On March 03 2011 04:56 Mjolnir wrote: Now all the "buff" people will scream and say "You noob, learn to micro" or "You suck, learn to aim" except it's not about "learning" or "skill" when you're really just trying to guess at where/when the enemy is going to dodge or move to. Yes, sometimes you can force a situation where you can jam them up - but if they're worth their salt, they can avoid that (like Protoss Colossus death-balls creeping the map edges so they can block their army with FFs - people adapt to counters).
Predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop though, nearly all forms of marksmanship require this especially shooting a moving target or shooting from a moving vehicle. What is even your idea of "skill" if not this?
Great - so let's make all spells work that way, not just fungal.
In fact, we could make all splash attacks dodgeable, including siege tanks. Shouldn't I get a chance to show my skill by baiting and microing around them? Or would that perhaps completely defeat the object of a unit designed to deny ground to the enemy?
People don't seem to get that once your opponent sees where the FG is going they still have time to dodge it from 8-9 range. The chances of landing your FG is almost entirely out of your hands, you can predict where someone is going easily but he can see your prediction and react after you have already launched the FG, so against higher tier players FG is just not going to be effective at all except against a slow moving death ball ( not a siege push though as they cannot get in range before exploding to 2 tank shots ). The extra damage is great and all but making what was already a risky unit even more high risk means almost no-one will risk building it at a high level once they lose a few games to people dodging their FG shot despite having good "aim" due to the fact it can be dodged post firing, regardless of how good you are at predicting movements.
You can't see where someone fires a bullet and then dodge it either, this isn't the Matrix but if it was the Matrix I think we all know how useful bullets were there so thanks for that....
Look, if you have 1 infestor coming at you and throw a fungal at your ball of marines from range9 then sure, it's probably gonna be quite easy to dodge, but if you however have a wave of zerg units streaming in at the same time you'd be interested in moving away from them and thus you can, as zerg, predict the movement of the terran army and throw those fungals on the move to where it looks like their going, or if they stand still to just fire at your army you have targets that dont move - which are not hard to hit and will allow your army to get in a better position anyways.
You can force army movement in different ways which means you can predict movement and use PTR fungal more effectively. You can even force movement with the fungal and put your units in a more favorable position.
Btw it takes 4 sieged tankshots to kill a PTR infestor.
Why make zerg, the race which is already accepted as the hardest race to get good at, the only race with a skill-shot... Also let's make that skillshot not actually all that good compared to what the other races can do...
Realistically I can see FG being used more vs protoss balls, or vs high marauder play, but the gas cost of infestors will limit what can be combined with that kind of strat. I'm very curious to see whether the old TLO infestor+ling vs terran play can make a comeback, or possibly pure roach vs T, using FG to counter the inevitable marauder balls, and possibly throwing around some NP on tanks.
Overall I think we can't really pass judgment on it yet without further testing in high level games.
On March 03 2011 06:41 Tynan wrote:You may be able to skip banelings totally and plow all that gas into more Infestors to kill more Marines without ever getting near them.
You're already able to do that in 1.2. Except you could also defend your zerglings against helions and use the root to slow pushes long enough that you could morph banes if needed, or to give yourself more time to catch tanks on the move or marines out of position.
The only benefit to the higher DPS is to out damage medivacs. If he's got a lot of medivacs, you're going to want to spend your gas on muta's anyway to stop drops.
The +30% to armoured makes infestors more useful against Protoss. Why do we need to get any more complicated than that? Leave the 8 second root, with the lower DPS, but same damage so it's still a control spell, and take away the dumb missile that can be dodged and waste your energy.
Btw it takes 4 sieged tankshots to kill a PTR infestor.
quote from liquidpedia
The Range of the Siege Tank gets almost doubled from 7 to 13. However, it cannot shoot at anything in a 2 radius around itself. It does 35 (+15 armored) damage.
and patch notes
ZERG
Infestor - Health increased from 90 to 110.
So, the infester in PTR has 200 hp now? ( it only has 0 armor currently )
On March 03 2011 06:41 Tynan wrote: Overall I think it makes them stronger simply because of the fact that now you can completely kill Marine balls from 9 range instead of having to run up to them through massive tank and Marine fire. Potentially you could win battles without ever taking damage - an impossibility in the muta/baneling age.
How do you honestly post this? Damage done hasn't changed against marines. Infestors don't hit any harder, FG just acts more quickly. This is meaningless if you can kite the terran.
2 Fungals kill a marine. That's true before and after. Before the patch, you can't dodge a Fungal. After the patch you can.
Here's the difference. To kill a marine before the patch, you have to cast 2 FGs. To kill a marine after the patch, you have to land 2 FGs.
EDIT: it will take one more tank hit post-patch, but that brings it to 3, not 4.
Here's the difference. To kill a marine before the patch, you have to cast 2 FGs. To kill a marine after the patch, you have to land 2 FGs.
Well, one, as landing the second is just as hard in both cases after landing the first. Possibly easier on the PTR as you only need to do it two seconds later, not 4(6?).
On March 03 2011 07:41 Kyuki wrote: Look, if you have 1 infestor coming at you and throw a fungal at your ball of marines from range9 then sure, it's probably gonna be quite easy to dodge, but if you however have a wave of zerg units streaming in at the same time you'd be interested in moving away from them and thus you can, as zerg, predict the movement of the terran army and throw those fungals on the move to where it looks like their going, or if they stand still to just fire at your army you have targets that dont move - which are not hard to hit and will allow your army to get in a better position anyways.
You can force army movement in different ways which means you can predict movement and use PTR fungal more effectively. You can even force movement with the fungal and put your units in a more favorable position.
Btw it takes 4 sieged tankshots to kill a PTR infestor.
This. Basically it's "well I'm guessing he sure ain't gonna run TOWARDS my banelings to dodge the fungal"
Storm is already "dodgeable" - that makes it more interesting, not less. Especially since once fungal hits you, you're TRAPPED, I find it really interesting for it to work like this. And hey, it's doing more damage too (to things that have the necessary health)
It's not exactly a SLOW projectile, either. This isn't seeker missile (which, by the way, is still a joke imo -.-; 125 energy 6 range for a missile that can be dodged easily, or run into your own units... Stick with turrets and PDD imo...)
On March 03 2011 07:41 Kyuki wrote: Look, if you have 1 infestor coming at you and throw a fungal at your ball of marines from range9 then sure, it's probably gonna be quite easy to dodge, but if you however have a wave of zerg units streaming in at the same time you'd be interested in moving away from them and thus you can, as zerg, predict the movement of the terran army and throw those fungals on the move to where it looks like their going
No, you can't. Check the PTR videos.
Right now, an infestor outranges marines and fungal is instant, so it can fungal marines from outside their firing radius. Post-patch, the infestor has to be in range of where the fleeing marines will be when the fungal hits. Because the fungal projectile isn't much quicker than the marines can run, and the fungal's range is only four more than that of the marines, this requires the infestor to be within the marines' firing range when it shoots in order to be able to hit them when they run away. And if the zerg player guesses wrong as to whether the terran is going to run flat out or stutter-step, the infestor will miss and/or die.
This change might be acceptable if FG cost - say - half the energy to cast. Right now, as I said earlier, 150 gas for a one-shot short-range un-upgradable siege tank with a dodgeable, non-damage-stacking projectile seems a bit steep.
On March 03 2011 07:41 Kyuki wrote: Look, if you have 1 infestor coming at you and throw a fungal at your ball of marines from range9 then sure, it's probably gonna be quite easy to dodge, but if you however have a wave of zerg units streaming in at the same time you'd be interested in moving away from them and thus you can, as zerg, predict the movement of the terran army and throw those fungals on the move to where it looks like their going, or if they stand still to just fire at your army you have targets that dont move - which are not hard to hit and will allow your army to get in a better position anyways.
You can force army movement in different ways which means you can predict movement and use PTR fungal more effectively. You can even force movement with the fungal and put your units in a more favorable position.
Btw it takes 4 sieged tankshots to kill a PTR infestor.
So, for each fungal to land you have to sacrifice a wave of zerglings to tank fire?
Really, then it must be a buff, because before you only needed an infestor to FG, now you need to spend a few hundred minerals and several lings to accomplish the same thing! AND you have a not too low risk of missing! Great!
The Range of the Siege Tank gets almost doubled from 7 to 13. However, it cannot shoot at anything in a 2 radius around itself. It does 35 (+15 armored) damage.
I am really enjoying some of the Terran players in this thread complaining of the power that a T2 spellcaster unit has against their massed 50 mineral marines. Maybe this is the incentive Blizzard is giving to terran players to step out of their comfort zone and try something else and maybe be a bit more tactical, instead of a-moving marines into the zerg base. It seems fair to me.
On March 03 2011 06:41 Tynan wrote: Overall I think it makes them stronger simply because of the fact that now you can completely kill Marine balls from 9 range instead of having to run up to them through massive tank and Marine fire. Potentially you could win battles without ever taking damage - an impossibility in the muta/baneling age.
How do you honestly post this? Damage done hasn't changed against marines. Infestors don't hit any harder, FG just acts more quickly. This is meaningless if you can kite the terran.
2 Fungals kill a marine. That's true before and after. Before the patch, you can't dodge a Fungal. After the patch you can.
Here's the difference. To kill a marine before the patch, you have to cast 2 FGs. To kill a marine after the patch, you have to land 2 FGs.
EDIT: it will take one more tank hit post-patch, but that brings it to 3, not 4.
Time matters. Currently you have to fungal marines, wait a little over 4 seconds, then run in and fungal again. That's enough time for the terran to react, send infantry to attack the infestor, and so on and so forth.
Now you only have to hit im just over 2 seconds apart. That's just a few heartbeats, much harder for the terran to react meaningfully to that.
And, of course, there's the medivac healing difference.
Also, 3 fungals can now kill a tank.
btw, you'll never miss the second fungal. The targets can't move. He has to dodge the first one. If his Marines are in front instead of his tanks, it will likely hit him from outside his sight radius. So unless he is in the process of microing the target marines (possible), you'll hit them.
Anyways, all theory. Interested to see how this plays out.
On March 03 2011 09:56 Tynan wrote: Anyways, all theory. Interested to see how this plays out.
For sure.
I'm sure this conversation is mostly pointless, because with the current, under-developed status of the Infestor, it'll be awfully hard to call it a buff or nerf by the time play evolves to the point that it's understood.
I expect it will remain a gimmick unit, there are so many ways to counter it's always-limited use.
Just thought I would throw a couple things out there.
1. I usually see Terrans slowly push and Zergs have to commit with some kind of attack on the seiged Terran position to try and stop their push. This means the new added dps is super important because in a normal time when you are trying to stop a Terran rooted and seiged in a spot that is slowly advancing, you can't engage, FG, retreat, wait till it is over, and then engage again. That was a major weakness of the old FG. The current FG helps tremendously because when you decide to make the big engagement against that scary push, your FG's will actually be useful in dealing damage AND they prevent the stutter step.
2. About the dodgeableness of the missile, I will say this. You might have to use 2 FGs when you needed to use 1, because a couple or a few missiles become increasingly harder to dodge. Sure you have to be closer, but this could be a very good thing in the long run. Also, I think it will make the tension of the game much better on the commentating side (although I'm sure you guys dont c are about it). We keep talking about how we miss our reavers, and scourges, and lurkers because of their tension potential. Well, I can't wait until in the high levels I start freaking out over missiles that could miss or hit and change the whole outcome of the game.
EPT
