EPTinfestor is a buff, nice changes - Page 23
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hypnobean
89 Posts
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
On March 02 2011 22:00 Charon1979 wrote: Most often the zerg doesnt die because he did not enough dmg, but because he hadnt enough time to bring in another wave. How will a nerf to delaying the attack do anything good? The dmg buff is far to small to make a major difference here. For the argument with one unit shutting down air harass... maybe a design flaw, maybe not. Hard to judge if you consider the alternatives. Corruptor/hydra/muta. 2 of them extremely gasheavy (which probably means: no infestors) and two of them way to slow to shut down air harassment on 3 bases, even if you got far greater numbers. Well looking at how Ret got knocked out of the GSL a few days ago (  ) (specially game two) where he had a pretty big lead and could not kill off enough units when terran moved out and then had the Terran army at his doorstep this could be viewed both ways. You could argue that Ret made some mistakes during the push ofc, and I'm not saying that more DPS fungal would've made a difference but if used differently (in trying to crush the push) it might have. Once you're maxed you can't reinforce during combat anyways and need to have units die off, if your infestor for some reason are still alive after the confrontation they'll hardly delay the entire blobb of units that is coming at you if you didnt kill off enough of it. With the units spawning and dying as they spawn and the zerg army generally not beeing able to regroup it's GG. That's why banelings are used as you need to crush the push and windle down the numbers as you reproduce alot faster as zerg -> playing to the zergs strength. It's ofc nice if you're out of position when the push comes and want to delay it abit to reposition, but the PTR fungal can do that too if you absolutly have to. Not as good, but you can still do it. It's all TC so far ofc, and that goes both ways. I'd just wait and see what people can do with it, because frankly it's way to new to tell imho. | ||
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dc302
Australia576 Posts
On March 02 2011 22:00 Charon1979 wrote: ATM ist like klicking a HSM. No skill involved on the side of the caster. You just cant aim it. You can try to predict where he will possibly run, press your hotkey and pray that you guessed right. Compare it to an old arcade game like space invaders... your missile is extremly slow and you only can hit things because they come in a predictable pattern. No "random" movement involved. And even in this situation shots will be misses and its much easier to just spam the "fire" button. Skill is involved only on the dodgers side. He ist the one in charge who lets the FG hit happen or not. Likewise you cant use a "tactical" FG to try and limit the opponents movement possibilities, because unlike FF or storm, FG instantly disappears if it missed. So its no "skillshot" at all... its happy guessing where a wrong guess can kill you outright. Most often the zerg doesnt die because he did not enough dmg, but because he hadnt enough time to bring in another wave. How will a nerf to delaying the attack do anything good? The dmg buff is far to small to make a major difference here. For the argument with one unit shutting down air harass... maybe a design flaw, maybe not. Hard to judge if you consider the alternatives. Corruptor/hydra/muta. 2 of them extremely gasheavy (which probably means: no infestors) and two of them way to slow to shut down air harassment on 3 bases, even if you got far greater numbers. If you played dota you'll know that this IS indeed a skill shot and predicting 'random' movements is still skill because its not completely 'random'. Players will have logical trends in where they move their units. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
In-game videos showing its a nerf: 0 | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
I don't need or want a 150 gas short-range one-shot siege tank with a slow, dodgeable projectile. I want to punish a terran for making nothing but goddamn marines all game. Right now, all he has to do is pony up for a ghost and he's fine. Why is that too much trouble? Why is it so unreasonable for me to have one unit he can't render impotent by pressing 'T'? /rant. Video makes the DPS look fun though. I guess I'll get used to whatever. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
Personally i like the fact that Blizz is deciding to put more "skill" into the game. Making Micro the decisive power behind outcomes. How Zerg have to aim and pre-guess positions and the opponent has to dodge accordingly. Makes fo better gameplay. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
Well its true. With that change, they will have a new role. But that change of role in itself is a nerf. New infestor will be much better at dealing with big bioballs, and gateway armies. However, it will be worse at stopping drops, air harass, DTs, hellions, and so on. So yep, that makes it a change in role. The problem here, is that we already have very good ways to deal with big bioballs, and big gateway armies. These are not a problem to zerg players. And thus we dont really need infestors to deal with that. This "New role" infestors get, of dealing with gateway armies and bioballs, is something that is already covered by other units, its not something we struggle with. However, their old role, stuff like stopping ultras from getting kited, stopping broodlords from getting raped by vikings and void rays, stopping air harass, and so on, is not covered by anything else even remotely as well. Thus we will struggle more there. So yeah, its role is changing. But that in itself is a big part of the nerf. Imagine if for example marines were given slightly more life, cost a little bit of gas, got more damage against armored, less damage against non armored, and couldnt shoot up anymore. That would be a change of role, that would turn marines into marauders, they would then have the same role as marauders. That would also be a nerf. Because against everything where marauders were good, terran already has the option of making marauders, that role is already covered. But their anti air role, would no longer be covered effectively by anything else, and muta harass would completely rape all terrans. Imagine if instead, they changed fungal to still be instant cast, do half the damage it does now, and instead hold units in place for 12 seconds, and have 11 range. That would also be a change in role. But that would be a buff. Why? Because it would actually help with things that zergs now struggle with, such as delaying a toss deathball while reinforcements get built, and so on, while in other situations, we still have ways to deal with them. As a zerg, it just seems better to be able to deal with phoenixes using infestors, and be able to deal with mass marines using banelings, rather than being able to deal with mass marines with both banelings and infestors, but having 0 ways to deal with phoenix harass. Its not bad in itself that the infestor is shifting roles. Its bad however, that its shifting from a role where it was the only effective thing, to a role that is already covered by other units, and where it isnt really needed in the first place. And ofc, the fact that it can be dodged, while good for gameplay, is a nerf. | ||
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Jotoco
Brazil1342 Posts
On March 02 2011 23:45 morimacil wrote: About infestors having "a new role": Well its true. With that change, they will have a new role. But that change of role in itself is a nerf. New infestor will be much better at dealing with big bioballs, and gateway armies. However, it will be worse at stopping drops, air harass, DTs, hellions, and so on. So yep, that makes it a change in role. The problem here, is that we already have very good ways to deal with big bioballs, and big gateway armies. These are not a problem to zerg players. And thus we dont really need infestors to deal with that. This "New role" infestors get, of dealing with gateway armies and bioballs, is something that is already covered by other units, its not something we struggle with. However, their old role, stuff like stopping ultras from getting kited, stopping broodlords from getting raped by vikings and void rays, stopping air harass, and so on, is not covered by anything else even remotely as well. Thus we will struggle more there. So yeah, its role is changing. But that in itself is a big part of the nerf. Imagine if for example marines were given slightly more life, cost a little bit of gas, got more damage against armored, less damage against non armored, and couldnt shoot up anymore. That would be a change of role, that would turn marines into marauders, they would then have the same role as marauders. That would also be a nerf. Because against everything where marauders were good, terran already has the option of making marauders, that role is already covered. But their anti air role, would no longer be covered effectively by anything else, and muta harass would completely rape all terrans. Imagine if instead, they changed fungal to still be instant cast, do half the damage it does now, and instead hold units in place for 12 seconds, and have 11 range. That would also be a change in role. But that would be a buff. Why? Because it would actually help with things that zergs now struggle with, such as delaying a toss deathball while reinforcements get built, and so on, while in other situations, we still have ways to deal with them. As a zerg, it just seems better to be able to deal with phoenixes using infestors, and be able to deal with mass marines using banelings, rather than being able to deal with mass marines with both banelings and infestors, but having 0 ways to deal with phoenix harass. Its not bad in itself that the infestor is shifting roles. Its bad however, that its shifting from a role where it was the only effective thing, to a role that is already covered by other units, and where it isnt really needed in the first place. And ofc, the fact that it can be dodged, while good for gameplay, is a nerf. this is probably the best post in this thread. /thread | ||
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Gunman_csz
United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On March 02 2011 23:45 morimacil wrote: About infestors having "a new role": Well its true. With that change, they will have a new role. But that change of role in itself is a nerf. New infestor will be much better at dealing with big bioballs, and gateway armies. However, it will be worse at stopping drops, air harass, DTs, hellions, and so on. So yep, that makes it a change in role. The problem here, is that we already have very good ways to deal with big bioballs, and big gateway armies. These are not a problem to zerg players. And thus we dont really need infestors to deal with that. This "New role" infestors get, of dealing with gateway armies and bioballs, is something that is already covered by other units, its not something we struggle with. However, their old role, stuff like stopping ultras from getting kited, stopping broodlords from getting raped by vikings and void rays, stopping air harass, and so on, is not covered by anything else even remotely as well. Thus we will struggle more there. So yeah, its role is changing. But that in itself is a big part of the nerf. Imagine if for example marines were given slightly more life, cost a little bit of gas, got more damage against armored, less damage against non armored, and couldnt shoot up anymore. That would be a change of role, that would turn marines into marauders, they would then have the same role as marauders. That would also be a nerf. Because against everything where marauders were good, terran already has the option of making marauders, that role is already covered. But their anti air role, would no longer be covered effectively by anything else, and muta harass would completely rape all terrans. Imagine if instead, they changed fungal to still be instant cast, do half the damage it does now, and instead hold units in place for 12 seconds, and have 11 range. That would also be a change in role. But that would be a buff. Why? Because it would actually help with things that zergs now struggle with, such as delaying a toss deathball while reinforcements get built, and so on, while in other situations, we still have ways to deal with them. As a zerg, it just seems better to be able to deal with phoenixes using infestors, and be able to deal with mass marines using banelings, rather than being able to deal with mass marines with both banelings and infestors, but having 0 ways to deal with phoenix harass. Its not bad in itself that the infestor is shifting roles. Its bad however, that its shifting from a role where it was the only effective thing, to a role that is already covered by other units, and where it isnt really needed in the first place. And ofc, the fact that it can be dodged, while good for gameplay, is a nerf. Good post, exactly my thoughts. | ||
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kozuu
United States3 Posts
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
On March 02 2011 23:45 morimacil wrote: About infestors having "a new role": Well its true. With that change, they will have a new role. But that change of role in itself is a nerf. New infestor will be much better at dealing with big bioballs, and gateway armies. However, it will be worse at stopping drops, air harass, DTs, hellions, and so on. So yep, that makes it a change in role. The problem here, is that we already have very good ways to deal with big bioballs, and big gateway armies. These are not a problem to zerg players. And thus we dont really need infestors to deal with that. This "New role" infestors get, of dealing with gateway armies and bioballs, is something that is already covered by other units, its not something we struggle with. However, their old role, stuff like stopping ultras from getting kited, stopping broodlords from getting raped by vikings and void rays, stopping air harass, and so on, is not covered by anything else even remotely as well. Thus we will struggle more there. So yeah, its role is changing. But that in itself is a big part of the nerf. Imagine if for example marines were given slightly more life, cost a little bit of gas, got more damage against armored, less damage against non armored, and couldnt shoot up anymore. That would be a change of role, that would turn marines into marauders, they would then have the same role as marauders. That would also be a nerf. Because against everything where marauders were good, terran already has the option of making marauders, that role is already covered. But their anti air role, would no longer be covered effectively by anything else, and muta harass would completely rape all terrans. Imagine if instead, they changed fungal to still be instant cast, do half the damage it does now, and instead hold units in place for 12 seconds, and have 11 range. That would also be a change in role. But that would be a buff. Why? Because it would actually help with things that zergs now struggle with, such as delaying a toss deathball while reinforcements get built, and so on, while in other situations, we still have ways to deal with them. As a zerg, it just seems better to be able to deal with phoenixes using infestors, and be able to deal with mass marines using banelings, rather than being able to deal with mass marines with both banelings and infestors, but having 0 ways to deal with phoenix harass. Its not bad in itself that the infestor is shifting roles. Its bad however, that its shifting from a role where it was the only effective thing, to a role that is already covered by other units, and where it isnt really needed in the first place. And ofc, the fact that it can be dodged, while good for gameplay, is a nerf. I totally see what you mean and how you feel, but I disagree that the change is a nerf in itself because of the fact that the other races will also have to adapt their compositions and gameplay when infestors are out. As both toss and terran I'd be alot more afraid of infestors in the PTR state compared to the current state. Just to respond to what you're saying about Vikings and VRs and how you use Fungal today to lock those down to protect your BLs for example. You do it with Fungal only? Fungal+infested? You have no corrupter or hydras around to actually kill them? PTR fungal will just kill them faster. I can dig the ultra kite thing, but on the other hand once you're in their face units will once again just drop faster and as most of us know; when units drops your own units gets exponentially stronger - which is the reason why I think the DPS boost is so good. I've been saying that they've gotten a added role, not changed completely. Everything is not black and white. They can still do what you do today, but it's harder to do and you need to be quicker in your reactions and maybe add other units to defend things like phoenix harass etc. Like having a couple of hydras in your mineral lines or roaches instead of just pure ling vs hellions etc - yes you could view that as a nerf, but on the other hand they will bolster your own army so much more than before. What other zerg unit will help you to crush/kill/windle down a protoss ball aswell as PTR fungal? This change is not the same as having units overlap in roles, there is absolutly nothing in the zerg army that does the same thing as the Infestor. If you could use more infestor instead of tons of banes (just a touch) vs a bioball you'd have more supply and more units to to put preassure back on the Terran. Banes rock, but they do die. If you can become more cost efficient isnt that good? Again, it's TC both ways. I think it's going to be interesting to see what comes out of it though if it goes live. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
I can dig the ultra kite thing, but on the other hand once you're in their face units will once again just drop faster and as most of us know; when units drops your own units gets exponentially stronger - which is the reason why I think the DPS boost is so good. Your ultras dont get exponentially stronger when being kited more. instead of getting 36 dmg + 8 seconds of ultralisk dps, you get 36 damage, plus 4 seconds of ultralisk dps. They can still do what you do today, but it's harder to do and you need to be quicker in your reactions and maybe add other units to defend things like phoenix harass etc. Like having a couple of hydras in your mineral lines or roaches instead of just pure ling vs hellions etc - yes you could view that as a nerf, but on the other hand they will bolster your own army so much more than before. Imagine you are getting harassed by phoenixes. Currently, you could have like 10 hydras, and 2-3 infestors, and cover both your bases quite easily. If he moves in, you get 36 damage on the phoenixes, plus ~4 seconds of hydra dps, since they have to move into position. post patch, you would need at least 2 infestors per base to hold them in place long enough. Plus, phoenixes are really fast, so if your opponent is good with his micro, then you will most likely miss 1-2 fungals before you catch his phoenixes. So now you need like 3-5 infestors per base to be covered, instead of 1-2 per base currently. But infestors cost a lot of gas. So suddenly, if youre getting 3-5 infestors per base, you cant get hydras to dps. thats fine though, you can kill him just with fungals when getting that number of infestors. So after the harass, instead of having 1-2 infestors without energy, 1-2 infestors with energy, and 10 hydras, suddenly, you have 1-2 infestors with energy, 5-6 infestors without energy, and no hydras. that doesnt bolster your army, that makes it much weaker. You now cant counterattack your opponent, you now cant deal with a second wave of air harass, and you now cant deal with an incoming gateway push. And it gets worse! what if your opponent has good enough micro to split his phoenixes into 2 groups, and micro both of them? With the current infestor-hydra mix, you can split up your hydras, fungal 1 group, have half the hydras dps it, and fungal the other, and have the other half dps it. But with just infestors, you now need to use up twice the energy to kill both groups. Do you even have enough infestors for that? Doubtful. But if you do, what now? now you are left with a bunch of empty infestors. At the mercy of any push or any second wave of harass. And you cant put any pressure back on your opponent. Again, it doesnt bolster your army. Lets take your other example, against hellions. Currently, if faced with a handful of hellions, you can have 1 infestor, and a handful of lings or roaches, and be covered. But post patch, since hellions are so fast, you have a pretty high probability of missing, against an opponent with good micro. You cant just make a single infestor, and know that you can catch the hellions 100%. Thats very risky, that will result in a lot of losses where you made 1 infestor, your opponent outmicroed you, and you die. So suddenly, you need 2-3 infestors to hold it off. Thats again, a much bigger investment. Suddenly, you cant afford roaches, no gas, and your upgrades are delayed. Does it bolster your army? Well you now have 3 infestors with no energy, compared to previously 1 empty infestor, and whatever you used the rest of your gas on. So again, it doesnt really bolster your army. When you have to use more infestors to do the same thing you could do with a single infestor previously, it really doesnt bolster your army. They can still do what you do today, but it's harder to do and you need to be quicker in your reactions and maybe add other units to defend That is by definition, a nerf. And yes, I know that infestors will regen energy, so in theory, having an infestor with empty energy is better than having a dead baneling. But it takes 2 minutes and 15 seconds to get enough energy for a second fungal. Thats a looong time. | ||
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Leporello
United States2845 Posts
FG's damage-over-time might have an impact at points in the game, and I guess you could make the case that this is more helpful in those areas (although the fact that it's a dodgeable projective is just an all-around nerf). But at more pivotal points in the game, when you're trying to get as good a position as possible to hopefully punish that late-game Terran deathball, that instant and guaranteed hold-down that FG provides is what sets up the successful surround for the rest of your units. It keeps the enemy distant from your Brood Lords, lets your blings come in without being kited to death. Now Fungal Growth looks to me like a wonky way to counter tier 1 masses (provided your opponent is the a-moving type). That's just kind of the last thing Zerg really needs. | ||
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
On March 03 2011 01:40 morimacil wrote: Your ultras dont get exponentially stronger when being kited more. instead of getting 36 dmg + 8 seconds of ultralisk dps, you get 36 damage, plus 4 seconds of ultralisk dps. Imagine you are getting harassed by phoenixes. Currently, you could have like 10 hydras, and 2-3 infestors, and cover both your bases quite easily. If he moves in, you get 36 damage on the phoenixes, plus ~4 seconds of hydra dps, since they have to move into position. post patch, you would need at least 2 infestors per base to hold them in place long enough. Plus, phoenixes are really fast, so if your opponent is good with his micro, then you will most likely miss 1-2 fungals before you catch his phoenixes. So now you need like 3-5 infestors per base to be covered, instead of 1-2 per base currently. But infestors cost a lot of gas. So suddenly, if youre getting 3-5 infestors per base, you cant get hydras to dps. thats fine though, you can kill him just with fungals when getting that number of infestors. So after the harass, instead of having 1-2 infestors without energy, 1-2 infestors with energy, and 10 hydras, suddenly, you have 1-2 infestors with energy, 5-6 infestors without energy, and no hydras. that doesnt bolster your army, that makes it much weaker. You now cant counterattack your opponent, you now cant deal with a second wave of air harass, and you now cant deal with an incoming gateway push. And it gets worse! what if your opponent has good enough micro to split his phoenixes into 2 groups, and micro both of them? With the current infestor-hydra mix, you can split up your hydras, fungal 1 group, have half the hydras dps it, and fungal the other, and have the other half dps it. But with just infestors, you now need to use up twice the energy to kill both groups. Do you even have enough infestors for that? Doubtful. But if you do, what now? now you are left with a bunch of empty infestors. At the mercy of any push or any second wave of harass. And you cant put any pressure back on your opponent. Again, it doesnt bolster your army. Lets take your other example, against hellions. Currently, if faced with a handful of hellions, you can have 1 infestor, and a handful of lings or roaches, and be covered. But post patch, since hellions are so fast, you have a pretty high probability of missing, against an opponent with good micro. You cant just make a single infestor, and know that you can catch the hellions 100%. Thats very risky, that will result in a lot of losses where you made 1 infestor, your opponent outmicroed you, and you die. So suddenly, you need 2-3 infestors to hold it off. Thats again, a much bigger investment. Suddenly, you cant afford roaches, no gas, and your upgrades are delayed. Does it bolster your army? Well you now have 3 infestors with no energy, compared to previously 1 empty infestor, and whatever you used the rest of your gas on. So again, it doesnt really bolster your army. When you have to use more infestors to do the same thing you could do with a single infestor previously, it really doesnt bolster your army. That is by definition, a nerf. And yes, I know that infestors will regen energy, so in theory, having an infestor with empty energy is better than having a dead baneling. But it takes 2 minutes and 15 seconds to get enough energy for a second fungal. Thats a looong time. We obviously have two very different views on this, let's just see how it plays out. | ||
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
The OP makes a post that sounds authoritative but it is really based on personal preference and everyone is lauding it as though it provides any substantial proof of how this change really plays out. Personally, I'm going to go lean to the side that feels this is a nerf. In any close game I've played, if I have Infestors out, I need those first few Infestors to do their job or else I will lose because I just dumped a heap of resources into units that have enough energy for one spell cast at that point. People are talking in this thread like you have an army of unlimted Infestors with unlimited mana and if you miss a FG, oh well, cast another. That's not really how it works. The first few Infestors are crucial - if you miss with those, you're boned. I can, and I know others who can, bait FGs with mutas like it's a joke - and that's in their current form. I've seen people stim marines and dodge FGs in their current form. Even if they only get half of their units out, it's not a successful FG. People will just get better at dodging - that's it. Now all the "buff" people will scream and say "You noob, learn to micro" or "You suck, learn to aim" except it's not about "learning" or "skill" when you're really just trying to guess at where/when the enemy is going to dodge or move to. Yes, sometimes you can force a situation where you can jam them up - but if they're worth their salt, they can avoid that (like Protoss Colossus death-balls creeping the map edges so they can block their army with FFs - people adapt to counters). The "bonus" damage is nice in that it happens faster. I'd prefer an 8 second snare, personally; but that's just me. The casting animation, however, will make this spell a real pain in the ass to use against anyone who has spent a decent amount of time improving their micro. Terran already do this sickeningly well. | ||
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spacenegroes
United States80 Posts
On March 02 2011 23:45 morimacil wrote: About infestors having "a new role": Well its true. With that change, they will have a new role. But that change of role in itself is a nerf. New infestor will be much better at dealing with big bioballs, and gateway armies. However, it will be worse at stopping drops, air harass, DTs, hellions, and so on. So yep, that makes it a change in role. The problem here, is that we already have very good ways to deal with big bioballs, and big gateway armies. These are not a problem to zerg players. And thus we dont really need infestors to deal with that. This "New role" infestors get, of dealing with gateway armies and bioballs, is something that is already covered by other units, its not something we struggle with. However, their old role, stuff like stopping ultras from getting kited, stopping broodlords from getting raped by vikings and void rays, stopping air harass, and so on, is not covered by anything else even remotely as well. Thus we will struggle more there. So yeah, its role is changing. But that in itself is a big part of the nerf. Imagine if for example marines were given slightly more life, cost a little bit of gas, got more damage against armored, less damage against non armored, and couldnt shoot up anymore. That would be a change of role, that would turn marines into marauders, they would then have the same role as marauders. That would also be a nerf. Because against everything where marauders were good, terran already has the option of making marauders, that role is already covered. But their anti air role, would no longer be covered effectively by anything else, and muta harass would completely rape all terrans. Imagine if instead, they changed fungal to still be instant cast, do half the damage it does now, and instead hold units in place for 12 seconds, and have 11 range. That would also be a change in role. But that would be a buff. Why? Because it would actually help with things that zergs now struggle with, such as delaying a toss deathball while reinforcements get built, and so on, while in other situations, we still have ways to deal with them. As a zerg, it just seems better to be able to deal with phoenixes using infestors, and be able to deal with mass marines using banelings, rather than being able to deal with mass marines with both banelings and infestors, but having 0 ways to deal with phoenix harass. Its not bad in itself that the infestor is shifting roles. Its bad however, that its shifting from a role where it was the only effective thing, to a role that is already covered by other units, and where it isnt really needed in the first place. And ofc, the fact that it can be dodged, while good for gameplay, is a nerf. You're completely wrong. Progamer zergs have huge problems with balls of marines and the gateway colossus ball of death lategame. Phoenixes are rarely dealt with through infestors. If you watched the IEM and GSL games last couple nights, you would have seen this. Phoenixes come out way too early for infestors to be a significant deterrant; you have to have hydras and spores. On the other hand, lategame, tanks, marine, medivac has been destroying ling/baneling/muta/infestor/insert-tier3. | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
- spores/queens/corruptors will deter phoenixes. phoenix cant hit spores. herp derp. requires no micro and no gas until corruptors. heres a newflash for you guys: corruptor vs phoenix is hilarious to watch. corruptors own. - core zerg units have terrible dps. lings\roach\muta are awful. adding infestor ptr FG dps is HUGE. imagine not sitting in your base defending til t3. you can do that on the ptr. it would be OP if it wasnt a projectile, i also think the projectile micro adds more interesting gameplay to the zerg race, and allows for cool things like infestor drivebys. and remember if their army is dodging your fungal then they arent attacking, while the rest of yours is. saying this is a nerf... i dont even know what to say except that when this patch goes live you will all look like idiots. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
You're completely wrong. Progamer zergs have huge problems with balls of marines and the gateway colossus ball of death lategame. No. Progamers have problems with balls of well microed marines, supported by sige tanks, and a couple of medivacs. Not with just mass a-moved marines. And unfortunately, well microed marines staying inside siege tank lines, are already hard to fungal right now, and almost impossible to fungal post patch. And yes, the gateway colossus deathball is quite an issue. But its the colossus (and void rays) that are the real issue, not the supporting gateway army. spores/queens/corruptors will deter phoenixes. phoenix cant hit spores. herp derp. requires no micro and no gas until corruptors. Phoenix cant hit spores, true, but spores also have quite terrible damage against phoenixes. You can have 3 spores in your mineral line, and 8 phoenixes can still come in, and kill every single one of your drones, and get away without major losses. heres a newflash for you guys: corruptor vs phoenix is hilarious to watch. corruptors own. Well I agree its hilarious, but the entertaining part is watching the slow clumsy corruptors trying to catch up and get a hit on the fast agile phoenixes, and just never managing to catch up  | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On March 03 2011 04:56 Mjolnir wrote: Now all the "buff" people will scream and say "You noob, learn to micro" or "You suck, learn to aim" except it's not about "learning" or "skill" when you're really just trying to guess at where/when the enemy is going to dodge or move to. Yes, sometimes you can force a situation where you can jam them up - but if they're worth their salt, they can avoid that (like Protoss Colossus death-balls creeping the map edges so they can block their army with FFs - people adapt to counters). Predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop though, nearly all forms of marksmanship require this especially shooting a moving target or shooting from a moving vehicle. What is even your idea of "skill" if not this? | ||
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Tynan
Canada111 Posts
You don't have to FG them and then try to run your baneling ball at them (and lose anyways if there are tanks around). You may be able to skip banelings totally and plow all that gas into more Infestors to kill more Marines without ever getting near them. It's not a pure buff or a pure nerf. It's a design change. Overall I think it makes them stronger simply because of the fact that now you can completely kill Marine balls from 9 range instead of having to run up to them through massive tank and Marine fire. Potentially you could win battles without ever taking damage - an impossibility in the muta/baneling age. | ||
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