On March 03 2011 07:41 Kyuki wrote: Look, if you have 1 infestor coming at you and throw a fungal at your ball of marines from range9 then sure, it's probably gonna be quite easy to dodge, but if you however have a wave of zerg units streaming in at the same time you'd be interested in moving away from them and thus you can, as zerg, predict the movement of the terran army and throw those fungals on the move to where it looks like their going, or if they stand still to just fire at your army you have targets that dont move - which are not hard to hit and will allow your army to get in a better position anyways.
You can force army movement in different ways which means you can predict movement and use PTR fungal more effectively. You can even force movement with the fungal and put your units in a more favorable position.
Btw it takes 4 sieged tankshots to kill a PTR infestor.
So, for each fungal to land you have to sacrifice a wave of zerglings to tank fire?
Really, then it must be a buff, because before you only needed an infestor to FG, now you need to spend a few hundred minerals and several lings to accomplish the same thing! AND you have a not too low risk of missing! Great!
It's been said so many times throughout this thread it's getting kind of dull to repeat. Why would you "sacc" a bunch of lings "just to land a FG"? The point would rather be to move in (like you do with ling/bane/muta to crush a push, but with infestors/rest of your units and drop fungals on the move while you run in. You see this today aswell but to a lesser extent and in PTR form it's far more potent.
Why use the spell the same way you do today, when you're given something that would work better if you used it differently? (read the thread btw, shit is getting far to repetetive...)
On March 03 2011 04:56 Mjolnir wrote: Now all the "buff" people will scream and say "You noob, learn to micro" or "You suck, learn to aim" except it's not about "learning" or "skill" when you're really just trying to guess at where/when the enemy is going to dodge or move to. Yes, sometimes you can force a situation where you can jam them up - but if they're worth their salt, they can avoid that (like Protoss Colossus death-balls creeping the map edges so they can block their army with FFs - people adapt to counters).
Predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop though, nearly all forms of marksmanship require this especially shooting a moving target or shooting from a moving vehicle. What is even your idea of "skill" if not this?
I think what he's saying is that even though people say zergs are going to get better at using the new missile FG, the other races are also going to get better at dodging it too, so it all evens out and it's back to a guessing game for zerg (with a smaller margin of error than with the previous version of the FG) where a wrong guess might mean a waste of gas investment at best and a loss at worst.
On March 03 2011 09:21 sylverfyre wrote: Storm is already "dodgeable" - that makes it more interesting, not less. Especially since once fungal hits you, you're TRAPPED, I find it really interesting for it to work like this. And hey, it's doing more damage too (to things that have the necessary health)
It's not exactly a SLOW projectile, either. This isn't seeker missile (which, by the way, is still a joke imo -.-; 125 energy 6 range for a missile that can be dodged easily, or run into your own units... Stick with turrets and PDD imo...)
You can't compare FG to Storm because if you miss with Storm it still has the possibility to do damage since it "remains" in the area where you cast it where units can still move to and take damage. FG is an all or nothing spell which doesn't do anything if it doesn't land.
On March 03 2011 07:41 Kyuki wrote: Look, if you have 1 infestor coming at you and throw a fungal at your ball of marines from range9 then sure, it's probably gonna be quite easy to dodge, but if you however have a wave of zerg units streaming in at the same time you'd be interested in moving away from them and thus you can, as zerg, predict the movement of the terran army and throw those fungals on the move to where it looks like their going, or if they stand still to just fire at your army you have targets that dont move - which are not hard to hit and will allow your army to get in a better position anyways.
You can force army movement in different ways which means you can predict movement and use PTR fungal more effectively. You can even force movement with the fungal and put your units in a more favorable position.
Btw it takes 4 sieged tankshots to kill a PTR infestor.
So, for each fungal to land you have to sacrifice a wave of zerglings to tank fire?
Really, then it must be a buff, because before you only needed an infestor to FG, now you need to spend a few hundred minerals and several lings to accomplish the same thing! AND you have a not too low risk of missing! Great!
It's been said so many times throughout this thread it's getting kind of dull to repeat. Why would you "sacc" a bunch of lings "just to land a FG"? The point would rather be to move in (like you do with ling/bane/muta to crush a push, but with infestors/rest of your units and drop fungals on the move while you run in. You see this today aswell but to a lesser extent and in PTR form it's far more potent.
If you drop fungals on the move while you run in, you'll be dropping them on your own units. Remember: if you are chasing your opponent you have to be much, much closer than 9 range in order to be able to fire a sufficiently leading shot. It's going to be very, very hard to get that close without actually sending the infestors in first. Trying to chase down your opponent is the absolute worst way to use PTR fungal growth.
On March 03 2011 06:26 Treemonkeys wrote: Predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop though, nearly all forms of marksmanship require this especially shooting a moving target or shooting from a moving vehicle. What is even your idea of "skill" if not this?
I am interested on how the new "Fungal Growth" is going to effect ZvZ. Mutas move so quickly it will be hard at first to lead your target properly.
Other than that I feel that people say "Marines+Stim=impossible to hit." It will be like that at first but someone will master the infestor fairly quickly or you could just flank fungal the marines, maurader, tank ball and run in with your bane/ling.
On March 03 2011 06:26 Treemonkeys wrote: Predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop though, nearly all forms of marksmanship require this especially shooting a moving target or shooting from a moving vehicle. What is even your idea of "skill" if not this?
This seems accurate. Although it could be argued that "predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop," it appears that the majority of the time, your infestors will need to cross into the siege line in order to land the perfect shot. Dead infestors don't care how accurate your fungal growth aim is.
Having a projectile cast on this spell may very well nerf it into oblivion if latency allows for players to dodge the spell. I also subscribe to the Mr. Bitter school of thought that reducing the duration will likely be a nerf as well.
On March 03 2011 07:41 Kyuki wrote: Look, if you have 1 infestor coming at you and throw a fungal at your ball of marines from range9 then sure, it's probably gonna be quite easy to dodge, but if you however have a wave of zerg units streaming in at the same time you'd be interested in moving away from them and thus you can, as zerg, predict the movement of the terran army and throw those fungals on the move to where it looks like their going, or if they stand still to just fire at your army you have targets that dont move - which are not hard to hit and will allow your army to get in a better position anyways.
You can force army movement in different ways which means you can predict movement and use PTR fungal more effectively. You can even force movement with the fungal and put your units in a more favorable position.
Btw it takes 4 sieged tankshots to kill a PTR infestor.
So, for each fungal to land you have to sacrifice a wave of zerglings to tank fire?
Really, then it must be a buff, because before you only needed an infestor to FG, now you need to spend a few hundred minerals and several lings to accomplish the same thing! AND you have a not too low risk of missing! Great!
Why use the spell the same way you do today, when you're given something that would work better if you used it differently? (read the thread btw, shit is getting far to repetetive...)
Coming from a person who doesn't play zerg nor has experimented with PTR infestor, You wouldn't know if it was a nerf or a buff ! It doesn't mean much but I play at 3.4k masters on EU and have been massing games on PTR. My conclusion is this, the current state of the infestor on PTR is unusable, period. Why is it unusable? The combination of different stats that make it useless at the current state, both in direct and indirect ways. For the current costs and its current "stats" the infestor is a really inefficient + ineffective unit.
Direct: priority in battle, armor type, projectile speed, range, hp, dmg, duration of spells Indirect: build-time, gas cost, research time of spells
If blizzard wants to make the game "more skilled" aka keep the projectile while nerfing the lockdown, they have to play around with other stats (ie, build time, gas usage, armor type, range, faster projectile, bigger radius etc etc etc)
Hmm. Don't flak me bro, I discuss balance like a .. silverback.
Fungal 2.
If it really makes it so that Terran will want to get ghosts, then we are a bit closer to balance, but I think the balancing gods has once again hit us with a bat claiming shhhhh, it's for your own good.
If you've played the game then you know that the matchups are different in that two races forcing the other one to get certain tech. For instance; you can't get only zerglings and win when he has a critical mass of bio. This is what makes the game progress in tech as you both also get more income and supply.
We all know that zerg today forces no response from terran, whatever units they go for. (Just stop picketing at my exaggeration and try to understand what I'm getting at) The answer is always marines with tanks. This composition of two different units in turn forces Zerg to get at least 6 different units, that are microed differently, just to be able to survive. In certain conditions.
Even when you have this composition with all flavours of zerg, you still need to do a skillful tactical maneuver dropping, flanking, retreating, reinforcing, and remember, he still controls only two types of units. If zerg just got a way to force terran to change his composition, the game would be more like a strategy game instead of a game of catch the tornado using only your pelvis. It's just how I feel when I play them, and I know I'm always exaggerating an entire lot, it's just my way of keeping sane. (Mostly in the face of 100% invincible walls into unstoppable push from another matchup, that is currently giving me very real nightmares.)
The thing is, I think the problem might be that there's nothig to do about tanks. Which is why i'm worried that another way of slaughtering marines will not fix what's wrong. There is a counter to marines, now there's two, but why is there no zerg unit that can do well against a tank? Mutalisk comes in here, and now you have to use a harassing unit, that is expensive and has almost no combat abilities, losing head to head with any unit that can hit it back. And most importantly, this forces nothing from the Terran. He has marines. They kill mutalisk.
The metagame can't rely on the terran being sloppy and always leving his tank without marines. It just shouldn't happen. I simply propose this; when there are tanks with marine support sieged somewhere, there should be a way, a unit, an upgrade, something to break it witout throwing more money on it than them. Not an easy way, just a way at all to do it, that requires him to in turn get something else. Terran in sc2 can lose units just as Zerg in sc1, keep on living, while zerg can't lose a single important battle, both just because, in my oppinion, the tank.
The matchup isn't completely imbalanced, just dosen't incite a playful game. Just as ZvP today is without exceptions this: P gets 2 bases, then builds up his (and all the others) favourite perfect army that, even if you have 8 bases, endless income, endless larvae, endless spinecrawlers, you just can't stop. His units counter that, with their RAW DAMAGE. That is so much worse that I feel just silly talking about ZvT.
Rant over, I didn't want to offend anyone, please don't misunderstand me.
On March 03 2011 10:31 People_0f_Color wrote: Thought I'd post htis as well if it hasn't already been posted:
shows good and bad things about it. Definitely engaging balls seems better.
Not as bad as i thought. I mean the missile that is. Other than that the games were pretty biased. I know 1 thing for sure : Your bw didn't have lan latency. God how horrible it was when playing this game back in the early stages ! :p
Mutas won't do shit. I can see it on this video alone. Mutas aren't really worth it. Infestors still hard counter them.
On March 03 2011 06:26 Treemonkeys wrote: Predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop though, nearly all forms of marksmanship require this especially shooting a moving target or shooting from a moving vehicle. What is even your idea of "skill" if not this?
This seems accurate. Although it could be argued that "predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop," it appears that the majority of the time, your infestors will need to cross into the siege line in order to land the perfect shot. Dead infestors don't care how accurate your fungal growth aim is.
Having a projectile cast on this spell may very well nerf it into oblivion if latency allows for players to dodge the spell. I also subscribe to the Mr. Bitter school of thought that reducing the duration will likely be a nerf as well.
That is also true of the old infestor, it was never very good against siege tanks. There is no reason the terran will keep his marines out in front like that, if he is going against heavy infestor play he is going to keep his marines right next to his tanks and you won't be able to fungal them with the new infestor or the old one. If marines are moving to and from the siege line, then you want want to lead your shots when the marines are moving away from the siege not towards it like the worst-case pictures posted.
But yes, you try this, and he might dodge it. But pure infestor was never good against marine/tank, not on the PTR and not with the old infestor. So we really should be thinking about how the new infestor works with ling/bling/infestor, or a different combo, and not just pure infestor.
The bonus of the new fungal, is that when you are dealing with marine/tank and he is keeping his marines close to the tanks, you can now fungal everything and do more damage to the tanks at least.
I think it must be a good thing that terran can dodge it though, it gives him somthing to do, and it's something important that he really really wants to do. Only if he is dodging a fungal, he's not targeting his siege on your banelings at the same time, it gives him more he has to worry about. With the old infestor, all he has to worry about is slow pushing and abusing range by keeping his marines right next to his leapfrogging tanks, your infestors will remain completely useless. You can bumrush him with everything, using lings and blings to take damage and make fungals possible, but the fungal is only good for a delay, deals damage too slowly, and quite likely still will not hit the marines of a fast terran. He can ignore the infestors in this situation, and just focus down the lings and blings, because by the time the infestors would have been able to deal enough damage, your ling/bling is already dead, and he can now easily clean up your infestors though realistically they will run and hide back in your base while you lose precious ground between your base and the siege line.
With the new fungal, you can at least bum rush and actually deal damage with your infestors, to both the marines and the tanks, the tanks which definitely will not be dodging it, and if he is tying to focus down a baneling ball at the same time, as well as getting surrounded by lings, you will likely be fungal some marines too. The lower duration is a buff because it allows the infestor to deal significant damage in the lifespan of a ling/bling army. With the old infestor the delay was great for...delaying, but in a straight up fight by the time it deals significant damage, your supporting army is already dead.
It will be interesting to see how good people get at dodging it and abusing it, but from what I have tried so far it is just so much better at dealing with marine/tank.
On March 03 2011 19:00 osten wrote: Even when you have this composition with all flavours of zerg, you still need to do a skillful tactical maneuver dropping, flanking, retreating, reinforcing, and remember, he still controls only two types of units. If zerg just got a way to force terran to change his composition, the game would be more like a strategy game instead of a game of catch the tornado using only your pelvis. It's just how I feel when I play them, and I know I'm always exaggerating an entire lot, it's just my way of keeping sane. (Mostly in the face of 100% invincible walls into unstoppable push from another matchup, that is currently giving me very real nightmares.)
So true, and great way to put it. Zerg really needs a way to FORCE terran to tech certain ways, this makes the matchup more interesting and allows it to evolve. Right now all zerg can force terran to do is build missile turrets and a stronger wall if he goes all in, maybe some marauders with an all in roach rush. But as far as tech, terran has plenty of options. If the new infestor is good enough to force ghost, that will be a great thing for the matchup, because that is less gas that he can spend on other things as he pleases, and the matchup will evolve towards unknown areas after that point.
The matchup is very bland for zerg right now because of how terran can use mineral only marines to force blings and/or infestors and he can support the marines with almost anything else. This is because blings/infestors only barely hold off skilled marines. There is nothing zerg can do to stomp marines into the ground and say "time to build somehting else if you want to win".
On March 03 2011 06:26 Treemonkeys wrote: Predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop though, nearly all forms of marksmanship require this especially shooting a moving target or shooting from a moving vehicle. What is even your idea of "skill" if not this?
This seems accurate. Although it could be argued that "predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop," it appears that the majority of the time, your infestors will need to cross into the siege line in order to land the perfect shot. Dead infestors don't care how accurate your fungal growth aim is.
Having a projectile cast on this spell may very well nerf it into oblivion if latency allows for players to dodge the spell. I also subscribe to the Mr. Bitter school of thought that reducing the duration will likely be a nerf as well.
That is also true of the old infestor, it was never very good against siege tanks. There is no reason the terran will keep his marines out in front like that, if he is going against heavy infestor play he is going to keep his marines right next to his tanks and you won't be able to fungal them with the new infestor or the old one. If marines are moving to and from the siege line, then you want want to lead your shots when the marines are moving away from the siege not towards it like the worst-case pictures posted.
Who would send infestors in first to take the tank shots?
On March 03 2011 06:26 Treemonkeys wrote: Predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop though, nearly all forms of marksmanship require this especially shooting a moving target or shooting from a moving vehicle. What is even your idea of "skill" if not this?
This seems accurate. Although it could be argued that "predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop," it appears that the majority of the time, your infestors will need to cross into the siege line in order to land the perfect shot. Dead infestors don't care how accurate your fungal growth aim is.
Having a projectile cast on this spell may very well nerf it into oblivion if latency allows for players to dodge the spell. I also subscribe to the Mr. Bitter school of thought that reducing the duration will likely be a nerf as well.
That is also true of the old infestor, it was never very good against siege tanks. There is no reason the terran will keep his marines out in front like that, if he is going against heavy infestor play he is going to keep his marines right next to his tanks and you won't be able to fungal them with the new infestor or the old one. If marines are moving to and from the siege line, then you want want to lead your shots when the marines are moving away from the siege not towards it like the worst-case pictures posted.
Who would send infestors in first to take the tank shots?
On February 26 2011 12:21 shaby23 wrote: Does that means that Vs Terran infestor will be a must???
It will probably be a must for all match-ups now. Be prepared to go toe to toe with ghosts trying to EMP your Infestors.
I've been waiting for this for a long, long time. Paired with the change to Khaydarin Amulet, this will prompt more Terrans to start using Ghosts. Hopefully.
I've also wanted the Infestor to be a little more useful against Protoss. I guess I got my wish.
On March 03 2011 06:26 Treemonkeys wrote: Predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop though, nearly all forms of marksmanship require this especially shooting a moving target or shooting from a moving vehicle. What is even your idea of "skill" if not this?
This seems accurate. Although it could be argued that "predictive aiming is in fact a skill you can develop," it appears that the majority of the time, your infestors will need to cross into the siege line in order to land the perfect shot. Dead infestors don't care how accurate your fungal growth aim is.
Having a projectile cast on this spell may very well nerf it into oblivion if latency allows for players to dodge the spell. I also subscribe to the Mr. Bitter school of thought that reducing the duration will likely be a nerf as well.
That is also true of the old infestor, it was never very good against siege tanks. There is no reason the terran will keep his marines out in front like that, if he is going against heavy infestor play he is going to keep his marines right next to his tanks and you won't be able to fungal them with the new infestor or the old one. If marines are moving to and from the siege line, then you want want to lead your shots when the marines are moving away from the siege not towards it like the worst-case pictures posted.
Who would send infestors in first to take the tank shots?
I dunno, the guy who made those screen shots?
Someone who doesn't want to commit to an attack and just wants to stall the advancement?
On March 03 2011 07:41 Kyuki wrote: Look, if you have 1 infestor coming at you and throw a fungal at your ball of marines from range9 then sure, it's probably gonna be quite easy to dodge, but if you however have a wave of zerg units streaming in at the same time you'd be interested in moving away from them and thus you can, as zerg, predict the movement of the terran army and throw those fungals on the move to where it looks like their going, or if they stand still to just fire at your army you have targets that dont move - which are not hard to hit and will allow your army to get in a better position anyways.
You can force army movement in different ways which means you can predict movement and use PTR fungal more effectively. You can even force movement with the fungal and put your units in a more favorable position.
Btw it takes 4 sieged tankshots to kill a PTR infestor.
So, for each fungal to land you have to sacrifice a wave of zerglings to tank fire?
Really, then it must be a buff, because before you only needed an infestor to FG, now you need to spend a few hundred minerals and several lings to accomplish the same thing! AND you have a not too low risk of missing! Great!
It's been said so many times throughout this thread it's getting kind of dull to repeat. Why would you "sacc" a bunch of lings "just to land a FG"? The point would rather be to move in (like you do with ling/bane/muta to crush a push, but with infestors/rest of your units and drop fungals on the move while you run in. You see this today aswell but to a lesser extent and in PTR form it's far more potent.
Why use the spell the same way you do today, when you're given something that would work better if you used it differently? (read the thread btw, shit is getting far to repetetive...)
Because then I can use my gas on anything else? If I want to do DPS I will spend my gas on other units, not the infestor. If I have a CHANCE of hitting some units to do a certain DPS and then the unit is useless for 2 minutes, or a chance to do some DPS with, like, 6 roaches or 3 Hydras or something, and actually have the unit be useful for more than 4 seconds?
On February 26 2011 12:21 shaby23 wrote: Does that means that Vs Terran infestor will be a must???
It will probably be a must for all match-ups now. Be prepared to go toe to toe with ghosts trying to EMP your Infestors.
I've been waiting for this for a long, long time. Paired with the change to Khaydarin Amulet, this will prompt more Terrans to start using Ghosts. Hopefully.
I've also wanted the Infestor to be a little more useful against Protoss. I guess I got my wish.
That I can agree with, but even then, WHY the infestor? Why not any other unit? Why sacrifice this unit utility in everything else so it can better deal with Colossus balls?
I can't understand Blizzard. They won't add the Lurker back because it does "the same job as the baneling" and then they change the ONE unit who has a pretty distinct and unique job to do more of the same that everyone else does. Even DRONES do DPS, but I don't know any other unit that can stall a push like the infestor does today.
I wonder if there is a Muta synergy we are overlooking here.
The Terran wants to keep his tanks in front because then they can hit the Infestors before the Infestors can FG the Marines behind.
Then you send in the Mutas at the front. Start picking at the tanks.
Terran stims his Marines forward. As they chase the Mutas forward, you toss a Fungal from just outside of siege range.
So Terran basically has to decide between leaving his Marines in front and letting FG rape them, or leaving his Tanks in front and letting Mutas rape them.
EPT![[image loading]](http://img9.imageshack.us/i/screenshot2011030304430.jpg/)
![[image loading]](http://img508.imageshack.us/i/screenshot2011030304431.jpg/)
![[image loading]](http://img191.imageshack.us/i/screenshot2011030304431.jpg/)
