungal Growth means it can be used much in the same fashion as Psionic Storm and since it doesn't hit your own units there is no problem using it with melee units.
Since I saw MrBitter's 12 Weeks with the Pros - with Root Catz I've been using ALOT more infestors. And they are indeed great units. Now with that buff they will be a really big asset in any Zerg army.
Yes, it can be used the same as storm, but its easier to take 0 damage from fungals than it is to take 0 damage from storms, and it takes twice the gas to get similar amounts of damage, and you dont get beefy tanks that deal aoe damage once you spent the energy. The only real comparison to storm in fact, is that they are both spells that deal aoe damage.
On February 27 2011 06:34 EmilA wrote: Very interesting how Blizzard went from nerfing fungal growth to hell on last PTR (yet reconsidering) to massively buffing it on the next.
Both changes actually achieve the same; that is to say make mass air more viable even when there are infestors out
At higher levels, where this spell is needed the most, it will be a nerf.
Fungal Growth was better for control, and instantly pinning down moving squads. To me, the damage was always secondary to using it as a tool to prevent or facilitate escapes and ideal army positioning.
Now, anyone worth their salt will bait this spell and dodge it like it's going out of style. Think of Psi-Storm... that spell is instant and it's still dodged like it's cake.
The increased dps is appealing, I won't argue that; but I'm not sure it'll pay off in the long run when everyone can avoid the spell when it most matters - mid game as players are scrambling for map control and trying to mass up at the same time. That, to me, is when FG really shines. Defensively and offensively, the longer snare is huge.
FG has a small radius, and the linked video of how easy it is for people to avoid the spell makes me think that Masters and above (i.e. pros) will take advantage of this in a big way.
Rather huge role change, as units can dodge it much easier than before and the build time of Infested Terrans is 5, meaning you'll need to basically drop the Infested Terran before fungalling air units...
On February 27 2011 06:34 EmilA wrote: Very interesting how Blizzard went from nerfing fungal growth to hell on last PTR (yet reconsidering) to massively buffing it on the next.
Its annoying when ppl just think its a buff. Its not a buff, its a nerf.
Upsides: with twice the amount of infestors, you can do twice the amount of damage you did prepatch
Downsides: Can easily be dodged Can no longer be used as detection Can no longer be used effectively without a huge investment Can no longer be used to prevent drops with some infested terrans and a fungal from a single infestor Can no longer be used to delay a push Can no longer be used to grant your units a positional advantage Can no longer be used to limit mobility
On February 26 2011 13:07 obsid wrote: @pirates, hopefuly protoss deathballs become "not-standard" in the future. And we see a lot more harrass based, multi-pronged attacks.
Not if they are removing kaydarin amulet it won't. Robo units are so immobile, and gateway units suck. Every protoss late game will be using a robo army, because of how good hydras are against the only 3rd option: the stargate. Plus, infestors, which apparently are buffed, crush phoenix play.
So no, deathball will be even more standard than it is now.
If this is a buff I don't want it. I wish blizzard gave us the option to choose between pre-BUFF(!) fungal and post Buff(!) fungal. I bet after few days people will understand that this is just a major nerf to zerg as kaydarin amulet is to protoss.
1-2 Infestors will not be able to control map position as well with the changes. However, 7-8 Infestors will be able to do INCREDIBLE damage in a battle.
In other words its role is shifting from a support unit to an AoE unit where mass infestor will be much stronger.
I was never much of a fan of the instant cast spells. I like the higher skill involved with projectile attacks and it make games more entertaining. As a zerg player I can say I like the changes.
I was dissapointed with this change. Yes, zerg needs a buff, but the infester was actually good the way it was, and I think the new change will make it to strong. I hope the change isn't kept into the actual patch.
On February 27 2011 05:31 Assirra wrote: It basicly changes the fungal role from control to damage. Wich means Zerg will have even less ways to set up an attack. I rather had it as a way to control the battlefield, we will see i guess.
my opinion, pretty much. It seems more of a rework than anything else, nerf or buff. In the current live version, FG is definetly a control spell, the damage largely symbolic. The main use is to pin a target in place. In the PTR version, the emphasis is clearly on the damage side of things. The root is still there, but it now has a largely negligible effect.
If you're going to theorycraft that "twice the DPS" is automatically better, take into account that against decent players at least some of the FGs will miss or hit fewer targets than intended. More likely than not, most of them will miss entirely.
So no, it is not twice the dps, it is far far less DPS, and it also takes the control away from the Zerg making us rely even more on the opponent making mistakes.
As a protoss player, I think this is great since it encourages micro and harass from protoss as opposed to the deathball strategy. Right now, if I try to harass zerg with blink stalkers, 1-2 good funghals that I cannot dodge will mean the death of the majority of my stalker ball as they get engulfed by lings and roaches. I need to keep my stalkers with my collossus and 1a around. Also means that infestors cannot counter fast air like mutas and phoenix which is great. Before, 1 good funghal and all my phoenixes are just stuck waiting for some hydras to come wipe them out. Now, I can dodge them and even if I fail, zerg will probably need another FG to hold my phoenix .
My only concern is actually they would be too good at killing sentries which protoss really needs in the mid-game to be effective vs zerg. However, probably have collossus to outrange the infestors or HTs that can feedback the infestors so not the end of the world. Also, the fact that protoss have more harass strats open to them now will probably keep this balanced.
Will this be the death of the InControl sentry collossus playstyle?
On February 27 2011 07:24 Ghost-z wrote: 1-2 Infestors will not be able to control map position as well with the changes. However, 7-8 Infestors will be able to do INCREDIBLE damage in a battle.
In other words its role is shifting from a support unit to an AoE unit where mass infestor will be much stronger.
I was never much of a fan of the instant cast spells. I like the higher skill involved with projectile attacks and it make games more entertaining. As a zerg player I can say I like the changes.
How is guessing where/when your opponent is moving "skill"?
I mean really, I'm not trying to be a bitch about this but when I go muta vs Zerg (I know, I know) and they respond with Hydra/Infestor play, I can still do a good job of avoiding instant cast fungals as it is right now - just by moving around my mutas in a completely spastic fashion.
They literally have to guess where I'm going to go.
People also do that currently to bait psi-storms, or avoid EMPs, etc. etc.
I don't see how it's more skill on the part of the person casting FG when they're really trying to make an educated guess as to where the enemy might be in the next 2 seconds.
that sux for terran; now zergs basically have psionic storms that cannot be dodged.
they can be dodged more easily than storms, and still do half the damage.
As a protoss player, I think this is great since it encourages micro and harass from protoss as opposed to the deathball strategy. Right now, if I try to harass zerg with blink stalkers, 1-2 good funghals that I cannot dodge will mean the death of the majority of my stalker ball as they get engulfed by lings and roaches. I need to keep my stalkers with my collossus and 1a around. Also means that infestors cannot counter fast air like mutas and phoenix which is great. Before, 1 good funghal and all my phoenixes are just stuck waiting for some hydras to come wipe them out. Now, I can dodge them and even if I fail, zerg will probably need another FG to hold my phoenix .
My only concern is actually they would be too good at killing sentries which protoss really needs in the mid-game to be effective vs zerg. However, probably have collossus to outrange the infestors or HTs that can feedback the infestors so not the end of the world. Also, the fact that protoss have more harass strats open to them now will probably keep this balanced.
You think its great, because now you can harass uncontested, on top of having a deathball? And you think its too good if for 450 gas, zerg is allowed to kill a clump of undefended sentries left stationary and unattended?
I feel like this is a huge nerf to Fungal's actual use.
Fungal was supposed to give the Zerg player control of the battlefield, much like a forcefield (but completely different). It was also supposed to prevent micro, particularly marine micro. Now micro is more powerful against it.
On the bright side, it might be a possible counter to the Stalker/VR/Collosi combo, as you quickly fungal, move, then go back and fungal, until huge sections of his army are much weaker.
Thanks for this post. First glance, I felt like the infestor change was a nerf.
Particularly because Infestors can still pretty much be two-shotted by siege tanks, fungal growth was cut in half and now can be countered by a point defense drone.
On the bright side, it might be a possible counter to the Stalker/VR/Collosi combo, as you quickly fungal, move, then go back and fungal, until huge sections of his army are much weaker.
Thats not a change, you can already do that now. The only change about that is that it will take less time to kill stuff with just fungals, they can be dodged initially, and 90% of fungal's utility is lost.
but killing or weakening something by repeated fungals, that can already be done now.
On February 27 2011 08:32 mprs wrote: if one more person links that video as proof that fungal is dodgeable, i will cry
because sc2 is an isolated dota where you spend 99% of your time controlling stalkers waiting to blink away from a fungal.
If your stalkers are out in a vulnerable spot, and you've scouted infesters, then yes, you're going to be pretty aware and will EASILY be able to dodge at least half of the Fungal. Unless you're just bad.
Regardless of how easy or hard it is to dodge, it's POSSIBLE to completely negate the effects of fungal. 100% wasted energy. That can't be said for anything else. Unless you just storm at nothing, you will instantly deal some damage. It takes the skill away from the Zerg and creates yet another instance of Zerg having to just pray their opponent makes a mistake in order to have a shot at winning.
On February 27 2011 08:32 mprs wrote: if one more person links that video as proof that fungal is dodgeable, i will cry
because sc2 is an isolated dota where you spend 99% of your time controlling stalkers waiting to blink away from a fungal.
In the PTR thread there is a video of Marines easily dodging the missile. =[
It's not SO bad... I mean, with stimmed marines they lose 10 life.
So what i think will start happening is you SHOW the infestor to the marines, so the player is on edge on dodging this fungal.. Then throw out an infested terran egg at him, (hopefully hel'l react and stim and run from it, at which point you then fungal once his stim movement speed shows). When the fungal DOES land it will 1 hit stimmed marines, no need for a re-cast unless combat shields.
With stalkers you could probably throw the egg to force a blink, then fungal.
And ofcourse ontop of this you get that one infested terran doing some dps.
On February 27 2011 08:32 mprs wrote: if one more person links that video as proof that fungal is dodgeable, i will cry
because sc2 is an isolated dota where you spend 99% of your time controlling stalkers waiting to blink away from a fungal.
I'm with you on this one MPRS. I get the impression that the guy casting the FG in the Stalker vid was almost deliberately trying to miss (or he was very unskilled).
Plus as has been stated, a small amount of lings would have helped hold the Stalkers in place and make casting FG a bit easier.
On February 27 2011 08:48 Hobokinz wrote: [In the PTR thread there is a video of Marines easily dodging the missile. =[
Just for sake of comparison to the Stalker vid - Link to Marine video here:
I would say that in the Marine vid when the FG's did land against the MM ball it did a fantastic amount of damage. In the first engagement where the Infestors landed 2 or 3 FG's even a small amount of Zerglings (less than 20 or so) would have easily been able to clean up the rest of the Marines and Mauraders I feel.
I don't know I haven't gotten a chance to try out the PTR but I so far am really digging the higher DPS now. If that means I need to cast FG twice now to get an 8 second snare, I'm alright with that. I'll just make more Infestors.
As it stands now I feel that yes it harder to land an FG now, but when it does, with additional Fungal casts anything I do hit will be dead very soon after.
I think they should slightly increase the projectile speed. Given that the range is up to 9, it either needs a larger radius or increase projectile speed.... and larger radius would seem unfair if going against a ball of units.
However, 7-8 Infestors will be able to do INCREDIBLE damage in a battle.
they will be able to do similar aoe to high templars for twice the cost, assuming the fungals actually ever land. Thats not really incredible.
Well, at least the enemy can't run out from under the storm after it's already down and take only 20 damage total, the root actually makes it absurdly easy to chain cast it.
If i remember correctly this is what a lot of the community wanted, a casting move that required some amount of skill to cast as well as making the game more exciting. I'm sure there was a thread somewhere when talking about this that a lot of the community actually favored having emp n fungal with some sort of projectile.
for lower league players its a buff as it deals more damage/more hp. As micro stuff doesn't really go into account that much. And the skill was modded the way that you can micro easier against it.
On February 27 2011 10:39 multiversed- wrote: i already tried to fight this battle on reddit. at the end of the day i found myself asking what the point was.
my view is that low level players cannot use the potential positional advantage this now provides effectively so they view it as a nerf.
/end
Plz explain yourself, if anything for positional advantage its a nerf since you lose control you had with longer fungal. that means less time to actually position your units before the fungal wears off and stuff can freely run around.
On February 27 2011 10:39 multiversed- wrote: i already tried to fight this battle on reddit. at the end of the day i found myself asking what the point was.
my view is that low level players cannot use the potential positional advantage this now provides effectively so they view it as a nerf.
/end
Plz explain yourself, if anything for positional advantage its a nerf since you lose control you had with longer fungal. that means less time to actually position your units before the fungal wears off and stuff can freely run around.
How well would hit-and-run fungals work? I'd imagine with the better DPS that it would deplete the medivac's energy and if there are no medivacs then you can weaken them over and over.
On February 27 2011 10:39 multiversed- wrote: i already tried to fight this battle on reddit. at the end of the day i found myself asking what the point was.
my view is that low level players cannot use the potential positional advantage this now provides effectively so they view it as a nerf.
/end
If anything they lowered the positional advantage by cutting the root in half and making the spell dodge able.
if someone shoots fungal at you, your tenancy will be to move your army. high level players will force situations where you take fungal, or you move your army in a very bad position.
IMO it is very good in its PTR state. While the role has changed from push stalling to push slowing, it also does quite a sizable chunk of damage.
Comparing it to psi storm is not that great. Storm does 10-80 damage depending on the other players movement. Meanwhile fungal is guaranteed damage if it hits.
Fungals were never about the damage though, making fungal into a bad psi storm is exactly what this game doesn't need. i would'nt mind halving the damage of fungal to keep the damn same snare time. the positional advantage is by far more important than the damage.
On February 27 2011 10:54 multiversed- wrote: if someone shoots fungal at you, your tenancy will be to move your army. high level players will force situations where you take fungal, or you move your army in a very bad position.
You are assuming way to much on this one. Pretty big difference between holding him in a position you want, and hoping he moves in a way you want.
All i really see when you this is marines poking in and out of tank lines, leaving to infestors still having the same problems in ZvT they do now with the addition of fungal being harder to land.
i repeatedly see people making this mistake, so i am not singling you out at all... why would you force any strategy in a situation where it doesn't make any sense?
On February 27 2011 11:01 PrinceXizor wrote: Fungals were never about the damage though, making fungal into a bad psi storm is exactly what this game doesn't need. i would'nt mind halving the damage of fungal to keep the damn same snare time. the positional advantage is by far more important than the damage.
Personally for my play style it was always about the damage and less important was the hold, so I'm not too upset about the snare time being halved.
I usually would cast the FG and keep my army away from the fight so that the DPS could be done over the full 8 seconds before engaging with my army.
Now with the full DPS being done over half the time, I would not hesitate now to cast FG and then send my army straight in knowing that by the time they got a good concave I would have dealt at least 36 damage - possibly more if they are armoured. Also by being able to send my army in it frees up my APM to be able to concentrate on the Infestors to possibly try and deal more damage with more FG's or if needed micro them away if they are in a bad position.
Not saying that the snare time being reduced isn't going to hurt some people's playstyle... Just for me (and I would imagine at least a few others) it will play right into my way of playing.
As a protoss player, I think this is great since it encourages micro and harass from protoss as opposed to the deathball strategy. Right now, if I try to harass zerg with blink stalkers, 1-2 good funghals that I cannot dodge will mean the death of the majority of my stalker ball as they get engulfed by lings and roaches. I need to keep my stalkers with my collossus and 1a around. Also means that infestors cannot counter fast air like mutas and phoenix which is great. Before, 1 good funghal and all my phoenixes are just stuck waiting for some hydras to come wipe them out. Now, I can dodge them and even if I fail, zerg will probably need another FG to hold my phoenix .
My only concern is actually they would be too good at killing sentries which protoss really needs in the mid-game to be effective vs zerg. However, probably have collossus to outrange the infestors or HTs that can feedback the infestors so not the end of the world. Also, the fact that protoss have more harass strats open to them now will probably keep this balanced.
You think its great, because now you can harass uncontested, on top of having a deathball? And you think its too good if for 450 gas, zerg is allowed to kill a clump of undefended sentries left stationary and unattended?
Are you serious? I believe there are still lots of ways to defend vs stalker and phoenix harass without infestors. This change simply means they are still actually viable once infestors come out. Right now, you simply cannot use blink vs someone with infestors since if you lose ~10 stalkers to 2 FG its GG.
I didn't say the sentries were undefended. I'm saying if I lump 8-9 sentries into a gateway, collossus, sentry deathball, you could use repeat FGs during the course of an engagement to take them all out plus soften up units around them. This makes infestors a lot better vs any kinds of deathball.There is no way a protoss can spare 800-900 gas in the midgame so this make infestors genuinely scary wheras right now, they suck vs protoss deathballs. However, like I said in my post, it will be hard for zerg to pull off against a good protoss player given collossus or HTs so it deserves to be so powerful.
On February 27 2011 11:07 multiversed- wrote: i repeatedly see people making this mistake, so i am not singling you out at all... why would you force any strategy in a situation where it doesn't make any sense?
Or you could actually prove your claims rather then posing hypothetical questions. Terrans will almost always have tanks and protoss will almost always have colossi, by that logic infestors never make sense.
On February 27 2011 11:07 multiversed- wrote: i repeatedly see people making this mistake, so i am not singling you out at all... why would you force any strategy in a situation where it doesn't make any sense?
Or you could actually prove your claims rather then posing hypothetical questions. Terrans will almost always have tanks and protoss will almost always have colossi, by that logic infestors never make sense.
On February 27 2011 11:07 multiversed- wrote: i repeatedly see people making this mistake, so i am not singling you out at all... why would you force any strategy in a situation where it doesn't make any sense?
Or you could actually prove your claims rather then posing hypothetical questions. Terrans will almost always have tanks and protoss will almost always have colossi, by that logic infestors never make sense.
sup?
You are either really stupid or a troll.
I will assume both and be on my merry way. Would rather not waste my time bashing my head against a wall versus a 10 post count troll with no legitimate arguments.
you literally just proved my point. read what you wrote, then tried to defend yourself with.
but for your sake... i go muta when i catch tank pushes. as it's retarded to force infestor builds. when i do get caught with infestors vs tanks. i use an ability called burrow and this other one infested terran. it's really sick and super effective. sometimes i only need 3 infestors.
On February 27 2011 11:28 multiversed- wrote: you literally just proved my point. read what you wrote, then tried to defend yourself with.
but for your sake... i go muta when i catch tank pushes. as it's retarded to force infestor builds. when i do get caught with infestors vs tanks. i use an ability called burrow and this other one infested terran. it's really sick and super effective. sometimes i only need 3 infestors.
So your justification of infestor change is that we should never use them in the first place, brilliant.
On February 27 2011 11:28 multiversed- wrote: you literally just proved my point. read what you wrote, then tried to defend yourself with.
but for your sake... i go muta when i catch tank pushes. as it's retarded to force infestor builds. when i do get caught with infestors vs tanks. i use an ability called burrow and this other one infested terran. it's really sick and super effective. sometimes i only need 3 infestors.
So your justification of infestor change is that we should never use them in the first place, brilliant.
you shouldn't try to force anything to work in an unfavorable situation. you are the one limiting yourself here. i feel that there are now more situations where investor is viable, namely vs protoss.
it seems to me that you are just trying to save face, and i surely don't want to attack your ego. we can agree to disagree and i'll even admit i'm wrong if it makes you feel better. though i must admit that i don't see the point. i surely wasn't attacking your character, ego, or ability. simply stating my opinion.
On February 27 2011 11:28 multiversed- wrote: you literally just proved my point. read what you wrote, then tried to defend yourself with.
but for your sake... i go muta when i catch tank pushes. as it's retarded to force infestor builds. when i do get caught with infestors vs tanks. i use an ability called burrow and this other one infested terran. it's really sick and super effective. sometimes i only need 3 infestors.
So your justification of infestor change is that we should never use them in the first place, brilliant.
you shouldn't try to force anything to work in an unfavorable situation. you are the one limiting yourself here. i feel that there are now more situations where investor is viable, namely vs protoss.
it seems to me that you are just trying to save face, and i surely don't want to attack your ego. we can agree to disagree and i'll even admit i'm wrong if it makes you feel better. though i must admit that i don't see the point. i surely wasn't attacking your character, ego, or ability. simply stating my opinion.
My argument is that it hurt infestors in the current metagame because of marine/tank and colossi being popular, and thats not even touching on all it will change, the projectile will change ZvZ and zergs general playstyle vs air units.
Your argument if that we should never have used them in the first place, so the changes are fine because infestors were always unfavorable.
On February 27 2011 11:28 multiversed- wrote: you literally just proved my point. read what you wrote, then tried to defend yourself with.
but for your sake... i go muta when i catch tank pushes. as it's retarded to force infestor builds. when i do get caught with infestors vs tanks. i use an ability called burrow and this other one infested terran. it's really sick and super effective. sometimes i only need 3 infestors.
So your justification of infestor change is that we should never use them in the first place, brilliant.
you shouldn't try to force anything to work in an unfavorable situation. you are the one limiting yourself here. i feel that there are now more situations where investor is viable, namely vs protoss.
it seems to me that you are just trying to save face, and i surely don't want to attack your ego. we can agree to disagree and i'll even admit i'm wrong if it makes you feel better. though i must admit that i don't see the point. i surely wasn't attacking your character, ego, or ability. simply stating my opinion.
My argument is that it hurt infestors in the current metagame because of marine/tank and colossi being popular, and thats not even touching on all it will change, the projectile will change ZvZ and zergs general playstyle vs air units.
Your argument if that we should never have used them in the first place, so the changes are fine because infestors were always unfavorable.
you are misstating my position to suit your argument. that is clear to everyone. have a good day.
On February 27 2011 11:28 multiversed- wrote: you literally just proved my point. read what you wrote, then tried to defend yourself with.
but for your sake... i go muta when i catch tank pushes. as it's retarded to force infestor builds. when i do get caught with infestors vs tanks. i use an ability called burrow and this other one infested terran. it's really sick and super effective. sometimes i only need 3 infestors.
So your justification of infestor change is that we should never use them in the first place, brilliant.
you shouldn't try to force anything to work in an unfavorable situation. you are the one limiting yourself here. i feel that there are now more situations where investor is viable, namely vs protoss.
it seems to me that you are just trying to save face, and i surely don't want to attack your ego. we can agree to disagree and i'll even admit i'm wrong if it makes you feel better. though i must admit that i don't see the point. i surely wasn't attacking your character, ego, or ability. simply stating my opinion.
My argument is that it hurt infestors in the current metagame because of marine/tank and colossi being popular, and thats not even touching on all it will change, the projectile will change ZvZ and zergs general playstyle vs air units.
Your argument if that we should never have used them in the first place, so the changes are fine because infestors were always unfavorable.
you are misstating my position to suit your argument. that is clear to everyone. have a good day.
Alll you did to argue my point was pose a hypothetical question and give no evidence or actual reasoning to back up your position on the change, im sure thats pretty clear.
the videos prove nothing but the fact that you shouldn't use pure infestors.
they'll probably increase the missile speed.
i've never actually used fungals unless my infestors were on high ground OR if the army has already engaged as it is way too easy for 2 marauders or 2 stalkers to just break off from the group and kill the infestor before it gets a fungal off.
I'm saying if I lump 8-9 sentries into a gateway, collossus, sentry deathball, you could use repeat FGs during the course of an engagement to take them all out plus soften up units around them. This makes infestors a lot better vs any kinds of deathball.There is no way a protoss can spare 800-900 gas in the midgame so this make infestors genuinely scary wheras right now, they suck vs protoss deathballs. However, like I said in my post, it will be hard for zerg to pull off against a good protoss player given collossus or HTs so it deserves to be so powerful.
?? I dont understand these kind of posts. if you wish to repeatedly fungal a bunch of sentries, you can already do it now. they dont get any more scary compared to now. And killing off sentries during an engagement, so after all the forcefields land, is relatively useless.
On February 27 2011 11:28 multiversed- wrote: you literally just proved my point. read what you wrote, then tried to defend yourself with.
but for your sake... i go muta when i catch tank pushes. as it's retarded to force infestor builds. when i do get caught with infestors vs tanks. i use an ability called burrow and this other one infested terran. it's really sick and super effective. sometimes i only need 3 infestors.
So your justification of infestor change is that we should never use them in the first place, brilliant.
you shouldn't try to force anything to work in an unfavorable situation. you are the one limiting yourself here. i feel that there are now more situations where investor is viable, namely vs protoss.
it seems to me that you are just trying to save face, and i surely don't want to attack your ego. we can agree to disagree and i'll even admit i'm wrong if it makes you feel better. though i must admit that i don't see the point. i surely wasn't attacking your character, ego, or ability. simply stating my opinion.
My argument is that it hurt infestors in the current metagame because of marine/tank and colossi being popular, and thats not even touching on all it will change, the projectile will change ZvZ and zergs general playstyle vs air units.
Your argument if that we should never have used them in the first place, so the changes are fine because infestors were always unfavorable.
you are misstating my position to suit your argument. that is clear to everyone. have a good day.
Alll you did to argue my point was pose a hypothetical question and give no evidence or actual reasoning to back up your position on the change, im sure thats pretty clear.
actual proof of what? what are you actually asking of me and why does it matter? i gave my opinion. i wasn't stating facts. do you think i'm a fucking idiot? it's become so common recently to get extremely argumentative and angry and not be able to articulate what the fuck you are talking about. it makes you look obnoxiously foolish. nevermind the fact that you are clearly bad.
On the bright side, it might be a possible counter to the Stalker/VR/Collosi combo, as you quickly fungal, move, then go back and fungal, until huge sections of his army are much weaker.
Thats not a change, you can already do that now. The only change about that is that it will take less time to kill stuff with just fungals, they can be dodged initially, and 90% of fungal's utility is lost.
but killing or weakening something by repeated fungals, that can already be done now.
I was more talking about two things:
1.) Extra damage to armored. 2.) You can lead your fungals, so you can hit a unit that was >9 range away at the time of casting.
Nonetheless, i've been wondering about Fungals vs. that strategy anyway. Collosi/VR/Stalkers don't interfere with eachother's pathing, so a single fungal could probably hit a bunch of stalkers, a bunch of VRs, and a few collosi. That's a lot of damage. The only problem is that Collosi have the same range as fungal.
well i talked with a mate over this, but i might just be completly wrong, as im just a 2900 diamond zerg. from my understanding zvt will with the change not be ling/bling(infestor/muta, it will be ling/infestor(bling)/muta, since the infestor will do enough damage to kill of marine balls, instead of just locking them for the banelings to run in. a infestor is 200 gas (sry if im wrong), thats 10 banelings. if you take into account that banelings around 30-50% of your banelings will get slaugthered at the engage by tanks, or at least they will at my level, thats a fair deal. cause banelings are freaking suicide units, they have no other purpose then running into their death and taking as many marines with them as possible. now the problem is, banelings are just effective versus marines, while the new fungal will do fair damage against any other unit aswell and locks down aswell for your lings to kill the rest of. besides, infestors do also cost less larva, which will open up place for more lings or even some roach/hydras and if you control them properly, you can safe them and use them again. but you also have to take into account that the lower ensaretime will also come into effect in lategame, where infestors are used as support units for broodlords and ultralisks, to keep the units clumped up to have the t3 units do sick splash damage. so from my understanding, blizzard wants to strenghten the zerg midgame and make the transition into t3 way smoother and faster, since you will get infestors anyway and allow the zerg a more aggressive and dictionary playstyle in that period instead of just being passive and reactive till maxed. to make it a somewhat of fair trade, they did nerv the support capabilitys of the infestor lategame (very) _slightly_. looking foward to the patch, but id be also superpleased if they added 1 more range to the corruptors
I think the largest buff of the infestor is that people will actually start to use it more. Before this change (if it will even happen) the infestor, i believe, is the strongest unit. It just has so much potential.
While i am very happy with the changes it received, i still think that the Neural Parasite is not going to be used at all. Making it both limited duration (very short) and making it be researched is just so dumb. It has the possibility of being an amazing spell but i still think that it is not worth it. And now with Fungal being so strong, NP will just get pushed further away.
I'm sorry OP, but where do you have any evidence this is a buff? I don't think you do a fair comparison of the way it's clearly worse than before. I agree that in some ways it's clearly better, but in other ways it's clearly worse. I'm not sure whether it's a net buff or a net nerf, but I think it's pretty close and I actually don't know what the best way to deal with later game blink stalkers now since they can dodge pretty easily.
DPS is also a terrible way to look at this since fungal was not as much of an in-battle spell before in terms of doing damage. If you casted fungal in battle before it was for stun and that's less effective now, it does do more damage, so there's some trade-off, but the fact that you'll miss more often makes it worse I think. And since fungal was mostly used as a delay tactic to weaken marines and drain medivac energy it's substantially worse in that regard.
I'm open to the idea that I could be proven wrong, but you didn't "TEST" anything really other than confirm that what blizzard posted in the patch notes was correct.
Personally I feel that the missile is getting the ability ruined. Why? We need to be on the front. If I miss one fungal I kind of lose very expensive and valuable infestors. See the T video's and tell me how that will balance out the cost efficiency for Z.
Extra DPS is meaningless. It would be cute if Fungal functioned like Psyonic Storm, but it doesn't... Units can't move out of it once its been cast. The single decent thing to come out of this change is that infestors can now deal damage through medivac heals, but I really don't think that outweighs the negatives...
Projectile targeting: This is silly. As others have pointed out, through most of the mid-game, infestors are a one-time-use kind of unit. You spend 150 gas, you cast 1 fungal, and then you hope like hell that you can keep that same infestor alive long enough to regenerate his energy. Missing a fungal, especially when playing a style that's centered around it, can be game ending. Turning it into a projectile isn't just going to make it easier to miss. It's going to make landing fungal growth a nightmare.
Reduced stun duration: This is really the biggy. Right now it takes 1 fungal, and 2 infested terrans to defend a drop with an infestor. After the patch, it will take 2 fungals, and 1 infested terran. That's a much more sizable energy investment, and its going to translate to the Zerg having to keep more of his very important infestors back at his base than out on the field where they're most needed.
Extra damage to armored: Let's be real with each other. The only matchup this is going to effect is the mirror. Now fungal is slightly better against roach. This sill probably result in a shift away from roach/hydra and back into roach/infestor. It's not going to make dealing with a Toss ball any easier, and it's sure as hell not going to change the way infestors are used in ZvT.
All-in-all, this is a fucking dumb change in my book. I'm extremely saddened by the patch notes thus far, as all it shows is Blizzard's inability (or outright refusal) to address the problems that are mots pressing for Zerg players:
The Toss ball is unkillable after 15 minutes.
Zerg is extremely limited in they're options in all the matchups because the other races can so easily dictate what Z has to make just to stay alive.
On February 26 2011 12:31 obsid wrote: WOW, some crazy ass changed, and I do agree this is a buff for FG (already one of the best spells in the game), although its not as good vr mutas/hellions/phoenix anymore as the lower mobility reduction which was the really good thing against those fast units.
I think infesters are now the counter to the protoss stalker/colsi doom ball. AND the marine/marauder/medivac doom ball AND the roach/hydra doom balls. This is a wonderful change to the match up, because now we will be seeing a lot more ghost/emp and HT/feedback play, making all the zerg match ups MUCH more intresting and micro intensive (no more doom balls a+moving to victory)!
Maybe even muta will become the counter to just infesters (no hydra)? As the lower stun time, means muta might be able to snipe out those infesters.
Such fine words my friend(: I agree completely it will make SC2 more fun =D
Well, it's not going to worth keeping 2 infestors to stop a drop - it will be better to just fungal when medivac is unloaded and then attack with few lings + queen.
Even though it's a nerf to FG I think it's a good change to make FG missile because it gives more micro to the game. Maybe that missile should be a little faster., or infestors should automatically come with 75 energy bevause now it will be missed much more.
I don't think increasing the skill ceiling is the correct way to approach zerg balance right now, basically saying "well its a bad change for Z but at least it adds more skill to use a spell thats now worse then it originally was". ಠ_ಠ
You guys are acting like you need insane micro to use FG. The missile is simply not that slow. Its about as fast or a little faster than a zergling on creep. And its not like you are shooting your FG's across the map here, close ranges, aoe, means its not easy to dodge it.
As far as those of you who are saying I haven't tested this, I have. I can safely say that balls of marines are now hard countered. Infestors have to be used differently however no doubt about that.
Having around 8+ infestors is no longer overkill due to the damage buff.
I also used them in a fight where I used roaches + infestor against a mmm and it worked well. While it wasnt a "hard" counter, it definitely stood up against the terran.
Why did it stand up?
Because the terran could not stim, the second I engaged with roaches I used my FG's and they all went to red. And those marines that stimmed died to FG.
You guys should also check out just how strong they are against miners. Its ridiculous how much faster you can take them out now.
And now, the stalling argument. Yes, those extra 4 seconds are nice, but instead of stalling I can now kill them. IMO better trade off.
Also, if you actually think about it for a sec, whats gonna stall a terran more?
a 4 second 36 damage spell that can kill balls of rines in 6 seconds?
or an 8 second damage spell that can be outhealed by medivacs.
Think about it, infestors will no longer be that nuisance that they have to deal with while pushing; terrans are actually scared of them now. The new infestors will stall the terran from even moving out of his base.
On February 27 2011 18:14 m00se wrote: You guys are acting like you need insane micro to use FG. The missile is simply not that slow. Its about as fast or a little faster than a zergling on creep. And its not like you are shooting your FG's across the map here, close ranges, aoe, means its not easy to dodge it.
As far as those of you who are saying I haven't tested this, I have. I can safely say that balls of marines are now hard countered. Infestors have to be used differently however no doubt about that.
Having around 8+ infestors is no longer overkill due to the damage buff.
I also used them in a fight where I used roaches + infestor against a mmm and it worked well. While it wasnt a "hard" counter, it definitely stood up against the terran.
Why did it stand up?
Because the terran could not stim, the second I engaged with roaches I used my FG's and they all went to red. And those marines that stimmed died to FG.
You guys should also check out just how strong they are against miners. Its ridiculous how much faster you can take them out now.
And now, the stalling argument. Yes, those extra 4 seconds are nice, but instead of stalling I can now kill them. IMO better trade off.
Also, if you actually think about it for a sec, whats gonna stall a terran more?
a 4 second 36 damage spell that can kill balls of rines in 6 seconds?
or an 8 second damage spell that can be outhealed by medivacs.
Think about it, infestors will no longer be that nuisance that they have to deal with while pushing; terrans are actually scared of them now. The new infestors will stall the terran from even moving out of his base.
Seems like you don't understand things at all.
FG was always used from maximum range because otherwise your infestor going to die. Now on max range it will be easy to dodge for every fast unit (marine, stalker, muta, phoenix, hellion, etc.).
You say 8+ infestors is not overkill? Of course it is. Do you think they are free or what? Having 8 infestors means your ground army is weak.
What about worker killing - it haven't changed pretty much anything. You needed before 2 FG to kill them and you need now 2 FG. The only difference is you are going to kill them 2x faster, and that's all.
i don't understand why zergs don't mind control a probe and make their own death ball...if you do the math, it probably ends up more cost efficient then throwing endless 200/200 armies into a meat grinder.
ZvP turning into PvP?? you heard it here first.... + Show Spoiler +
On February 27 2011 18:14 m00se wrote: You guys are acting like you need insane micro to use FG. The missile is simply not that slow. Its about as fast or a little faster than a zergling on creep. And its not like you are shooting your FG's across the map here, close ranges, aoe, means its not easy to dodge it.
As far as those of you who are saying I haven't tested this, I have. I can safely say that balls of marines are now hard countered. Infestors have to be used differently however no doubt about that.
Having around 8+ infestors is no longer overkill due to the damage buff.
I also used them in a fight where I used roaches + infestor against a mmm and it worked well. While it wasnt a "hard" counter, it definitely stood up against the terran.
Why did it stand up?
Because the terran could not stim, the second I engaged with roaches I used my FG's and they all went to red. And those marines that stimmed died to FG.
You guys should also check out just how strong they are against miners. Its ridiculous how much faster you can take them out now.
And now, the stalling argument. Yes, those extra 4 seconds are nice, but instead of stalling I can now kill them. IMO better trade off.
Also, if you actually think about it for a sec, whats gonna stall a terran more?
a 4 second 36 damage spell that can kill balls of rines in 6 seconds?
or an 8 second damage spell that can be outhealed by medivacs.
Think about it, infestors will no longer be that nuisance that they have to deal with while pushing; terrans are actually scared of them now. The new infestors will stall the terran from even moving out of his base.
Seems like you don't understand things at all.
FG was always used from maximum range because otherwise your infestor going to die. Now on max range it will be easy to dodge for every fast unit (marine, stalker, muta, phoenix, hellion, etc.).
You say 8+ infestors is not overkill? Of course it is. Do you think they are free or what? Having 8 infestors mean your ground army is weak.
What about worker killing - it haven't changed pretty much anything. You needed before 2 FG to kill them and you need now 2 FG. The only difference is you are going to kill them 2x faster, and that's all.
I never said dont shoot FG from max range, I said that at the range you are shooting the fungal, its hard to dodge.
Its not overkill because they actually kill things now. It used to be overkill when they would only be used to stall because they did not have killing power, now they are actually a useful combat unit that can wipe out or really weaken units.
Killing workers twice as fast is a huge buff, not a small change.
Im done arguing because its obvious many of you who are complaining haven't even tried it in the ptr.
On February 27 2011 18:14 m00se wrote: You guys are acting like you need insane micro to use FG. The missile is simply not that slow. Its about as fast or a little faster than a zergling on creep. And its not like you are shooting your FG's across the map here, close ranges, aoe, means its not easy to dodge it.
As far as those of you who are saying I haven't tested this, I have. I can safely say that balls of marines are now hard countered. Infestors have to be used differently however no doubt about that.
Having around 8+ infestors is no longer overkill due to the damage buff.
I also used them in a fight where I used roaches + infestor against a mmm and it worked well. While it wasnt a "hard" counter, it definitely stood up against the terran.
Why did it stand up?
Because the terran could not stim, the second I engaged with roaches I used my FG's and they all went to red. And those marines that stimmed died to FG.
You guys should also check out just how strong they are against miners. Its ridiculous how much faster you can take them out now.
And now, the stalling argument. Yes, those extra 4 seconds are nice, but instead of stalling I can now kill them. IMO better trade off.
Also, if you actually think about it for a sec, whats gonna stall a terran more?
a 4 second 36 damage spell that can kill balls of rines in 6 seconds?
or an 8 second damage spell that can be outhealed by medivacs.
Think about it, infestors will no longer be that nuisance that they have to deal with while pushing; terrans are actually scared of them now. The new infestors will stall the terran from even moving out of his base.
Seems like you don't understand things at all.
FG was always used from maximum range because otherwise your infestor going to die. Now on max range it will be easy to dodge for every fast unit (marine, stalker, muta, phoenix, hellion, etc.).
You say 8+ infestors is not overkill? Of course it is. Do you think they are free or what? Having 8 infestors mean your ground army is weak.
What about worker killing - it haven't changed pretty much anything. You needed before 2 FG to kill them and you need now 2 FG. The only difference is you are going to kill them 2x faster, and that's all.
I never said dont shoot FG from max range, I said that at the range you are shooting the fungal, its hard to dodge.
Its not overkill because they actually kill things now. It used to be overkill when they would only be used to stall because they did not have killing power, now they are actually a useful combat unit that can wipe out or really weaken units.
Killing workers twice as fast is a huge buff, not a small change.
Im done arguing because its obvious many of you who are complaining haven't even tried it in the ptr.
Explain me how this will be good in combat? Combat usually does not last 20 sec. so you can't throw 5 fungals and kill him that way. You going to attack, cast fungal and that's all. Yeah it will help dps wise but nothing huge.
Killing workers twice as fast is a huge buff, not a small change.
Man you still need 2 fungals, how this is a huge buff for killing workers?
On February 27 2011 18:14 m00se wrote: You guys are acting like you need insane micro to use FG. The missile is simply not that slow. Its about as fast or a little faster than a zergling on creep. And its not like you are shooting your FG's across the map here, close ranges, aoe, means its not easy to dodge it.
As far as those of you who are saying I haven't tested this, I have. I can safely say that balls of marines are now hard countered. Infestors have to be used differently however no doubt about that.
Having around 8+ infestors is no longer overkill due to the damage buff.
I also used them in a fight where I used roaches + infestor against a mmm and it worked well. While it wasnt a "hard" counter, it definitely stood up against the terran.
Why did it stand up?
Because the terran could not stim, the second I engaged with roaches I used my FG's and they all went to red. And those marines that stimmed died to FG.
You guys should also check out just how strong they are against miners. Its ridiculous how much faster you can take them out now.
And now, the stalling argument. Yes, those extra 4 seconds are nice, but instead of stalling I can now kill them. IMO better trade off.
Also, if you actually think about it for a sec, whats gonna stall a terran more?
a 4 second 36 damage spell that can kill balls of rines in 6 seconds?
or an 8 second damage spell that can be outhealed by medivacs.
Think about it, infestors will no longer be that nuisance that they have to deal with while pushing; terrans are actually scared of them now. The new infestors will stall the terran from even moving out of his base.
Seems like you don't understand things at all.
FG was always used from maximum range because otherwise your infestor going to die. Now on max range it will be easy to dodge for every fast unit (marine, stalker, muta, phoenix, hellion, etc.).
You say 8+ infestors is not overkill? Of course it is. Do you think they are free or what? Having 8 infestors mean your ground army is weak.
What about worker killing - it haven't changed pretty much anything. You needed before 2 FG to kill them and you need now 2 FG. The only difference is you are going to kill them 2x faster, and that's all.
I never said dont shoot FG from max range, I said that at the range you are shooting the fungal, its hard to dodge.
Its not overkill because they actually kill things now. It used to be overkill when they would only be used to stall because they did not have killing power, now they are actually a useful combat unit that can wipe out or really weaken units.
Killing workers twice as fast is a huge buff, not a small change.
Im done arguing because its obvious many of you who are complaining haven't even tried it in the ptr.
Explain me how this will be good in combat? Combat usually does not last 20 sec. so you can't throw 5 fungals and kill him that way. You going to attack, cast fungal and that's all. Yeah it will help dps wise but nothing huge.
On February 27 2011 18:14 m00se wrote: You guys are acting like you need insane micro to use FG. The missile is simply not that slow. Its about as fast or a little faster than a zergling on creep. And its not like you are shooting your FG's across the map here, close ranges, aoe, means its not easy to dodge it.
As far as those of you who are saying I haven't tested this, I have. I can safely say that balls of marines are now hard countered. Infestors have to be used differently however no doubt about that.
Having around 8+ infestors is no longer overkill due to the damage buff.
I also used them in a fight where I used roaches + infestor against a mmm and it worked well. While it wasnt a "hard" counter, it definitely stood up against the terran.
Why did it stand up?
Because the terran could not stim, the second I engaged with roaches I used my FG's and they all went to red. And those marines that stimmed died to FG.
You guys should also check out just how strong they are against miners. Its ridiculous how much faster you can take them out now.
And now, the stalling argument. Yes, those extra 4 seconds are nice, but instead of stalling I can now kill them. IMO better trade off.
Also, if you actually think about it for a sec, whats gonna stall a terran more?
a 4 second 36 damage spell that can kill balls of rines in 6 seconds?
or an 8 second damage spell that can be outhealed by medivacs.
Think about it, infestors will no longer be that nuisance that they have to deal with while pushing; terrans are actually scared of them now. The new infestors will stall the terran from even moving out of his base.
Seems like you don't understand things at all.
FG was always used from maximum range because otherwise your infestor going to die. Now on max range it will be easy to dodge for every fast unit (marine, stalker, muta, phoenix, hellion, etc.).
You say 8+ infestors is not overkill? Of course it is. Do you think they are free or what? Having 8 infestors mean your ground army is weak.
What about worker killing - it haven't changed pretty much anything. You needed before 2 FG to kill them and you need now 2 FG. The only difference is you are going to kill them 2x faster, and that's all.
I never said dont shoot FG from max range, I said that at the range you are shooting the fungal, its hard to dodge.
Its not overkill because they actually kill things now. It used to be overkill when they would only be used to stall because they did not have killing power, now they are actually a useful combat unit that can wipe out or really weaken units.
Killing workers twice as fast is a huge buff, not a small change.
Im done arguing because its obvious many of you who are complaining haven't even tried it in the ptr.
Explain me how this will be good in combat? Combat usually does not last 20 sec. so you can't throw 5 fungals and kill him that way. You going to attack, cast fungal and that's all. Yeah it will help dps wise but nothing huge.
Killing workers twice as fast is a huge buff, not a small change.
Man you still need 2 fungals, how this is a huge buff for killing workers?
Are you seriously asking me how 36 damage in 4 second is good for combat? Or how 47 damage in 4 seconds is good for combat?
You can now literally spam FG on balls of units
And about the workers, you can now FG for 2 seconds twice and get the hell out, instead of waiting for 6 seconds then throwing another.
Do you understand that the combat lasts just as long as 1 FG lasts? You are going to FG 1 time anyways. But yeah I agree it will help because the dps is higher but nothing that huge as people try to say.
I can see the missile stuff be a problem against Hellion. Fungal with speedling is actually a good way to deal with them. It will probably be more tricky.
Now i won't bash the changes before i can test it.
Concerning the way to deal with a drop, i can imagine that if you wait for the unload of marines and move your drones, then two fungal will kill all his stuff, it's not that bad is it ?
I believe that the real thing about these patch notes is that it's just not what zergs (like myself) were hoping for.
Infestors dont come out early enough to help us deny fat 1 base attacks. They then loose their usefulness against end game armies. Thus the window of infestor use is still very tight and frankly you can live without it.
I wouldn't call this a buff, at most it's a change.
ZvZ: (It's a nerf) locking down a stack of mutas just got much much harder and using fungal to keep their roachs out of formation now takes double the fungals and hitting speedlings on creep can be very difficult.
ZvT: (It's a nerf I think but haven't played enough games to call it yet) At maximum range stimmed bioballs can easily avoid it but up closer it still works good, however when engaging Tank / Marine or MMM you normally want to cast it immediatly as the fight starts. Agianst dropships it's a very large nerf as you now need twice the infestors to stop a drop, it is however much better at destorying flocks of Vikings when your using Broodlords.
ZvP: (It might be a buff) It's useless agianst Blink Stalkers which is annoying but I keep wondering about its usefulness agianst the deathball as it's lower duration / bonus to armored makes me think there might be a way to use it to repeatedly chip away at the deathball before bum rushing it with everything you have or chip away at the deathball until they are forced to engage you.
Many thanks for testing this out, it helped settle an argument between a friend and I while I was home and without the ability to get on SC. Really great work.
Well... This change makes me sad, roach/hydra in ZvZ is now going to be completely ridiculous if you compare it to roach/infestor... 45 damage over 4 sec instead of 36 over 8...
Going to be a pretty sick anti-roach/hydra spell since it will actually be useful to spam it for damage...
Not going to be as effective to delay a push but def going to make it a lot weaker for the small amount of units you have to clean up :/
GG Blizz on making ZvZ even more weird... Guess I'm going to all-in every game now instead of going for a FG spam macro game....
Am i the only one that feels that most of these arguments are done in too much of a vacuum, neglecting economy and timings?
ZvZ is not going to change much in my opinion. My understanding is that mutas are a bad choice in ZvZ since, by the time you have them out in meaningful numbers, you will have a huge army of roaches knocking at your door and nothing very good to fight them: lings just melt and mutas dont deal damage fast enough. Also, i dotn think it is really possible to have infestors with enough energy to FG out in time to defend against a mutalisk rush. in summary, the infestor is not the biggest problem for muta play, not dying to roaches is.
as far as the roach wars are concerned... i still dont see it changing the matchup much. lets assume that both players get lair for roach speed, then you would still need to spend 100g on the pit and 150g on the glands. that is the gas value of 10 roaches already. every infestor added to the army is another 150g, or 6 less roaches. i dont think that the increased damage from FG can offset theses numbers, so when both players are on even economy, trying to transition into infestors while the other guy still gets more roaches might just kill you imo. yoou could probably still do it if you were ahead already, but in that case it is still easier to just pump more roaches and overwhelm him that way.
ZvP, how will the infestor be useful against the deathball? the first FG will be completely absorbed by shields, the second FG will be largely absorbed by shields for both stalkers and zealots. A voidray's shields can fully absorb two FGs and will only take hull damage on the 3rd and only the 4th FG in a row would do any hull damage to a colossus. how many infestors were you planning to get? on what money, while still having a useful fighting army?
On February 27 2011 04:38 funk100 wrote: yeah, btw since it has a bigger radius than psi storm it does more overall damage on most units, assuming they are tightly packed
stalkers & maraders & roaches, as they are roughly the same size and armored + Show Spoiler +
psy storm raidius = 1.5 area = 1.5squared * pie = 7.064 7.064*80 = 565.12 assuming stalkers are 1 matrix in area (arverage size)
fungal radius = 2 area = 2 squared * pie = 12.56 damage = 12.56 * 36 * 1.3 (30% extra armored) = 587.808
storm = 7.064*2*80 = 1,130.23 fungal = 12.56 * 36 * 2 = 904.43 oh crap, oh well maybe just for armored units but hey you cant dodge fungal and armored units make up like half of the game
So you realize halfway through that you are wrong, hide that fact in a spoiler, and are also wrong about not being able to dodge fungal, it's EXTREMELY slow and VERY dodgable.
ok, but armored units do make up like 50% of the game, AND infestores still have their +25 energy - overall i think better than storm
I do not think this is either a nerf or a buff honestly. I believe that this will change some dynamics in the meta game in pvz and really encourage some more harrass oriented play. I find it disheartening that players complain that a spell that in its current state makes entire armies virtually worthless will now require timing, micro, and proper unit composition to use. (isnt that what starcraft is about?) I really think that using a single unit to essentially shut down most forms of harrassment (IE. phoenyx, drops, dts, banshees, and any number of other things) as well as slow entire armies as they try to advance across the map, really cause the game to be very restrictive in play styles. If I cant harrass you I have to make a big death ball and pray basically.
I am feeling and hoping that this is going to encourage new styles of play and unit compositions in the mid to late game as a slow moving death ball will be in alot of trouble if 6ish infestors can fungal the boogers out of them and then do a nice baneling drop The combination of the increaed dmg + splash from banes will be very nice in discouraging the big tightly packed armies causing them to spread out thereby reducing their effective AOE vs your clumped up army.
If you aim that projectile in to the center of their ball your pretty much GOING to hit an edge of it.. I think it will be more about anticipating your opponents movements as he is backing up or moving.
Regardless I hope to see more interesting forms of play and harrassment come from this, and honestly.. I dont believe the infestor should have been as useful as it was. it served SO MANY roles it was ridiculous whereas the templar was anti caster/ dps , the ghost is well... Anti caster / snipe bio unit and has a potential for movement control with properly placed nukes in battle. Infestor.... harrassment control, coutners mass small units, counters mass air, completley counters mid sized metal pushes with a thor base.
You can argue all you want about "well if they split their units" etc but the truth is there is not a unit in the game that proper positioning doesnt make a big difference with and the ability to instantly lock down a massive clump of units effectively making them unable to respond to changing combat conditions is VERY VERY powerful and I agree witht he 8 - 4 second change. The projectile encourages more varied styles of play, and the dmg buff is nice so that if it accually hits with proper micro you have gained a serious advantage over those units. Think of it this way, upgrades for the most part make small changes IE zealot +1 vs lings 2 hits instead of 3 to kill the zergling thats just 4 more damage overall yet it completley changes the balance of the fight. you do 9 dps over 4 seconds to a bunch of units you have effectively negated all of their defense upgrades + a little extra meaning the rest of your army has just increased in effectiveness by a great deal. This is a very very powerful spell and I think works to increase zerg unti synergy. Anyway thats my take on it sorry if this is a bit long winded.
The only thing I find weird is that when you fire the projectile against a marine ball and it moves CLOSER to the infestor, the fungal misses. Imo it should be reworked so when the projectile hits a target, the effect of the fungal begins, not that you have a set target. That'd make it so a terran player cant just run straight for your infestors in order to dodge the fungal but instead need to split to the sides, then attack the infestor.
It's not a buff or a nerf. It's a side-grade. It completely changes the spell, and it's purpose.
In ZvT, Fungal growth was used to hold armies in place so that banelings could do the damage to the massive light units and so lings could clean up with full surrounds. Now that the time was lowered, it doesn't serve the purpose of holding units in place, but rather withering bio armies with ranged damage, THEN having units clean up. Basically the gas you were going to spend on banelings will be better served as infestors, which will totally clean up the light, and weaken the marauders, and the slings will clean everything up.
In ZvP: Infestors were used lightly, but mainly for the purpose of holding blink stalkers in place to let slings get full surrounds. Now, I think it better serves the purpose of weakening the health of the zealots so that the slings have any easier job taking care of gateway armies. Not to mention this could totally obliterate sentries.
And in ZvZ: Most infestor usage was for massive roach fights, where holding them in place meant better concaves for you. Now, we will see less roaches on the field and see a transition between mass sling builds that rely on running past zerg armies and avoiding Fungals, we MAY see more muta play, which will in turn mean more hydras coming out. And since hydras are weak health units, then the infestor will be put on the field again.
Honestly, don't think of this as a buff or nerf. It's a total revamp of the spell, it's purpose has completely changed.
On February 27 2011 23:18 morimacil wrote: Did you guys see the baneling buff though?
Apparently, you can now also spend twice the amount on banelings, and get twice the damage! same as with the infestors.
Wait what?
Yeah, everyone seems to be amazed by the fact that post patch, you can use twice the amount of infestors, and do twice the damage! So I just thought it would be useful to mention that after the patch, you will also be able to invest twice as much in banelings, and if they actually hit, they will end up doing twice as much damage, just like infestors!
One thing I think that people are forgetting is that Siege tanks have a range of 13 and FG is 9 range, a competent terran will keep his marines fairly close and use the medi's to supply sight to the siege tanks effectively making infesters situational at best. In all honesty, because of the range of terran units and just having more units in general, this strat is going to balance zvt for a couple weeks, maybe 2 months until something else comes along (it might only affect the <diamond leagues for more than a week...)
as far as whether or not this is a buff/nerf? It gives the Z army an effective way of dealing with MMM (w/out tanks) which is really nice, it also promotes hive tech and you can still get 6-8 mutas to defend drops and prompt turrets. Hopefully we will be seeing more of the destiny/psy/bitter upgraded ling/infester/bling into quick hive plays.
The last thing that could hinder this play is the speed of the fg, I played w/ it a little bit and it looked pretty fast but I don't know if it's fast enough (then again it might be perfect speed for gosu players to react and move, that would be awesome)
On February 26 2011 12:12 m00se wrote: YES I TESTED ALL THIS IN PTR!
1)You can actually time your fungal growths now, shoot and run mmm will run straight into it.
When it was instant cast your infestor had to be in range the instant it hit, which made it more vulnerable.
2) 36 damage in 4 seconds is a huge buff, u can actually place one fungal, and then another 2 seconds later and kill a bunch of marines
3) medivac can no longer outheal FG damage <---- HUGE
If this is right, this is one of the best days in my life!!
No moar QQ. Just build some infestors and stop the terran rine push.
While the infestor seems to have to be microed, it looks like now it is possible to kill rines without banlings if you have enough energy on your infestors to cast some FG in a row.
(then again it might be perfect speed for gosu players to react and move, that would be awesome)
Awesome for the opponent, not awesome for the zerg.
It gives the Z army an effective way of dealing with MMM (w/out tanks) which is really nice,
You can deal with MMM with banelings if they are not kiting. If they are kiting, infestors can stop that, allowing you to still kill them. But post patch, fungals can be dodged too, so that makes the infestors same as banelings.
On February 27 2011 23:15 LittLeD wrote: The only thing I find weird is that when you fire the projectile against a marine ball and it moves CLOSER to the infestor, the fungal misses. Imo it should be reworked so when the projectile hits a target, the effect of the fungal begins, not that you have a set target. That'd make it so a terran player cant just run straight for your infestors in order to dodge the fungal but instead need to split to the sides, then attack the infestor.
Uhhh as a zerg, don't you WANT his rines closer to your army? Lings and banelings do wonders at close range. It's similar to storm, even if the opponent dodges it, they still have to dodge into a less optimal position even if the damage itself isn't done. FG => rines run closer to kill infestor => baneling massacre. You will never (should never) have your infestors alone vs a marine army to begin with.
On February 27 2011 23:03 xSuperflyTnT wrote: I do not think this is either a nerf or a buff honestly. I believe that this will change some dynamics in the meta game in pvz and really encourage some more harrass oriented play. I find it disheartening that players complain that a spell that in its current state makes entire armies virtually worthless will now require timing, micro, and proper unit composition to use. (isnt that what starcraft is about?) I really think that using a single unit to essentially shut down most forms of harrassment (IE. phoenyx, drops, dts, banshees, and any number of other things) as well as slow entire armies as they try to advance across the map, really cause the game to be very restrictive in play styles. If I cant harrass you I have to make a big death ball and pray basically.
I am feeling and hoping that this is going to encourage new styles of play and unit compositions in the mid to late game as a slow moving death ball will be in alot of trouble if 6ish infestors can fungal the boogers out of them and then do a nice baneling drop The combination of the increaed dmg + splash from banes will be very nice in discouraging the big tightly packed armies causing them to spread out thereby reducing their effective AOE vs your clumped up army.
If you aim that projectile in to the center of their ball your pretty much GOING to hit an edge of it.. I think it will be more about anticipating your opponents movements as he is backing up or moving.
Regardless I hope to see more interesting forms of play and harrassment come from this, and honestly.. I dont believe the infestor should have been as useful as it was. it served SO MANY roles it was ridiculous whereas the templar was anti caster/ dps , the ghost is well... Anti caster / snipe bio unit and has a potential for movement control with properly placed nukes in battle. Infestor.... harrassment control, coutners mass small units, counters mass air, completley counters mid sized metal pushes with a thor base.
You can argue all you want about "well if they split their units" etc but the truth is there is not a unit in the game that proper positioning doesnt make a big difference with and the ability to instantly lock down a massive clump of units effectively making them unable to respond to changing combat conditions is VERY VERY powerful and I agree witht he 8 - 4 second change. The projectile encourages more varied styles of play, and the dmg buff is nice so that if it accually hits with proper micro you have gained a serious advantage over those units. Think of it this way, upgrades for the most part make small changes IE zealot +1 vs lings 2 hits instead of 3 to kill the zergling thats just 4 more damage overall yet it completley changes the balance of the fight. you do 9 dps over 4 seconds to a bunch of units you have effectively negated all of their defense upgrades + a little extra meaning the rest of your army has just increased in effectiveness by a great deal. This is a very very powerful spell and I think works to increase zerg unti synergy. Anyway thats my take on it sorry if this is a bit long winded.
sc2 players are the biggest whiners. This is a buff. The missile is better gameplay. Try picking up some gosu skills and timing the shot. This change will seperate the good zergies from the bad zergies.
On February 28 2011 03:23 SurroundSound wrote: sc2 players are the biggest whiners. This is a buff. The missile is better gameplay. Try picking up some gosu skills and timing the shot. This change will seperate the good zergies from the bad zergies.
On February 27 2011 23:03 xSuperflyTnT wrote: Regardless I hope to see more interesting forms of play and harrassment come from this, and honestly.. I dont believe the infestor should have been as useful as it was. it served SO MANY roles it was ridiculous whereas the templar was anti caster/ dps , the ghost is well... Anti caster / snipe bio unit and has a potential for movement control with properly placed nukes in battle. Infestor.... harrassment control, coutners mass small units, counters mass air, completley counters mid sized metal pushes with a thor base.
Speaking of a unit with so many purposes, let's talk about the marine... haha. I mean, it's inevitable that some units will serve many roles in an army while their "equivalents" in the other races will not.
Hmm, the changes are going to really affect how I play. Its going to take some time getting used to the infestors changing from a support caster to a damage dealer.
I'll say one thing, I'm going to miss the FG->Infested Terran tactic. It wasn't necessarily the best, but it was a fun way to torment terran drops.
From typing this I realized something, doesn't this change screw with the effectiveness of Infested Terrans? I mean IT's only deal 8 DPS to single targets and fungal does a 9 dps (+10 to armor) splash.
People already dodge storms like they're going out of style and those are instant cast. The missile animation is slow. The second video in this thread shows marines just walking away from a fungal shot at max range (which is generally where you want your Infestors - instead of tanking on the front line). At high levels of play missed FGs will mean you lose a battle because you dumped 150 gas into a 1-shot unit (generally speaking - they're rarely at max mana).
So many people are talking about mass FGs on bio-balls and Protoss armies. Where are you getting the gas for an army plus all these infestors to cast heaps of FG on armies that will - and make no mistake about it - be going out of their way to make you miss?
Good players will have highlight reels of FG dodging, and there will be examples of "brilliantly timed" FGs as well. The only problem is the latter will be based more on luck and an educated guess of where the enemy might be moving than skill.
I don't care that it's easily dodgable, i don' want it to deal more damage, i don't want higher DPS, i want my snare. i really don't care if they just change it to a stronger ensnare from broodwar. if it did 0 damage i'd still use it, if this change goes through i have absolutely no reason to continue playing zerg, as i've dedicated almost a year of my time practicing and devising infestorzerg styles inn all situations and learning to use them instead of muta bane ling ect, so taking the option away from me means i'll go protoss. not going to spend a year learning something for the difficult to use race just to get screwed over by blizzard. just going to give up and go to the easy to learn hard to master race.
Well the missile does add some skill to the game, no question about that.
Before the change: Your opponent makes a mistake, moves his units out of position, you fungal, punish him for it. After the change: Your opponent makes a mistake, moves his units out of position, with great infestor control, and more mismicro from your opponent, you can maybe catch some of his units, and now have half the time to punish him for it.
Its definitely going to make it way harder for zergs after the patch, its a nerf that will have to be compensated by more skill. So yeah, zergs now need more skill to punish a mistake by the opponent, and the opponent who moves out of position now can use skillfull micro to avoid getting punished for it.l More potentials for displays of skill overall, less potential for zergs to win overall.
On February 28 2011 06:28 Mjolnir wrote: It's a nerf.
People already dodge storms like they're going out of style and those are instant cast. The missile animation is slow. The second video in this thread shows marines just walking away from a fungal shot at max range (which is generally where you want your Infestors - instead of tanking on the front line). At high levels of play missed FGs will mean you lose a battle because you dumped 150 gas into a 1-shot unit (generally speaking - they're rarely at max mana).
So many people are talking about mass FGs on bio-balls and Protoss armies. Where are you getting the gas for an army plus all these infestors to cast heaps of FG on armies that will - and make no mistake about it - be going out of their way to make you miss?
Good players will have highlight reels of FG dodging, and there will be examples of "brilliantly timed" FGs as well. The only problem is the latter will be based more on luck and an educated guess of where the enemy might be moving than skill.
People don't really dodge storm perfectly. There is always some damage done. The units move out of the way AFTER they've gotten hit, which doesn't apply to FG. And have you ever tried moving back an army of say 30 rines all at once? All you have to do with the infestors is target ANY of the rines that aren't on the immediate front line (which are easily still out of rine/stalker range) and you will still get a good chunk of units hit as they try to dodge. Regardless of which way they dodge, they are either going to get hit by FG or move closer to your army or slow down their retreating. I will bet you pros will barely have the apm/skill to dodge FGs in big battles. You will (should) never have your infestors just chasing units and trying to cast FG alone without an army to clean it up or deal damage. Just try it out. I dare you.
Zerg is ******. I don't understand what Blizzard is looking at. Our late game is so completely dominated. I'd gladly trade this "buff" for even a slight increase to Brood Lord's movement speed. That's the kind of buff Zerg actually needs if we want to see a Zerg ever win a GSL.
But, no Blizzard patches Battlecruiser speed instead. Which is good for TvP, I guess.
But are they not seeing how much Zerg is struggling right now? Do they not see how impossible it can be to break through late-game turtles of either race, especially Protoss? Slight changes to a Tier 2.5 unit aren't enough. The problem with Zerg is the late-game Tier 3 units they have will never do much of anything against a decent opponent, because they're slow (Brood Lords) and clumsy (Ultras) so that any bit of micro can make them worthless and completely inefficient.
Sorry, Zerg, QQ, but one of these days, Blizzard is going to have to actually address the problem.
People don't really dodge storm perfectly. There is always some damage done.
Thats because storm is instant
The units move out of the way AFTER they've gotten hit, which doesn't apply to FG.
Indeed, that doesnt apply. With fungal no longer being instant, the units get the opportunity to move as soon as they see the missile, instead of after the cast lands.
A pretty standard look: Tanks sieged up at the back, stimmed marines darting forward, ready to retreat at the first sign of danger. You will not hit them with a fungal. They will also not move closer to your army, and they will also not "be slowed down in their retreating", whatever you mean by that. They will stim, run away to the safety of the tanks, and then come back forward once the fungal has been wasted.
I will bet you pros will barely have the apm/skill to dodge FGs in big battles.
? Thats not even an argument. Yes, if its possible to dodge it, good players will dodge it, good players will stim and run, good players will split their marines.
Before I tried the new fungal, I asked someone how fast it was, and they said pretty fast (or possibly even pretty damn fast or something). I'd say that was a flawed statement. Relative to other projectiles in this game, and projectiles like EMP, this is medium to slow speed, definitely NOT FAST.
The units move out of the way AFTER they've gotten hit, which doesn't apply to FG.
Indeed, that doesnt apply. With fungal no longer being instant, the units get the opportunity to move as soon as they see the missile, instead of after the cast lands. A pretty standard look: Tanks sieged up at the back, stimmed marines darting forward, ready to retreat at the first sign of danger. You will not hit them with a fungal. They will also not move closer to your army, and they will also not "be slowed down in their retreating", whatever you mean by that. They will stim, run away to the safety of the tanks, and then come back forward once the fungal has been wasted.
Yeah I agree with this. The biggest issue I've had though is with HELLIONS. hellions are SUCH A BITCH to fungal now... OH MY GOD (especially when mixed with maraduers that will always be spread out and end up stimming and killing the infestor). Unlike many of you I've been using infestor builds for a long time, and while I can say the 30% damage and half duration is overall a bit of a buff, the projectile thing certainly does NOT help in 90% of situations.
Fungal used to be (or is still) one of the main counters to hellions, but with 1.3 they seem to want to make fungal terrible for that, and better vs marauders (although marauders can still move damn fast while stimmed), which seems a bit strange and/or reckless.
I will bet you pros will barely have the apm/skill to dodge FGs in big battles.
Thats not even an argument. Yes, if its possible to dodge it, good players will dodge it, good players will stim and run, good players will split their marines.
Aside from hellions (and maybe SMALL numbers of stimmed units), the biggest issue isn't the player's skill, but the game latency which is terribly high compared to starcraft 1. This does make it much harder for a player to dodge even if they are competent to dodge (this is quite the issue in SOTIS I find).
I think the missile part is not that bad, though i think that it could be a little faster.
I had a theory last night about the plans of blizzard:
1. Release the game with every spell in "easy mode" 2. Let players learn the uses of the spells so they get used to using them 3. 6 Month later make all spells harder to use when everyone learned what the spells can be used for 4. ??? 5. More exiting micro battles, since more spells will be used (and possibly evaded)
It sounds valid, though, well... it would mean that Blizzard planned ahead.
NERF: for all zergs below diamond (thats 89.5% of zerg players, check: http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/all/1/all) this projectile based FG will just be another 1-mistake-and-you-lose feature added. This group of zerg players has enough trouble with the race as it is. The current race distribution being 35% (master league excluded)Terran, 35% Protoss and only 20% Zerg will get even more skewed if Blizzard implements these FG changes.
BUFF: for the master zergs that have perfect micro and can afford a mistake since they do almost every other thing right.
To summarize: the already HUGE gap between zerg master league and the rest will only get bigger with the new FG changes. We really want a 40% Terran/Toss and 10% Zerg race distribution? This will eventually works its way up to master league.
NERF: for all zergs below diamond (thats 89.5% of zerg players, check: http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/all/1/all) this projectile based FG will just be another 1-mistake-and-you-lose feature added. This group of zerg players has enough trouble with the race as it is. The current race distribution being 35% (master league excluded)Terran, 35% Protoss and only 20% Zerg will get even more skewed if Blizzard implements these FG changes.
BUFF: for the master zergs that have perfect micro and can afford a mistake since they do almost every other thing right.
I disagree. At lower levels, the opponents wont be able to micro out of the fungals, and missing one or 2 of them wont be a big deal anyway, so the missile isnt going to be much of an issue, and the higher damage makes it better.
At higher levels, the opponents will micro and dodge, thus making it much worse than it currently is. And the higher your level, and more importantly, the level of your opponent, the less mistakes you can afford. If you invest 550/700 (pit + glands + 3 infestors), and all you do with that investment is make marines stim 3 times, your opponent will punish you for it really hard. At a pro level, thats most likely going to cost the game.
The more I think about it the more I think it's a nerf.
1st : Slow missile : it means that it will be dodgeable and it will be bad against fast units. I used infestors mainly against fast units, marines, flying units, helions... Against those I lose efficiency 2nd : Damage per energy doesn't change for most units. It improves against armored units but it's still laughably low compared to said unit life. 3rd: Snare time per energy is nerfed way too much. I'll have to use twice the amount of infestors to snare the same amount of time. And that's if I don't have my fungal dodged.
In short, don't fix what wasn't broken, don't change the fungal growth, it's not the issue with infestors. Change Neural Parasite which is a broken spell.
I really like FG as a missile, but since there will be much more missed shots, I think they should buff that somehow, for example make FG cost 50 energy, or infestors spawn with 75.
On February 28 2011 08:38 Leporello wrote: Zerg is ******. I don't understand what Blizzard is looking at. Our late game is so completely dominated. I'd gladly trade this "buff" for even a slight increase to Brood Lord's movement speed. That's the kind of buff Zerg actually needs if we want to see a Zerg ever win a GSL.
Actually, zerg already won the GSL. Actually twice. Actually at a time where zerg was widely considered UP.
On February 28 2011 08:38 Leporello wrote: Sorry, Zerg, QQ, but one of these days, Blizzard is going to have to actually address the problem.
Less QQ, more improve?
Zerg is deadly in hands of a gosu.
On February 28 2011 19:22 Bellygareth wrote: The more I think about it the more I think it's a nerf.
1st : Slow missile : it means that it will be dodgeable and it will be bad against fast units.
While this is true, it is not the whole story. You can cast an FG and then when the opponent moves his army to avoid the missile, already have casted another FG so that one them hits some units. With the good DPS, FG is quite nice. You should be able to get rid of lings and banelings quite fast, also marines should be softened up for the banelings. I would also like to watch what the pros are doing with this spell.
The Blizzard people are stupid. They should have increased the AoE and cast range and kept the damage/duration as it is. It's meant to delay pushes, not kill them.
edit: That is, if they were to change Fungal Growth at all.
While this is true, it is not the whole story. You can cast an FG and then when the opponent moves his army to avoid the missile, already have casted another FG so that one them hits some units.
So what, the whole story is that you can invest twice the amount, and perhaps catch the marines on the second fungal?
also marines should be softened up for the banelings.
The current fungal actually hits marines, softens them up, and holds them in place for banelings. The postpatch fungal doesnt hit marines, doesnt soften them up any more when it does hit, and doesnt hold the marines in place for long enough to hit them with banelings when it does hit.
I really do not like this change, while the dps increase is great, it's just another aoe that you can dodge with a good spread or just moving out of it (the other being banelings), when firing a missile against targets that can ~instantly change direction; the skill lies in the dodger.
On February 27 2011 07:46 plagiarisedwords wrote: Also means that infestors cannot counter fast air like mutas and phoenix which is great. Before, 1 good funghal and all my phoenixes are just stuck waiting for some hydras to come wipe them out. Now, I can dodge them and even if I fail, zerg will probably need another FG to hold my phoenix .
Due to the mobility of the Phoenix and the faster build time introduced last patch, instant 8-sec duration fungal is presently the most effective way of gaining map control against the strategy. Any reasonable phoenix-harasser will ensure they never ever get hit by the new projectile with very basic micro.
As a terran player I really don't get the "omg this is no longer a control spell." I do not recall a single situation where it was used as anything but a damage spell (and an incredibly strong one at that. Why would you need to control a marineball when you can simply recast fungal and kill them. Same goes for the vikings: If they were hit by fungal, they'd die unless all access points to the vikings were covered by tanks.
I do understand the reason you might want to control mutalisks and phoeni (lolol tastosis) though, as they're actually harassment units - but against Terran I can not see how this is not a buff (I'm fairly certain the projectile speed will be buffed, unless they want fungal to become another SHIT SEEKER MISSILE NVMLOL OVERLORD GOT AWAY.)
Against T, I'm still sinking my gas into mutas... and building even less infestors.
Against Protoss they're still mostly irrelevant as far as I can tell.
Curious to se how it'll pan out in ZvZ, the only match up where they're actually used a lot. Fungal growth is actually doing decent damage against roaches now, but losing 4 seconds of immobilisation hurts more. Besides zergings and especially mutas will have a much easier time against them.
Overall I'm pretty sure we'll find it's a nerf; but I guess only testing will tell.
In ZvT I find it hard to not see this as a buff. Instead of a delay Fungal is now damnright scary for a bioball. One misclick/micro and everything dies so they can't simply ignore it and heal through it. Simply stating that marines can run away and therefore FG is useless, sounds very strange to me. If they want to run away and lose 20% of their HP...let them, i'll be making a bigger army and the bioball will be weaker the next time they attack.
In ZvP it very much remains to be seen in FG spam could actually weaken the deathball.
On February 28 2011 03:23 SurroundSound wrote: sc2 players are the biggest whiners. This is a buff. The missile is better gameplay. Try picking up some gosu skills and timing the shot. This change will seperate the good zergies from the bad zergies.
Just like Protoss players have to time their 200/200 deathball collossus and void ray lasers to melt the Z army....right? Lots of gosu skills involved?
Ok so I like the change but I would like it more if the missile speed was faster than it is now. As it is, the missile is too easy to dodge, however I like fungal as a missile because it encourages micro. Fast reaction should be rewarded here which is why I like fungal because it's as much of a skill to dodge as it is to cast.
Also, ZvZ Mutas might become viable again through strong micro because if you can dodge the fungal you can do good damage. I'm so tired of ZvZ being all about mass Roach, at least with the missile, mutas may become viable again which I think is a good thing and actually makes the match up less bland.
As a terran player I really don't get the "omg this is no longer a control spell." I do not recall a single situation where it was used as anything but a damage spell (and an incredibly strong one at that. Why would you need to control a marineball when you can simply recast fungal and kill them. Same goes for the vikings: If they were hit by fungal, they'd die unless all access points to the vikings were covered by tanks.
I do understand the reason you might want to control mutalisks and phoeni (lolol tastosis) though, as they're actually harassment units - but against Terran I can not see how this is not a buff (I'm fairly certain the projectile speed will be buffed, unless they want fungal to become another SHIT SEEKER MISSILE NVMLOL OVERLORD GOT AWAY.)
Because it's clearly INTENDED to work as a delayer of pushes. it wouldnt make sense to have a nuke-spell and a nuke unit (banelings). What I mean is that you cast fungal once, and then it goes away, just like you only use your banelings once and they "go away". If the spell isnt working as intended, that's not a reason to just change it completely and say "well, why kill units with banelings when fungal growth does a better job at it!?". Instead the spell should get changed so that it can fill its purpose/role. Yes, the new fungal is gonna rape vikings. I think broodlord infestor is gonna reign supreme if this goes unchecked.
I think it would be a cool idea to roll the baneling and the infestor into one unit. A suicide unit that, when it hits the target, it takes damage and gets frozen in place. However I think it would be much better to change the fungal growth into the push-delayer that its intended to be and let players figure out which units should deal the damage.
On February 28 2011 08:38 Leporello wrote: Zerg is ******. I don't understand what Blizzard is looking at. Our late game is so completely dominated. I'd gladly trade this "buff" for even a slight increase to Brood Lord's movement speed. That's the kind of buff Zerg actually needs if we want to see a Zerg ever win a GSL.
Actually, zerg already won the GSL. Actually twice. Actually at a time where zerg was widely considered UP.
On February 28 2011 19:22 Bellygareth wrote: The more I think about it the more I think it's a nerf.
1st : Slow missile : it means that it will be dodgeable and it will be bad against fast units.
While this is true, it is not the whole story. You can cast an FG and then when the opponent moves his army to avoid the missile, already have casted another FG so that one them hits some units. With the good DPS, FG is quite nice. You should be able to get rid of lings and banelings quite fast, also marines should be softened up for the banelings. I would also like to watch what the pros are doing with this spell.
See my point 2 : my infestors don't have infinite energy. Missing a fungal will hurt more than ever and you will miss more of them than ever. If they make fungal 50 energy then I can agree with the change maybe.
I really don't like any of the things they're changing anyway, even the terran nerfs seems unjustified and inadequate...
When I first read the change, I was sure it was a major nerf, and I was pretty pissed.
But sitting down and thinking, I think it actually is pretty good for us overall. I just hope they speed up the missle...it's super, super slow atm. You can walk away from it with just about everything...
On February 26 2011 13:40 Antisocialmunky wrote: I don't like this really.
The amount of cost effectiveness that this will potentially give the Ling/Infestor/Ultra build may potentially make this the ONE RIGHT ANSWER in TvZ. :-\
Which means that T might have to change their play, and then Z and so on and on..
I personally think this is a huge step in the right direction for Blizzard. The only problem with it I see is that they made it dodgeable without increasing its total damage. So you're still throwing away that precious energy, but now you can completely miss the shot. The increased DPS is huge, but maybe not enough to offset the fact that it's dodgeable.
I like this a bit better.
Make it slow, like concussive, not completely immobilize, and for 8 seconds. Lower the AoE by about a quarter or so. Maybe more. Make it do ~1.5x the damage(1 shot marines/scvs). Able to cast while burrowed(ok, this might be too much, but it would make it very defiler-esque). Make it cost 50 energy per shot. Make infestors start with 40 energy. Upgrade adds 25 energy upon spawning. Makes them insta-fungal on spawn, and 2 fungals isn't far away. Take away bonus vs armored, and move it to vs light. This way the micro battle between marine/infestor could get really intense as you'd have a lot of fungal to throw around, it would decimate marines, but they can also dodge it fairly easily. While it would also hurt tanks and such, the small AoE would make it a rather inefficient use of the fungal.
On February 28 2011 21:47 EmilA wrote: As a terran player I really don't get the "omg this is no longer a control spell." I do not recall a single situation where it was used as anything but a damage spell (and an incredibly strong one at that. Why would you need to control a marineball when you can simply recast fungal and kill them. Same goes for the vikings: If they were hit by fungal, they'd die unless all access points to the vikings were covered by tanks.
I do understand the reason you might want to control mutalisks and phoeni (lolol tastosis) though, as they're actually harassment units - but against Terran I can not see how this is not a buff (I'm fairly certain the projectile speed will be buffed, unless they want fungal to become another SHIT SEEKER MISSILE NVMLOL OVERLORD GOT AWAY.)
pre PTR: Oh no my marines got fungal'd i need to sit there with my medivacs for 8 seconds draining energy + siege up my tanks or risk losing my army, then move out 12 seconds post fungal.
Post PTR: oh no an infestor is coming, stim and run toward it, and then make a 90 degree turn as soon as the projectile is launched, then resume course and kill the infestor. and then engage. (total of 4 seconds)
alternately: Oh no my marines got fungal'd, i need to sit here for 6 second to heal with my medivacs and then move out. 6 seconds total no siege needed since the marines hit can be healed or moved to the back by the time banes try to come in, or load them into the medivac.
and this is regardless of all other control parts of the spell (drops, air battle, preventing landing/sieging/blinking) prevent retreat, force sieging, prevent collosus kiting (when a collosus can outrun your spell, you have an issue). each of these uses' effectiveness are cut by more than half, because not only is the effect half, but the ability to dodge it allows to be unreliable.
On February 28 2011 19:53 [F_]aths wrote: While this is true, it is not the whole story. You can cast an FG and then when the opponent moves his army to avoid the missile, already have casted another FG so that one them hits some units. With the good DPS, FG is quite nice. You should be able to get rid of lings and banelings quite fast, also marines should be softened up for the banelings. I would also like to watch what the pros are doing with this spell.
See my point 2 : my infestors don't have infinite energy. Missing a fungal will hurt more than ever and you will miss more of them than ever. If they make fungal 50 energy then I can agree with the change maybe.
I really don't like any of the things they're changing anyway, even the terran nerfs seems unjustified and inadequate...
If we consider infestors buffed in 1.3 (22% more HP, 30% more damage to armoured versus 50% less stun duration but doubled DPS, however missile instead of instant cast) we zerg will build more infestors. More infestors = larger energy pool for infestor spells.
Why so much general whine in this thread? The new FG spell is more BW-like: Hard to execute properly, but devestating if used properly.
On February 28 2011 19:53 [F_]aths wrote: While this is true, it is not the whole story. You can cast an FG and then when the opponent moves his army to avoid the missile, already have casted another FG so that one them hits some units. With the good DPS, FG is quite nice. You should be able to get rid of lings and banelings quite fast, also marines should be softened up for the banelings. I would also like to watch what the pros are doing with this spell.
See my point 2 : my infestors don't have infinite energy. Missing a fungal will hurt more than ever and you will miss more of them than ever. If they make fungal 50 energy then I can agree with the change maybe.
I really don't like any of the things they're changing anyway, even the terran nerfs seems unjustified and inadequate...
If we consider infestors be buffed in 1.3 (22% more HP, 30% more damage to armoured versus 50% less stun duration but doubled DPS, however missile instead of instant cast) we zerg will build more infestors. More infestors = larger energy pool for infestor spells.
Why so much general whine in this thread? The new FG spell is more BW-like: Hard to execute properly, but devestating if used properly.
i don't have an issue with projectile, i have an issue with the focus on even more heavy damage units in SC2 as opposed to control units like in BW.
i really liked the start of this thread, but it started getting out of hand in the opposite direction of the PTR thread. now all of a sudden, it went from a terrible nerf to an overpowered buff. seriously, stop sensationalizing shit you guys.
if infestors are gonna be so dominant, both non-zerg races have amazing counter-caster units. ghosts in particular are good against zerg, and while i wouldn't recommend them if you didn't need EMP over just getting more tanks and the like, if infestors are so scary, you have an obvious, easy to tech to solution.
it was demonstrated in GSL this season, zenexbyun vs ogs zenio, that the terran was able to overcome a zerg going ling/infestor/ultra because of EMP from like 4-6 ghosts, and then it becomes the tvz terrans know and love where marines kill everything. it was actually one of the most epic games of the season so far imo
i see the potential in it being used as a damage snare, but i think the projectile nerf is too big. it's not as slow as a marauder shot, it's slower. somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 of a second i'd estimate, in other words, the average focused person reacts twice as fast or more than it takes fungal to land.
so in other words, fungal is supposed to counter blink, but now blink can counter fungal. fungal was supposed to hold a marine/tank push, but now you can stim kite it. i think a a lot of the benefit goes out of the window when you consider how much easier it is to whiff a fungal. i think fungal projectile time is too long, i'd like to see it travel as fast as EMP, or somewhere in between how slow it is now and EMP speed.
I'm saying if I lump 8-9 sentries into a gateway, collossus, sentry deathball, you could use repeat FGs during the course of an engagement to take them all out plus soften up units around them. This makes infestors a lot better vs any kinds of deathball.There is no way a protoss can spare 800-900 gas in the midgame so this make infestors genuinely scary wheras right now, they suck vs protoss deathballs. However, like I said in my post, it will be hard for zerg to pull off against a good protoss player given collossus or HTs so it deserves to be so powerful.
?? I dont understand these kind of posts. if you wish to repeatedly fungal a bunch of sentries, you can already do it now. they dont get any more scary compared to now. And killing off sentries during an engagement, so after all the forcefields land, is relatively useless.
What makes this scary now is that you can deal out damage over the course of a battle due to the higher DPS. Previously you had to wait so long for it to take it effect that it wasn't worth using during an engagement. Outside an engagement, collossus outrange infestors so very hard to get the spell off. However, you do see consecutive FGs from highground from pro games. It doesn't seem ridiculous to FG at the start of an engagement and at the end of the engagement. It takes 3 FGs to kill sentry but if a sentry has taken more than 8 points of damage then it is actually 2. Even if you get just 1 FG off on sentries this will burn all the shields and Protoss will be scared to engage a roach infestor army for fear of losing all his sentries to more FGs.
As for your point on sentry being useless after using up energy. The point is that if you watch a good protoss player they will economise FF really well and will definitley not use up all their energy over 1-2 engagement. Even if you get to the point where you cannot FF anymore, your sentries will probably be on 20-40 energy so you won't need to wait long before you have FF again. Killing a significant number of sentries at any point in the game is a huge deal. The tipping point of a lot of PvZ is the protoss player losing too many sentries.
It is definitely a new anti-sentry strat which seems more cost efficient than overlords filled with banelings or burning out the energy with masses of roaches which are the strats I see at the moment.
I'm saying if I lump 8-9 sentries into a gateway, collossus, sentry deathball, you could use repeat FGs during the course of an engagement to take them all out plus soften up units around them. This makes infestors a lot better vs any kinds of deathball.There is no way a protoss can spare 800-900 gas in the midgame so this make infestors genuinely scary wheras right now, they suck vs protoss deathballs. However, like I said in my post, it will be hard for zerg to pull off against a good protoss player given collossus or HTs so it deserves to be so powerful.
?? I dont understand these kind of posts. if you wish to repeatedly fungal a bunch of sentries, you can already do it now. they dont get any more scary compared to now. And killing off sentries during an engagement, so after all the forcefields land, is relatively useless.
What makes this scary now is that you can deal out damage over the course of a battle due to the higher DPS. Previously you had to wait so long for it to take it effect that it wasn't worth using during an engagement. Outside an engagement, collossus outrange infestors so very hard to get the spell off. However, you do see consecutive FGs from highground from pro games. It doesn't seem ridiculous to FG at the start of an engagement and at the end of the engagement. It takes 3 FGs to kill sentry but if a sentry has taken more than 8 points of damage then it is actually 2. Even if you get just 1 FG off on sentries this will burn all the shields and Protoss will be scared to engage a roach infestor army for fear of losing all his sentries to more FGs.
As for your point on sentry being useless after using up energy. The point is that if you watch a good protoss player they will economise FF really well and will definitley not use up all their energy over 1-2 engagement. Even if you get to the point where you cannot FF anymore, your sentries will probably be on 20-40 energy so you won't need to wait long before you have FF again. Killing a significant number of sentries at any point in the game is a huge deal. The tipping point of a lot of PvZ is the protoss player losing too many sentries.
It is definitely a new anti-sentry strat which seems more cost efficient than overlords filled with banelings or burning out the energy with masses of roaches which are the strats I see at the moment.
investing 100/150 on 1-2 50% chance of dealing 36 damage fungals
or investing 100/50 on 2 banelings with a 80% chance of dealing enough damage to kill a sentry
more cost efficient?
overlords are free, and drops are super useful as they allow baneling bombs on mineral lines, while inftesors have to burrow by cannon and stuff
I'm saying if I lump 8-9 sentries into a gateway, collossus, sentry deathball, you could use repeat FGs during the course of an engagement to take them all out plus soften up units around them. This makes infestors a lot better vs any kinds of deathball.There is no way a protoss can spare 800-900 gas in the midgame so this make infestors genuinely scary wheras right now, they suck vs protoss deathballs. However, like I said in my post, it will be hard for zerg to pull off against a good protoss player given collossus or HTs so it deserves to be so powerful.
?? I dont understand these kind of posts. if you wish to repeatedly fungal a bunch of sentries, you can already do it now. they dont get any more scary compared to now. And killing off sentries during an engagement, so after all the forcefields land, is relatively useless.
What makes this scary now is that you can deal out damage over the course of a battle due to the higher DPS. Previously you had to wait so long for it to take it effect that it wasn't worth using during an engagement. Outside an engagement, collossus outrange infestors so very hard to get the spell off. However, you do see consecutive FGs from highground from pro games. It doesn't seem ridiculous to FG at the start of an engagement and at the end of the engagement. It takes 3 FGs to kill sentry but if a sentry has taken more than 8 points of damage then it is actually 2. Even if you get just 1 FG off on sentries this will burn all the shields and Protoss will be scared to engage a roach infestor army for fear of losing all his sentries to more FGs.
As for your point on sentry being useless after using up energy. The point is that if you watch a good protoss player they will economise FF really well and will definitley not use up all their energy over 1-2 engagement. Even if you get to the point where you cannot FF anymore, your sentries will probably be on 20-40 energy so you won't need to wait long before you have FF again. Killing a significant number of sentries at any point in the game is a huge deal. The tipping point of a lot of PvZ is the protoss player losing too many sentries.
It is definitely a new anti-sentry strat which seems more cost efficient than overlords filled with banelings or burning out the energy with masses of roaches which are the strats I see at the moment.
investing 100/150 on 1-2 50% chance of dealing 36 damage fungals
or investing 100/50 on 2 banelings with a 80% chance of dealing enough damage to kill a sentry
more cost efficient?
overlords are free, and drops are super useful as they allow baneling bombs on mineral lines, while inftesors have to burrow by cannon and stuff
The thing is those percentages depend on what level of play you are talking about.
You have to be pretty retarded to miss a protoss ball completely but yes there is a question about whether or not you hit the sentries which are mosty likely the only thing worth hitting in protoss ball. Also depends on if they keep it as slow as it is now. I'm not sure it is as low as 50% especially for a pro player during an engagement.
In terms of damage, 36 AoE damage is hardly small. Storm does 80 damage but noone stands under it the whole time so a well cast storm's damage is not that different from a FG that lands (I know there are plenty of other differences but just trying to say that FG does deal significant damage).
Baneling drops are very good definitely against mineral lines but I'm talking about vs a stalker sentry collossus army. With good micro, the protoss player will shoot down your overlords with stalkers making the baneling drop a very risky and costly strategy. No way will 80% of banelings hit my sentries. Even if you do get to drop the banelings, I can position my stalkers to take the hit. You are kind of relying on the protoss player to micro badly with this strat. Just look at HuK and OgsMC in GSL. They both had zergs try this strat on them and fail miserably.
The infestors should add a cooldown to Fungal growth now IMO, while one FG is going on, another one can be applied immediately, which means if 3 if not only 1 infestor has enough energy, it can wipe out an entire force (both air and ground)
From watching the different videos, IMO I think the FG could stand to have its projectile speed quickened, for example to match the Stalker projectile speed.
Maybe a range upgrade too - 10 range? But I don't know if this fits into the zerg "philosophy" of play if it encourages zerg to use hit-and-run style of attacking.
On March 01 2011 04:28 Zeroes wrote: They should increase the range to rival tanks and colossus and make the projectile fly slower
whoa whoa I'm not sure if it should match a tank's sieged up range(13) because that would be insane, zerg siege anyone? for it to match collosi range...not sure about that one, 10 range and faster delivery seems like a good compromise.
The damage output done by infestors is now a real threat for a protoss death ball, especially if the infestor manages to do the damage outside of a major fight (to soften up the ball for example).
I think, though, that the major buff in ZvP because of this is going to be something different.
If infestor centric plays become a standard for Zerg in ZvP, I believe that the standard Collosus/Stalker/Senty/Zealot death ball will not be able to compete with a new infestor/roach/hydra/bling and optionally /corruptor army.
This means that Protosses will likely adapt by adding many templars to their unit mix, both for feedback on the infestors as well as storms which are very powerful against almost all units of Zerg.
I think that this, in combination with the remove of the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade, is going to have a couple of not immediately visible effects on the game of Protoss vs. Zerg:
Protoss players might be favouring early templar tech over collosus tech, because of the research time and mana accumulation required before a high templar is usable to it's full extend, and possibly to be safe against hypothetical new timing pushes or harass by Zerg using infestors. The minerals, and more importantly, gas required for this will keep the collossus numbers down until the late game, at which point Zerg players should already have enough income going to afford a spire in addition to your infestor pit, enabling the easier timed countering of collossi using infestors.
It could also make fights before the midgame viable for Zerg, instead of having the Zerg trying to delay everything until the Zerg has 5 gas and 3 mineral expansions and 2/2 + 2/0 upgrades running and just overwhelms the opponent.
I for one am very happy about this change. This is all theorycrafting and I have no tests to back my thoughts up, but I just have this feeling that these changes to the infestor is going to give rise to many new exciting ways of playing the game.
Notwithstanding balance related issues, to me the change spoils the 'flavour' of Fungal Growth.
With the shorter root timer and higher dps, it's now very similar to storm. Ok, it has a projectile but for all intents and purposes, it will now be used primarily for the damage as opposed to the root.
It would be nice to see a buff to infestors without losing their 'flavour'.
Just a thought as I haven't managed to see anyone post about it. Corruption increases dps to a target infected with it. Add in a fungal or two to a colossus you've corrupted and with +damage to armored it might make killing those colossus much quicker which is obviously a good thing. I'm not sure if the two would stack but even if they don't the added dps is something to consider.
On March 01 2011 05:42 theSAiNT wrote: Notwithstanding balance related issues, to me the change spoils the 'flavour' of Fungal Growth.
With the shorter root timer and higher dps, it's now very similar to storm. Ok, it has a projectile but for all intents and purposes, it will now be used primarily for the damage as opposed to the root.
It would be nice to see a buff to infestors without losing their 'flavour'.
The flavor has changed definitely. But I don't think the new flavor is all that bad. Remember the plasma bugs from Starship Troopers. Those things were awesome
Use mindgames against your opponent, rush your infestors up to make it look like you're going to fungal, etc. If you're good, you will still land it.
The skill ceiling for this spell has been raised significantly. Pushes will be less delayed, but with more damage dealt. Perhaps I can forego banelings completely in the midgame? In favor of mass fungal deathballs? I'm looking forward to seeing how this works.
And please, PLEASE mass muta against me post-patch. I'll enjoy decimating your mutas in half the time it took before... Don't think I can land it? Watch me. muahahahahaha.
Also those videos are bullshit. They're testing infestors in a vacuum vs. a small number of units. How much sense does that make? None.
Keep in mind that you will have an army with those infestors. if you're good, you will either zone their forces into your army to be immediately fungaled and consumed, or you will zone them into your infestors to be fungaled... and consumed.
On March 01 2011 06:05 MrPrezbo wrote: I don't really see what the problem is.
Use mindgames against your opponent, rush your infestors up to make it look like you're going to fungal, etc. If you're good, you will still land it.
You could do this pre-patch except it wasn't a matter of are they paying attention to dodge it.
The skill ceiling for this spell has been raised significantly. Pushes will be less delayed, but with more damage dealt.
The exact same damage is dealt, it's just dealt quicker.
And please, PLEASE mass muta against me post-patch. I'll enjoy decimating your mutas in half the time it took before... Don't think I can land it? Watch me. muahahahahaha.
It's worse agianst mutas now as it holds them for your hydras to hit for half the time, so unless you countered mutas with only fungal growth this won't half the time it takes to kill the mutas it will just cost double the energy to hold them there.
On March 01 2011 06:09 MrPrezbo wrote: Keep in mind that you will have an army with those infestors. if you're good, you will either zone their forces into your army to be immediately fungaled and consumed, or you will zone them into your infestors to be fungaled... and consumed.
The whole point of infestors is so that you can lock their army down so that your army can reach it without being kited not to deal AoE damage, sacrificing your army to drive them into fungals doesn't help as you won't have the units to mop up.
And please, PLEASE mass muta against me post-patch. I'll enjoy decimating your mutas in half the time it took before... Don't think I can land it? Watch me. muahahahahaha.
It's worse agianst mutas now as it holds them for your hydras to hit for half the time, so unless you countered mutas with only fungal growth this won't half the time it takes to kill the mutas it will just cost double the energy to hold them there.
you're semi-right about the damage being the same, except it does now deal more damage to armored. Even the 30% increase is significant.
I may need to build an extra infestor or 2 vs mutas, but since I actually deal damage faster with fungal, the mutas will die faster. If you're good, you will need about 8 seconds for reinforcements to arrive (queens, hydras) to take down the mutas. And although I will have spent 2 fungals instead of one, I will have done 72 damage in 8 seconds to those oh-so-fragile mutalisks. Then mine ears shall revel in that squish-popping sound of dying mutalisks--like a symphony....
On March 01 2011 06:05 MrPrezbo wrote: I don't really see what the problem is.
Use mindgames against your opponent, rush your infestors up to make it look like you're going to fungal, etc. If you're good, you will still land it.
The skill ceiling for this spell has been raised significantly. Pushes will be less delayed, but with more damage dealt. Perhaps I can forego banelings completely in the midgame? In favor of mass fungal deathballs? I'm looking forward to seeing how this works.
And please, PLEASE mass muta against me post-patch. I'll enjoy decimating your mutas in half the time it took before... Don't think I can land it? Watch me. muahahahahaha.
How is it everyone says it deals more damage?
Against Armored? Sure, but 12 damage against a armored unit is mostly irrelevant.
"But you can fungal twice in the same time!!!1ONE!!"
No shit, sherlock. And you need 2 infestors for it too. And since even if you do fungal him twice, his push is still coming 8 seconds earlier than before! You can almost burrow a spine crawler or hatch lings in this time. The difference is HUGE.
Give me 8s NO DAMAGE fungals any day over 4s damaging fungals. Except MAYBE against Colossus/Void Ray. MAYBE.
If it's gonna be a projectile, and a slow one, it should at least target a unit, rather than an area. Require a little bit of skill from the other player (split, rather than simply run away).
The whole point of infestors is so that you can lock their army down so that your army can reach it without being kited not to deal AoE damage, sacrificing your army to drive them into fungals doesn't help as you won't have the units to mop up.
See, you're wrong about that though. Why can't you guys understand that the infestor still does the same amount of damage, except it deals it FASTER? Fungal was totally insignificant before damage-wise. And with the old fungal, if I am already engaged with an army, I don't really need to fungal it, do I? But now, that's when they extra DPS will come to bear.
On March 01 2011 06:05 MrPrezbo wrote: I don't really see what the problem is.
Use mindgames against your opponent, rush your infestors up to make it look like you're going to fungal, etc. If you're good, you will still land it.
You could do this pre-patch except it wasn't a matter of are they paying attention to dodge it.
The skill ceiling for this spell has been raised significantly. Pushes will be less delayed, but with more damage dealt.
The exact same damage is dealt, it's just dealt quicker.
And please, PLEASE mass muta against me post-patch. I'll enjoy decimating your mutas in half the time it took before... Don't think I can land it? Watch me. muahahahahaha.
It's worse agianst mutas now as it holds them for your hydras to hit for half the time, so unless you countered mutas with only fungal growth this won't half the time it takes to kill the mutas it will just cost double the energy to hold them there.
you're semi-right about the damage being the same, except it does now deal more damage to armored. Even the 30% increase is significant.
I may need to build an extra infestor or 2 vs mutas, but since I actually deal damage faster with fungal, the mutas will die faster. If you're good, you will need about 8 seconds for reinforcements to arrive (queens, hydras) to take down the mutas. And although I will have spent 2 fungals instead of one, I will have done 72 damage in 8 seconds to those oh-so-fragile mutalisks. Then mine ears shall revel in that squish-popping sound of dying mutalisks--like a symphony....
Guess what, it doesn't really matter that it took 8s or 1min to damage 36 damage for fungal. BECAUSE THEY CAN'T FUCKING AVOID IT.
And most air units that matter in harassment are light anyway (except Medvacs). So no change in damage, too. And it will take 4 fungals to kill a medvac, that is 300 Energy. Whereas BEFORE, it took 1 fungal + 3 IT's, so 150 energy total.
And that is something I don't think anyone discussed here, really. This change to fungal is a HUGE NERF to Infested Terrans. When fungaling + IT's, they had 3s of damage. And they have over 9DPS, so each one did 27 damage, more damage per energy than the fungal itself.
Now your It's will hatch 1s too late. Unless you invest double the resources on double the infestors.
And Terran bitch about the Raven's Turrets. They are 2x2, allowing for blocking paths. Are instant. Last for 6 times more. Have better range, armor... And don't tell me Infested Terrans can move, because they barely leave their places in the 30s lifespan they have.
On March 01 2011 06:05 MrPrezbo wrote: I don't really see what the problem is.
Use mindgames against your opponent, rush your infestors up to make it look like you're going to fungal, etc. If you're good, you will still land it.
The skill ceiling for this spell has been raised significantly. Pushes will be less delayed, but with more damage dealt. Perhaps I can forego banelings completely in the midgame? In favor of mass fungal deathballs? I'm looking forward to seeing how this works.
And please, PLEASE mass muta against me post-patch. I'll enjoy decimating your mutas in half the time it took before... Don't think I can land it? Watch me. muahahahahaha.
How is it everyone says it deals more damage?
Against Armored? Sure, but 12 damage against a armored unit is mostly irrelevant.
"But you can fungal twice in the same time!!!1ONE!!"
No shit, sherlock. And you need 2 infestors for it too. And since even if you do fungal him twice, his push is still coming 8 seconds earlier than before! You can almost burrow a spine crawler or hatch lings in this time. The difference is HUGE.
Give me 8s NO DAMAGE fungals any day over 4s damaging fungals. Except MAYBE against Colossus/Void Ray. MAYBE.
It's DPS we are talking about, plain and simple.
let's stretch our minds for a moment here, given x of time, and given infinite infestors, these new infestors deal twice the amount of damage the old ones did. Seconds matter in this game, as your lament over the root-time attests, but in my opinion, the faster DPS more than balances that out.
It was pretty frustrating when medivacs out-dps'ed the current incarnation of fungal growth, wasn't it? Do you really need EIGHT seconds for speedlings to come and hit some fungaled marines?
Well, maybe if you're across the map.
The bottom line is that infestors will be more feared now. You can delay that push for 24 seconds (with the current fungal version) having done a total net of 0 damage due to medivacs. Or, you could be a bit more prepared, and smash the shit of an entire army faster than you ever thought possible. I personally see more value in the latter.
And, did you ever consider (lets use a terran army for example) that when you chain the new fungal to delay a push, the new fungal may delay it just as much or MORE, as the terran would likely elect to hold back on his own attack to heal up/repair his units?
This is how it works now: If you want fungal do delay his army as long as possible then infestors were better before the patch. If you want fungal to deal damage, then it's better after the aptch, because its dps is greater now and you will be dealing more damage over the time. If you want to fungal his units for a certain timespan, then it depends on the amout of infestors you got which one is better (pre or post patch). If you think the main purpose of fungal growth is to delay his army to get an army yourself, then yes, it has been nerfed. If you think its main purpse is softening up his army and stunning them is just a nice bonus, then it has been buffed.
Buffs that dont need to be argued about are the bonus damage to armor, which is actually insane. FG used to deal 36 damage to armored units prepatch, postpatch it will deal 48 damge to armored units in half the time. And of course the infestor got a health buff which makes it survive 3 tank blasts.
An obvious nerf is that its no longer an autocast spell, unfortunately the projectile is travelling way too slowly. A huge nerf in my opinion which should be removed.
If they didn't remove the autocast function then there would be no sense about arguing whether it's a buff or not, but they did. I don't think it's a buff, nor it's a nerf. It's just different right now, but the old infestor fit into the zerg army better. Sure, the new dps allows the infestor to out-dps the healing-rate of medivacs, but that's not worth not hitting anything.
On March 01 2011 06:05 MrPrezbo wrote: I don't really see what the problem is.
Use mindgames against your opponent, rush your infestors up to make it look like you're going to fungal, etc. If you're good, you will still land it.
You could do this pre-patch except it wasn't a matter of are they paying attention to dodge it.
The skill ceiling for this spell has been raised significantly. Pushes will be less delayed, but with more damage dealt.
The exact same damage is dealt, it's just dealt quicker.
And please, PLEASE mass muta against me post-patch. I'll enjoy decimating your mutas in half the time it took before... Don't think I can land it? Watch me. muahahahahaha.
It's worse agianst mutas now as it holds them for your hydras to hit for half the time, so unless you countered mutas with only fungal growth this won't half the time it takes to kill the mutas it will just cost double the energy to hold them there.
you're semi-right about the damage being the same, except it does now deal more damage to armored. Even the 30% increase is significant.
I may need to build an extra infestor or 2 vs mutas, but since I actually deal damage faster with fungal, the mutas will die faster. If you're good, you will need about 8 seconds for reinforcements to arrive (queens, hydras) to take down the mutas. And although I will have spent 2 fungals instead of one, I will have done 72 damage in 8 seconds to those oh-so-fragile mutalisks. Then mine ears shall revel in that squish-popping sound of dying mutalisks--like a symphony....
Guess what, it doesn't really matter that it took 8s or 1min to damage 36 damage for fungal. BECAUSE THEY CAN'T FUCKING AVOID IT.
And most air units that matter in harassment are light anyway (except Medvacs). So no change in damage, too. And it will take 4 fungals to kill a medvac, that is 300 Energy. Whereas BEFORE, it took 1 fungal + 3 IT's, so 150 energy total.
And that is something I don't think anyone discussed here, really. This change to fungal is a HUGE NERF to Infested Terrans. When fungaling + IT's, they had 3s of damage. And they have over 9DPS, so each one did 27 damage, more damage per energy than the fungal itself.
Now your It's will hatch 1s too late. Unless you invest double the resources on double the infestors.
And Terran bitch about the Raven's Turrets. They are 2x2, allowing for blocking paths. Are instant. Last for 6 times more. Have better range, armor... And don't tell me Infested Terrans can move, because they barely leave their places in the 30s lifespan they have.
Army comps will change, you can bet on that. Strictly speaking TvZ, this change to fungal growth will almost certainly relieve the gas-sink that is banelings. The burst DPS necessitates more Infestors, but it also lowers the requirements on baneling count as Infestors move to a more damage-dealer role.
And why are people acting like the root is gone? It's not. Is it significantly shorter? Yes. Will it still make a huge difference? You bet your ass.
Fungaled Medvacs can still drop it's troops, right?
This change will make it possible for a Terran to load marines into a medvac when he sees a infestor or the fungal launching and then drop then again, fungal-free. And kill the infestor.
It may actually make it a LOT worse to deal with medvacs. Even worse than I'd though.
And again, I need to reiterate how critical this is for Infested Terrans. They may as well remove IT's and Neural and make Infestors a one-spell pony.
On March 01 2011 06:37 Jotoco wrote: It just struck me.
Fungaled Medvacs can still drop it's troops, right?
This change will make it possible for a Terran to load marines into a medvac when he sees a infestor or the fungal launching and then drop then again, fungal-free. And kill the infestor.
It may actually make it a LOT worse to deal with medvacs. Even worse than I'd though.
And again, I need to reiterate how critical this is for Infested Terrans. They may as well remove IT's and Neural and make Infestors a one-spell pony.
There are two sides to every theory crafting coin, Jotoco. Sure, that situation could happen, if you're bad... or you could park you infestor slightly out of range and type "grrrr" into the chat. I know for a fact fungaled marines CAN'T be picked up by the medivac, so the onus is on him just as much as you to not fuck up. And ANY sort of delay, when it comes to drop harass, incredibly favors the defender.
After playing a few games against terran (only took 3 games to get to grand master 13th lol) and protoss and utilizing the infestor I have to honestly say that I am in love with the changes...yes it will be more difficult to control against air units...but lets be honest...in general zerg's problem has always been on the ground.
With the new changes you can cost effectively utilize the infestro to destroy mid-game 6 warpgate pressure. I was able to catch the protoss ball with one of my 3 infestors...and with three consecutive fungle growths killed his entire army and picked off the reinforcements with my lings. The fact that zerg now has a spell that actually causes significant damage is huge! All it takes is for zerg to be able to cost effective destroy 1 major push by an opponent to get a huge econ advantage.
From a simple game play perspective I like the change because it introduces more micro on both sides. It's an advantage to zerg because with good micro we can do more with it, than we could be fore. However, a good player can also dodge which makes it more interesting to watch.
In terms of ZVZ it also adds variety because it will be even more valuable in roach wars...but won't totally shut down air like it used to...sooooooo....muta will become viable again...and who wouldn't appreciate a little variety in a mirror match? I might have to start practicing the Catz build again!
let's stretch our minds for a moment here, given x of time, and given infinite infestors, these new infestors deal twice the amount of damage the old ones did.
Yeah, thats awesome.
Unfortunately, in situations where you dont actually have infinite infestors, being able to deal twice the damage with twice the amount isnt really as huge a buff as people make it out to be. Dod you for example know, that you could invest twice the amount in banelings, and get twice the amount of damage from them too? Isnt that incredibly awesome in a situation with infinite banelings? Truly it is. But in actual games, where you dont have infinite money, being able to do twice the damage for twice the cost isnt really all that amazing.
It was pretty frustrating when medivacs out-dps'ed the current incarnation of fungal growth, wasn't it? Do you really need EIGHT seconds for speedlings to come and hit some fungaled marines?
Not really, since the main purpose of the current fungal incarnation is to hold them in place so your banelings can connect. And yes, you need an actual 8 seconds, to for example run up your ramp with hydras to get into your main and dps some harassing air units, or to kill a medivac with infested terrans, and so on.
From a simple game play perspective I like the change because it introduces more micro on both sides. It's an advantage to zerg because with good micro we can do more with it, than we could be fore. However, a good player can also dodge which makes it more interesting to watch.
It does introduce more micro on both sides, and it should be more interesting to watch, sure. But you cant do more with it with good micro than you could before. Instead, with good micro, you might be able to do the same with it as you do now.
On March 01 2011 06:56 morimacil wrote: It does introduce more micro on both sides, and it should be more interesting to watch, sure. But you cant do more with it with good micro than you could before. Instead, with good micro, you might be able to do the same with it as you do now.
Almost the definition of a nerf.
If you have to struggle to do the same you did before, and can be negated in the process, then it is a nerf, not a buff.
I think Blizzard should REMOVE neural parasite. And give infestors 2 spells:
1 - FUNGAL GROWTH: Deals damage as is and DOESN'T stop units(75energy);
2 - ENSNARE: DOES NOT deal damage and stop units for 10s(50 energy).
let's stretch our minds for a moment here, given x of time, and given infinite infestors, these new infestors deal twice the amount of damage the old ones did.
Yeah, thats awesome.
Unfortunately, in situations where you dont actually have infinite infestors, being able to deal twice the damage with twice the amount isnt really as huge a buff as people make it out to be. Dod you for example know, that you could invest twice the amount in banelings, and get twice the amount of damage from them too? Isnt that incredibly awesome in a situation with infinite banelings? Truly it is. But in actual games, where you dont have infinite money, being able to do twice the damage for twice the cost isnt really all that amazing.
It was pretty frustrating when medivacs out-dps'ed the current incarnation of fungal growth, wasn't it? Do you really need EIGHT seconds for speedlings to come and hit some fungaled marines?
Not really, since the main purpose of the current fungal incarnation is to hold them in place so your banelings can connect. And yes, you need an actual 8 seconds, to for example run up your ramp with hydras to get into your main and dps some harassing air units, or to kill a medivac with infested terrans, and so on.
From a simple game play perspective I like the change because it introduces more micro on both sides. It's an advantage to zerg because with good micro we can do more with it, than we could be fore. However, a good player can also dodge which makes it more interesting to watch.
It does introduce more micro on both sides, and it should be more interesting to watch, sure. But you cant do more with it with good micro than you could before. Instead, with good micro, you might be able to do the same with it as you do now.
You're pretty good at being smarmy, but not so good at understanding the point I was trying to make. Why even bother having a discussion on TL? Seems like everybody around here knows everything already...
As I said in another post, this will relieve the baneling count in TvZ, allowing you to get those extra infestors. And while banelings are one of my favorite units, the fact that they have to die in order to kill something else can lead to many situations where either you A: fuck up and lose a bunch of banes for nothing, or 2: lose a war of economic attrition to 50m/0g marines. A meatier infestor that deals more dps to marines--purely at the cost of energy--is a welcome improvement in the meta-game of this matchup that was, frankly, sorely needed. Imagine sniping a ball of 25 marines with 3 infestors--Whereas in prior patches, you would have to use: more fungals, and a shit-ton of banes to take them out. Those are resources and troops SAVED right there. Huge improvement IMO.
The way fungal works now, if I understand correctly, is that it doesn't even matter if medivacs are there to heal the marines. The new fungal DPS is simply TOO HIGH for them to be saved. I, for one, look forward to having a hit-squad of four infestors kill 25 marines and 4 medivacs for essentially nothing. Afterwards I will send them home and let them recharge. They'll even be cheered home by all the banelings and speedlings I didn't even need to use!
On March 01 2011 06:56 morimacil wrote: It does introduce more micro on both sides, and it should be more interesting to watch, sure. But you cant do more with it with good micro than you could before. Instead, with good micro, you might be able to do the same with it as you do now.
Almost the definition of a nerf.
If you have to struggle to do the same you did before, and can be negated in the process, then it is a nerf, not a buff.
I think Blizzard should REMOVE neural parasite. And give infestors 2 spells:
1 - FUNGAL GROWTH: Deals damage as is and DOESN'T stop units(75energy);
2 - ENSNARE: DOES NOT deal damage and stop units for 10s(50 energy).
Guess which one I would be using more?
i'd say F fungal and use only ensnare every match.
On February 26 2011 15:17 MrBitter wrote: I still hesitate to call this a buff...
The ability to out DPS medivacs is really the biggest plus here.
Obviously its an ok change for ZvT, but ZvT wasn't the broken matchup to begin with. We still can't engage a Toss ball, and its still impossible to take a game off a competent Toss that makes it past 15 minutes.
I'll agree here. infestors may see slightly more use in ZvT, but the purpose of FG in ZvP was to lock down blink stalkers out of range of your broodlords, not to do damage. For people saying that FG will be used to soften up deathballs before the fight starts, it is only a slight increase in damage, and only to armoured.
I do not forsee any significant changes to ZvP from this patch, except in the meta sense that people will be trying to fit infestors into their play again, so we'll see various vods or replays from people claiming they are OP or UP in the next few weeks...
You're pretty good at being smarmy, but not so good at understanding the point I was trying to make.
It's really funny to see this at the start of a post that orders points A and 2.
On March 01 2011 08:02 MrPrezbo wrote: Imagine sniping a ball of 25 marines with 3 infestors--Whereas in prior patches, you would have to use: more fungals, and a shit-ton of banes to take them out. Those are resources and troops SAVED right there. Huge improvement IMO.
No, because fungal's total damage dealt hasn't changed (this post only worries about unarmored units like said marines). If you get just TWO fungals onto a group of marines, they will die, before or after the patch's change. By the way, this is easier now than it will be in 1.3. Banelings are used because they're a fast cleanup, a killing blow, not because fungal doesn't do any damage right now.
Damage and DPS are different. DPS was increase, not damage dealt. With this spell, which immobilizes, it's hard to argue that DPS is important at all in an open battle, because you can just cast and step out of range. Making the instant effect into a slow projectile increases the likelihood that you miss or are dodged, and decreases the chances that you'll be able to pure harass (cast and run).
Excuse me guys. The lock down is still an effect. You should be surround with lings and banes in the new FG's duration anyways during 1.2. If you arent, then you need to practice your micro a little more. Its quite sad that ppl are whining over the duration. i actually like the buff to the damage because it doesnt change my gameplay. I surround quickly
I think it is certainly a buff against terran, because that's some sweet DPS do be doing to rines, especially since medivacs can't outheal them. Unfortunately, it is worse against stalkers. It's a nice plus against zerg though, since the extra DPS against roaches yet again helps.
Still, I can't help but feel fungal is in this limbo between BW's Ensnare and Plague...and nowhere near as close as plague. Or darkswarm for that matter. Plague had wat, 25 DPS over 12 seconds? That's freaking enormous looking back at it.
I think the issue is more that you fungal helps delay pushes. The 8 seconds can buy you enough time to have another production cycle finish. The damage fungal dealt has always been considered a bonus, its real value was in the ability to stall out encroaching forces. Also, this new missile attack can be dodge all day by blink stalkers. The blob moves so slow.
I concur with most that this is a buff in all matchups (in ZvZ the most IMO vs roachs). I find it funny you guys would take ensare over fungal... how the fuck you gonna deal with a muta/roach/marine/anything ball with ensnares? with your other units that would trump them anyways sans infestors? no thanks.
A couple of points I think some of you might have missed: Infestors are no longer 1 hit by snipe the missle effect allows you to land a hit on the BACK of a charging terran bioball without pre positioning. fungal is now much weaker against cloaked units in general.
On March 01 2011 10:38 Zyban wrote: I concur with most that this is a buff in all matchups (in ZvZ the most IMO vs roachs). I find it funny you guys would take ensare over fungal... how the fuck you gonna deal with a muta/roach/marine/anything ball with ensnares?
It's not a nerf to the spell itself; it's a nerf to the playstyle that is inherent to getting infestors in the first place. Blizzard is literally trying to take away the very synergy that made infestors a viable option in ZvT.
Infestors are used as a strategy with great creep spread in order to stall pushes and such. This allows you to slam out an appropriate amount of units to deal with scary pushes because you've been droning instead of producing units. Secondly, the longer duration on Fungal Growth was your way of dealing with delayed mutalisks. You needed to be able to kill off dropships by fungaling and infested terraning dropships. With the duration halved, there's literally no way to deal with drops if you go Infestor, making Mutalisk a necessity. Remember the change to fungal not hitting air? People on the PTR could basically blindly counter Mutalisk without ever having to know anything else was coming because anyone with decent multitask could punish anyone who dared not get mutalisks.
This shouldn't go through; the duration on the snare is what the spell was intended for. IT WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO DO DAMAGE. It was supposed to keep blink stalkers, stim marines etc. still so you could attempt to get a surround on the units that can actually manage to outrun speed Zerglings and stall pushes, not to be some retarded gimped version of Psi Storm.
Can people who don't actually know how to play infestor zerg stop posting about how this is actually a buff to the play style?
Can people who don't actually know how to play infestor zerg stop posting about how this is actually a buff to the play style?
It's nerfing the old style of Infestor play but creating a shift to a very different style of Infestor play. A style of play that some are arguing is more beneficial to Zerg overall. And I would argue against it being a gimped version of Psi Storm... this ain't no storm you can march your units out of.
On my PTR games so far, it feels like the old infestor was much better against early drops. And the old infestor was fantastic against helions, which made infestor / ling viable for me. The new infestor just doesn't help against these early on, so it's more helpful to open mutas after lair.
While the new infestor is better against protoss, and might actually show up in ZvP's, I don't think it's worth loosing early infestors in ZvT, even if the DPS changes make it a good support unit to add into the mix later on.
On March 01 2011 10:38 Zyban wrote: I find it funny you guys would take ensare over fungal... how the fuck you gonna deal with a muta/roach/marine/anything ball with ensnares? with your other units that would trump them anyways sans infestors? no thanks.
By moving in units that, otherwise, would be too slow to catch then? Or units that outrange then and they can't do shit about it because they are ensnared? I don't know, there are so many options!
SC2 Zerg unit design is best described as incoherent. Patch changes to help zerg are often confusing because of the mess in zerg units and tech path. My hope is with blizzard spending 6-12 months with zerg and HotS they will make some more significant changes to the way zerg functions. The common description of zerg as "underdeveloped" is both true and ironic (given zergs evolutionary lore).
If this change can give zerg a viable alternative to banes for killing marines I'll be happy. FG does have a radius of 2 which is larger then storms 1.5. It could end up doing fairly significant damage to unit groups, which would be cool.
On March 01 2011 08:02 MrPrezbo wrote: Imagine sniping a ball of 25 marines with 3 infestors--Whereas in prior patches, you would have to use: more fungals, and a shit-ton of banes to take them out. Those are resources and troops SAVED right there. Huge improvement IMO.
No, because fungal's total damage dealt hasn't changed (this post only worries about unarmored units like said marines). If you get just TWO fungals onto a group of marines, they will die, before or after the patch's change. By the way, this is easier now than it will be in 1.3. Banelings are used because they're a fast cleanup, a killing blow, not because fungal doesn't do any damage right now.
Damage and DPS are different. DPS was increase, not damage dealt. With this spell, which immobilizes, it's hard to argue that DPS is important at all in an open battle, because you can just cast and step out of range. Making the instant effect into a slow projectile increases the likelihood that you miss or are dodged, and decreases the chances that you'll be able to pure harass (cast and run).
You ever hear of medivacs? Fungal now outdamages the heal. That's a huge point that you somehow missed.
On March 01 2011 10:56 Farkinator wrote: IT WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO DO DAMAGE.
I think the ensnare ability loses it's effectiveness as we move into the lategame. It would be very effective in special cases like the first Terran Tank push, if you had your infestors positioned very well, however as the game advances, the Terran death ball will get bigger, and so will the Protoss death ball, if you don't have the units out in Time, your just plain fucked, since you wont be able to cast FG and run away without taking considerable losses. At this point, doubling the DPS is fucking HUGE! The dodgeable missle is a nice balance though, hell I actually like micro requirements.
Consider this as well: My intuition based on your tone and inclination tells me that you do not posses the infestor prowess that you speak of. Are you so sure that ensnare was not overpowered in the hands of a gosu?
not sure why it was taken down but I posted thread about 1.3 PTR infestor build I've been working on against toss. Not going remake the whole thing but after playing quite a few games against toss I can say that without a doubt it's amazing! The infestor buff is significant and makes it a viable, if not needed response to nearly any terran/toss ball. The only thing it's not great against as discussed at lenth on this thread is air which can be more difficult to micro.
Trust me when I say this....if this buff gets through you're going to see some insanely powerfull builds centered around infestor play that just plain dominates until terran/toss figure out how to stop it.
On March 01 2011 15:26 Xirroh wrote: SC2 Zerg unit design is best described as incoherent. Patch changes to help zerg are often confusing because of the mess in zerg units and tech path. My hope is with blizzard spending 6-12 months with zerg and HotS they will make some more significant changes to the way zerg functions. The common description of zerg as "underdeveloped" is both true and ironic (given zergs evolutionary lore).
If this change can give zerg a viable alternative to banes for killing marines I'll be happy. FG does have a radius of 2 which is larger then storms 1.5. It could end up doing fairly significant damage to unit groups, which would be cool.
This combined with its usefulness vs toss deathball makes the new FG much better than the old one. I don't understand how players can argue that the old one was great for stalling and delaying attacks. Even if it successfully filled this role it still only functioned as delaying the inevitable loss. Before FG buff zerg has no answer to the marine/tank army composition, banelings who are supposed to kill marines get outkited so easily (stimmed marines move almost twice as fast offcreep) while siege tanks blow them up 10 at a time.
This change is great as it's finally giving zerg a way to deal with marines and toss deathball.
This might impact ZvZ quite a bit now. The reduced duration will really hurt their role. Infestors were really used as a support unit to hold roaches in bad positions so they cant achieve concaves. I'm unsure of the effect of using mass fungals for damage but I don't think it will be viable in comparison to just a roach hydra ball.
On March 01 2011 17:37 wonderwall wrote: This might impact ZvZ quite a bit now. The reduced duration will really hurt their role. Infestors were really used as a support unit to hold roaches in bad positions so they cant achieve concaves. I'm unsure of the effect of using mass fungals for damage but I don't think it will be viable in comparison to just a roach hydra ball.
I have been playing around with the infestor alot on the ptr server and this is what I think:
It is a nerf against air period. (Muta, phoenix, drops, vikings). It is a nerf agaisnt mobile units. (Hellion, Marine/Marauder, Stalker).
On February 28 2011 08:38 Leporello wrote: Zerg is ******. I don't understand what Blizzard is looking at. Our late game is so completely dominated. I'd gladly trade this "buff" for even a slight increase to Brood Lord's movement speed. That's the kind of buff Zerg actually needs if we want to see a Zerg ever win a GSL.
Actually, zerg already won the GSL. Actually twice. Actually at a time where zerg was widely considered UP.
Worst argument ever. Have you not heard as to WHY zergs won the first 2 GSLs? Have you perhaps heard about the fact of low numbers of zergs making it to the higher rounds of GSLs? Have you perhaps heard about zergs winning low numbers of tournaments overall? Maybe you should consider those things instead of saying the outright winners of just 2 tournaments instead of looking at the big picture.
People dont understand that it's half a storm (+ - depending on light/armored), that has larger radius (same cast range) and immobilize... When you hit it's guaranteed damage. So yeah, how can it be bad?
I think it's a huge buff and is a needed component for zerg mid/lategame. And can people stop complain about feedback. It has the same range as fungal, and them templar is VERY fast units... It's a dance that makes it both entertaining and plays a skillrole.
You need to play them differently and have different use for them. Calling out how their "role" is now nerfed is just wrong. Their role have changed! You need new units to back them up when used for certain defense etc.
It will atleast be interesting to see how this fares after a while if it goes through (which I hope) and players have adapted. We still see Zergs having major issues to adapt to various toss combination and goes with the same unit mix and same bad timing on them and call imba when they get rolled by a tailored composition... Not saying it's easy for zerg, but comon...
I think people are overreacting to this. While kiting may become an option against FG i don't think 8 seconds was too important for the roles that were really important. Like surrounding or running banelings into marines and stuff. Yes surely it will be harder to FG helions but think how hard it is to position infestors now. This will find an interesting place in use of infestor. I still think it is more important for infestor use to enable use of FG and/or neural parasite. I don't understand why it is OP to use these things while burrowed then ghost using EMP vs. protoss. Even if it will be bad these acts of changing game constantly brings new mechanics, new builds and keeps it from being same over and over again imo.
I just look at how much people QQ sometimes and say why do you play if it is SO bad. Just quit playing if you don't have fun and it will be better =D
I don't understand how people could possibly argue that this is a buff in any way except maybe against slow armored units.
Fungal used to be a guaranteed 36 damage, now it is 36 damage that can miss. You had no reason to engage while that damage was being dealt if you were using it for the purpose of softening the army before, so the rate at which the damage is dealt is completely irrelevant against everything except zerglings and units being healed by medivacs. If you were using it to have an advantageous engagement it is now worse in every possible way. I honestly can't believe that there are pages and pages of people who are ecstatic about how fungaling things to kill them is suddenly viable now that it does the same damage as before except against armored (where it still takes 5-6 fungals to kill anything at all), but is harder to chain.
On March 01 2011 23:50 RoKetha wrote: I don't understand how people could possibly argue that this is a buff in any way except maybe against slow armored units.
Fungal used to be a guaranteed 36 damage, now it is 36 damage that can miss. You had no reason to engage while that damage was being dealt if you were using it for the purpose of softening the army before, so the rate at which the damage is dealt is completely irrelevant against everything except zerglings and units being healed by medivacs. If you were using it to have an advantageous engagement it is now worse in every possible way. I honestly can't believe that there are pages and pages of people who are ecstatic about how fungaling things to kill them is suddenly viable now that it does the same damage as before except against armored (where it still takes 5-6 fungals to kill anything at all), but is harder to chain.
If you observe every post saying it is a buff has a little SCV to the left of the name...
On March 01 2011 23:50 RoKetha wrote: I don't understand how people could possibly argue that this is a buff in any way except maybe against slow armored units.
Fungal used to be a guaranteed 36 damage, now it is 36 damage that can miss.
This. Not sure if someone already posted this (don't have time to review all 18 pages in this thread) but I thought the new missile mechanic for the fungal was a bad idea, seeing this video made me feel worse about the infestor. Haven't personally tried this yet though, so I haven't confirmed if this is really as bad as it looks.
On March 01 2011 23:50 RoKetha wrote: I don't understand how people could possibly argue that this is a buff in any way except maybe against slow armored units.
Fungal used to be a guaranteed 36 damage, now it is 36 damage that can miss. You had no reason to engage while that damage was being dealt if you were using it for the purpose of softening the army before, so the rate at which the damage is dealt is completely irrelevant against everything except zerglings and units being healed by medivacs. If you were using it to have an advantageous engagement it is now worse in every possible way. I honestly can't believe that there are pages and pages of people who are ecstatic about how fungaling things to kill them is suddenly viable now that it does the same damage as before except against armored (where it still takes 5-6 fungals to kill anything at all), but is harder to chain.
If you observe every post saying it is a buff has a little SCV to the left of the name...
Maybe you should look at your own observation skills.
On March 01 2011 23:50 RoKetha wrote: I don't understand how people could possibly argue that this is a buff in any way except maybe against slow armored units.
Fungal used to be a guaranteed 36 damage, now it is 36 damage that can miss.
This. Not sure if someone already posted this (don't have time to review all 18 pages in this thread) but I thought the new missile mechanic for the fungal was a bad idea, seeing this video made me feel worse about the infestor. Haven't personally tried this yet though, so I haven't confirmed if this is really as bad as it looks.
But that's the worst type of example you can possibly find. It's almost like putting one colossi in the open and have it getting destroyed by 4 roaches and say it's a useless unit.
On March 01 2011 22:21 Kyuki wrote: People dont understand that it's half a storm (+ - depending on light/armored), that has larger radius (same cast range) and immobilize... When you hit it's guaranteed damage. So yeah, how can it be bad?
I think it's a huge buff and is a needed component for zerg mid/lategame.
Its already a half storm with a slightly larger radius and an immobilize, that does guaranteed damage when you hit. The difference is, after the patch, it will still be a half storm, but with a shorter immobilize, and instead of being 100% guaranteed to do 36 damage, it will have something like 50-100% chance to do damage, depending on how good your opponent is, and the speed of the units you are trying to hit. postpatch, it wont be bad. It will just be worse than now.
On March 01 2011 22:21 Kyuki wrote: People dont understand that it's half a storm (+ - depending on light/armored), that has larger radius (same cast range) and immobilize... When you hit it's guaranteed damage. So yeah, how can it be bad?
I think it's a huge buff and is a needed component for zerg mid/lategame.
Its already a half storm with a slightly larger radius and an immobilize, that does guaranteed damage when you hit. The difference is, after the patch, it will still be a half storm, but with a shorter immobilize, and instead of being 100% guaranteed to do 36 damage, it will have something like 50-100% chance to do damage, depending on how good your opponent is, and the speed of the units you are trying to hit. postpatch, it wont be bad. It will just be worse than now.
How can you neglect the fact that the DPS was uped by 100%? Having a guaranteed 36dmg over 8 seconds is just the lockdown that is worth anything. Terran heals through it with medivacs and it deals way too little dmg over time vs toss. With a 4 second duration you can bring down forces alot quicker and use the infestor more as a damagedealer than how it is used today. As I said before, people look at its role today and can't see its uses in a different role.
On March 01 2011 22:21 Kyuki wrote: People dont understand that it's half a storm (+ - depending on light/armored), that has larger radius (same cast range) and immobilize... When you hit it's guaranteed damage. So yeah, how can it be bad?
I think it's a huge buff and is a needed component for zerg mid/lategame.
Its already a half storm with a slightly larger radius and an immobilize, that does guaranteed damage when you hit. The difference is, after the patch, it will still be a half storm, but with a shorter immobilize, and instead of being 100% guaranteed to do 36 damage, it will have something like 50-100% chance to do damage, depending on how good your opponent is, and the speed of the units you are trying to hit. postpatch, it wont be bad. It will just be worse than now.
How can you neglect the fact that the DPS was uped by 100%? Having a guaranteed 36dmg over 8 seconds is just the lockdown that is worth anything. Terran heals through it with medivacs and it deals way too little dmg over time vs toss. With a 4 second duration you can bring down forces alot quicker and use the infestor more as a damagedealer than how it is used today. As I said before, people look at its role today and can't see its uses in a different role.
I will give you an ability that does 10 damage in HALF A SECOND (but still costs 75 energy). OMG THE DPS IS INSANE!!!ONE11!!
On March 02 2011 01:28 Jotoco wrote: I will give you an ability that does 10 damage in HALF A SECOND (but still costs 75 energy). OMG THE DPS IS INSANE!!!ONE11!!
The infester fungal missile is a nerf/buff depending on how you use your infester. Some are going to love it and others are going to hate it. For me it is going to be a MASSIVE buff. I'm okay with my creep spreed and pretty good with my overlord scouting. The biggest issue I always had with fungal growth is that I could see the enemy advancing and I had to advance my infester toward their army to try and instant cast fungal. I always wanted a missile attack, because I can time the missile to shoot and retreat the infester safety well using my creep to spot.
To me it seems you would only miss with the infester under two circumstance. 1) You just plan old miss (practice makes perfect). 2) The enemy knows where your infester are standing and uses either blink or spread to negate the missile. Never an issue for me since my infesters are always either burrowed or behind my army.
Besides do you ever see stalkers blink dodge emp? You can see the missile coming, but not where it is going to land. . .that alone makes it pretty hard to dodge.
I think zerg are just going to need to be more stealthy with infesters so that the enemy sees the infester at the last second and is unable to blink/dodge/split in time.
On March 01 2011 22:21 Kyuki wrote: People dont understand that it's half a storm (+ - depending on light/armored), that has larger radius (same cast range) and immobilize... When you hit it's guaranteed damage. So yeah, how can it be bad?
I think it's a huge buff and is a needed component for zerg mid/lategame.
Its already a half storm with a slightly larger radius and an immobilize, that does guaranteed damage when you hit. The difference is, after the patch, it will still be a half storm, but with a shorter immobilize, and instead of being 100% guaranteed to do 36 damage, it will have something like 50-100% chance to do damage, depending on how good your opponent is, and the speed of the units you are trying to hit. postpatch, it wont be bad. It will just be worse than now.
How can you neglect the fact that the DPS was uped by 100%? Having a guaranteed 36dmg over 8 seconds is just the lockdown that is worth anything. Terran heals through it with medivacs and it deals way too little dmg over time vs toss. With a 4 second duration you can bring down forces alot quicker and use the infestor more as a damagedealer than how it is used today. As I said before, people look at its role today and can't see its uses in a different role.
Well its based really on how it works together with your army, and your opponent's army.
Having a guaranteed 36 damage over 8 seconds is awesome. If there are no medivacs, you can kill just with the fungal anyway. And if the terran is investing heavily in medivacs, he has less tanks. Meanwhile, you can still clean up with banelings easily during the 8 second lockdown.
with a 4 second duration, but not actually guaranteed to hit, well I guess its nice if your opponent overinvested in medivacs, and you dont have banelings, and you also have a lot of infestors, and the fungals actually land, yes. But thats a lot of maybe. With the guaranteed 8 second lockdown, if you have the banelings, and the 1 infestor, thats it, you know for sure you can kill off the marines, instead of hoping you can.
The role of damage dealer for the infestor, while it in theory sounds nice, hasnt really been buffed all that much. You want to use 6 infestors to lock down a toss deathball, and kill it? You can already do that now. being able to do it faster is nice, but not gamebreaking.
On the other hand, not being able to stop drops, air harass, keep vikings away from your broodlords, keep infantry in range of ultras and banelings, keep stalkers from blinking for 8 seconds, and so on, that can all be gamebreaking. and thats all gone.
To me it seems you would only miss with the infester under two circumstance. 1) You just plan old miss (practice makes perfect). 2) The enemy knows where your infester are standing and uses either blink or spread to negate the missile. Never an issue for me since my infesters are always either burrowed or behind my army.
3) The enemy doesnt see your infestors until they come in range or unburrow, but sees the missile, and blinks/stims/just moves away
On March 01 2011 10:56 Farkinator wrote: It's not a nerf to the spell itself; it's a nerf to the playstyle that is inherent to getting infestors in the first place. Blizzard is literally trying to take away the very synergy that made infestors a viable option in ZvT.
Infestors are used as a strategy with great creep spread in order to stall pushes and such. This allows you to slam out an appropriate amount of units to deal with scary pushes because you've been droning instead of producing units. Secondly, the longer duration on Fungal Growth was your way of dealing with delayed mutalisks. You needed to be able to kill off dropships by fungaling and infested terraning dropships. With the duration halved, there's literally no way to deal with drops if you go Infestor, making Mutalisk a necessity. Remember the change to fungal not hitting air? People on the PTR could basically blindly counter Mutalisk without ever having to know anything else was coming because anyone with decent multitask could punish anyone who dared not get mutalisks.
This shouldn't go through; the duration on the snare is what the spell was intended for. IT WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO DO DAMAGE. It was supposed to keep blink stalkers, stim marines etc. still so you could attempt to get a surround on the units that can actually manage to outrun speed Zerglings and stall pushes, not to be some retarded gimped version of Psi Storm.
Can people who don't actually know how to play infestor zerg stop posting about how this is actually a buff to the play style?
Wow, so we can't cast another fungal after the first one wears off now?
On February 26 2011 12:26 Mattsville wrote: All I can say is: HOLY COW!
Nice man, just awesome. I've recently been using Infestors again after trying out Mr. Bitters vs Terran build and I'd forgotten how awesome they could be.
If these changes make it through PTR that's awesome.
Only pity is the decrease from 8 seconds to 4 seconds for the stun. Was nice to be able to hold off a much larger army for 30 seconds until you could morph more units in...
On March 01 2011 23:50 RoKetha wrote: I don't understand how people could possibly argue that this is a buff in any way except maybe against slow armored units.
Fungal used to be a guaranteed 36 damage, now it is 36 damage that can miss.
This. Not sure if someone already posted this (don't have time to review all 18 pages in this thread) but I thought the new missile mechanic for the fungal was a bad idea, seeing this video made me feel worse about the infestor. Haven't personally tried this yet though, so I haven't confirmed if this is really as bad as it looks.
This fungal growth is going to screw with the way that I play zerg v zerg. First problem is that mutas will be able to dodge the fungal growth more so then stalkers, and second is, since the stun time is way less, it means that my hydras probably won't be able to get to the mutas in time. I predict zerg v zerg will be more about getting to mutas in the mid game than about getting to hydras.
On March 01 2011 22:21 Kyuki wrote: People dont understand that it's half a storm (+ - depending on light/armored), that has larger radius (same cast range) and immobilize... When you hit it's guaranteed damage. So yeah, how can it be bad?
I think it's a huge buff and is a needed component for zerg mid/lategame.
Its already a half storm with a slightly larger radius and an immobilize, that does guaranteed damage when you hit. The difference is, after the patch, it will still be a half storm, but with a shorter immobilize, and instead of being 100% guaranteed to do 36 damage, it will have something like 50-100% chance to do damage, depending on how good your opponent is, and the speed of the units you are trying to hit. postpatch, it wont be bad. It will just be worse than now.
How can you neglect the fact that the DPS was uped by 100%? Having a guaranteed 36dmg over 8 seconds is just the lockdown that is worth anything. Terran heals through it with medivacs and it deals way too little dmg over time vs toss. With a 4 second duration you can bring down forces alot quicker and use the infestor more as a damagedealer than how it is used today. As I said before, people look at its role today and can't see its uses in a different role.
Well its based really on how it works together with your army, and your opponent's army.
Having a guaranteed 36 damage over 8 seconds is awesome. If there are no medivacs, you can kill just with the fungal anyway. And if the terran is investing heavily in medivacs, he has less tanks. Meanwhile, you can still clean up with banelings easily during the 8 second lockdown.
with a 4 second duration, but not actually guaranteed to hit, well I guess its nice if your opponent overinvested in medivacs, and you dont have banelings, and you also have a lot of infestors, and the fungals actually land, yes. But thats a lot of maybe. With the guaranteed 8 second lockdown, if you have the banelings, and the 1 infestor, thats it, you know for sure you can kill off the marines, instead of hoping you can.
The role of damage dealer for the infestor, while it in theory sounds nice, hasnt really been buffed all that much. You want to use 6 infestors to lock down a toss deathball, and kill it? You can already do that now. being able to do it faster is nice, but not gamebreaking.
On the other hand, not being able to stop drops, air harass, keep vikings away from your broodlords, keep infantry in range of ultras and banelings, keep stalkers from blinking for 8 seconds, and so on, that can all be gamebreaking. and thats all gone.
Your first sentence is the only thing that is actually worth noting and is the sole reason why I'm saying that you cannot look at it as a nerf unless you picture the infestor doing what yo do with it currently. If you use it as a damage dealer you'd most likely use something else for what you used the infestor previously, and if it was to delay pushes you can now instead just use them to crush pushes. I seriously think that infestor ling will be devastating to marine/tank style mixes after the patch, and you wont really need the banelings that much, but instead corporate them into earlygame defense and other latergame tactics instead of solely rely on them to hold pushes.
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As some poster above me said, it's going to be viewed as a buff or a nerf depending on how you want to use the infestor, and I think waay to many put on their designer hats and think that the unit is meant to do X, and suddenly when it does X abit worse but Y much better it's plain bad. That's only true if you use it to do X still. Why not doing more of Y when it was buffed in that direction?
Whatever, it's always going to be crying. Let's just wait and see.
On March 01 2011 10:38 Zyban wrote: I concur with most that this is a buff in all matchups (in ZvZ the most IMO vs roachs). I find it funny you guys would take ensare over fungal... how the fuck you gonna deal with a muta/roach/marine/anything ball with ensnares?
Banelings.
Banelings only kill one of those (Marines) wheras fungal owns all three.
In my opinion, this was an epic buff to the infestor in general. Any nay sayers are just angry at the aspect that you cant fungal+ogogogo with ling baneling vs terran anymore. But the thing is that now you can just fungal+fungal DEAD marines.
To those who think its a buff, could you maybe try to come up with a situation where its better than before? People say it will be great for killing marines outright, for example, but I beg to differ. In a situation with no medivacs, and where you catch the terran unsieged, with marines unstimmed, its the same as now, just takes a little longer to kill everything, but still everything dies. In a situation with sieged tanks, and microed stimmed marines running around, they can dodge it, so its worse. If you do catch them, again, its the same as now, they just take a little less time to die, but still die in 2 fungals. In a situation where he does have medivacs, and you invested in a lot of infestors, then, yes, if you catch the marines with a fungal, the higher dps is going to allow you to kill them. But if instead you invested in infestors and baneling, instead of infestor and more infestors, youd still be able to kill them. However, if he does have medivacs for his marines, he can start dropping all over the place, and it becomes really hard to deal with, since you need 2 infestors per drop, instead of a single one. So it seems like the current version is still better there.
In situatons where you are being harassed by cloaked banshees, current version is better than the new. Hellions? current version better than the new.
Even in a situation like a roach battle, it doesnt seem that great. Roaches are not fast enough to actually dodge it in most situations, true, but having 8 seconds to set up a better concave was the main strength there, now you will have less time to do that. And if you try to invest all of your gas in infestors to kill roaches that way, you will be low on roaches of your own, and certainly wont be able to afford any hydras or mutas. So chances are, you fungal one part of his army 5 times in a row, maybe it dies, maybe he just burrows and shrugs it off, and the rest of his bigger army still kills you anyway.
On March 02 2011 02:06 morimacil wrote: Simply having twice the amount of infestors to do the same thing that was done by a single one previously isnt always an option.
Please use some common sense.
You're not doing the same amount, you're doing twice as much damage, +30% more to armored.
Marauder: 125 health - 3 consistant fungals Roach: 145 health - 4 consistant fungals Stalker: 160 health - 5 consistant fungals
I think you forgot the part where Medivacs no longer heals the marinemaruader army allowing zerglings to have a fighting chance at killing them after a surround.
On March 02 2011 02:06 morimacil wrote: Simply having twice the amount of infestors to do the same thing that was done by a single one previously isnt always an option.
Please use some common sense.
You're not doing the same amount, you're doing twice as much damage, +30% more to armored.
We can do this all day, my point stands.
You're doing exactly the same damage for the same energy. +30% to armored. We can't do this all day and your point doesn't stand. Please use common sense.
On March 02 2011 02:06 morimacil wrote: Simply having twice the amount of infestors to do the same thing that was done by a single one previously isnt always an option.
Please use some common sense.
You're not doing the same amount, you're doing twice as much damage, +30% more to armored.
We can do this all day, my point stands.
You're doing exactly the same damage for the same energy. +30% to armored. We can't do this all day and your point doesn't stand. Please use common sense.
Maybe you should've looked at what he quoted before you posted...
1 Infestor today does 36dmg over 8 seconds and holds the units in place 2 Infestors tomorrow does 66 dmg over 8 seconds and holds the units in place That is twice the amount of damage + 30%.
No one was talking about energy/resource/whatever, but time and what is done.
I predict we'll see a lot of flanking attacks from zerg, muta/roach/bane/speedling/infestor, maybe w/o banelings... And using infestors as templars for the damage. I'm going to use it if the fungal patch gets through.
The fact is it's a change, and you can see it as a nerf nor a buff.
I, as an infestor user in ZvT, don't know what to think about that change. I am a bit sceptical cause i love how fungal works actually and it could be harder to face blue flamme for exemple. But i won't throw it away before i tested it seriously, cause it can also be very nice and deadly, and if that make infestor more playable in ZvP, well, i'm happy too cause it's the best caster in the game.
Don't scream when changes happen ( eventually ), you'll look exactly like all those teenage nerds on Bliz forums.
Now that's it's a missile, does that mean Mutas will become more viable in ZvZ? Now the Mutalisks will be able to dodge the fungal easier so not all of them immediately die to one or two infestors. That seemed kind of OP imo, that you can instantly lose all your Mutas like that. Obviously infestors will still be good against Mutas though.
1 Infestor today does 36dmg over 8 seconds and holds the units in place 2 Infestors tomorrow does 66 dmg over 8 seconds and holds the units in place That is twice the amount of damage + 30%.
Well no one is contesting the fact that 2 infestors do twice the amount of damage compared to a single infestor (assuming their fungals actually hit)
2 siege tanks also do more damage than 1 siege tank, and 2 marines also do twice the damage. In fact, they also do twcie the dps.
But you still need twice as many infestors for that, which you cant really afford. And if you face for example an incoming drop, then you need twice the amount of infestors, but end up doing exactly the same thing as before (killing a loaded medivac)
I still fail to see any situation where having 1 infestor after the patch, is superior to having 1 infestor now. I can see tons of situations though where having 1 infestor now is better than having 1 infestor post patch, such as when dealing with a drop, when getting a better concave or surround, when catching marines to hit them with banelings, when holding phoenixes or mutas or whatever till the hydras arrive, and so on. There are a lot of situations where having 2 infestors after the patch is better than having 1 infestor now (as long as the fungals arent dodged). But really, those situations matter little, since they fail to take into account that infestors still cost the same as before. If infestors suddenly spawned in pairs for the same cost, like zerglings, then the comparison between 1 infestor now, and 2 infestors post patch would actually make a lot of sense.
There are a lot of situations where having 2 infestors after the patch is better than having 1 infestor now (as long as the fungals arent dodged). But really, those situations matter little, since they fail to take into account that infestors still cost the same as before. If infestors suddenly spawned in pairs for the same cost, like zerglings, then the comparison between 1 infestor now, and 2 infestors post patch would actually make a lot of sense.
What? They're saying 2 infestors now is better than 2 infestors before because they do damage faster, and in RTS, time matters. Killing a batch of marines in 8 seconds vs 16 seconds is significant. So if you have multiple infestors, this is a buff.
On March 02 2011 02:06 morimacil wrote: Simply having twice the amount of infestors to do the same thing that was done by a single one previously isnt always an option.
Please use some common sense.
You're not doing the same amount, you're doing twice as much damage, +30% more to armored.
We can do this all day, my point stands.
You're doing exactly the same damage for the same energy. +30% to armored. We can't do this all day and your point doesn't stand. Please use common sense.
Infestor play is going to increase, argument over. You lost.
it is really really hard to lend an FG! This is a huge nerf to lategame T3 Zerg. when you need FG to "successfully" lock down units so brood/Ultra can deal dmg...
Can people saying this is a nerf please show replays of them losing while using FG (or games of them winning against players using FG)? Can people saying this is a buff please show replays of them winning while using FG (or games of them losing against players using FG)?
On March 02 2011 05:16 Archerofaiur wrote: Can people saying this is a nerf please show replays of them losing while using FG (or games of them winning against players using FG)?
Hop on PTR. Play infestor / ling with upgrades. Try to stop helions or drops, or any sort of air harass with infestor / queen. Try the same on live. Realize it's harder to open infestor after lair, and that the unit is now a great support unit, but not a unit you can build an army comp around. It just forces ZvT into muta's even harder than it is now, although infestors are a better late addition.
I just don't understand why zerg need a spell that can miss that easily.
It doesn't add anything to ZvZ either. Now it's just more important to scout for a spire, and if they make one, just timing attack with roaches and win. Adding variety to midgame ZvZ is good, but adding mutas while taking away the ability for someone who doesn't go muta just goes back to scouting to avoid rock paper scissors.
On March 02 2011 05:16 Archerofaiur wrote: Can people saying this is a nerf please show replays of them losing while using FG (or games of them winning against players using FG)?
Hop on PTR.
Would but im studying for finals And also if you post a replay it will 100% make what you just said have more weight. Rather than just another +nerf post.
There are a lot of situations where having 2 infestors after the patch is better than having 1 infestor now (as long as the fungals arent dodged). But really, those situations matter little, since they fail to take into account that infestors still cost the same as before. If infestors suddenly spawned in pairs for the same cost, like zerglings, then the comparison between 1 infestor now, and 2 infestors post patch would actually make a lot of sense.
What? They're saying 2 infestors now is better than 2 infestors before because they do damage faster, and in RTS, time matters. Killing a batch of marines in 8 seconds vs 16 seconds is significant. So if you have multiple infestors, this is a buff.
That's the thing though. Time does NOT matter with the old version of the spell when you are using it for the damage, because the units can't move to fight you. They are completely helpless and will deal 0 damage during the spell duration unless you choose to engage (or you're hitting something with over 9 range). Now, if you're already engaging, there's some benefit, but the benefit of disabling his ability to move away from banelings or kite your units is almost certainly better.
1 Infestor today does 36dmg over 8 seconds and holds the units in place 2 Infestors tomorrow does 66 dmg over 8 seconds and holds the units in place That is twice the amount of damage + 30%.
Well no one is contesting the fact that 2 infestors do twice the amount of damage compared to a single infestor (assuming their fungals actually hit)
2 siege tanks also do more damage than 1 siege tank, and 2 marines also do twice the damage. In fact, they also do twcie the dps.
But you still need twice as many infestors for that, which you cant really afford. And if you face for example an incoming drop, then you need twice the amount of infestors, but end up doing exactly the same thing as before (killing a loaded medivac)
I still fail to see any situation where having 1 infestor after the patch, is superior to having 1 infestor now. I can see tons of situations though where having 1 infestor now is better than having 1 infestor post patch, such as when dealing with a drop, when getting a better concave or surround, when catching marines to hit them with banelings, when holding phoenixes or mutas or whatever till the hydras arrive, and so on. There are a lot of situations where having 2 infestors after the patch is better than having 1 infestor now (as long as the fungals arent dodged). But really, those situations matter little, since they fail to take into account that infestors still cost the same as before. If infestors suddenly spawned in pairs for the same cost, like zerglings, then the comparison between 1 infestor now, and 2 infestors post patch would actually make a lot of sense.
Your siege tank/marine analogy is just false... Ofc you do more DPS with two units compared to one. The difference with current fungal vs new fungal is that their DPS is NOT the same. Let me break it down for you with your own example;
1 tank does 15 DPS (random number). We add a second tank and they do 30 DPS together. That's twice as much dps adding 1 more unit. Logic acomplished. 1 current Fungal does 4.5 DPS. 1 PTR Fungal does 9 DPS (atleast) 12~ DPS (at most). That's twice+ as much DPS adding no units. Logic acomplished. DPS is buffed.
So what does this mean? If we get more infestors and use more Fungals we do more damage with them over a shorter period of time. Yay!
1 Infestor with PTR Fungal does Twice the DPS of 1 Infestor with current Fungal
You loose utility and gain DPS, yet you can maintain utility if you increase your infestor numbers, and why wouldnt you since they do more dps to begin with? And maybe you should find, if not other, then More means to deal with the issues you dealt with with the current Fungal utility.
You can't see situations where 1 infestor would be better with PTR fungal, but maybe you could with 4 more infestors in a big battle? I've been saying this all the time, but you don't seem to grasp it. If you insist on using the infestor the way you use it today, then sure the lost utility will be viewed as a nerf, but if you look at the new options that it provides you it should be viewed as a buff instead. Can't you see the possibilities?
"But how should I deal with X now?!" Why not mix in both fungals and maybe something else? Map awareness and more speedlings (since you probably devote more gas to infestor than baneling you will have more lings around to stop drops and other harasment with. 4 seconds is a long time for the the fastest units on creep to catch up if you're prepared, and if you're not and missed it on your minimap you shouldnt have a free 8 seconds to catch up to it anyways imho.
I also think that making it a skillshot is good for balance design in general. Instant fungal is imho abit too strong vs air. It almost nullifies air harass completely and you can't do anything on the opposite side of the fungal to avoid it other than praying. It's not like you can split your marines perfectly when banelings roll in or run out of storm and take half the damage and things that make the game dynamic. But that's just a design opinion of mine - I think this change is pretty well thought through and I hope people can make good use of it.
There are a lot of situations where having 2 infestors after the patch is better than having 1 infestor now (as long as the fungals arent dodged). But really, those situations matter little, since they fail to take into account that infestors still cost the same as before. If infestors suddenly spawned in pairs for the same cost, like zerglings, then the comparison between 1 infestor now, and 2 infestors post patch would actually make a lot of sense.
What? They're saying 2 infestors now is better than 2 infestors before because they do damage faster, and in RTS, time matters. Killing a batch of marines in 8 seconds vs 16 seconds is significant. So if you have multiple infestors, this is a buff.
That's the thing though. Time does NOT matter with the old version of the spell when you are using it for the damage, because the units can't move to fight you. They are completely helpless and will deal 0 damage during the spell duration unless you choose to engage (or you're hitting something with over 9 range). Now, if you're already engaging, there's some benefit, but the benefit of disabling his ability to move away from banelings or kite your units is almost certainly better.
You say that as if the movement immobilization does not happen. 4 seconds is still alot of time in a battle where banelings do its work. One thing to consider is that banelings die. Always. What if your 20 banes were lings and half survived but you still made the same damage because you had stronger fungals? This would open up the possibility for faster counter attacks for example.
Time ALWAYS matter in a RTS one way or the other. When it comes to engaging armies and kill eachother, more DPS will help. When it comes to delaying a push, more time on the immobilization will help. So how would you use the New fungal?
It seems like infestors are having an identity crisis again with this patch. The purpose of fungal growth was for support: holding enemy units in place for baneling/ultra aoe or flanking/surrounding. Positioning was always critical for zerg, and this is what infestors were for.
The duration and armor bonus changes feels like they're going to become offensive spellcasters rather than utility.
You loose utility and gain DPS, yet you can maintain utility if you increase your infestor numbers, and why wouldnt you since they do more dps to begin with?
You can't see situations where 1 infestor would be better with PTR fungal, but maybe you could with 4 more infestors in a big battle?
So what does this mean? If we get more infestors and use more Fungals we do more damage with them over a shorter period of time. Yay!
This is all nice, but it still all relies on somehow magically having more infestors.
I know that having extra units is good. 2 units > 1 unit. 10 infestors > 1 infestor.
You loose utility and gain DPS, yet you can maintain utility if you increase your infestor numbers, and why wouldnt you since they do more dps to begin with?
So what does this mean? If we get more infestors and use more Fungals we do more damage with them over a shorter period of time. Yay!
This is all nice, but it still all relies on somehow magically having more infestors.
I know that having extra units is good. 2 units > 1 unit. 10 infestors > 1 infestor.
Infestors are still not free.
So, basically, infestors are a lot better in larger numbers now than they were before, but worse alone or in pairs.
And it's not that 10 infestors > 1 infestor. It's that 10 infestors in the PTR are better than 10 infestors on live, but 1 infestor in the PTR is worse than 1 infestor on live. In other words, they scale better with numbers.
That's actually okay, infestors are a bit gas heavy, but zergling/infestor or roach/infestor is still a fairly gas lean combo, definitely easier on the gas than ling/baneling/muta.
I know there will be a ton of comments saying that it don't show anything, that this player is bad and probably out macro the even worst opponent bla bla bla. But honestly i don't care, this is a freaking massacre, i love that, and most off all, this vids is fun. :D
In a more serious note, the author of the vids add this :
A collection of replays displaying the new *and improved* 1.3 infestor, and all the carnage it brings.
I also included a few key non-infestor moments that led up to the situations shown in some of the games, so that you know how we reached that point.
All opponents are diamond/master level. The change is new so opponent dodging (and my own FGing) is not yet at the level that it should/will be. I look forward to making another vod once this micro has come into play!
What I've found in the process of making this:
Mutas/Phoenix are VERY hard to stop with infestors alone.
Bio play is now a joke once midgame is reached, and is relatively easy to hit as long as you're cutting off escape paths with your army.
Gateway compositions also melt relatively fast, the zealot actually being the toughest unit to kill with the new FG, sentries and non-blink stalkers however just roll over and die.
Tanks are much easier to NP due to the added health, even when your damage sponges have already died.
8 stalker 6 sentries 19 zealot vs 8 infestors 100+ lings 5 mutas vs 5 infestors 37 roaches vs 19 roaches 7 queens 15 infestors some terran kiting maxed out zerg vs mined out terran at 130 food 180 food zerg vs 93 food terran 144 food zerg vs 128 food toss 160 food zerg vs 130 food toss 140 food zerg vs 100 food terran
It seems to be mostly showcasing a zerg being vastly ahead, and securing a win, incidentally using infestors to do so. The first battle and the roach battle were really the only ones that were even close, and even then, the zerg was still pretty far ahead. (and in the toss battle, the toss completely failed at using forcefields.)
That video is fun (the music is funny) but holy Christ... how often does someone have like 15 infestors in a close game?
Maybe with this change it's actually worth getting that many... who knows. I'd love to see a video posted by someone who is proficient at dodging them.
On March 02 2011 10:35 morimacil wrote: 8 stalker 6 sentries 19 zealot vs 8 infestors 100+ lings 5 mutas vs 5 infestors 37 roaches vs 19 roaches 7 queens 15 infestors some terran kiting maxed out zerg vs mined out terran at 130 food 180 food zerg vs 93 food terran 144 food zerg vs 128 food toss 160 food zerg vs 130 food toss 140 food zerg vs 100 food terran
It seems to be mostly showcasing a zerg being vastly ahead, and securing a win, incidentally using infestors to do so. The first battle and the roach battle were really the only ones that were even close, and even then, the zerg was still pretty far ahead. (and in the toss battle, the toss completely failed at using forcefields.)
Zerg should always be that ahead in supply. If they are at equal supply then Zerg is behind. Thats how it works since BW.
On March 02 2011 10:35 morimacil wrote: 8 stalker 6 sentries 19 zealot vs 8 infestors 100+ lings 5 mutas vs 5 infestors 37 roaches vs 19 roaches 7 queens 15 infestors some terran kiting maxed out zerg vs mined out terran at 130 food 180 food zerg vs 93 food terran 144 food zerg vs 128 food toss 160 food zerg vs 130 food toss 140 food zerg vs 100 food terran
It seems to be mostly showcasing a zerg being vastly ahead, and securing a win, incidentally using infestors to do so. The first battle and the roach battle were really the only ones that were even close, and even then, the zerg was still pretty far ahead. (and in the toss battle, the toss completely failed at using forcefields.)
This pretty well sums up why the video is not good evidence, in just about all situations the Z is in a commanding lead versus inferior players, he could have pretty much used any unit combination at that point and rolled his opponents.
I mean just look at the second game, terran is one one base pulling SCVs 12 minutes in game, then it fast forwards to zerg steamrolling him off four base like somehow it was the infestors that won the game.
On March 02 2011 13:29 arc.exe wrote: i feel this is a horrid idea, its a nerf not a buff
Whats Changed:
Projectile instead of instant-This doesn't change anything. Unless your a noob who can't micro More Damage Faster Damage More HP
*Facepalm*. Its a frikkin buff people.
As for people arguing the validity of the Video stating the Zerg was ahead. Watch some progames. Zerg is always ahead in supply for the most part of the game. If Zerg is not ahead in supply then he is behind even if they are on equal supply. Thats how Zerg works. Thats why they have that killer Econ.
Surely you can't argue that the infestor is nerfed from 1.3 ... This buff is extremely evident by the YouTube video on this page if not by just reading the facts in the OP or indeed the patch notes.
Gotta love that 80's comeback music in the video, you forgot "Live To Win".
On March 02 2011 13:48 GinDo wrote: Projectile instead of instant-This doesn't change anything. Unless your a noob who can't micro
As everyone who's been reading this thread is sure to know, turning insta-cast into a projectile is a HUGE change.
Also, you forgot to mention that it only holds units in place for 1/2 the time, which completely changes the primary function of the unit.
Exactly. In ZvT the infestor has two uses:
--Fungal marines so they die --Fungal other shit so you can eat it with lings
The second one is highly, highly dependent on the duration.
The smaller duration makes it so that Medivacs can't heal the marines at the same rate s they are losin HP= Dead Marines. Plus most people are accustomed to use more then 1 fungal so the duration does't really matter. Not to mention that Marines can;t run away from Speedlings. so you lings will still reach the marines regardless of if they are stuck or not.
On March 02 2011 13:29 arc.exe wrote: i feel this is a horrid idea, its a nerf not a buff
As for people arguing the validity of the Video stating the Zerg was ahead. Watch some progames. Zerg is always ahead in supply for the most part of the game. If Zerg is not ahead in supply then he is behind even if they are on equal supply. Thats how Zerg works. Thats why they have that killer Econ.
If you can honestly watch the video and think for a second those players were on the same level as the zerg in the video, you are clueless.
Hmm... The ensnare was traded off for damage. Not sure if want.
Better against terran for sure, since this will facerape bioballs. Against zerg is pretty decent as well for roach v roach. Though whether gas is better spent on hydras versus infestor is hard to say. Against protoss, fungal is more useful for keeping blink stalkers or colossi in place for surround. This means you'll need more infestors for the same duration since you need more spells thrown for the same duration.
About the new infestor ball.... how would you explain a rolling acid ball hitting air units? Especially if it's air units on impassable terrain?
On March 02 2011 13:48 GinDo wrote: Projectile instead of instant-This doesn't change anything. Unless your a noob who can't micro
As everyone who's been reading this thread is sure to know, turning insta-cast into a projectile is a HUGE change.
Also, you forgot to mention that it only holds units in place for 1/2 the time, which completely changes the primary function of the unit.
Exactly. In ZvT the infestor has two uses:
--Fungal marines so they die --Fungal other shit so you can eat it with lings
The second one is highly, highly dependent on the duration.
The smaller duration makes it so that Medivacs can't heal the marines at the same rate s they are losin HP= Dead Marines. Plus most people are accustomed to use more then 1 fungal so the duration does't really matter. Not to mention that Marines can;t run away from Speedlings. so you lings will still reach the marines regardless of if they are stuck or not.
Spamming in this thread doesn't make you right! You neither play zerg nor have you used infestors on the ptr, yet you believe your nonsensical theorycrafting to be true (obnoxious much?)
Infestor can not slow down pushs!! infestors cannot be used late game to stop vikings from attacking broodlords. Infestors cannot be used to stop dropship FGs are hard to land on moving target from far range (let alone stimmed / hellions / blink stalkers). FGs are hard to land on air units. FGs cannot be used for detection.
This is after 50 or so games on PTR of trying to mass infestors... The only situation where FG will be used way more often is in ZvZ roach wars. Other then that, the projectile/duration is a huge nerf to the infestor "role" and zerg's metagame.
On March 01 2011 23:50 RoKetha wrote: I don't understand how people could possibly argue that this is a buff in any way except maybe against slow armored units.
Fungal used to be a guaranteed 36 damage, now it is 36 damage that can miss.
This. Not sure if someone already posted this (don't have time to review all 18 pages in this thread) but I thought the new missile mechanic for the fungal was a bad idea, seeing this video made me feel worse about the infestor. Haven't personally tried this yet though, so I haven't confirmed if this is really as bad as it looks.
But that's the worst type of example you can possibly find. It's almost like putting one colossi in the open and have it getting destroyed by 4 roaches and say it's a useless unit.
I agree that this wasn't the best example for the new infestor but it still kinda shows what you can't do with the infestor anymore (cast FG where units are and know for sure it's going to hit). Like a lot of posters have said, it has its pros and cons, but it will definitely change how the infestor is used (which imo is good, especially for me, since I need more practice using them anyway). I just wish it's the weekend already so I can finally hop on the PTR and see the changes for myself.
And just for the record, I agree that the changes are more buff than nerf.
Ofc the projectile change is a nerf, but instant cast fungal denied Air FAR too well. If you have infestors around, you CANNOT use your Phoenix, or your mutas AT ALL for its purpose. It's one thing that you dance around storm, poke around thors and take some damage etc, but beeing locked down for 8 seconds and not beeing able to do anything about the actual cast besides praying that the opponent misses is a design flaw that is beeing changed and in turn they had to make the spell stronger DPS wise so it wouldn be useless. And now it's more useful in other situations instead.
It's a give and take situation. Better players will be better at using fungal. Hurray!
And people still argue how it's a nerf using the infestor as it's used today... Seriously take what you are given at look at the possibilities. So much ignorance it's sad...
Alot of good will come out of this. Some people mention better dynamic on the different matchups and I totally agree.
You loose utility and gain DPS, yet you can maintain utility if you increase your infestor numbers, and why wouldnt you since they do more dps to begin with?
I would consider taking 8 second stun with no damage and instant cast rather than this garbage.
- Damage will not be good vs protoss units. - Damage will own terran bio. BUT - Infestors cant stop drops now - you need absolutely need mutas - no gas for infestors for a long time.
I think infestors will dissappear from my play. Which is sad
On March 02 2011 18:40 Kyuki wrote: Ofc the projectile change is a nerf, but instant cast fungal denied Air FAR too well. If you have infestors around, you CANNOT use your Phoenix, or your mutas AT ALL for its purpose. It's one thing that you dance around storm, poke around thors and take some damage etc, but beeing locked down for 8 seconds and not beeing able to do anything about the actual cast besides praying that the opponent misses is a design flaw that is beeing changed and in turn they had to make the spell stronger DPS wise so it wouldn be useless. And now it's more useful in other situations instead.
It's a give and take situation. Better players will be better att using fungal. Hurray!
And people still argue how it's a nerf using the infestor as it's used today... Seriously take what you are given at look at the possibilities. So much ignorance it's sad...
Alot of good will come out of this. Some people mention better dynamic on the different matchups and I totally agree.
Zerg lacks good ground/air based AA. both hydras and Corrupter are too slow or don't have enough range, and this is why you need FG to lockdown the air (specially late game when you have T3 tech!!), Zerg units are designed this way to have synergy with FG.
Infestors have a specific utility role as a support for T3 units!! without the lockdown zerg T3 will go down the drain. PERIOD
I don't understand why non-zerg players come here spew garbage when they have no clue of the role of infestor /or have played around with the new infestor !!
Your rage is exactly my point. You can still use its utility, but you need something to support it to make it as useful in THAT regard. As you said, the synergy is still there, you just dont get the leeway to have _8_ seconds to catch up to whatever drop and air harass, but need to be on your toes.
You claim it HAS A ROLE, and CANNOT do anything else. Well here you go, you have a added role for it - deal with it and adapt.
I love how zerg players come here and spew shit ALL day long about EVERYTHING that is zerg related and think that when there is someone that says something positive about the race they don't play the race. Ignorance is awesome.
On March 02 2011 19:11 Kyuki wrote: Your rage is exactly my point. You can still use its utility, but you need something to support it to make it as useful in THAT regard. As you said, the synergy is still there, you just dont get the leeway to have _8_ seconds to catch up to whatever drop and air harass, but need to be on your toes.
You claim it HAS A ROLE, and CANNOT do anything else. Well here you go, you have a added role for it - deal with it and adapt.
I love how zerg players come here and spew shit ALL day long about EVERYTHING that is zerg related and think that when there is someone that says something positive about the race they don't play the race. Ignorance is awesome.
ROFL, what are you even saying? you are not even making any sense. You are arguing for the sake of arguing and not the argument, seems to me like a troll statement.
Why do you come here when you have no clue about the prepatch infestor role or what postpatch infestor role might be, you clearly don't play zerg nor do you have understanding of their role
On March 02 2011 18:54 Arir wrote: - Infestors cant stop drops now - you need absolutely need mutas - no gas for infestors for a long time.
Alternatively, you can do what every Terran and Toss player has to do vs zerg and make some well-placed static defense. Most T bases take, what? 500 minerals to defend with a PF and 3 or 4 Turrets? Look at ways to pull off the same defense for cost as a Z.
Look at ways to pull off the same defense for cost as a Z.
for this cost you get al lil less than 3 spines, which get obliterated by the "standard" 8 marine or 4 marauder (or a mix) drop, while your planetary makes a push in that direction just not worth it...
Look at ways to pull off the same defense for cost as a Z.
for this cost you get al lil less than 3 spines, which get obliterated by the "standard" 8 marine or 4 marauder (or a mix) drop, while your planetary makes a push in that direction just not worth it...
Not only that, Also a usual ZvT ends up to 5base vs 3base, so you need what 5spine preemptive crawlers for those 5bases? (because drop tech is part of bio play). That can not be said about turrets as they are only used if the zerg is going mutalisk.
On March 02 2011 19:11 Kyuki wrote: Your rage is exactly my point. You can still use its utility, but you need something to support it to make it as useful in THAT regard. As you said, the synergy is still there, you just dont get the leeway to have _8_ seconds to catch up to whatever drop and air harass, but need to be on your toes.
You claim it HAS A ROLE, and CANNOT do anything else. Well here you go, you have a added role for it - deal with it and adapt.
I love how zerg players come here and spew shit ALL day long about EVERYTHING that is zerg related and think that when there is someone that says something positive about the race they don't play the race. Ignorance is awesome.
ROFL, what are you even saying? you are not even making any sense. You are arguing for the sake of arguing and not the argument, seems to me like a troll statement.
Why do you come here when you have no clue about the prepatch infestor role or what postpatch infestor role might be, you clearly don't play zerg nor do you have understanding of their role
Just because you can't grasp simple things and can't argue your opinion besides saying "I've tired this and it's bad!" (which is a horrible argument) indicates more that You are trolling, not me.
In this thread you've only stated what we already know. It's worse at doing what it does today, yet you don't seem to have even tried to utilize the spell in a different way, and keep crying nerf. No shit...
Ha ha and now it will turn into a balance/race thread. Guys...Seriously.
The video i linked in the precedent page is not to show if it's a nerf or a buf, it's not to show that fungal is OP or UP regarding the army cost etc...It's to show the spell in some actual games so we can have a better idea of the changes, period. It's not a pro game, diamond/master according to the author. That's all.
Now as he stated, it's harder to catch flying units. Blizzard want that for a long time i think ( there was a change on fungal that started a shitstorm i you remember as it was only ground effective ), so yeah , it will be harder to catch banshee, but most off all muta/phoenix. I also have some doubts about hellion. So in that regard, it's a nerf.
Now lets face it, the damage are enormous. It completely destroy gateway ball ( and i don't see how force feald would change that fact considering the range of fungal ), neural a tank is way more easy and as the author say, he's not used to the missile micro ( nor as his opponents ) so it will change in both way ( better anticipation, and some micro to avoid it ).
Like it or not, if that change hit the official server, you'll have to adapt and change or go trolling and QQing on blizzard forums. Now make your choice.
Everything other that those fact is theory crafting, will it be harder to stop a drop ? Probably, but once the bio troups will be landed, a fungal will crush them so i don't think this is the hardest point.
Imo, flying units and speed hellions will be the tricky one, so we'll have to change our response, add some roaches for hellions ( where fungal/speeling were sufficient ) corrutpors/hydra/queens for phoenixes...Idk, but i like the idee overall, cause it makes the infestor more playable in all macth up specially in ZvP. This change may completely change the meta game ( ghost/feedback etc...), and i like that, it's mean that blizzard is considering that the game can evolve a lot, and it's a good thing imo.
On March 02 2011 20:12 Super_bricklayer wrote: Ha ha and now it will turn into a balance/race thread. Guys...Seriously.
The video i linked in the precedent page is not to show if it's a nerf or a buf, it's not to show that fungal is OP or UP regarding the army cost etc...It's to show the spell in some actual games so we can have a better idea of the changes, period. It's not a pro game, diamond/master according to the author. That's all.
Now as he stated, it's harder to catch flying units. Blizzard want that for a long time i think ( there was a change on fungal that started a shitstorm i you remember as it was only ground effective ), so yeah , it will be harder to catch banshee, but most off all muta/phoenix. I also have some doubts about hellion. So in that regard, it's a nerf.
Now lets face it, the damage are enormous. It completely destroy gateway ball ( and i don't see how force feald would change that fact considering the range of fungal ), neural a tank is way more easy and as the author say, he's not used to the missile micro ( nor as his opponents ) so it will change in both way ( better anticipation, and some micro to avoid it ).
Like it or not, if that change hit the official server, you'll have to adapt and change or go trolling and QQing on blizzard forums. Now make your choice.
Everything other that those fact is theory crafting, will it be harder to stop a drop ? Probably, but once the bio troups will be landed, a fungal will crush them so i don't think this is the hardest point.
Imo, flying units and speed hellions will be the tricky one, so we'll have to change our response, add some roaches for hellions ( where fungal/speeling were sufficient ) corrutpors/hydra/queens for phoenixes...Idk, but i like the idee overall, cause it makes the infestor more playable in all macth up specially in ZvP. This change may completely change the meta game ( ghost/feedback etc...), and i like that, it's mean that blizzard is considering that the game can evolve a lot, and it's a good thing imo.
On March 02 2011 19:11 Kyuki wrote: Your rage is exactly my point. You can still use its utility, but you need something to support it to make it as useful in THAT regard. As you said, the synergy is still there, you just dont get the leeway to have _8_ seconds to catch up to whatever drop and air harass, but need to be on your toes.
You claim it HAS A ROLE, and CANNOT do anything else. Well here you go, you have a added role for it - deal with it and adapt.
I love how zerg players come here and spew shit ALL day long about EVERYTHING that is zerg related and think that when there is someone that says something positive about the race they don't play the race. Ignorance is awesome.
ROFL, what are you even saying? you are not even making any sense. You are arguing for the sake of arguing and not the argument, seems to me like a troll statement.
Why do you come here when you have no clue about the prepatch infestor role or what postpatch infestor role might be, you clearly don't play zerg nor do you have understanding of their role
Just because you can't grasp simple things and can't argue your opinion besides saying "I've tired this and it's bad!" (which is a horrible argument) indicates more that You are trolling, not me.
In this thread you've only stated what we already know. It's worse at doing what it does today, yet you don't seem to have even tried to utilize the spell in a different way, and keep crying nerf. No shit...
Again, what gives you the authority to speak about something you have no idea of. How many times do I have to repeat this? "You don't play zerg nor have you tried the infestor pre/post patch".
This is what you sound like: Oh Blizzard removed forcefield from sentries, now lets see how can we utilize that LOL. Blizzard has effectively slashed the utility of infestors, they served way more purpose with the lock-down then they will now with "faster" dps / projectile.
The "only" function they serve now is dps burst in big battles hence their utilization has been nerfed
PS: Keep on spamming the forums to increase your post count
EDIT: Secondly I am not QQing / arguing that blizzard shouldn't implement this change, but rather stating that this is not a buff at all as the title suggests, nor it is a good change.
On February 26 2011 15:48 Cloesd wrote: This seems a little Overpowered.
38 damage over 4 seconds, is... 9dps... That's the DPS of a spine crawler for 4 seconds.
What essentially happens when you fungal growth an army (non-armoured) is, every unit that is hit takes Spinecrawler DPS for four seconds on TOP of whatever else you have hitting them.
If something else is hitting them, (Probably hydralisks)... any marine hit by this is gaurenteed to die. If the marines decide to STIM, they are going to die so fast to this... you have -10hp from the stim, -15hp from a hydralisk shot, and -9hp from the first tick of fungal.. this is 35 damage done in the first second, 1 second later is 45 (regular marines die) 1 second later is 55 damage (shielded marines die). (This is not counting the hydralisk hits for the 2nd, 3rd and fouth ticks, but also discounts medivac healing.).
Marines are dead.
Maybe this will make a Terran think about teching from marines to be able to win games?
While I totally agree with your statements concerning drops, tanks und gateway balls, I have to point a few things out.
1) There already pretty strong compositions against toss gateway units. The problem here are the colossi (+ VR and/or HT). Gateway units are just a meatshield here while other units deal the damage. Maybe the gateway ball will melt faster, but FG dmg is a one trick pony like PSIstorm. Once depleted, the infestor becomes useless (unlike HT).
2) ZvZ will become a "lets look who can bring his mutas faster" because without pinning them you cant ever leave your base. Hydras/corruptors are WAY to slow to defend/attack
3) Same with phoenix play. Corruptors/Hydras are way to slow und massing up queens/spores seems like a overcommitment
4) Stim marines! A Unit that can actually kite every zerg unit to death. FG was mostly used to pin them that banelings get a chance to hit them. I dont feel like the new fungal can actually hit a stimed ball of marines. Haveing to use Speedlings first to pin the marines that fungal can hit sees like a waste of infestors - once pinned banelings can also do the job. Same concern like 1) depleted infestors (and the will be drained very quickly) are a waste of supply
On March 02 2011 19:11 Kyuki wrote: Your rage is exactly my point. You can still use its utility, but you need something to support it to make it as useful in THAT regard. As you said, the synergy is still there, you just dont get the leeway to have _8_ seconds to catch up to whatever drop and air harass, but need to be on your toes.
You claim it HAS A ROLE, and CANNOT do anything else. Well here you go, you have a added role for it - deal with it and adapt.
I love how zerg players come here and spew shit ALL day long about EVERYTHING that is zerg related and think that when there is someone that says something positive about the race they don't play the race. Ignorance is awesome.
ROFL, what are you even saying? you are not even making any sense. You are arguing for the sake of arguing and not the argument, seems to me like a troll statement.
Why do you come here when you have no clue about the prepatch infestor role or what postpatch infestor role might be, you clearly don't play zerg nor do you have understanding of their role
Just because you can't grasp simple things and can't argue your opinion besides saying "I've tired this and it's bad!" (which is a horrible argument) indicates more that You are trolling, not me.
In this thread you've only stated what we already know. It's worse at doing what it does today, yet you don't seem to have even tried to utilize the spell in a different way, and keep crying nerf. No shit...
Again, what gives you the authority to speak about something you have no idea of. How many times do I have to repeat this? "You don't play zerg nor have you tried the infestor pre/post patch".
This is what you sound like: Oh Blizzard removed forcefield from sentries, now lets see how can we utilize that LOL. Blizzard has effectively slashed the utility of infestors, they served way more purpose with the lock-down then they will now with "faster" dps / projectile.
The "only" function they serve now is dps burst in big battles hence their utilization has been nerfed
PS: Keep on spamming the forums to increase your post count
Haha, you're a funny guy. Authority? Do I need authority to speak of balance changes? If that's the case then who has authority? Everyone who plays Zerg? Haha jesus christ, you're funny.
Wtf man you really can't argue :s. "Blizzard removes force field from sentries let's see how we can utilize that". Did they remove fungal? Did they remove the immobilization? Your comparison is fucking horrible :s
Stick to your belief and see how others adapt and become better players while you lag behind and keep crying like the rest of the noobs. gl
And yeah I spam alot to get my postcount "high". Research is your friend...
On March 02 2011 20:12 Super_bricklayer wrote: Ha ha and now it will turn into a balance/race thread. Guys...Seriously.
The video i linked in the precedent page is not to show if it's a nerf or a buf, it's not to show that fungal is OP or UP regarding the army cost etc...It's to show the spell in some actual games so we can have a better idea of the changes, period. It's not a pro game, diamond/master according to the author. That's all.
Now as he stated, it's harder to catch flying units. Blizzard want that for a long time i think ( there was a change on fungal that started a shitstorm i you remember as it was only ground effective ), so yeah , it will be harder to catch banshee, but most off all muta/phoenix. I also have some doubts about hellion. So in that regard, it's a nerf.
Now lets face it, the damage are enormous. It completely destroy gateway ball ( and i don't see how force feald would change that fact considering the range of fungal ), neural a tank is way more easy and as the author say, he's not used to the missile micro ( nor as his opponents ) so it will change in both way ( better anticipation, and some micro to avoid it ).
Like it or not, if that change hit the official server, you'll have to adapt and change or go trolling and QQing on blizzard forums. Now make your choice.
Everything other that those fact is theory crafting, will it be harder to stop a drop ? Probably, but once the bio troups will be landed, a fungal will crush them so i don't think this is the hardest point.
Imo, flying units and speed hellions will be the tricky one, so we'll have to change our response, add some roaches for hellions ( where fungal/speeling were sufficient ) corrutpors/hydra/queens for phoenixes...Idk, but i like the idee overall, cause it makes the infestor more playable in all macth up specially in ZvP. This change may completely change the meta game ( ghost/feedback etc...), and i like that, it's mean that blizzard is considering that the game can evolve a lot, and it's a good thing imo.
how can you say it makes the infestor more playable? Cause not a lot of people use them doesnt make it a bad unit. I liked fungle vs Toss. I always used the infester in al my matches as the linchpin of my army ( i am really not a Pro, not even close). TLO used it vs P. Alot of people started practicing with it in ZvZ, Hydra roach vs Infestor Roach.
As for the change, i dont like it. ZvZ wil become a Mutafest. And in smaler/mid numbers, stalkers/stimemd marines can easely dodge this spell in its current state. ZvP, meh i dno. i cant see myself cathing blinkstalkers with it cause of the stupid slowass ball your spitting.
And for the damage is enormus, i dont know. Is the Damage of 1 fungle better then 1 hydra? Cause the damage change of fungle is great, dubble dps. But is the damage really that good? i can undestand people getting hyped bout this but i would like to see it first before i join the club. Also if you compare fungle to storm or EMP(vs P) i really dont think its damage is high. Not a instant cast. however the snare is nice. But that was better with the old fungle. And they always got the damage with the old fungle anyway. if it is 1 sec, 4, or 3hours.
On March 02 2011 19:11 Kyuki wrote: Your rage is exactly my point. You can still use its utility, but you need something to support it to make it as useful in THAT regard. As you said, the synergy is still there, you just dont get the leeway to have _8_ seconds to catch up to whatever drop and air harass, but need to be on your toes.
You claim it HAS A ROLE, and CANNOT do anything else. Well here you go, you have a added role for it - deal with it and adapt.
I love how zerg players come here and spew shit ALL day long about EVERYTHING that is zerg related and think that when there is someone that says something positive about the race they don't play the race. Ignorance is awesome.
ROFL, what are you even saying? you are not even making any sense. You are arguing for the sake of arguing and not the argument, seems to me like a troll statement.
Why do you come here when you have no clue about the prepatch infestor role or what postpatch infestor role might be, you clearly don't play zerg nor do you have understanding of their role
Just because you can't grasp simple things and can't argue your opinion besides saying "I've tired this and it's bad!" (which is a horrible argument) indicates more that You are trolling, not me.
In this thread you've only stated what we already know. It's worse at doing what it does today, yet you don't seem to have even tried to utilize the spell in a different way, and keep crying nerf. No shit...
Again, what gives you the authority to speak about something you have no idea of. How many times do I have to repeat this? "You don't play zerg nor have you tried the infestor pre/post patch".
This is what you sound like: Oh Blizzard removed forcefield from sentries, now lets see how can we utilize that LOL. Blizzard has effectively slashed the utility of infestors, they served way more purpose with the lock-down then they will now with "faster" dps / projectile.
The "only" function they serve now is dps burst in big battles hence their utilization has been nerfed
PS: Keep on spamming the forums to increase your post count
Haha, you're a funny guy. Authority? Do I need authority to speak of balance changes? If that's the case then who has authority? Everyone who plays Zerg? Haha jesus christ, you're funny.
Wtf man you really can't argue :s. "Blizzard removes force field from sentries let's see how we can utilize that". Did they remove fungal? Did they remove the immobilization? Your comparison is fucking horrible :s
Stick to your belief and see how others adapt and become better players while you lag behind and keep crying like the rest of the noobs. gl
And yeah I spam alot to get my postcount "high". Research is your friend...
Arguing with you is like arguing against a monkey! I can't go into TvP threads and argue about Amulet(or whatever) changes because I have no clue about that matchup / metagame or the role Templar plays throughout mid-late game.
No they haven't removed fungal but the combination of projectile + FG duration nearly nullifies the lockdown role, a crucial role for T3 support which is IMO equal to the synergy of FF with collosi/stalker army.
Your entire argument is this-> blizzard changes something -> guys lets not argue how it negatively affects the current meta game but lets look at the future.
I am not arguing with you there, I could careless what blizzard does at the end of the day I am still playing for fun. I AM JUST Freaking stating that it is nerf, an OBVIOUS nerf which you can't tell because you don't play the race!! Yet you come here on your high horse and lecture others. BRAVO
On March 02 2011 19:11 Kyuki wrote: Your rage is exactly my point. You can still use its utility, but you need something to support it to make it as useful in THAT regard. As you said, the synergy is still there, you just dont get the leeway to have _8_ seconds to catch up to whatever drop and air harass, but need to be on your toes.
You claim it HAS A ROLE, and CANNOT do anything else. Well here you go, you have a added role for it - deal with it and adapt.
I love how zerg players come here and spew shit ALL day long about EVERYTHING that is zerg related and think that when there is someone that says something positive about the race they don't play the race. Ignorance is awesome.
ROFL, what are you even saying? you are not even making any sense. You are arguing for the sake of arguing and not the argument, seems to me like a troll statement.
Why do you come here when you have no clue about the prepatch infestor role or what postpatch infestor role might be, you clearly don't play zerg nor do you have understanding of their role
Just because you can't grasp simple things and can't argue your opinion besides saying "I've tired this and it's bad!" (which is a horrible argument) indicates more that You are trolling, not me.
In this thread you've only stated what we already know. It's worse at doing what it does today, yet you don't seem to have even tried to utilize the spell in a different way, and keep crying nerf. No shit...
Again, what gives you the authority to speak about something you have no idea of. How many times do I have to repeat this? "You don't play zerg nor have you tried the infestor pre/post patch".
This is what you sound like: Oh Blizzard removed forcefield from sentries, now lets see how can we utilize that LOL. Blizzard has effectively slashed the utility of infestors, they served way more purpose with the lock-down then they will now with "faster" dps / projectile.
The "only" function they serve now is dps burst in big battles hence their utilization has been nerfed
PS: Keep on spamming the forums to increase your post count
Haha, you're a funny guy. Authority? Do I need authority to speak of balance changes? If that's the case then who has authority? Everyone who plays Zerg? Haha jesus christ, you're funny.
Wtf man you really can't argue :s. "Blizzard removes force field from sentries let's see how we can utilize that". Did they remove fungal? Did they remove the immobilization? Your comparison is fucking horrible :s
Stick to your belief and see how others adapt and become better players while you lag behind and keep crying like the rest of the noobs. gl
And yeah I spam alot to get my postcount "high". Research is your friend...
Arguing with you is like arguing against a monkey! I can't go into TvP threads and argue about Amulet(or whatever) changes because I have no clue about that matchup / metagame or the role Templar plays throughout mid-late game.
No they haven't removed fungal but the combination of projectile + FG duration nearly nullifies the lockdown role, a crucial role for T3 support which is IMO equal to the synergy of FF with collosi/stalker army.
Your entire argument is this-> blizzard changes something -> guys lets not argue how it negatively affects the current meta game but lets look at the future.
I am not arguing with you there, I could careless what blizzard does at the end of the day I am still playing for fun. I AM JUST Freaking stating that it is nerf, an OBVIOUS nerf which you can't tell because you don't play the race!! Yet you come here on your high horse and lecture others. BRAVO
You keep saying I have no clue: Here's some facts about me and I was hoping that I didnt need to say this because frankly who should give a fuck? I've played Zerg extensively, I've played Terran extensively and I've played Toss extensively and I've played quite abit of random, all at the highest league besides masters now where I've only been as Toss. I'm a terrible player compared to pros, but it doesnt mean I'm clueless about the game.
Having it projectile means it's a skillshot. Not that it nullifies its use. Beeing harder to hit = needs more practice to get good at, nothing strange. Agree? Or maybe you'd just disregard that beeing good actually plays a role in how you utilize units and spells.
You're _STATING_ it's a nerf. You're not arguing why, and this is where you fail. Yes when used as you use it today it should be regarded as a nerf, and again (repetetive I know), maybe you shouldnt? Maybe you should mix things up, and not entirely rely on fungals to stop drops and delay pushes. Maybe you need to rethink.
Yes it changes gameplay, and maybe that's a good thing for Zerg looking at how zerg most often just dies to a big fucking push that they cannot windle down enough for the reinforcements to clean up. Harder hitting fungals might help with this problem while also adressing design flaws like 1 unit nullifying air harass.
On March 02 2011 20:12 Super_bricklayer wrote: Ha ha and now it will turn into a balance/race thread. Guys...Seriously.
The video i linked in the precedent page is not to show if it's a nerf or a buf, it's not to show that fungal is OP or UP regarding the army cost etc...It's to show the spell in some actual games so we can have a better idea of the changes, period. It's not a pro game, diamond/master according to the author. That's all.
Now as he stated, it's harder to catch flying units. Blizzard want that for a long time i think ( there was a change on fungal that started a shitstorm i you remember as it was only ground effective ), so yeah , it will be harder to catch banshee, but most off all muta/phoenix. I also have some doubts about hellion. So in that regard, it's a nerf.
Now lets face it, the damage are enormous. It completely destroy gateway ball ( and i don't see how force feald would change that fact considering the range of fungal ), neural a tank is way more easy and as the author say, he's not used to the missile micro ( nor as his opponents ) so it will change in both way ( better anticipation, and some micro to avoid it ).
Like it or not, if that change hit the official server, you'll have to adapt and change or go trolling and QQing on blizzard forums. Now make your choice.
Everything other that those fact is theory crafting, will it be harder to stop a drop ? Probably, but once the bio troups will be landed, a fungal will crush them so i don't think this is the hardest point.
Imo, flying units and speed hellions will be the tricky one, so we'll have to change our response, add some roaches for hellions ( where fungal/speeling were sufficient ) corrutpors/hydra/queens for phoenixes...Idk, but i like the idee overall, cause it makes the infestor more playable in all macth up specially in ZvP. This change may completely change the meta game ( ghost/feedback etc...), and i like that, it's mean that blizzard is considering that the game can evolve a lot, and it's a good thing imo.
how can you say it makes the infestor more playable? Cause not a lot of people use them doesnt make it a bad unit. I liked fungle vs Toss. I always used the infester in al my matches as the linchpin of my army ( i am really not a Pro, not even close). TLO used it vs P. Alot of people started practicing with it in ZvZ, Hydra roach vs Infestor Roach.
As for the change, i dont like it. ZvZ wil become a Mutafest. And in smaler/mid numbers, stalkers/stimemd marines can easely dodge this spell in its current state. ZvP, meh i dno. i cant see myself cathing blinkstalkers with it cause of the stupid slowass ball your spitting.
And for the damage is enormus, i dont know. Is the Damage of 1 fungle better then 1 hydra? Cause the damage change of fungle is great, dubble dps. But is the damage really that good? i can undestand people getting hyped bout this but i would like to see it first before i join the club. Also if you compare fungle to storm or EMP(vs P) i really dont think its damage is high. Not a instant cast. however the snare is nice. But that was better with the old fungle. And they always got the damage with the old fungle anyway. if it is 1 sec, 4, or 3hours.
Tlo himself during the 12 weeks with the pro says infestor where extremely hard and situational to use in ZvP, you can use them very effectively against 2 stargate opening, it's like the perfect hard counter. But again 3/4 of the other openings they cost too many gas for the amount of damage they deal. In that regard, the changes could be extremely good for that match up.
Concerning the muta in ZvZ, we don't know yet. It will be harder to catch them for sure. Will it make ZvZ a muta fest ? I won't bet my money, cause even if it's harder, one good fungal and you'll loose all the muta that will be hit. Specially since with those change we will probably make more infestor as we are used to considering they will be more damage dealer than a support unit.
Same logic with marines, yes they can kitte etc...But one mistake and your armie is gone. And i'm not sure that as you said, marines and stalker will dodge that so easily once we'll get used to that missile. Blink stalker could be a problem ( agree it's weird considering fungal is a counter to blink ), i don't know.
All those point are theory crafting, and that's why i don't like to argue about those specific point. We don't know yet, i could listen more to top player, but usually they never place such big affirmation before testing it seriously, and long enough...You see where am i going here yah ?
And most off all, i hate comparing direct spell. Storm or EMP are effective cause of the army/race they are part off. It's not constructive to make some direct comparison.
All i am saying is that it's such a big change we can't see clearly how effective it's gonna be. I could even bet that we'll see some people crying it's OP in the 3/4 weeks after the ( possible ) patch. :D
Having it projectile means it's a skillshot. Not that it nullifies its use. Beeing harder to hit = needs more practice to get good at, nothing strange. Agree? Or maybe you'd just disregard that beeing good actually plays a role in how you utilize units and spells.
ATM ist like klicking a HSM. No skill involved on the side of the caster. You just cant aim it. You can try to predict where he will possibly run, press your hotkey and pray that you guessed right. Compare it to an old arcade game like space invaders... your missile is extremly slow and you only can hit things because they come in a predictable pattern. No "random" movement involved. And even in this situation shots will be misses and its much easier to just spam the "fire" button. Skill is involved only on the dodgers side. He ist the one in charge who lets the FG hit happen or not. Likewise you cant use a "tactical" FG to try and limit the opponents movement possibilities, because unlike FF or storm, FG instantly disappears if it missed. So its no "skillshot" at all... its happy guessing where a wrong guess can kill you outright.
Yes it changes gameplay, and maybe that's a good thing for Zerg looking at how zerg most often just dies to a big fucking push that they cannot windle down enough for the reinforcements to clean up. Harder hitting fungals might help with this problem while also adressing design flaws like 1 unit nullifying air harass.
Most often the zerg doesnt die because he did not enough dmg, but because he hadnt enough time to bring in another wave. How will a nerf to delaying the attack do anything good? The dmg buff is far to small to make a major difference here. For the argument with one unit shutting down air harass... maybe a design flaw, maybe not. Hard to judge if you consider the alternatives. Corruptor/hydra/muta. 2 of them extremely gasheavy (which probably means: no infestors) and two of them way to slow to shut down air harassment on 3 bases, even if you got far greater numbers.
Infestors are not the only reason ZvZ is not a muta fest. The investment of so much gas in such weak combat units early on often opens you up for just dying to a really strong roach hydra attack. I agree it is not at all clear that ZvZ will become a muta fest, though mutas may become a more viable option on maps where it's easier to set up a huge field of spinecrawlers to defend that roach hydra push.
Yes it changes gameplay, and maybe that's a good thing for Zerg looking at how zerg most often just dies to a big fucking push that they cannot windle down enough for the reinforcements to clean up. Harder hitting fungals might help with this problem while also adressing design flaws like 1 unit nullifying air harass.
Most often the zerg doesnt die because he did not enough dmg, but because he hadnt enough time to bring in another wave. How will a nerf to delaying the attack do anything good? The dmg buff is far to small to make a major difference here. For the argument with one unit shutting down air harass... maybe a design flaw, maybe not. Hard to judge if you consider the alternatives. Corruptor/hydra/muta. 2 of them extremely gasheavy (which probably means: no infestors) and two of them way to slow to shut down air harassment on 3 bases, even if you got far greater numbers.
Well looking at how Ret got knocked out of the GSL a few days ago () (specially game two) where he had a pretty big lead and could not kill off enough units when terran moved out and then had the Terran army at his doorstep this could be viewed both ways. You could argue that Ret made some mistakes during the push ofc, and I'm not saying that more DPS fungal would've made a difference but if used differently (in trying to crush the push) it might have.
Once you're maxed you can't reinforce during combat anyways and need to have units die off, if your infestor for some reason are still alive after the confrontation they'll hardly delay the entire blobb of units that is coming at you if you didnt kill off enough of it. With the units spawning and dying as they spawn and the zerg army generally not beeing able to regroup it's GG.
That's why banelings are used as you need to crush the push and windle down the numbers as you reproduce alot faster as zerg -> playing to the zergs strength.
It's ofc nice if you're out of position when the push comes and want to delay it abit to reposition, but the PTR fungal can do that too if you absolutly have to. Not as good, but you can still do it.
It's all TC so far ofc, and that goes both ways. I'd just wait and see what people can do with it, because frankly it's way to new to tell imho.
Having it projectile means it's a skillshot. Not that it nullifies its use. Beeing harder to hit = needs more practice to get good at, nothing strange. Agree? Or maybe you'd just disregard that beeing good actually plays a role in how you utilize units and spells.
ATM ist like klicking a HSM. No skill involved on the side of the caster. You just cant aim it. You can try to predict where he will possibly run, press your hotkey and pray that you guessed right. Compare it to an old arcade game like space invaders... your missile is extremly slow and you only can hit things because they come in a predictable pattern. No "random" movement involved. And even in this situation shots will be misses and its much easier to just spam the "fire" button. Skill is involved only on the dodgers side. He ist the one in charge who lets the FG hit happen or not. Likewise you cant use a "tactical" FG to try and limit the opponents movement possibilities, because unlike FF or storm, FG instantly disappears if it missed. So its no "skillshot" at all... its happy guessing where a wrong guess can kill you outright.
Yes it changes gameplay, and maybe that's a good thing for Zerg looking at how zerg most often just dies to a big fucking push that they cannot windle down enough for the reinforcements to clean up. Harder hitting fungals might help with this problem while also adressing design flaws like 1 unit nullifying air harass.
Most often the zerg doesnt die because he did not enough dmg, but because he hadnt enough time to bring in another wave. How will a nerf to delaying the attack do anything good? The dmg buff is far to small to make a major difference here. For the argument with one unit shutting down air harass... maybe a design flaw, maybe not. Hard to judge if you consider the alternatives. Corruptor/hydra/muta. 2 of them extremely gasheavy (which probably means: no infestors) and two of them way to slow to shut down air harassment on 3 bases, even if you got far greater numbers.
If you played dota you'll know that this IS indeed a skill shot and predicting 'random' movements is still skill because its not completely 'random'. Players will have logical trends in where they move their units.
This is a buff in the same sense that taking one of the seats out of my car and installing a coffee machine would be a buff. Delicious coffee on tap - but if I want to drive my family anywhere I have to make two trips.
I don't need or want a 150 gas short-range one-shot siege tank with a slow, dodgeable projectile. I want to punish a terran for making nothing but goddamn marines all game. Right now, all he has to do is pony up for a ghost and he's fine. Why is that too much trouble? Why is it so unreasonable for me to have one unit he can't render impotent by pressing 'T'?
/rant.
Video makes the DPS look fun though. I guess I'll get used to whatever.
On March 02 2011 20:12 Super_bricklayer wrote: Ha ha and now it will turn into a balance/race thread. Guys...Seriously.
The video i linked in the precedent page is not to show if it's a nerf or a buf, it's not to show that fungal is OP or UP regarding the army cost etc...It's to show the spell in some actual games so we can have a better idea of the changes, period. It's not a pro game, diamond/master according to the author. That's all.
Now as he stated, it's harder to catch flying units. Blizzard want that for a long time i think ( there was a change on fungal that started a shitstorm i you remember as it was only ground effective ), so yeah , it will be harder to catch banshee, but most off all muta/phoenix. I also have some doubts about hellion. So in that regard, it's a nerf.
Now lets face it, the damage are enormous. It completely destroy gateway ball ( and i don't see how force feald would change that fact considering the range of fungal ), neural a tank is way more easy and as the author say, he's not used to the missile micro ( nor as his opponents ) so it will change in both way ( better anticipation, and some micro to avoid it ).
Like it or not, if that change hit the official server, you'll have to adapt and change or go trolling and QQing on blizzard forums. Now make your choice.
Everything other that those fact is theory crafting, will it be harder to stop a drop ? Probably, but once the bio troups will be landed, a fungal will crush them so i don't think this is the hardest point.
Imo, flying units and speed hellions will be the tricky one, so we'll have to change our response, add some roaches for hellions ( where fungal/speeling were sufficient ) corrutpors/hydra/queens for phoenixes...Idk, but i like the idee overall, cause it makes the infestor more playable in all macth up specially in ZvP. This change may completely change the meta game ( ghost/feedback etc...), and i like that, it's mean that blizzard is considering that the game can evolve a lot, and it's a good thing imo.
Exactly. Good post.
Personally i like the fact that Blizz is deciding to put more "skill" into the game. Making Micro the decisive power behind outcomes. How Zerg have to aim and pre-guess positions and the opponent has to dodge accordingly. Makes fo better gameplay.
About infestors having "a new role": Well its true. With that change, they will have a new role. But that change of role in itself is a nerf.
New infestor will be much better at dealing with big bioballs, and gateway armies. However, it will be worse at stopping drops, air harass, DTs, hellions, and so on. So yep, that makes it a change in role.
The problem here, is that we already have very good ways to deal with big bioballs, and big gateway armies. These are not a problem to zerg players. And thus we dont really need infestors to deal with that. This "New role" infestors get, of dealing with gateway armies and bioballs, is something that is already covered by other units, its not something we struggle with. However, their old role, stuff like stopping ultras from getting kited, stopping broodlords from getting raped by vikings and void rays, stopping air harass, and so on, is not covered by anything else even remotely as well. Thus we will struggle more there.
So yeah, its role is changing. But that in itself is a big part of the nerf. Imagine if for example marines were given slightly more life, cost a little bit of gas, got more damage against armored, less damage against non armored, and couldnt shoot up anymore. That would be a change of role, that would turn marines into marauders, they would then have the same role as marauders. That would also be a nerf. Because against everything where marauders were good, terran already has the option of making marauders, that role is already covered. But their anti air role, would no longer be covered effectively by anything else, and muta harass would completely rape all terrans.
Imagine if instead, they changed fungal to still be instant cast, do half the damage it does now, and instead hold units in place for 12 seconds, and have 11 range. That would also be a change in role. But that would be a buff. Why? Because it would actually help with things that zergs now struggle with, such as delaying a toss deathball while reinforcements get built, and so on, while in other situations, we still have ways to deal with them.
As a zerg, it just seems better to be able to deal with phoenixes using infestors, and be able to deal with mass marines using banelings, rather than being able to deal with mass marines with both banelings and infestors, but having 0 ways to deal with phoenix harass. Its not bad in itself that the infestor is shifting roles. Its bad however, that its shifting from a role where it was the only effective thing, to a role that is already covered by other units, and where it isnt really needed in the first place.
And ofc, the fact that it can be dodged, while good for gameplay, is a nerf.
On March 02 2011 23:45 morimacil wrote: About infestors having "a new role": Well its true. With that change, they will have a new role. But that change of role in itself is a nerf.
New infestor will be much better at dealing with big bioballs, and gateway armies. However, it will be worse at stopping drops, air harass, DTs, hellions, and so on. So yep, that makes it a change in role.
The problem here, is that we already have very good ways to deal with big bioballs, and big gateway armies. These are not a problem to zerg players. And thus we dont really need infestors to deal with that. This "New role" infestors get, of dealing with gateway armies and bioballs, is something that is already covered by other units, its not something we struggle with. However, their old role, stuff like stopping ultras from getting kited, stopping broodlords from getting raped by vikings and void rays, stopping air harass, and so on, is not covered by anything else even remotely as well. Thus we will struggle more there.
So yeah, its role is changing. But that in itself is a big part of the nerf. Imagine if for example marines were given slightly more life, cost a little bit of gas, got more damage against armored, less damage against non armored, and couldnt shoot up anymore. That would be a change of role, that would turn marines into marauders, they would then have the same role as marauders. That would also be a nerf. Because against everything where marauders were good, terran already has the option of making marauders, that role is already covered. But their anti air role, would no longer be covered effectively by anything else, and muta harass would completely rape all terrans.
Imagine if instead, they changed fungal to still be instant cast, do half the damage it does now, and instead hold units in place for 12 seconds, and have 11 range. That would also be a change in role. But that would be a buff. Why? Because it would actually help with things that zergs now struggle with, such as delaying a toss deathball while reinforcements get built, and so on, while in other situations, we still have ways to deal with them.
As a zerg, it just seems better to be able to deal with phoenixes using infestors, and be able to deal with mass marines using banelings, rather than being able to deal with mass marines with both banelings and infestors, but having 0 ways to deal with phoenix harass. Its not bad in itself that the infestor is shifting roles. Its bad however, that its shifting from a role where it was the only effective thing, to a role that is already covered by other units, and where it isnt really needed in the first place.
And ofc, the fact that it can be dodged, while good for gameplay, is a nerf.
On March 02 2011 23:45 morimacil wrote: About infestors having "a new role": Well its true. With that change, they will have a new role. But that change of role in itself is a nerf.
New infestor will be much better at dealing with big bioballs, and gateway armies. However, it will be worse at stopping drops, air harass, DTs, hellions, and so on. So yep, that makes it a change in role.
The problem here, is that we already have very good ways to deal with big bioballs, and big gateway armies. These are not a problem to zerg players. And thus we dont really need infestors to deal with that. This "New role" infestors get, of dealing with gateway armies and bioballs, is something that is already covered by other units, its not something we struggle with. However, their old role, stuff like stopping ultras from getting kited, stopping broodlords from getting raped by vikings and void rays, stopping air harass, and so on, is not covered by anything else even remotely as well. Thus we will struggle more there.
So yeah, its role is changing. But that in itself is a big part of the nerf. Imagine if for example marines were given slightly more life, cost a little bit of gas, got more damage against armored, less damage against non armored, and couldnt shoot up anymore. That would be a change of role, that would turn marines into marauders, they would then have the same role as marauders. That would also be a nerf. Because against everything where marauders were good, terran already has the option of making marauders, that role is already covered. But their anti air role, would no longer be covered effectively by anything else, and muta harass would completely rape all terrans.
Imagine if instead, they changed fungal to still be instant cast, do half the damage it does now, and instead hold units in place for 12 seconds, and have 11 range. That would also be a change in role. But that would be a buff. Why? Because it would actually help with things that zergs now struggle with, such as delaying a toss deathball while reinforcements get built, and so on, while in other situations, we still have ways to deal with them.
As a zerg, it just seems better to be able to deal with phoenixes using infestors, and be able to deal with mass marines using banelings, rather than being able to deal with mass marines with both banelings and infestors, but having 0 ways to deal with phoenix harass. Its not bad in itself that the infestor is shifting roles. Its bad however, that its shifting from a role where it was the only effective thing, to a role that is already covered by other units, and where it isnt really needed in the first place.
And ofc, the fact that it can be dodged, while good for gameplay, is a nerf.
On March 02 2011 23:45 morimacil wrote: About infestors having "a new role": Well its true. With that change, they will have a new role. But that change of role in itself is a nerf.
New infestor will be much better at dealing with big bioballs, and gateway armies. However, it will be worse at stopping drops, air harass, DTs, hellions, and so on. So yep, that makes it a change in role.
The problem here, is that we already have very good ways to deal with big bioballs, and big gateway armies. These are not a problem to zerg players. And thus we dont really need infestors to deal with that. This "New role" infestors get, of dealing with gateway armies and bioballs, is something that is already covered by other units, its not something we struggle with. However, their old role, stuff like stopping ultras from getting kited, stopping broodlords from getting raped by vikings and void rays, stopping air harass, and so on, is not covered by anything else even remotely as well. Thus we will struggle more there.
So yeah, its role is changing. But that in itself is a big part of the nerf. Imagine if for example marines were given slightly more life, cost a little bit of gas, got more damage against armored, less damage against non armored, and couldnt shoot up anymore. That would be a change of role, that would turn marines into marauders, they would then have the same role as marauders. That would also be a nerf. Because against everything where marauders were good, terran already has the option of making marauders, that role is already covered. But their anti air role, would no longer be covered effectively by anything else, and muta harass would completely rape all terrans.
Imagine if instead, they changed fungal to still be instant cast, do half the damage it does now, and instead hold units in place for 12 seconds, and have 11 range. That would also be a change in role. But that would be a buff. Why? Because it would actually help with things that zergs now struggle with, such as delaying a toss deathball while reinforcements get built, and so on, while in other situations, we still have ways to deal with them.
As a zerg, it just seems better to be able to deal with phoenixes using infestors, and be able to deal with mass marines using banelings, rather than being able to deal with mass marines with both banelings and infestors, but having 0 ways to deal with phoenix harass. Its not bad in itself that the infestor is shifting roles. Its bad however, that its shifting from a role where it was the only effective thing, to a role that is already covered by other units, and where it isnt really needed in the first place.
And ofc, the fact that it can be dodged, while good for gameplay, is a nerf.
I totally see what you mean and how you feel, but I disagree that the change is a nerf in itself because of the fact that the other races will also have to adapt their compositions and gameplay when infestors are out. As both toss and terran I'd be alot more afraid of infestors in the PTR state compared to the current state.
Just to respond to what you're saying about Vikings and VRs and how you use Fungal today to lock those down to protect your BLs for example. You do it with Fungal only? Fungal+infested? You have no corrupter or hydras around to actually kill them? PTR fungal will just kill them faster.
I can dig the ultra kite thing, but on the other hand once you're in their face units will once again just drop faster and as most of us know; when units drops your own units gets exponentially stronger - which is the reason why I think the DPS boost is so good.
I've been saying that they've gotten a added role, not changed completely. Everything is not black and white. They can still do what you do today, but it's harder to do and you need to be quicker in your reactions and maybe add other units to defend things like phoenix harass etc. Like having a couple of hydras in your mineral lines or roaches instead of just pure ling vs hellions etc - yes you could view that as a nerf, but on the other hand they will bolster your own army so much more than before.
What other zerg unit will help you to crush/kill/windle down a protoss ball aswell as PTR fungal? This change is not the same as having units overlap in roles, there is absolutly nothing in the zerg army that does the same thing as the Infestor. If you could use more infestor instead of tons of banes (just a touch) vs a bioball you'd have more supply and more units to to put preassure back on the Terran. Banes rock, but they do die. If you can become more cost efficient isnt that good?
Again, it's TC both ways. I think it's going to be interesting to see what comes out of it though if it goes live.
I can dig the ultra kite thing, but on the other hand once you're in their face units will once again just drop faster and as most of us know; when units drops your own units gets exponentially stronger - which is the reason why I think the DPS boost is so good.
Your ultras dont get exponentially stronger when being kited more. instead of getting 36 dmg + 8 seconds of ultralisk dps, you get 36 damage, plus 4 seconds of ultralisk dps.
They can still do what you do today, but it's harder to do and you need to be quicker in your reactions and maybe add other units to defend things like phoenix harass etc. Like having a couple of hydras in your mineral lines or roaches instead of just pure ling vs hellions etc - yes you could view that as a nerf, but on the other hand they will bolster your own army so much more than before.
Imagine you are getting harassed by phoenixes. Currently, you could have like 10 hydras, and 2-3 infestors, and cover both your bases quite easily. If he moves in, you get 36 damage on the phoenixes, plus ~4 seconds of hydra dps, since they have to move into position. post patch, you would need at least 2 infestors per base to hold them in place long enough. Plus, phoenixes are really fast, so if your opponent is good with his micro, then you will most likely miss 1-2 fungals before you catch his phoenixes. So now you need like 3-5 infestors per base to be covered, instead of 1-2 per base currently. But infestors cost a lot of gas. So suddenly, if youre getting 3-5 infestors per base, you cant get hydras to dps. thats fine though, you can kill him just with fungals when getting that number of infestors. So after the harass, instead of having 1-2 infestors without energy, 1-2 infestors with energy, and 10 hydras, suddenly, you have 1-2 infestors with energy, 5-6 infestors without energy, and no hydras. that doesnt bolster your army, that makes it much weaker. You now cant counterattack your opponent, you now cant deal with a second wave of air harass, and you now cant deal with an incoming gateway push.
And it gets worse! what if your opponent has good enough micro to split his phoenixes into 2 groups, and micro both of them? With the current infestor-hydra mix, you can split up your hydras, fungal 1 group, have half the hydras dps it, and fungal the other, and have the other half dps it. But with just infestors, you now need to use up twice the energy to kill both groups. Do you even have enough infestors for that? Doubtful. But if you do, what now? now you are left with a bunch of empty infestors. At the mercy of any push or any second wave of harass. And you cant put any pressure back on your opponent. Again, it doesnt bolster your army.
Lets take your other example, against hellions. Currently, if faced with a handful of hellions, you can have 1 infestor, and a handful of lings or roaches, and be covered. But post patch, since hellions are so fast, you have a pretty high probability of missing, against an opponent with good micro. You cant just make a single infestor, and know that you can catch the hellions 100%. Thats very risky, that will result in a lot of losses where you made 1 infestor, your opponent outmicroed you, and you die. So suddenly, you need 2-3 infestors to hold it off. Thats again, a much bigger investment. Suddenly, you cant afford roaches, no gas, and your upgrades are delayed. Does it bolster your army? Well you now have 3 infestors with no energy, compared to previously 1 empty infestor, and whatever you used the rest of your gas on. So again, it doesnt really bolster your army.
When you have to use more infestors to do the same thing you could do with a single infestor previously, it really doesnt bolster your army.
They can still do what you do today, but it's harder to do and you need to be quicker in your reactions and maybe add other units to defend
That is by definition, a nerf.
And yes, I know that infestors will regen energy, so in theory, having an infestor with empty energy is better than having a dead baneling. But it takes 2 minutes and 15 seconds to get enough energy for a second fungal. Thats a looong time.
Most reason I don't like the change is because I don't feel it addresses the problem, which is the late game. In ZvT, you're basically resorted to Brood Lords if your opponent has good air coverage and siege tanks. A great way to stop Brood Lords from dying to rushes of marines and/or vikings is FG.
FG's damage-over-time might have an impact at points in the game, and I guess you could make the case that this is more helpful in those areas (although the fact that it's a dodgeable projective is just an all-around nerf). But at more pivotal points in the game, when you're trying to get as good a position as possible to hopefully punish that late-game Terran deathball, that instant and guaranteed hold-down that FG provides is what sets up the successful surround for the rest of your units. It keeps the enemy distant from your Brood Lords, lets your blings come in without being kited to death.
Now Fungal Growth looks to me like a wonky way to counter tier 1 masses (provided your opponent is the a-moving type). That's just kind of the last thing Zerg really needs.
I can dig the ultra kite thing, but on the other hand once you're in their face units will once again just drop faster and as most of us know; when units drops your own units gets exponentially stronger - which is the reason why I think the DPS boost is so good.
Your ultras dont get exponentially stronger when being kited more. instead of getting 36 dmg + 8 seconds of ultralisk dps, you get 36 damage, plus 4 seconds of ultralisk dps.
They can still do what you do today, but it's harder to do and you need to be quicker in your reactions and maybe add other units to defend things like phoenix harass etc. Like having a couple of hydras in your mineral lines or roaches instead of just pure ling vs hellions etc - yes you could view that as a nerf, but on the other hand they will bolster your own army so much more than before.
Imagine you are getting harassed by phoenixes. Currently, you could have like 10 hydras, and 2-3 infestors, and cover both your bases quite easily. If he moves in, you get 36 damage on the phoenixes, plus ~4 seconds of hydra dps, since they have to move into position. post patch, you would need at least 2 infestors per base to hold them in place long enough. Plus, phoenixes are really fast, so if your opponent is good with his micro, then you will most likely miss 1-2 fungals before you catch his phoenixes. So now you need like 3-5 infestors per base to be covered, instead of 1-2 per base currently. But infestors cost a lot of gas. So suddenly, if youre getting 3-5 infestors per base, you cant get hydras to dps. thats fine though, you can kill him just with fungals when getting that number of infestors. So after the harass, instead of having 1-2 infestors without energy, 1-2 infestors with energy, and 10 hydras, suddenly, you have 1-2 infestors with energy, 5-6 infestors without energy, and no hydras. that doesnt bolster your army, that makes it much weaker. You now cant counterattack your opponent, you now cant deal with a second wave of air harass, and you now cant deal with an incoming gateway push.
And it gets worse! what if your opponent has good enough micro to split his phoenixes into 2 groups, and micro both of them? With the current infestor-hydra mix, you can split up your hydras, fungal 1 group, have half the hydras dps it, and fungal the other, and have the other half dps it. But with just infestors, you now need to use up twice the energy to kill both groups. Do you even have enough infestors for that? Doubtful. But if you do, what now? now you are left with a bunch of empty infestors. At the mercy of any push or any second wave of harass. And you cant put any pressure back on your opponent. Again, it doesnt bolster your army.
Lets take your other example, against hellions. Currently, if faced with a handful of hellions, you can have 1 infestor, and a handful of lings or roaches, and be covered. But post patch, since hellions are so fast, you have a pretty high probability of missing, against an opponent with good micro. You cant just make a single infestor, and know that you can catch the hellions 100%. Thats very risky, that will result in a lot of losses where you made 1 infestor, your opponent outmicroed you, and you die. So suddenly, you need 2-3 infestors to hold it off. Thats again, a much bigger investment. Suddenly, you cant afford roaches, no gas, and your upgrades are delayed. Does it bolster your army? Well you now have 3 infestors with no energy, compared to previously 1 empty infestor, and whatever you used the rest of your gas on. So again, it doesnt really bolster your army.
When you have to use more infestors to do the same thing you could do with a single infestor previously, it really doesnt bolster your army.
They can still do what you do today, but it's harder to do and you need to be quicker in your reactions and maybe add other units to defend
That is by definition, a nerf.
And yes, I know that infestors will regen energy, so in theory, having an infestor with empty energy is better than having a dead baneling. But it takes 2 minutes and 15 seconds to get enough energy for a second fungal. Thats a looong time.
We obviously have two very different views on this, let's just see how it plays out.
The OP makes a post that sounds authoritative but it is really based on personal preference and everyone is lauding it as though it provides any substantial proof of how this change really plays out.
Personally, I'm going to go lean to the side that feels this is a nerf. In any close game I've played, if I have Infestors out, I need those first few Infestors to do their job or else I will lose because I just dumped a heap of resources into units that have enough energy for one spell cast at that point. People are talking in this thread like you have an army of unlimted Infestors with unlimited mana and if you miss a FG, oh well, cast another. That's not really how it works. The first few Infestors are crucial - if you miss with those, you're boned.
I can, and I know others who can, bait FGs with mutas like it's a joke - and that's in their current form. I've seen people stim marines and dodge FGs in their current form. Even if they only get half of their units out, it's not a successful FG.
People will just get better at dodging - that's it.
Now all the "buff" people will scream and say "You noob, learn to micro" or "You suck, learn to aim" except it's not about "learning" or "skill" when you're really just trying to guess at where/when the enemy is going to dodge or move to. Yes, sometimes you can force a situation where you can jam them up - but if they're worth their salt, they can avoid that (like Protoss Colossus death-balls creeping the map edges so they can block their army with FFs - people adapt to counters).
The "bonus" damage is nice in that it happens faster. I'd prefer an 8 second snare, personally; but that's just me. The casting animation, however, will make this spell a real pain in the ass to use against anyone who has spent a decent amount of time improving their micro.
On March 02 2011 23:45 morimacil wrote: About infestors having "a new role": Well its true. With that change, they will have a new role. But that change of role in itself is a nerf.
New infestor will be much better at dealing with big bioballs, and gateway armies. However, it will be worse at stopping drops, air harass, DTs, hellions, and so on. So yep, that makes it a change in role.
The problem here, is that we already have very good ways to deal with big bioballs, and big gateway armies. These are not a problem to zerg players. And thus we dont really need infestors to deal with that. This "New role" infestors get, of dealing with gateway armies and bioballs, is something that is already covered by other units, its not something we struggle with. However, their old role, stuff like stopping ultras from getting kited, stopping broodlords from getting raped by vikings and void rays, stopping air harass, and so on, is not covered by anything else even remotely as well. Thus we will struggle more there.
So yeah, its role is changing. But that in itself is a big part of the nerf. Imagine if for example marines were given slightly more life, cost a little bit of gas, got more damage against armored, less damage against non armored, and couldnt shoot up anymore. That would be a change of role, that would turn marines into marauders, they would then have the same role as marauders. That would also be a nerf. Because against everything where marauders were good, terran already has the option of making marauders, that role is already covered. But their anti air role, would no longer be covered effectively by anything else, and muta harass would completely rape all terrans.
Imagine if instead, they changed fungal to still be instant cast, do half the damage it does now, and instead hold units in place for 12 seconds, and have 11 range. That would also be a change in role. But that would be a buff. Why? Because it would actually help with things that zergs now struggle with, such as delaying a toss deathball while reinforcements get built, and so on, while in other situations, we still have ways to deal with them.
As a zerg, it just seems better to be able to deal with phoenixes using infestors, and be able to deal with mass marines using banelings, rather than being able to deal with mass marines with both banelings and infestors, but having 0 ways to deal with phoenix harass. Its not bad in itself that the infestor is shifting roles. Its bad however, that its shifting from a role where it was the only effective thing, to a role that is already covered by other units, and where it isnt really needed in the first place.
And ofc, the fact that it can be dodged, while good for gameplay, is a nerf.
You're completely wrong. Progamer zergs have huge problems with balls of marines and the gateway colossus ball of death lategame.
Phoenixes are rarely dealt with through infestors. If you watched the IEM and GSL games last couple nights, you would have seen this. Phoenixes come out way too early for infestors to be a significant deterrant; you have to have hydras and spores.
On the other hand, lategame, tanks, marine, medivac has been destroying ling/baneling/muta/infestor/insert-tier3.
- spores/queens/corruptors will deter phoenixes. phoenix cant hit spores. herp derp. requires no micro and no gas until corruptors. heres a newflash for you guys: corruptor vs phoenix is hilarious to watch. corruptors own.
- core zerg units have terrible dps. lings\roach\muta are awful. adding infestor ptr FG dps is HUGE. imagine not sitting in your base defending til t3. you can do that on the ptr.
it would be OP if it wasnt a projectile, i also think the projectile micro adds more interesting gameplay to the zerg race, and allows for cool things like infestor drivebys. and remember if their army is dodging your fungal then they arent attacking, while the rest of yours is.
saying this is a nerf... i dont even know what to say except that when this patch goes live you will all look like idiots.
You're completely wrong. Progamer zergs have huge problems with balls of marines and the gateway colossus ball of death lategame.
No. Progamers have problems with balls of well microed marines, supported by sige tanks, and a couple of medivacs. Not with just mass a-moved marines.
And unfortunately, well microed marines staying inside siege tank lines, are already hard to fungal right now, and almost impossible to fungal post patch.
And yes, the gateway colossus deathball is quite an issue. But its the colossus (and void rays) that are the real issue, not the supporting gateway army.
spores/queens/corruptors will deter phoenixes. phoenix cant hit spores. herp derp. requires no micro and no gas until corruptors.
Phoenix cant hit spores, true, but spores also have quite terrible damage against phoenixes. You can have 3 spores in your mineral line, and 8 phoenixes can still come in, and kill every single one of your drones, and get away without major losses.
heres a newflash for you guys: corruptor vs phoenix is hilarious to watch. corruptors own.
Well I agree its hilarious, but the entertaining part is watching the slow clumsy corruptors trying to catch up and get a hit on the fast agile phoenixes, and just never managing to catch up
On March 03 2011 04:56 Mjolnir wrote: Now all the "buff" people will scream and say "You noob, learn to micro" or "You suck, learn to aim" except it's not about "learning" or "skill" when you're really just trying to guess at where/when the enemy is going to dodge or move to. Yes, sometimes you can force a situation where you can jam them up - but if they're worth their salt, they can avoid that (like Protoss Colossus death-balls creeping the map edges so they can block their army with FFs - people adapt to counters).
Predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop though, nearly all forms of marksmanship require this especially shooting a moving target or shooting from a moving vehicle. What is even your idea of "skill" if not this?
Infestors can kill masses of dudes by themselves now, medivac healing be damned.
You don't have to FG them and then try to run your baneling ball at them (and lose anyways if there are tanks around).
You may be able to skip banelings totally and plow all that gas into more Infestors to kill more Marines without ever getting near them.
It's not a pure buff or a pure nerf. It's a design change. Overall I think it makes them stronger simply because of the fact that now you can completely kill Marine balls from 9 range instead of having to run up to them through massive tank and Marine fire. Potentially you could win battles without ever taking damage - an impossibility in the muta/baneling age.
On March 03 2011 04:56 Mjolnir wrote: Now all the "buff" people will scream and say "You noob, learn to micro" or "You suck, learn to aim" except it's not about "learning" or "skill" when you're really just trying to guess at where/when the enemy is going to dodge or move to. Yes, sometimes you can force a situation where you can jam them up - but if they're worth their salt, they can avoid that (like Protoss Colossus death-balls creeping the map edges so they can block their army with FFs - people adapt to counters).
Predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop though, nearly all forms of marksmanship require this especially shooting a moving target or shooting from a moving vehicle. What is even your idea of "skill" if not this?
Great - so let's make all spells work that way, not just fungal.
In fact, we could make all splash attacks dodgeable, including siege tanks. Shouldn't I get a chance to show my skill by baiting and microing around them? Or would that perhaps completely defeat the object of a unit designed to deny ground to the enemy?
People don't seem to get that once your opponent sees where the FG is going they still have time to dodge it from 8-9 range. The chances of landing your FG is almost entirely out of your hands, you can predict where someone is going easily but he can see your prediction and react after you have already launched the FG, so against higher tier players FG is just not going to be effective at all except against a slow moving death ball ( not a siege push though as they cannot get in range before exploding to 2 tank shots ). The extra damage is great and all but making what was already a risky unit even more high risk means almost no-one will risk building it at a high level once they lose a few games to people dodging their FG shot despite having good "aim" due to the fact it can be dodged post firing, regardless of how good you are at predicting movements.
You can't see where someone fires a bullet and then dodge it either, this isn't the Matrix but if it was the Matrix I think we all know how useful bullets were there so thanks for that....
Look, if you have 1 infestor coming at you and throw a fungal at your ball of marines from range9 then sure, it's probably gonna be quite easy to dodge, but if you however have a wave of zerg units streaming in at the same time you'd be interested in moving away from them and thus you can, as zerg, predict the movement of the terran army and throw those fungals on the move to where it looks like their going, or if they stand still to just fire at your army you have targets that dont move - which are not hard to hit and will allow your army to get in a better position anyways.
You can force army movement in different ways which means you can predict movement and use PTR fungal more effectively. You can even force movement with the fungal and put your units in a more favorable position.
Btw it takes 4 sieged tankshots to kill a PTR infestor.
Why make zerg, the race which is already accepted as the hardest race to get good at, the only race with a skill-shot... Also let's make that skillshot not actually all that good compared to what the other races can do...
Realistically I can see FG being used more vs protoss balls, or vs high marauder play, but the gas cost of infestors will limit what can be combined with that kind of strat. I'm very curious to see whether the old TLO infestor+ling vs terran play can make a comeback, or possibly pure roach vs T, using FG to counter the inevitable marauder balls, and possibly throwing around some NP on tanks.
Overall I think we can't really pass judgment on it yet without further testing in high level games.
On March 03 2011 06:41 Tynan wrote:You may be able to skip banelings totally and plow all that gas into more Infestors to kill more Marines without ever getting near them.
You're already able to do that in 1.2. Except you could also defend your zerglings against helions and use the root to slow pushes long enough that you could morph banes if needed, or to give yourself more time to catch tanks on the move or marines out of position.
The only benefit to the higher DPS is to out damage medivacs. If he's got a lot of medivacs, you're going to want to spend your gas on muta's anyway to stop drops.
The +30% to armoured makes infestors more useful against Protoss. Why do we need to get any more complicated than that? Leave the 8 second root, with the lower DPS, but same damage so it's still a control spell, and take away the dumb missile that can be dodged and waste your energy.
Btw it takes 4 sieged tankshots to kill a PTR infestor.
quote from liquidpedia
The Range of the Siege Tank gets almost doubled from 7 to 13. However, it cannot shoot at anything in a 2 radius around itself. It does 35 (+15 armored) damage.
and patch notes
ZERG
Infestor - Health increased from 90 to 110.
So, the infester in PTR has 200 hp now? ( it only has 0 armor currently )
On March 03 2011 06:41 Tynan wrote: Overall I think it makes them stronger simply because of the fact that now you can completely kill Marine balls from 9 range instead of having to run up to them through massive tank and Marine fire. Potentially you could win battles without ever taking damage - an impossibility in the muta/baneling age.
How do you honestly post this? Damage done hasn't changed against marines. Infestors don't hit any harder, FG just acts more quickly. This is meaningless if you can kite the terran.
2 Fungals kill a marine. That's true before and after. Before the patch, you can't dodge a Fungal. After the patch you can.
Here's the difference. To kill a marine before the patch, you have to cast 2 FGs. To kill a marine after the patch, you have to land 2 FGs.
EDIT: it will take one more tank hit post-patch, but that brings it to 3, not 4.
Here's the difference. To kill a marine before the patch, you have to cast 2 FGs. To kill a marine after the patch, you have to land 2 FGs.
Well, one, as landing the second is just as hard in both cases after landing the first. Possibly easier on the PTR as you only need to do it two seconds later, not 4(6?).
On March 03 2011 07:41 Kyuki wrote: Look, if you have 1 infestor coming at you and throw a fungal at your ball of marines from range9 then sure, it's probably gonna be quite easy to dodge, but if you however have a wave of zerg units streaming in at the same time you'd be interested in moving away from them and thus you can, as zerg, predict the movement of the terran army and throw those fungals on the move to where it looks like their going, or if they stand still to just fire at your army you have targets that dont move - which are not hard to hit and will allow your army to get in a better position anyways.
You can force army movement in different ways which means you can predict movement and use PTR fungal more effectively. You can even force movement with the fungal and put your units in a more favorable position.
Btw it takes 4 sieged tankshots to kill a PTR infestor.
This. Basically it's "well I'm guessing he sure ain't gonna run TOWARDS my banelings to dodge the fungal"
Storm is already "dodgeable" - that makes it more interesting, not less. Especially since once fungal hits you, you're TRAPPED, I find it really interesting for it to work like this. And hey, it's doing more damage too (to things that have the necessary health)
It's not exactly a SLOW projectile, either. This isn't seeker missile (which, by the way, is still a joke imo -.-; 125 energy 6 range for a missile that can be dodged easily, or run into your own units... Stick with turrets and PDD imo...)
On March 03 2011 07:41 Kyuki wrote: Look, if you have 1 infestor coming at you and throw a fungal at your ball of marines from range9 then sure, it's probably gonna be quite easy to dodge, but if you however have a wave of zerg units streaming in at the same time you'd be interested in moving away from them and thus you can, as zerg, predict the movement of the terran army and throw those fungals on the move to where it looks like their going
No, you can't. Check the PTR videos.
Right now, an infestor outranges marines and fungal is instant, so it can fungal marines from outside their firing radius. Post-patch, the infestor has to be in range of where the fleeing marines will be when the fungal hits. Because the fungal projectile isn't much quicker than the marines can run, and the fungal's range is only four more than that of the marines, this requires the infestor to be within the marines' firing range when it shoots in order to be able to hit them when they run away. And if the zerg player guesses wrong as to whether the terran is going to run flat out or stutter-step, the infestor will miss and/or die.
This change might be acceptable if FG cost - say - half the energy to cast. Right now, as I said earlier, 150 gas for a one-shot short-range un-upgradable siege tank with a dodgeable, non-damage-stacking projectile seems a bit steep.
On March 03 2011 07:41 Kyuki wrote: Look, if you have 1 infestor coming at you and throw a fungal at your ball of marines from range9 then sure, it's probably gonna be quite easy to dodge, but if you however have a wave of zerg units streaming in at the same time you'd be interested in moving away from them and thus you can, as zerg, predict the movement of the terran army and throw those fungals on the move to where it looks like their going, or if they stand still to just fire at your army you have targets that dont move - which are not hard to hit and will allow your army to get in a better position anyways.
You can force army movement in different ways which means you can predict movement and use PTR fungal more effectively. You can even force movement with the fungal and put your units in a more favorable position.
Btw it takes 4 sieged tankshots to kill a PTR infestor.
So, for each fungal to land you have to sacrifice a wave of zerglings to tank fire?
Really, then it must be a buff, because before you only needed an infestor to FG, now you need to spend a few hundred minerals and several lings to accomplish the same thing! AND you have a not too low risk of missing! Great!
The Range of the Siege Tank gets almost doubled from 7 to 13. However, it cannot shoot at anything in a 2 radius around itself. It does 35 (+15 armored) damage.
I am really enjoying some of the Terran players in this thread complaining of the power that a T2 spellcaster unit has against their massed 50 mineral marines. Maybe this is the incentive Blizzard is giving to terran players to step out of their comfort zone and try something else and maybe be a bit more tactical, instead of a-moving marines into the zerg base. It seems fair to me.
On March 03 2011 06:41 Tynan wrote: Overall I think it makes them stronger simply because of the fact that now you can completely kill Marine balls from 9 range instead of having to run up to them through massive tank and Marine fire. Potentially you could win battles without ever taking damage - an impossibility in the muta/baneling age.
How do you honestly post this? Damage done hasn't changed against marines. Infestors don't hit any harder, FG just acts more quickly. This is meaningless if you can kite the terran.
2 Fungals kill a marine. That's true before and after. Before the patch, you can't dodge a Fungal. After the patch you can.
Here's the difference. To kill a marine before the patch, you have to cast 2 FGs. To kill a marine after the patch, you have to land 2 FGs.
EDIT: it will take one more tank hit post-patch, but that brings it to 3, not 4.
Time matters. Currently you have to fungal marines, wait a little over 4 seconds, then run in and fungal again. That's enough time for the terran to react, send infantry to attack the infestor, and so on and so forth.
Now you only have to hit im just over 2 seconds apart. That's just a few heartbeats, much harder for the terran to react meaningfully to that.
And, of course, there's the medivac healing difference.
Also, 3 fungals can now kill a tank.
btw, you'll never miss the second fungal. The targets can't move. He has to dodge the first one. If his Marines are in front instead of his tanks, it will likely hit him from outside his sight radius. So unless he is in the process of microing the target marines (possible), you'll hit them.
Anyways, all theory. Interested to see how this plays out.
On March 03 2011 09:56 Tynan wrote: Anyways, all theory. Interested to see how this plays out.
For sure.
I'm sure this conversation is mostly pointless, because with the current, under-developed status of the Infestor, it'll be awfully hard to call it a buff or nerf by the time play evolves to the point that it's understood.
I expect it will remain a gimmick unit, there are so many ways to counter it's always-limited use.
Just thought I would throw a couple things out there.
1. I usually see Terrans slowly push and Zergs have to commit with some kind of attack on the seiged Terran position to try and stop their push. This means the new added dps is super important because in a normal time when you are trying to stop a Terran rooted and seiged in a spot that is slowly advancing, you can't engage, FG, retreat, wait till it is over, and then engage again. That was a major weakness of the old FG. The current FG helps tremendously because when you decide to make the big engagement against that scary push, your FG's will actually be useful in dealing damage AND they prevent the stutter step.
2. About the dodgeableness of the missile, I will say this. You might have to use 2 FGs when you needed to use 1, because a couple or a few missiles become increasingly harder to dodge. Sure you have to be closer, but this could be a very good thing in the long run. Also, I think it will make the tension of the game much better on the commentating side (although I'm sure you guys dont c are about it). We keep talking about how we miss our reavers, and scourges, and lurkers because of their tension potential. Well, I can't wait until in the high levels I start freaking out over missiles that could miss or hit and change the whole outcome of the game.
On March 03 2011 07:41 Kyuki wrote: Look, if you have 1 infestor coming at you and throw a fungal at your ball of marines from range9 then sure, it's probably gonna be quite easy to dodge, but if you however have a wave of zerg units streaming in at the same time you'd be interested in moving away from them and thus you can, as zerg, predict the movement of the terran army and throw those fungals on the move to where it looks like their going, or if they stand still to just fire at your army you have targets that dont move - which are not hard to hit and will allow your army to get in a better position anyways.
You can force army movement in different ways which means you can predict movement and use PTR fungal more effectively. You can even force movement with the fungal and put your units in a more favorable position.
Btw it takes 4 sieged tankshots to kill a PTR infestor.
So, for each fungal to land you have to sacrifice a wave of zerglings to tank fire?
Really, then it must be a buff, because before you only needed an infestor to FG, now you need to spend a few hundred minerals and several lings to accomplish the same thing! AND you have a not too low risk of missing! Great!
It's been said so many times throughout this thread it's getting kind of dull to repeat. Why would you "sacc" a bunch of lings "just to land a FG"? The point would rather be to move in (like you do with ling/bane/muta to crush a push, but with infestors/rest of your units and drop fungals on the move while you run in. You see this today aswell but to a lesser extent and in PTR form it's far more potent.
Why use the spell the same way you do today, when you're given something that would work better if you used it differently? (read the thread btw, shit is getting far to repetetive...)
On March 03 2011 04:56 Mjolnir wrote: Now all the "buff" people will scream and say "You noob, learn to micro" or "You suck, learn to aim" except it's not about "learning" or "skill" when you're really just trying to guess at where/when the enemy is going to dodge or move to. Yes, sometimes you can force a situation where you can jam them up - but if they're worth their salt, they can avoid that (like Protoss Colossus death-balls creeping the map edges so they can block their army with FFs - people adapt to counters).
Predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop though, nearly all forms of marksmanship require this especially shooting a moving target or shooting from a moving vehicle. What is even your idea of "skill" if not this?
I think what he's saying is that even though people say zergs are going to get better at using the new missile FG, the other races are also going to get better at dodging it too, so it all evens out and it's back to a guessing game for zerg (with a smaller margin of error than with the previous version of the FG) where a wrong guess might mean a waste of gas investment at best and a loss at worst.
On March 03 2011 09:21 sylverfyre wrote: Storm is already "dodgeable" - that makes it more interesting, not less. Especially since once fungal hits you, you're TRAPPED, I find it really interesting for it to work like this. And hey, it's doing more damage too (to things that have the necessary health)
It's not exactly a SLOW projectile, either. This isn't seeker missile (which, by the way, is still a joke imo -.-; 125 energy 6 range for a missile that can be dodged easily, or run into your own units... Stick with turrets and PDD imo...)
You can't compare FG to Storm because if you miss with Storm it still has the possibility to do damage since it "remains" in the area where you cast it where units can still move to and take damage. FG is an all or nothing spell which doesn't do anything if it doesn't land.
On March 03 2011 07:41 Kyuki wrote: Look, if you have 1 infestor coming at you and throw a fungal at your ball of marines from range9 then sure, it's probably gonna be quite easy to dodge, but if you however have a wave of zerg units streaming in at the same time you'd be interested in moving away from them and thus you can, as zerg, predict the movement of the terran army and throw those fungals on the move to where it looks like their going, or if they stand still to just fire at your army you have targets that dont move - which are not hard to hit and will allow your army to get in a better position anyways.
You can force army movement in different ways which means you can predict movement and use PTR fungal more effectively. You can even force movement with the fungal and put your units in a more favorable position.
Btw it takes 4 sieged tankshots to kill a PTR infestor.
So, for each fungal to land you have to sacrifice a wave of zerglings to tank fire?
Really, then it must be a buff, because before you only needed an infestor to FG, now you need to spend a few hundred minerals and several lings to accomplish the same thing! AND you have a not too low risk of missing! Great!
It's been said so many times throughout this thread it's getting kind of dull to repeat. Why would you "sacc" a bunch of lings "just to land a FG"? The point would rather be to move in (like you do with ling/bane/muta to crush a push, but with infestors/rest of your units and drop fungals on the move while you run in. You see this today aswell but to a lesser extent and in PTR form it's far more potent.
If you drop fungals on the move while you run in, you'll be dropping them on your own units. Remember: if you are chasing your opponent you have to be much, much closer than 9 range in order to be able to fire a sufficiently leading shot. It's going to be very, very hard to get that close without actually sending the infestors in first. Trying to chase down your opponent is the absolute worst way to use PTR fungal growth.
On March 03 2011 06:26 Treemonkeys wrote: Predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop though, nearly all forms of marksmanship require this especially shooting a moving target or shooting from a moving vehicle. What is even your idea of "skill" if not this?
I am interested on how the new "Fungal Growth" is going to effect ZvZ. Mutas move so quickly it will be hard at first to lead your target properly.
Other than that I feel that people say "Marines+Stim=impossible to hit." It will be like that at first but someone will master the infestor fairly quickly or you could just flank fungal the marines, maurader, tank ball and run in with your bane/ling.
On March 03 2011 06:26 Treemonkeys wrote: Predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop though, nearly all forms of marksmanship require this especially shooting a moving target or shooting from a moving vehicle. What is even your idea of "skill" if not this?
This seems accurate. Although it could be argued that "predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop," it appears that the majority of the time, your infestors will need to cross into the siege line in order to land the perfect shot. Dead infestors don't care how accurate your fungal growth aim is.
Having a projectile cast on this spell may very well nerf it into oblivion if latency allows for players to dodge the spell. I also subscribe to the Mr. Bitter school of thought that reducing the duration will likely be a nerf as well.
On March 03 2011 07:41 Kyuki wrote: Look, if you have 1 infestor coming at you and throw a fungal at your ball of marines from range9 then sure, it's probably gonna be quite easy to dodge, but if you however have a wave of zerg units streaming in at the same time you'd be interested in moving away from them and thus you can, as zerg, predict the movement of the terran army and throw those fungals on the move to where it looks like their going, or if they stand still to just fire at your army you have targets that dont move - which are not hard to hit and will allow your army to get in a better position anyways.
You can force army movement in different ways which means you can predict movement and use PTR fungal more effectively. You can even force movement with the fungal and put your units in a more favorable position.
Btw it takes 4 sieged tankshots to kill a PTR infestor.
So, for each fungal to land you have to sacrifice a wave of zerglings to tank fire?
Really, then it must be a buff, because before you only needed an infestor to FG, now you need to spend a few hundred minerals and several lings to accomplish the same thing! AND you have a not too low risk of missing! Great!
Why use the spell the same way you do today, when you're given something that would work better if you used it differently? (read the thread btw, shit is getting far to repetetive...)
Coming from a person who doesn't play zerg nor has experimented with PTR infestor, You wouldn't know if it was a nerf or a buff ! It doesn't mean much but I play at 3.4k masters on EU and have been massing games on PTR. My conclusion is this, the current state of the infestor on PTR is unusable, period. Why is it unusable? The combination of different stats that make it useless at the current state, both in direct and indirect ways. For the current costs and its current "stats" the infestor is a really inefficient + ineffective unit.
Direct: priority in battle, armor type, projectile speed, range, hp, dmg, duration of spells Indirect: build-time, gas cost, research time of spells
If blizzard wants to make the game "more skilled" aka keep the projectile while nerfing the lockdown, they have to play around with other stats (ie, build time, gas usage, armor type, range, faster projectile, bigger radius etc etc etc)
Hmm. Don't flak me bro, I discuss balance like a .. silverback.
Fungal 2.
If it really makes it so that Terran will want to get ghosts, then we are a bit closer to balance, but I think the balancing gods has once again hit us with a bat claiming shhhhh, it's for your own good.
If you've played the game then you know that the matchups are different in that two races forcing the other one to get certain tech. For instance; you can't get only zerglings and win when he has a critical mass of bio. This is what makes the game progress in tech as you both also get more income and supply.
We all know that zerg today forces no response from terran, whatever units they go for. (Just stop picketing at my exaggeration and try to understand what I'm getting at) The answer is always marines with tanks. This composition of two different units in turn forces Zerg to get at least 6 different units, that are microed differently, just to be able to survive. In certain conditions.
Even when you have this composition with all flavours of zerg, you still need to do a skillful tactical maneuver dropping, flanking, retreating, reinforcing, and remember, he still controls only two types of units. If zerg just got a way to force terran to change his composition, the game would be more like a strategy game instead of a game of catch the tornado using only your pelvis. It's just how I feel when I play them, and I know I'm always exaggerating an entire lot, it's just my way of keeping sane. (Mostly in the face of 100% invincible walls into unstoppable push from another matchup, that is currently giving me very real nightmares.)
The thing is, I think the problem might be that there's nothig to do about tanks. Which is why i'm worried that another way of slaughtering marines will not fix what's wrong. There is a counter to marines, now there's two, but why is there no zerg unit that can do well against a tank? Mutalisk comes in here, and now you have to use a harassing unit, that is expensive and has almost no combat abilities, losing head to head with any unit that can hit it back. And most importantly, this forces nothing from the Terran. He has marines. They kill mutalisk.
The metagame can't rely on the terran being sloppy and always leving his tank without marines. It just shouldn't happen. I simply propose this; when there are tanks with marine support sieged somewhere, there should be a way, a unit, an upgrade, something to break it witout throwing more money on it than them. Not an easy way, just a way at all to do it, that requires him to in turn get something else. Terran in sc2 can lose units just as Zerg in sc1, keep on living, while zerg can't lose a single important battle, both just because, in my oppinion, the tank.
The matchup isn't completely imbalanced, just dosen't incite a playful game. Just as ZvP today is without exceptions this: P gets 2 bases, then builds up his (and all the others) favourite perfect army that, even if you have 8 bases, endless income, endless larvae, endless spinecrawlers, you just can't stop. His units counter that, with their RAW DAMAGE. That is so much worse that I feel just silly talking about ZvT.
Rant over, I didn't want to offend anyone, please don't misunderstand me.
shows good and bad things about it. Definitely engaging balls seems better.
Not as bad as i thought. I mean the missile that is. Other than that the games were pretty biased. I know 1 thing for sure : Your bw didn't have lan latency. God how horrible it was when playing this game back in the early stages ! :p
Mutas won't do shit. I can see it on this video alone. Mutas aren't really worth it. Infestors still hard counter them.
On March 03 2011 06:26 Treemonkeys wrote: Predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop though, nearly all forms of marksmanship require this especially shooting a moving target or shooting from a moving vehicle. What is even your idea of "skill" if not this?
This seems accurate. Although it could be argued that "predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop," it appears that the majority of the time, your infestors will need to cross into the siege line in order to land the perfect shot. Dead infestors don't care how accurate your fungal growth aim is.
Having a projectile cast on this spell may very well nerf it into oblivion if latency allows for players to dodge the spell. I also subscribe to the Mr. Bitter school of thought that reducing the duration will likely be a nerf as well.
That is also true of the old infestor, it was never very good against siege tanks. There is no reason the terran will keep his marines out in front like that, if he is going against heavy infestor play he is going to keep his marines right next to his tanks and you won't be able to fungal them with the new infestor or the old one. If marines are moving to and from the siege line, then you want want to lead your shots when the marines are moving away from the siege not towards it like the worst-case pictures posted.
But yes, you try this, and he might dodge it. But pure infestor was never good against marine/tank, not on the PTR and not with the old infestor. So we really should be thinking about how the new infestor works with ling/bling/infestor, or a different combo, and not just pure infestor.
The bonus of the new fungal, is that when you are dealing with marine/tank and he is keeping his marines close to the tanks, you can now fungal everything and do more damage to the tanks at least.
I think it must be a good thing that terran can dodge it though, it gives him somthing to do, and it's something important that he really really wants to do. Only if he is dodging a fungal, he's not targeting his siege on your banelings at the same time, it gives him more he has to worry about. With the old infestor, all he has to worry about is slow pushing and abusing range by keeping his marines right next to his leapfrogging tanks, your infestors will remain completely useless. You can bumrush him with everything, using lings and blings to take damage and make fungals possible, but the fungal is only good for a delay, deals damage too slowly, and quite likely still will not hit the marines of a fast terran. He can ignore the infestors in this situation, and just focus down the lings and blings, because by the time the infestors would have been able to deal enough damage, your ling/bling is already dead, and he can now easily clean up your infestors though realistically they will run and hide back in your base while you lose precious ground between your base and the siege line.
With the new fungal, you can at least bum rush and actually deal damage with your infestors, to both the marines and the tanks, the tanks which definitely will not be dodging it, and if he is tying to focus down a baneling ball at the same time, as well as getting surrounded by lings, you will likely be fungal some marines too. The lower duration is a buff because it allows the infestor to deal significant damage in the lifespan of a ling/bling army. With the old infestor the delay was great for...delaying, but in a straight up fight by the time it deals significant damage, your supporting army is already dead.
It will be interesting to see how good people get at dodging it and abusing it, but from what I have tried so far it is just so much better at dealing with marine/tank.
On March 03 2011 19:00 osten wrote: Even when you have this composition with all flavours of zerg, you still need to do a skillful tactical maneuver dropping, flanking, retreating, reinforcing, and remember, he still controls only two types of units. If zerg just got a way to force terran to change his composition, the game would be more like a strategy game instead of a game of catch the tornado using only your pelvis. It's just how I feel when I play them, and I know I'm always exaggerating an entire lot, it's just my way of keeping sane. (Mostly in the face of 100% invincible walls into unstoppable push from another matchup, that is currently giving me very real nightmares.)
So true, and great way to put it. Zerg really needs a way to FORCE terran to tech certain ways, this makes the matchup more interesting and allows it to evolve. Right now all zerg can force terran to do is build missile turrets and a stronger wall if he goes all in, maybe some marauders with an all in roach rush. But as far as tech, terran has plenty of options. If the new infestor is good enough to force ghost, that will be a great thing for the matchup, because that is less gas that he can spend on other things as he pleases, and the matchup will evolve towards unknown areas after that point.
The matchup is very bland for zerg right now because of how terran can use mineral only marines to force blings and/or infestors and he can support the marines with almost anything else. This is because blings/infestors only barely hold off skilled marines. There is nothing zerg can do to stomp marines into the ground and say "time to build somehting else if you want to win".
On March 03 2011 06:26 Treemonkeys wrote: Predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop though, nearly all forms of marksmanship require this especially shooting a moving target or shooting from a moving vehicle. What is even your idea of "skill" if not this?
This seems accurate. Although it could be argued that "predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop," it appears that the majority of the time, your infestors will need to cross into the siege line in order to land the perfect shot. Dead infestors don't care how accurate your fungal growth aim is.
Having a projectile cast on this spell may very well nerf it into oblivion if latency allows for players to dodge the spell. I also subscribe to the Mr. Bitter school of thought that reducing the duration will likely be a nerf as well.
That is also true of the old infestor, it was never very good against siege tanks. There is no reason the terran will keep his marines out in front like that, if he is going against heavy infestor play he is going to keep his marines right next to his tanks and you won't be able to fungal them with the new infestor or the old one. If marines are moving to and from the siege line, then you want want to lead your shots when the marines are moving away from the siege not towards it like the worst-case pictures posted.
Who would send infestors in first to take the tank shots?
On March 03 2011 06:26 Treemonkeys wrote: Predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop though, nearly all forms of marksmanship require this especially shooting a moving target or shooting from a moving vehicle. What is even your idea of "skill" if not this?
This seems accurate. Although it could be argued that "predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop," it appears that the majority of the time, your infestors will need to cross into the siege line in order to land the perfect shot. Dead infestors don't care how accurate your fungal growth aim is.
Having a projectile cast on this spell may very well nerf it into oblivion if latency allows for players to dodge the spell. I also subscribe to the Mr. Bitter school of thought that reducing the duration will likely be a nerf as well.
That is also true of the old infestor, it was never very good against siege tanks. There is no reason the terran will keep his marines out in front like that, if he is going against heavy infestor play he is going to keep his marines right next to his tanks and you won't be able to fungal them with the new infestor or the old one. If marines are moving to and from the siege line, then you want want to lead your shots when the marines are moving away from the siege not towards it like the worst-case pictures posted.
Who would send infestors in first to take the tank shots?
On February 26 2011 12:21 shaby23 wrote: Does that means that Vs Terran infestor will be a must???
It will probably be a must for all match-ups now. Be prepared to go toe to toe with ghosts trying to EMP your Infestors.
I've been waiting for this for a long, long time. Paired with the change to Khaydarin Amulet, this will prompt more Terrans to start using Ghosts. Hopefully.
I've also wanted the Infestor to be a little more useful against Protoss. I guess I got my wish.
On March 03 2011 06:26 Treemonkeys wrote: Predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop though, nearly all forms of marksmanship require this especially shooting a moving target or shooting from a moving vehicle. What is even your idea of "skill" if not this?
This seems accurate. Although it could be argued that "predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop," it appears that the majority of the time, your infestors will need to cross into the siege line in order to land the perfect shot. Dead infestors don't care how accurate your fungal growth aim is.
Having a projectile cast on this spell may very well nerf it into oblivion if latency allows for players to dodge the spell. I also subscribe to the Mr. Bitter school of thought that reducing the duration will likely be a nerf as well.
That is also true of the old infestor, it was never very good against siege tanks. There is no reason the terran will keep his marines out in front like that, if he is going against heavy infestor play he is going to keep his marines right next to his tanks and you won't be able to fungal them with the new infestor or the old one. If marines are moving to and from the siege line, then you want want to lead your shots when the marines are moving away from the siege not towards it like the worst-case pictures posted.
Who would send infestors in first to take the tank shots?
I dunno, the guy who made those screen shots?
Someone who doesn't want to commit to an attack and just wants to stall the advancement?
On March 03 2011 07:41 Kyuki wrote: Look, if you have 1 infestor coming at you and throw a fungal at your ball of marines from range9 then sure, it's probably gonna be quite easy to dodge, but if you however have a wave of zerg units streaming in at the same time you'd be interested in moving away from them and thus you can, as zerg, predict the movement of the terran army and throw those fungals on the move to where it looks like their going, or if they stand still to just fire at your army you have targets that dont move - which are not hard to hit and will allow your army to get in a better position anyways.
You can force army movement in different ways which means you can predict movement and use PTR fungal more effectively. You can even force movement with the fungal and put your units in a more favorable position.
Btw it takes 4 sieged tankshots to kill a PTR infestor.
So, for each fungal to land you have to sacrifice a wave of zerglings to tank fire?
Really, then it must be a buff, because before you only needed an infestor to FG, now you need to spend a few hundred minerals and several lings to accomplish the same thing! AND you have a not too low risk of missing! Great!
It's been said so many times throughout this thread it's getting kind of dull to repeat. Why would you "sacc" a bunch of lings "just to land a FG"? The point would rather be to move in (like you do with ling/bane/muta to crush a push, but with infestors/rest of your units and drop fungals on the move while you run in. You see this today aswell but to a lesser extent and in PTR form it's far more potent.
Why use the spell the same way you do today, when you're given something that would work better if you used it differently? (read the thread btw, shit is getting far to repetetive...)
Because then I can use my gas on anything else? If I want to do DPS I will spend my gas on other units, not the infestor. If I have a CHANCE of hitting some units to do a certain DPS and then the unit is useless for 2 minutes, or a chance to do some DPS with, like, 6 roaches or 3 Hydras or something, and actually have the unit be useful for more than 4 seconds?
On February 26 2011 12:21 shaby23 wrote: Does that means that Vs Terran infestor will be a must???
It will probably be a must for all match-ups now. Be prepared to go toe to toe with ghosts trying to EMP your Infestors.
I've been waiting for this for a long, long time. Paired with the change to Khaydarin Amulet, this will prompt more Terrans to start using Ghosts. Hopefully.
I've also wanted the Infestor to be a little more useful against Protoss. I guess I got my wish.
That I can agree with, but even then, WHY the infestor? Why not any other unit? Why sacrifice this unit utility in everything else so it can better deal with Colossus balls?
I can't understand Blizzard. They won't add the Lurker back because it does "the same job as the baneling" and then they change the ONE unit who has a pretty distinct and unique job to do more of the same that everyone else does. Even DRONES do DPS, but I don't know any other unit that can stall a push like the infestor does today.
I wonder if there is a Muta synergy we are overlooking here.
The Terran wants to keep his tanks in front because then they can hit the Infestors before the Infestors can FG the Marines behind.
Then you send in the Mutas at the front. Start picking at the tanks.
Terran stims his Marines forward. As they chase the Mutas forward, you toss a Fungal from just outside of siege range.
So Terran basically has to decide between leaving his Marines in front and letting FG rape them, or leaving his Tanks in front and letting Mutas rape them.
On March 04 2011 04:08 Tynan wrote: I wonder if there is a Muta synergy we are overlooking here.
The Terran wants to keep his tanks in front because then they can hit the Infestors before the Infestors can FG the Marines behind.
Then you send in the Mutas at the front. Start picking at the tanks.
Terran stims his Marines forward. As they chase the Mutas forward, you toss a Fungal from just outside of siege range.
So Terran basically has to decide between leaving his Marines in front and letting FG rape them, or leaving his Tanks in front and letting Mutas rape them.
Just an idea.... (not tested).
Two things, mid-game you cannot afford both mutas and infestors, that's way too much money to invest in tech, you will have too few of either mutas or infestors. Secondly, tanks out-range fungal and it doesn't have a projectile to do it's damage, does it instantly.
On March 04 2011 04:08 Tynan wrote: I wonder if there is a Muta synergy we are overlooking here.
The Terran wants to keep his tanks in front because then they can hit the Infestors before the Infestors can FG the Marines behind.
Then you send in the Mutas at the front. Start picking at the tanks.
Terran stims his Marines forward. As they chase the Mutas forward, you toss a Fungal from just outside of siege range.
So Terran basically has to decide between leaving his Marines in front and letting FG rape them, or leaving his Tanks in front and letting Mutas rape them.
Just an idea.... (not tested).
Tanks have 13 range.
Marines 5.
Mutas 3.
Infestors 9.
Even you are in the very edge of your range tanks will still own your infestors.
On March 03 2011 06:26 Treemonkeys wrote: Predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop though, nearly all forms of marksmanship require this especially shooting a moving target or shooting from a moving vehicle. What is even your idea of "skill" if not this?
Well, i'm still not sure how i should welcome that change, but i'm pretty sure of one thing tho, theory is theory, and people arguing so hard their point like that is kind of foolish.
I can't wait to test it, damn you blizzard for let only Americans play on PTR ! :D
Infestor pit 100mineral/100gas ~ You only need 2 infestors in your army to make your army infinity stronger than terran because terran can not kite anymore. 200mineral/300gas.
Vs if you want to spend all that on muta. 200 mineral/200 gas for spire. now you left with 100mineral/200gas, I'll give you 2 mutas. Try to do some damage with that 2 mutas. Can't even take out 4marines.
On March 04 2011 04:33 whomybuddy wrote: total amount of mineral 300 gas 400
Infestor pit 100mineral/100gas ~ You only need 2 infestors in your army to make your army infinity stronger than terran because terran can not kite anymore. 200mineral/300gas.
Vs if you want to spend all that on muta. 200 mineral/200 gas for spire. now you left with 100mineral/200gas, I'll give you 2 mutas. Try to do some damage with that 2 mutas. Can't even take out 4marines.
Yes, it's best to evaluate the strength of units based on their head to head combat in small numbers and ignore the time in the game the units are on the field and the synergy that units might have with other units except in the case of the infestor since all your other units will be "infinity stronger" with infestors no matter how many or how few you have or how much energy they have or the cost of necessary upgrades you put into them.
I think it's a nice change just for how it allows for future infestor changes. It always was a problematic unit, really: it shut down some types of airplay, shut down some types of drops; it could delay pushes with FG or win battles with neural parasite, yet it would nearly always die too quickly. At least now it's less good in small encounters, but still somehow stronger, so it becomes a more mainstream balanceable unit. Also, you honestly can do with 4 seconds to flank or get banelings in if you're on the point with your unit control, in that regard 8 seconds was too powerful. It also prevented the terran from microing for a long time, and I guess Blizzard knows from WoW that lengthy crowd control isn't fun.
That's why I think the change to shorter time + projectile is good, design-wise. Balance wise it might be different, but I think some people are hoping to balance zerg through the infestor, when it's really not enough of a core unit for that. It might become that if some of the changes turn out favorable, and then you can have a better idea of how to change the infestor to change zerg as a whole, but not until then.
I do hope they turn out strong: ghost vs infestor is a fun kind of mini-game; you might try to hide your infestors with burrow, but then a player could draw them out with threatening an attack. If you knew where they were, you could scan and EMP. Zerg would have to spread infestors out, yet still have detection around to protect them, and so on. It's a very tactical type of gameplay and it might turn out some players will show good handling of such things and use it to win games, where they before wouldn't have had good enough macro or so.
Last idea: if you want infestors to be able to kill medivacs with one fungal: let infested terrans slow units they shoot at. That way, if you spawn 1 infested terran right on time you might be able to kill the medivac after all.
On March 04 2011 05:11 Grumbels wrote: I think it's a nice change just for how it allows for future infestor changes. It always was a problematic unit, really: it shut down some types of airplay, shut down some types of drops. It could deny pushes with the lengthy snare, yet it couldn't actually since it would die too quickly. It could change the battle with neural parasites, yet could never get in range without dying, and so on. At least now it's less good in small encounters, but still somehow stronger, so it becomes a more mainstream balanceable unit. Also, you honestly can do with 4 seconds to flank or get banelings in if you're on the point with your unit control, in that regard 8 seconds was too powerful. It also prevented the terran from microing for a long time, and I guess Blizzard knows from WoW that lengthy crowd control isn't fun.
^this
I think infestors shut down air units more than blizzard intended as well as being a little problematic in that the ability was only useful for the root. The damage increase isn't all that important but it's a nicer thing than a straight up nerf.
The projectile thing isn't a huge deal. Once you get used to it, it will hardly be any different. Marines are pretty much the only things that could micro out of it, and even then you could use that to your advantage by getting a T player to use stim way too early by not engaging.
I wouldn't be surprised if the end result was a faster projectile than the PTR with a slightly longer root duration(like 5 seconds)
Overall I hope it leads to a more interesting trend in unit composition for zerg players. Currently zerg unit comps are mainly 2 or 3 units. (such as ling/bling or roach/hydra)
On March 04 2011 03:57 Jotoco wrote: Someone who doesn't want to commit to an attack and just wants to stall the advancement?
Like, everybody who uses infestors today?
Which is something the old infestor could never do vs. marine/tank, and this thread is comparing the two infestors. Any competent terran is going to be leapfrogging his tanks while keeping his marines right next them so you will never, ever get in fungal range without taking take fire. They only way to deal with this situation if you have already commited to infestor play is to rush in and use lings to tank while you try to fungal and baneling the marines, and/or NP the tanks. Because the new infestor does damage quicker, does more damage to the tanks, and has more health, it is much much better at this job than the old one was. I think the projectile will prove to also be helpful in both leading against marines and forcing the terran to have something else to worry about.
I think infestors shut down air units more than blizzard intended as well as being a little problematic in that the ability was only useful for the root.... Overall I hope it leads to a more interesting trend in unit composition for zerg players. Currently zerg unit comps are mainly 2 or 3 units. (such as ling/bling or roach/hydra)
Which is precisely the problem with the new infestor. Now that it can't handle air (or helions) as well or delay pushes as well, it's harder for infestor to be your first choice at lair tech. Forcing you into muta play. Which doesn't do much to break the muta / ling / baneling play.
On March 04 2011 05:30 kawazu wrote: The projectile thing isn't a huge deal. Once you get used to it, it will hardly be any different. Marines are pretty much the only things that could micro out of it
Marines are kind of a big deal also it's a lot worse against things like hellions, mutas, pheoni and dropships.
Overall I hope it leads to a more interesting trend in unit composition for zerg players. Currently zerg unit comps are mainly 2 or 3 units. (such as ling/bling or roach/hydra)
The issue is it's now much worse against things like air, drop play and harass which means I now need to always go mutalisks, this role change is actually going to narrow down the builds I can use as I only have enough gas for mutas or infestors and I need someway to hit air, stop drops and drive off harass.
On March 04 2011 06:57 Gobbles wrote: Does PDD now stop fungal since it is a projectile? I am not on PTR, does anyone know? That would make PDD retarded good.
I did not get a chance to test this in the official PTR (it's down now, I think) but I recreated a fungal growth with 2.25 damage at 0.25 period (double damage rate) in the map editor. I'm sure it has the same effect, as marines would take 36 damage over 4 seconds at double the previous rate.
(Edit: changing the wording here to be more accurate, also not slam the guy so hard.)
It's important to note that what OP says about medivac healing is EXACTLY accurate. That is, medivacs don't outheal it. It doesn't outdamage them either, though--At least for marines, SCVs and ghosts, as it slightly does for marauders, but not significantly so.
Medivacs heal at a rate of about 9-10 HP per second, while fungal deals 36 damage over 4 seconds. A medivac will still heal a marine to nearly full every tick where fungal deals damage (well, sort of; I believe medivacs get 3 ticks for 3.33 HP per second while fungal is 4 ticks for 2.25, so it goes back and forth). Even if the change is actually 4.5 damage ticks with the same period, you'd get the same net result.
So really, it still comes down to 150 energy killing one ball of marines, except the ones being healed. Except now it happens slightly faster (doesn't matter much since they can't reach you), and then there's the large nerf associated with the projectile effectively reducing the range and accuracy of the spell.
one thing that i've been reading a lot..about damage increasing..the damage does not increase..and i think that if u want a good dps from the infestors,u kinda need to mass them..vs marines,ok,no prob,they will die with the second FG..lings again,don't know if they are able to regen 2 hp,i think it's 1 hp every 5 or 4 secs,so they will get oneshoted,If u hit them..but against a toss ball..as someone stated above,u need 5 fungals for a stalker to get killed..which is 3 infesstors at least..keeping in mind that u need to have them with full energy,since when one spawns has 75 energy(upgraded)..i can;t see how this is a buff since zerg used to be a reactonary race,where i could see a deathball of rines or toss and counter it if u have to make an infestation pit every game to have infestors 50 secs later.. now,all i have to do vs terran,get muttas for harassing,fungal rines to get good positions as tanks blah blah..against toss stop blink stalkers etc.. and one thing that's nice..in zvz it's gonna get a bit difficult to shut down mutas,since with some infestors u can kill massess of mutas..and completely change the game..
EPT
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