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On March 04 2011 04:08 Tynan wrote:
I wonder if there is a Muta synergy we are overlooking here.
The Terran wants to keep his tanks in front because then they can hit the Infestors before the Infestors can FG the Marines behind.
Then you send in the Mutas at the front. Start picking at the tanks.
Terran stims his Marines forward. As they chase the Mutas forward, you toss a Fungal from just outside of siege range.
So Terran basically has to decide between leaving his Marines in front and letting FG rape them, or leaving his Tanks in front and letting Mutas rape them.
Just an idea.... (not tested).
Two things, mid-game you cannot afford both mutas and infestors, that's way too much money to invest in tech, you will have too few of either mutas or infestors. Secondly, tanks out-range fungal and it doesn't have a projectile to do it's damage, does it instantly.
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On March 04 2011 04:08 Tynan wrote:
I wonder if there is a Muta synergy we are overlooking here.
The Terran wants to keep his tanks in front because then they can hit the Infestors before the Infestors can FG the Marines behind.
Then you send in the Mutas at the front. Start picking at the tanks.
Terran stims his Marines forward. As they chase the Mutas forward, you toss a Fungal from just outside of siege range.
So Terran basically has to decide between leaving his Marines in front and letting FG rape them, or leaving his Tanks in front and letting Mutas rape them.
Just an idea.... (not tested).
Tanks have 13 range.
Marines 5.
Mutas 3.
Infestors 9.
Even you are in the very edge of your range tanks will still own your infestors.
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On March 03 2011 12:47 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 06:26 Treemonkeys wrote:
Predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop though, nearly all forms of marksmanship require this especially shooting a moving target or shooting from a moving vehicle. What is even your idea of "skill" if not this? Current fungal ![[image loading]](http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/7149/screenshot2011030304430.jpg) Where you will have to aim to land a fungal ![[image loading]](http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/5634/screenshot2011030304431.jpg) The result ![[image loading]](http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/5634/screenshot2011030304431.jpg)
OMG, I loled so freaking hard!
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Well, i'm still not sure how i should welcome that change, but i'm pretty sure of one thing tho, theory is theory, and people arguing so hard their point like that is kind of foolish.
I can't wait to test it, damn you blizzard for let only Americans play on PTR ! :D
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total amount of mineral 300 gas 400
Infestor pit 100mineral/100gas ~ You only need 2 infestors in your army to make your army infinity stronger than terran because terran can not kite anymore. 200mineral/300gas.
Vs if you want to spend all that on muta. 200 mineral/200 gas for spire. now you left with 100mineral/200gas, I'll give you 2 mutas. Try to do some damage with that 2 mutas. Can't even take out 4marines.
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On March 04 2011 04:33 whomybuddy wrote:
total amount of mineral 300 gas 400
Infestor pit 100mineral/100gas ~ You only need 2 infestors in your army to make your army infinity stronger than terran because terran can not kite anymore. 200mineral/300gas.
Vs if you want to spend all that on muta. 200 mineral/200 gas for spire. now you left with 100mineral/200gas, I'll give you 2 mutas. Try to do some damage with that 2 mutas. Can't even take out 4marines.
Yes, it's best to evaluate the strength of units based on their head to head combat in small numbers and ignore the time in the game the units are on the field and the synergy that units might have with other units except in the case of the infestor since all your other units will be "infinity stronger" with infestors no matter how many or how few you have or how much energy they have or the cost of necessary upgrades you put into them.
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I ahve a question to the PTR users. How fast is the projectile? is it like a Stalker shot or is it more like HSM?
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I think it's a nice change just for how it allows for future infestor changes. It always was a problematic unit, really: it shut down some types of airplay, shut down some types of drops; it could delay pushes with FG or win battles with neural parasite, yet it would nearly always die too quickly.
At least now it's less good in small encounters, but still somehow stronger, so it becomes a more mainstream balanceable unit. Also, you honestly can do with 4 seconds to flank or get banelings in if you're on the point with your unit control, in that regard 8 seconds was too powerful. It also prevented the terran from microing for a long time, and I guess Blizzard knows from WoW that lengthy crowd control isn't fun.
That's why I think the change to shorter time + projectile is good, design-wise. Balance wise it might be different, but I think some people are hoping to balance zerg through the infestor, when it's really not enough of a core unit for that. It might become that if some of the changes turn out favorable, and then you can have a better idea of how to change the infestor to change zerg as a whole, but not until then.
I do hope they turn out strong: ghost vs infestor is a fun kind of mini-game; you might try to hide your infestors with burrow, but then a player could draw them out with threatening an attack. If you knew where they were, you could scan and EMP. Zerg would have to spread infestors out, yet still have detection around to protect them, and so on. It's a very tactical type of gameplay and it might turn out some players will show good handling of such things and use it to win games, where they before wouldn't have had good enough macro or so.
Last idea: if you want infestors to be able to kill medivacs with one fungal: let infested terrans slow units they shoot at. That way, if you spawn 1 infested terran right on time you might be able to kill the medivac after all.
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On March 04 2011 05:11 Grumbels wrote:
I think it's a nice change just for how it allows for future infestor changes. It always was a problematic unit, really: it shut down some types of airplay, shut down some types of drops. It could deny pushes with the lengthy snare, yet it couldn't actually since it would die too quickly. It could change the battle with neural parasites, yet could never get in range without dying, and so on. At least now it's less good in small encounters, but still somehow stronger, so it becomes a more mainstream balanceable unit. Also, you honestly can do with 4 seconds to flank or get banelings in if you're on the point with your unit control, in that regard 8 seconds was too powerful. It also prevented the terran from microing for a long time, and I guess Blizzard knows from WoW that lengthy crowd control isn't fun.
^this
I think infestors shut down air units more than blizzard intended as well as being a little problematic in that the ability was only useful for the root. The damage increase isn't all that important but it's a nicer thing than a straight up nerf.
The projectile thing isn't a huge deal. Once you get used to it, it will hardly be any different. Marines are pretty much the only things that could micro out of it, and even then you could use that to your advantage by getting a T player to use stim way too early by not engaging.
I wouldn't be surprised if the end result was a faster projectile than the PTR with a slightly longer root duration(like 5 seconds)
Overall I hope it leads to a more interesting trend in unit composition for zerg players. Currently zerg unit comps are mainly 2 or 3 units. (such as ling/bling or roach/hydra)
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On March 04 2011 03:57 Jotoco wrote:
Someone who doesn't want to commit to an attack and just wants to stall the advancement?
Like, everybody who uses infestors today?
Which is something the old infestor could never do vs. marine/tank, and this thread is comparing the two infestors. Any competent terran is going to be leapfrogging his tanks while keeping his marines right next them so you will never, ever get in fungal range without taking take fire. They only way to deal with this situation if you have already commited to infestor play is to rush in and use lings to tank while you try to fungal and baneling the marines, and/or NP the tanks. Because the new infestor does damage quicker, does more damage to the tanks, and has more health, it is much much better at this job than the old one was. I think the projectile will prove to also be helpful in both leading against marines and forcing the terran to have something else to worry about.
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On March 04 2011 05:30 kawazu wrote:
I think infestors shut down air units more than blizzard intended as well as being a little problematic in that the ability was only useful for the root.... Overall I hope it leads to a more interesting trend in unit composition for zerg players. Currently zerg unit comps are mainly 2 or 3 units. (such as ling/bling or roach/hydra)
Which is precisely the problem with the new infestor. Now that it can't handle air (or helions) as well or delay pushes as well, it's harder for infestor to be your first choice at lair tech. Forcing you into muta play. Which doesn't do much to break the muta / ling / baneling play.
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On March 04 2011 05:30 kawazu wrote:
The projectile thing isn't a huge deal. Once you get used to it, it will hardly be any different. Marines are pretty much the only things that could micro out of it
Marines are kind of a big deal also it's a lot worse against things like hellions, mutas, pheoni and dropships.
Overall I hope it leads to a more interesting trend in unit composition for zerg players. Currently zerg unit comps are mainly 2 or 3 units. (such as ling/bling or roach/hydra)
The issue is it's now much worse against things like air, drop play and harass which means I now need to always go mutalisks, this role change is actually going to narrow down the builds I can use as I only have enough gas for mutas or infestors and I need someway to hit air, stop drops and drive off harass.
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Does PDD now stop fungal since it is a projectile? I am not on PTR, does anyone know? That would make PDD retarded good.
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On March 04 2011 06:57 Gobbles wrote:
Does PDD now stop fungal since it is a projectile? I am not on PTR, does anyone know? That would make PDD retarded good.
Someone said earlier that it doesn't.
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I did not get a chance to test this in the official PTR (it's down now, I think) but I recreated a fungal growth with 2.25 damage at 0.25 period (double damage rate) in the map editor. I'm sure it has the same effect, as marines would take 36 damage over 4 seconds at double the previous rate.
(Edit: changing the wording here to be more accurate, also not slam the guy so hard.)
It's important to note that what OP says about medivac healing is EXACTLY accurate. That is, medivacs don't outheal it. It doesn't outdamage them either, though--At least for marines, SCVs and ghosts, as it slightly does for marauders, but not significantly so.
Medivacs heal at a rate of about 9-10 HP per second, while fungal deals 36 damage over 4 seconds. A medivac will still heal a marine to nearly full every tick where fungal deals damage (well, sort of; I believe medivacs get 3 ticks for 3.33 HP per second while fungal is 4 ticks for 2.25, so it goes back and forth). Even if the change is actually 4.5 damage ticks with the same period, you'd get the same net result.
So really, it still comes down to 150 energy killing one ball of marines, except the ones being healed. Except now it happens slightly faster (doesn't matter much since they can't reach you), and then there's the large nerf associated with the projectile effectively reducing the range and accuracy of the spell.
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one thing that i've been reading a lot..about damage increasing..the damage does not increase..and i think that if u want a good dps from the infestors,u kinda need to mass them..vs marines,ok,no prob,they will die with the second FG..lings again,don't know if they are able to regen 2 hp,i think it's 1 hp every 5 or 4 secs,so they will get oneshoted,If u hit them..but against a toss ball..as someone stated above,u need 5 fungals for a stalker to get killed..which is 3 infesstors at least..keeping in mind that u need to have them with full energy,since when one spawns has 75 energy(upgraded)..i can;t see how this is a buff since zerg used to be a reactonary race,where i could see a deathball of rines or toss and counter it if u have to make an infestation pit every game to have infestors 50 secs later..
now,all i have to do vs terran,get muttas for harassing,fungal rines to get good positions as tanks blah blah..against toss stop blink stalkers etc..
and one thing that's nice..in zvz it's gonna get a bit difficult to shut down mutas,since with some infestors u can kill massess of mutas..and completely change the game..
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img9.imageshack.us/i/screenshot2011030304430.jpg/)
![[image loading]](http://img508.imageshack.us/i/screenshot2011030304431.jpg/)
![[image loading]](http://img191.imageshack.us/i/screenshot2011030304431.jpg/)
