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On March 01 2011 23:50 RoKetha wrote:
I don't understand how people could possibly argue that this is a buff in any way except maybe against slow armored units.
Fungal used to be a guaranteed 36 damage, now it is 36 damage that can miss.
This. Not sure if someone already posted this (don't have time to review all 18 pages in this thread) but I thought the new missile mechanic for the fungal was a bad idea, seeing this video made me feel worse about the infestor. Haven't personally tried this yet though, so I haven't confirmed if this is really as bad as it looks.
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On March 01 2011 23:54 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 23:50 RoKetha wrote:
I don't understand how people could possibly argue that this is a buff in any way except maybe against slow armored units.
Fungal used to be a guaranteed 36 damage, now it is 36 damage that can miss. You had no reason to engage while that damage was being dealt if you were using it for the purpose of softening the army before, so the rate at which the damage is dealt is completely irrelevant against everything except zerglings and units being healed by medivacs. If you were using it to have an advantageous engagement it is now worse in every possible way. I honestly can't believe that there are pages and pages of people who are ecstatic about how fungaling things to kill them is suddenly viable now that it does the same damage as before except against armored (where it still takes 5-6 fungals to kill anything at all), but is harder to chain. If you observe every post saying it is a buff has a little SCV to the left of the name...
Maybe you should look at your own observation skills.
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On March 01 2011 23:57 jackdaleaper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 23:50 RoKetha wrote:
I don't understand how people could possibly argue that this is a buff in any way except maybe against slow armored units.
Fungal used to be a guaranteed 36 damage, now it is 36 damage that can miss. This. Not sure if someone already posted this (don't have time to review all 18 pages in this thread) but I thought the new missile mechanic for the fungal was a bad idea, seeing this video made me feel worse about the infestor. Haven't personally tried this yet though, so I haven't confirmed if this is really as bad as it looks.
But that's the worst type of example you can possibly find. It's almost like putting one colossi in the open and have it getting destroyed by 4 roaches and say it's a useless unit.
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On March 01 2011 22:21 Kyuki wrote:
People dont understand that it's half a storm (+ - depending on light/armored), that has larger radius (same cast range) and immobilize... When you hit it's guaranteed damage. So yeah, how can it be bad?
I think it's a huge buff and is a needed component for zerg mid/lategame.
Its already a half storm with a slightly larger radius and an immobilize, that does guaranteed damage when you hit.
The difference is, after the patch, it will still be a half storm, but with a shorter immobilize, and instead of being 100% guaranteed to do 36 damage, it will have something like 50-100% chance to do damage, depending on how good your opponent is, and the speed of the units you are trying to hit.
postpatch, it wont be bad. It will just be worse than now.
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On March 02 2011 00:43 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 22:21 Kyuki wrote:
People dont understand that it's half a storm (+ - depending on light/armored), that has larger radius (same cast range) and immobilize... When you hit it's guaranteed damage. So yeah, how can it be bad?
I think it's a huge buff and is a needed component for zerg mid/lategame. Its already a half storm with a slightly larger radius and an immobilize, that does guaranteed damage when you hit. The difference is, after the patch, it will still be a half storm, but with a shorter immobilize, and instead of being 100% guaranteed to do 36 damage, it will have something like 50-100% chance to do damage, depending on how good your opponent is, and the speed of the units you are trying to hit. postpatch, it wont be bad. It will just be worse than now.
How can you neglect the fact that the DPS was uped by 100%? Having a guaranteed 36dmg over 8 seconds is just the lockdown that is worth anything. Terran heals through it with medivacs and it deals way too little dmg over time vs toss.
With a 4 second duration you can bring down forces alot quicker and use the infestor more as a damagedealer than how it is used today.
As I said before, people look at its role today and can't see its uses in a different role.
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On March 02 2011 01:10 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 00:43 morimacil wrote:On March 01 2011 22:21 Kyuki wrote:
People dont understand that it's half a storm (+ - depending on light/armored), that has larger radius (same cast range) and immobilize... When you hit it's guaranteed damage. So yeah, how can it be bad?
I think it's a huge buff and is a needed component for zerg mid/lategame. Its already a half storm with a slightly larger radius and an immobilize, that does guaranteed damage when you hit. The difference is, after the patch, it will still be a half storm, but with a shorter immobilize, and instead of being 100% guaranteed to do 36 damage, it will have something like 50-100% chance to do damage, depending on how good your opponent is, and the speed of the units you are trying to hit. postpatch, it wont be bad. It will just be worse than now. How can you neglect the fact that the DPS was uped by 100%? Having a guaranteed 36dmg over 8 seconds is just the lockdown that is worth anything. Terran heals through it with medivacs and it deals way too little dmg over time vs toss. With a 4 second duration you can bring down forces alot quicker and use the infestor more as a damagedealer than how it is used today. As I said before, people look at its role today and can't see its uses in a different role.
I will give you an ability that does 10 damage in HALF A SECOND (but still costs 75 energy). OMG THE DPS IS INSANE!!!ONE11!!
Useless nonetheless...
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On March 02 2011 01:28 Jotoco wrote:
I will give you an ability that does 10 damage in HALF A SECOND (but still costs 75 energy). OMG THE DPS IS INSANE!!!ONE11!!
Useless nonetheless...
Heh, psystorm's so sweet.
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The infester fungal missile is a nerf/buff depending on how you use your infester. Some are going to love it and others are going to hate it. For me it is going to be a MASSIVE buff. I'm okay with my creep spreed and pretty good with my overlord scouting. The biggest issue I always had with fungal growth is that I could see the enemy advancing and I had to advance my infester toward their army to try and instant cast fungal. I always wanted a missile attack, because I can time the missile to shoot and retreat the infester safety well using my creep to spot.
To me it seems you would only miss with the infester under two circumstance. 1) You just plan old miss (practice makes perfect). 2) The enemy knows where your infester are standing and uses either blink or spread to negate the missile. Never an issue for me since my infesters are always either burrowed or behind my army.
Besides do you ever see stalkers blink dodge emp? You can see the missile coming, but not where it is going to land. . .that alone makes it pretty hard to dodge.
I think zerg are just going to need to be more stealthy with infesters so that the enemy sees the infester at the last second and is unable to blink/dodge/split in time.
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Great, another spell that gets worse as the opposition gets better. Just what we needed.
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On March 02 2011 01:10 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 00:43 morimacil wrote:On March 01 2011 22:21 Kyuki wrote:
People dont understand that it's half a storm (+ - depending on light/armored), that has larger radius (same cast range) and immobilize... When you hit it's guaranteed damage. So yeah, how can it be bad?
I think it's a huge buff and is a needed component for zerg mid/lategame. Its already a half storm with a slightly larger radius and an immobilize, that does guaranteed damage when you hit. The difference is, after the patch, it will still be a half storm, but with a shorter immobilize, and instead of being 100% guaranteed to do 36 damage, it will have something like 50-100% chance to do damage, depending on how good your opponent is, and the speed of the units you are trying to hit. postpatch, it wont be bad. It will just be worse than now. How can you neglect the fact that the DPS was uped by 100%? Having a guaranteed 36dmg over 8 seconds is just the lockdown that is worth anything. Terran heals through it with medivacs and it deals way too little dmg over time vs toss. With a 4 second duration you can bring down forces alot quicker and use the infestor more as a damagedealer than how it is used today. As I said before, people look at its role today and can't see its uses in a different role.
Well its based really on how it works together with your army, and your opponent's army.
Having a guaranteed 36 damage over 8 seconds is awesome. If there are no medivacs, you can kill just with the fungal anyway.
And if the terran is investing heavily in medivacs, he has less tanks. Meanwhile, you can still clean up with banelings easily during the 8 second lockdown.
with a 4 second duration, but not actually guaranteed to hit, well I guess its nice if your opponent overinvested in medivacs, and you dont have banelings, and you also have a lot of infestors, and the fungals actually land, yes. But thats a lot of maybe. With the guaranteed 8 second lockdown, if you have the banelings, and the 1 infestor, thats it, you know for sure you can kill off the marines, instead of hoping you can.
The role of damage dealer for the infestor, while it in theory sounds nice, hasnt really been buffed all that much.
You want to use 6 infestors to lock down a toss deathball, and kill it? You can already do that now. being able to do it faster is nice, but not gamebreaking.
On the other hand, not being able to stop drops, air harass, keep vikings away from your broodlords, keep infantry in range of ultras and banelings, keep stalkers from blinking for 8 seconds, and so on, that can all be gamebreaking. and thats all gone.
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To me it seems you would only miss with the infester under two circumstance. 1) You just plan old miss (practice makes perfect). 2) The enemy knows where your infester are standing and uses either blink or spread to negate the missile. Never an issue for me since my infesters are always either burrowed or behind my army.
3) The enemy doesnt see your infestors until they come in range or unburrow, but sees the missile, and blinks/stims/just moves away
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On March 01 2011 10:56 Farkinator wrote:
It's not a nerf to the spell itself; it's a nerf to the playstyle that is inherent to getting infestors in the first place. Blizzard is literally trying to take away the very synergy that made infestors a viable option in ZvT.
Infestors are used as a strategy with great creep spread in order to stall pushes and such. This allows you to slam out an appropriate amount of units to deal with scary pushes because you've been droning instead of producing units. Secondly, the longer duration on Fungal Growth was your way of dealing with delayed mutalisks. You needed to be able to kill off dropships by fungaling and infested terraning dropships. With the duration halved, there's literally no way to deal with drops if you go Infestor, making Mutalisk a necessity. Remember the change to fungal not hitting air? People on the PTR could basically blindly counter Mutalisk without ever having to know anything else was coming because anyone with decent multitask could punish anyone who dared not get mutalisks.
This shouldn't go through; the duration on the snare is what the spell was intended for. IT WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO DO DAMAGE. It was supposed to keep blink stalkers, stim marines etc. still so you could attempt to get a surround on the units that can actually manage to outrun speed Zerglings and stall pushes, not to be some retarded gimped version of Psi Storm.
Can people who don't actually know how to play infestor zerg stop posting about how this is actually a buff to the play style?
Wow, so we can't cast another fungal after the first one wears off now?
Please use some common sense.
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Simply having twice the amount of infestors to do the same thing that was done by a single one previously isnt always an option.
Please use some common sense.
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On February 26 2011 12:26 Mattsville wrote:All I can say is: HOLY COW! Nice man, just awesome. I've recently been using Infestors again after trying out Mr. Bitters vs Terran build and I'd forgotten how awesome they could be. If these changes make it through PTR that's awesome. Only pity is the decrease from 8 seconds to 4 seconds for the stun. Was nice to be able to hold off a much larger army for 30 seconds until you could morph more units in... But still, I'm a big fan of the changes. EDIT: Link to PTR notes available here if anyone is interested in checking the proposed changes out http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/2356436#blog
now you won't have to hold them off until you get a bigger army, now you can weaken them down to your army strength in just 4 seconds.
that's a buff in my words.
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On March 01 2011 23:57 jackdaleaper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 23:50 RoKetha wrote:
I don't understand how people could possibly argue that this is a buff in any way except maybe against slow armored units.
Fungal used to be a guaranteed 36 damage, now it is 36 damage that can miss. This. Not sure if someone already posted this (don't have time to review all 18 pages in this thread) but I thought the new missile mechanic for the fungal was a bad idea, seeing this video made me feel worse about the infestor. Haven't personally tried this yet though, so I haven't confirmed if this is really as bad as it looks.
This fungal growth is going to screw with the way that I play zerg v zerg. First problem is that mutas will be able to dodge the fungal growth more so then stalkers, and second is, since the stun time is way less, it means that my hydras probably won't be able to get to the mutas in time. I predict zerg v zerg will be more about getting to mutas in the mid game than about getting to hydras.
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On March 02 2011 01:44 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 01:10 Kyuki wrote:On March 02 2011 00:43 morimacil wrote:On March 01 2011 22:21 Kyuki wrote:
People dont understand that it's half a storm (+ - depending on light/armored), that has larger radius (same cast range) and immobilize... When you hit it's guaranteed damage. So yeah, how can it be bad?
I think it's a huge buff and is a needed component for zerg mid/lategame. Its already a half storm with a slightly larger radius and an immobilize, that does guaranteed damage when you hit. The difference is, after the patch, it will still be a half storm, but with a shorter immobilize, and instead of being 100% guaranteed to do 36 damage, it will have something like 50-100% chance to do damage, depending on how good your opponent is, and the speed of the units you are trying to hit. postpatch, it wont be bad. It will just be worse than now. How can you neglect the fact that the DPS was uped by 100%? Having a guaranteed 36dmg over 8 seconds is just the lockdown that is worth anything. Terran heals through it with medivacs and it deals way too little dmg over time vs toss. With a 4 second duration you can bring down forces alot quicker and use the infestor more as a damagedealer than how it is used today. As I said before, people look at its role today and can't see its uses in a different role. Well its based really on how it works together with your army, and your opponent's army. Having a guaranteed 36 damage over 8 seconds is awesome. If there are no medivacs, you can kill just with the fungal anyway. And if the terran is investing heavily in medivacs, he has less tanks. Meanwhile, you can still clean up with banelings easily during the 8 second lockdown. with a 4 second duration, but not actually guaranteed to hit, well I guess its nice if your opponent overinvested in medivacs, and you dont have banelings, and you also have a lot of infestors, and the fungals actually land, yes. But thats a lot of maybe. With the guaranteed 8 second lockdown, if you have the banelings, and the 1 infestor, thats it, you know for sure you can kill off the marines, instead of hoping you can. The role of damage dealer for the infestor, while it in theory sounds nice, hasnt really been buffed all that much. You want to use 6 infestors to lock down a toss deathball, and kill it? You can already do that now. being able to do it faster is nice, but not gamebreaking. On the other hand, not being able to stop drops, air harass, keep vikings away from your broodlords, keep infantry in range of ultras and banelings, keep stalkers from blinking for 8 seconds, and so on, that can all be gamebreaking. and thats all gone.
Your first sentence is the only thing that is actually worth noting and is the sole reason why I'm saying that you cannot look at it as a nerf unless you picture the infestor doing what yo do with it currently.
If you use it as a damage dealer you'd most likely use something else for what you used the infestor previously, and if it was to delay pushes you can now instead just use them to crush pushes. I seriously think that infestor ling will be devastating to marine/tank style mixes after the patch, and you wont really need the banelings that much, but instead corporate them into earlygame defense and other latergame tactics instead of solely rely on them to hold pushes.
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As some poster above me said, it's going to be viewed as a buff or a nerf depending on how you want to use the infestor, and I think waay to many put on their designer hats and think that the unit is meant to do X, and suddenly when it does X abit worse but Y much better it's plain bad. That's only true if you use it to do X still. Why not doing more of Y when it was buffed in that direction?
Whatever, it's always going to be crying. Let's just wait and see.
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On March 01 2011 10:46 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 10:38 Zyban wrote:
I concur with most that this is a buff in all matchups (in ZvZ the most IMO vs roachs). I find it funny you guys would take ensare over fungal... how the fuck you gonna deal with a muta/roach/marine/anything ball with ensnares?
Banelings.
Banelings only kill one of those (Marines) wheras fungal owns all three.
In my opinion, this was an epic buff to the infestor in general. Any nay sayers are just angry at the aspect that you cant fungal+ogogogo with ling baneling vs terran anymore. But the thing is that now you can just fungal+fungal DEAD marines.
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To those who think its a buff, could you maybe try to come up with a situation where its better than before?
People say it will be great for killing marines outright, for example, but I beg to differ.
In a situation with no medivacs, and where you catch the terran unsieged, with marines unstimmed, its the same as now, just takes a little longer to kill everything, but still everything dies.
In a situation with sieged tanks, and microed stimmed marines running around, they can dodge it, so its worse. If you do catch them, again, its the same as now, they just take a little less time to die, but still die in 2 fungals.
In a situation where he does have medivacs, and you invested in a lot of infestors, then, yes, if you catch the marines with a fungal, the higher dps is going to allow you to kill them. But if instead you invested in infestors and baneling, instead of infestor and more infestors, youd still be able to kill them.
However, if he does have medivacs for his marines, he can start dropping all over the place, and it becomes really hard to deal with, since you need 2 infestors per drop, instead of a single one.
So it seems like the current version is still better there.
In situatons where you are being harassed by cloaked banshees, current version is better than the new.
Hellions? current version better than the new.
Even in a situation like a roach battle, it doesnt seem that great. Roaches are not fast enough to actually dodge it in most situations, true, but having 8 seconds to set up a better concave was the main strength there, now you will have less time to do that.
And if you try to invest all of your gas in infestors to kill roaches that way, you will be low on roaches of your own, and certainly wont be able to afford any hydras or mutas.
So chances are, you fungal one part of his army 5 times in a row, maybe it dies, maybe he just burrows and shrugs it off, and the rest of his bigger army still kills you anyway.
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On March 02 2011 02:06 morimacil wrote:
Simply having twice the amount of infestors to do the same thing that was done by a single one previously isnt always an option.
Please use some common sense.
You're not doing the same amount, you're doing twice as much damage, +30% more to armored.
We can do this all day, my point stands.
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EPT
