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On March 01 2011 06:05 MrPrezbo wrote:
I don't really see what the problem is.
Use mindgames against your opponent, rush your infestors up to make it look like you're going to fungal, etc. If you're good, you will still land it.
The skill ceiling for this spell has been raised significantly. Pushes will be less delayed, but with more damage dealt. Perhaps I can forego banelings completely in the midgame? In favor of mass fungal deathballs? I'm looking forward to seeing how this works.
And please, PLEASE mass muta against me post-patch. I'll enjoy decimating your mutas in half the time it took before... Don't think I can land it? Watch me. muahahahahaha.
How is it everyone says it deals more damage?
Against Armored? Sure, but 12 damage against a armored unit is mostly irrelevant.
"But you can fungal twice in the same time!!!1ONE!!"
No shit, sherlock. And you need 2 infestors for it too. And since even if you do fungal him twice, his push is still coming 8 seconds earlier than before! You can almost burrow a spine crawler or hatch lings in this time. The difference is HUGE.
Give me 8s NO DAMAGE fungals any day over 4s damaging fungals. Except MAYBE against Colossus/Void Ray. MAYBE.
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If it's gonna be a projectile, and a slow one, it should at least target a unit, rather than an area. Require a little bit of skill from the other player (split, rather than simply run away).
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The whole point of infestors is so that you can lock their army down so that your army can reach it without being kited not to deal AoE damage, sacrificing your army to drive them into fungals doesn't help as you won't have the units to mop up.
See, you're wrong about that though. Why can't you guys understand that the infestor still does the same amount of damage, except it deals it FASTER? Fungal was totally insignificant before damage-wise. And with the old fungal, if I am already engaged with an army, I don't really need to fungal it, do I? But now, that's when they extra DPS will come to bear.
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On March 01 2011 06:15 MrPrezbo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 06:10 TheButtonmen wrote:On March 01 2011 06:05 MrPrezbo wrote:
I don't really see what the problem is.
Use mindgames against your opponent, rush your infestors up to make it look like you're going to fungal, etc. If you're good, you will still land it. You could do this pre-patch except it wasn't a matter of are they paying attention to dodge it. The skill ceiling for this spell has been raised significantly. Pushes will be less delayed, but with more damage dealt. The exact same damage is dealt, it's just dealt quicker. And please, PLEASE mass muta against me post-patch. I'll enjoy decimating your mutas in half the time it took before... Don't think I can land it? Watch me. muahahahahaha. It's worse agianst mutas now as it holds them for your hydras to hit for half the time, so unless you countered mutas with only fungal growth this won't half the time it takes to kill the mutas it will just cost double the energy to hold them there. you're semi-right about the damage being the same, except it does now deal more damage to armored. Even the 30% increase is significant. I may need to build an extra infestor or 2 vs mutas, but since I actually deal damage faster with fungal, the mutas will die faster. If you're good, you will need about 8 seconds for reinforcements to arrive (queens, hydras) to take down the mutas. And although I will have spent 2 fungals instead of one, I will have done 72 damage in 8 seconds to those oh-so-fragile mutalisks. Then mine ears shall revel in that squish-popping sound of dying mutalisks--like a symphony....
Guess what, it doesn't really matter that it took 8s or 1min to damage 36 damage for fungal. BECAUSE THEY CAN'T FUCKING AVOID IT.
And most air units that matter in harassment are light anyway (except Medvacs). So no change in damage, too. And it will take 4 fungals to kill a medvac, that is 300 Energy. Whereas BEFORE, it took 1 fungal + 3 IT's, so 150 energy total.
And that is something I don't think anyone discussed here, really. This change to fungal is a HUGE NERF to Infested Terrans. When fungaling + IT's, they had 3s of damage. And they have over 9DPS, so each one did 27 damage, more damage per energy than the fungal itself.
Now your It's will hatch 1s too late. Unless you invest double the resources on double the infestors.
And Terran bitch about the Raven's Turrets. They are 2x2, allowing for blocking paths. Are instant. Last for 6 times more. Have better range, armor... And don't tell me Infested Terrans can move, because they barely leave their places in the 30s lifespan they have.
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On March 01 2011 06:17 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 06:05 MrPrezbo wrote:
I don't really see what the problem is.
Use mindgames against your opponent, rush your infestors up to make it look like you're going to fungal, etc. If you're good, you will still land it.
The skill ceiling for this spell has been raised significantly. Pushes will be less delayed, but with more damage dealt. Perhaps I can forego banelings completely in the midgame? In favor of mass fungal deathballs? I'm looking forward to seeing how this works.
And please, PLEASE mass muta against me post-patch. I'll enjoy decimating your mutas in half the time it took before... Don't think I can land it? Watch me. muahahahahaha. How is it everyone says it deals more damage? Against Armored? Sure, but 12 damage against a armored unit is mostly irrelevant. "But you can fungal twice in the same time!!!1ONE!!" No shit, sherlock. And you need 2 infestors for it too. And since even if you do fungal him twice, his push is still coming 8 seconds earlier than before! You can almost burrow a spine crawler or hatch lings in this time. The difference is HUGE. Give me 8s NO DAMAGE fungals any day over 4s damaging fungals. Except MAYBE against Colossus/Void Ray. MAYBE.
It's DPS we are talking about, plain and simple.
let's stretch our minds for a moment here, given x of time, and given infinite infestors, these new infestors deal twice the amount of damage the old ones did. Seconds matter in this game, as your lament over the root-time attests, but in my opinion, the faster DPS more than balances that out.
It was pretty frustrating when medivacs out-dps'ed the current incarnation of fungal growth, wasn't it? Do you really need EIGHT seconds for speedlings to come and hit some fungaled marines?
Well, maybe if you're across the map.
The bottom line is that infestors will be more feared now. You can delay that push for 24 seconds (with the current fungal version) having done a total net of 0 damage due to medivacs. Or, you could be a bit more prepared, and smash the shit of an entire army faster than you ever thought possible. I personally see more value in the latter.
And, did you ever consider (lets use a terran army for example) that when you chain the new fungal to delay a push, the new fungal may delay it just as much or MORE, as the terran would likely elect to hold back on his own attack to heal up/repair his units?
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This is how it works now:
If you want fungal do delay his army as long as possible then infestors were better before the patch.
If you want fungal to deal damage, then it's better after the aptch, because its dps is greater now and you will be dealing more damage over the time.
If you want to fungal his units for a certain timespan, then it depends on the amout of infestors you got which one is better (pre or post patch).
If you think the main purpose of fungal growth is to delay his army to get an army yourself, then yes, it has been nerfed. If you think its main purpse is softening up his army and stunning them is just a nice bonus, then it has been buffed.
Buffs that dont need to be argued about are the bonus damage to armor, which is actually insane. FG used to deal 36 damage to armored units prepatch, postpatch it will deal 48 damge to armored units in half the time. And of course the infestor got a health buff which makes it survive 3 tank blasts.
An obvious nerf is that its no longer an autocast spell, unfortunately the projectile is travelling way too slowly. A huge nerf in my opinion which should be removed.
If they didn't remove the autocast function then there would be no sense about arguing whether it's a buff or not, but they did. I don't think it's a buff, nor it's a nerf. It's just different right now, but the old infestor fit into the zerg army better. Sure, the new dps allows the infestor to out-dps the healing-rate of medivacs, but that's not worth not hitting anything.
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On March 01 2011 06:28 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 06:15 MrPrezbo wrote:On March 01 2011 06:10 TheButtonmen wrote:On March 01 2011 06:05 MrPrezbo wrote:
I don't really see what the problem is.
Use mindgames against your opponent, rush your infestors up to make it look like you're going to fungal, etc. If you're good, you will still land it. You could do this pre-patch except it wasn't a matter of are they paying attention to dodge it. The skill ceiling for this spell has been raised significantly. Pushes will be less delayed, but with more damage dealt. The exact same damage is dealt, it's just dealt quicker. And please, PLEASE mass muta against me post-patch. I'll enjoy decimating your mutas in half the time it took before... Don't think I can land it? Watch me. muahahahahaha. It's worse agianst mutas now as it holds them for your hydras to hit for half the time, so unless you countered mutas with only fungal growth this won't half the time it takes to kill the mutas it will just cost double the energy to hold them there. you're semi-right about the damage being the same, except it does now deal more damage to armored. Even the 30% increase is significant. I may need to build an extra infestor or 2 vs mutas, but since I actually deal damage faster with fungal, the mutas will die faster. If you're good, you will need about 8 seconds for reinforcements to arrive (queens, hydras) to take down the mutas. And although I will have spent 2 fungals instead of one, I will have done 72 damage in 8 seconds to those oh-so-fragile mutalisks. Then mine ears shall revel in that squish-popping sound of dying mutalisks--like a symphony.... Guess what, it doesn't really matter that it took 8s or 1min to damage 36 damage for fungal. BECAUSE THEY CAN'T FUCKING AVOID IT. And most air units that matter in harassment are light anyway (except Medvacs). So no change in damage, too. And it will take 4 fungals to kill a medvac, that is 300 Energy. Whereas BEFORE, it took 1 fungal + 3 IT's, so 150 energy total. And that is something I don't think anyone discussed here, really. This change to fungal is a HUGE NERF to Infested Terrans. When fungaling + IT's, they had 3s of damage. And they have over 9DPS, so each one did 27 damage, more damage per energy than the fungal itself. Now your It's will hatch 1s too late. Unless you invest double the resources on double the infestors. And Terran bitch about the Raven's Turrets. They are 2x2, allowing for blocking paths. Are instant. Last for 6 times more. Have better range, armor... And don't tell me Infested Terrans can move, because they barely leave their places in the 30s lifespan they have.
Army comps will change, you can bet on that. Strictly speaking TvZ, this change to fungal growth will almost certainly relieve the gas-sink that is banelings. The burst DPS necessitates more Infestors, but it also lowers the requirements on baneling count as Infestors move to a more damage-dealer role.
And why are people acting like the root is gone? It's not. Is it significantly shorter? Yes. Will it still make a huge difference? You bet your ass.
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It just struck me.
Fungaled Medvacs can still drop it's troops, right?
This change will make it possible for a Terran to load marines into a medvac when he sees a infestor or the fungal launching and then drop then again, fungal-free. And kill the infestor.
It may actually make it a LOT worse to deal with medvacs. Even worse than I'd though.
And again, I need to reiterate how critical this is for Infested Terrans. They may as well remove IT's and Neural and make Infestors a one-spell pony.
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Also a bit off-topic, but Decaf, love your sig, man. You're my hero 
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On March 01 2011 06:37 Jotoco wrote:
It just struck me.
Fungaled Medvacs can still drop it's troops, right?
This change will make it possible for a Terran to load marines into a medvac when he sees a infestor or the fungal launching and then drop then again, fungal-free. And kill the infestor.
It may actually make it a LOT worse to deal with medvacs. Even worse than I'd though.
And again, I need to reiterate how critical this is for Infested Terrans. They may as well remove IT's and Neural and make Infestors a one-spell pony.
There are two sides to every theory crafting coin, Jotoco. Sure, that situation could happen, if you're bad... or you could park you infestor slightly out of range and type "grrrr" into the chat. I know for a fact fungaled marines CAN'T be picked up by the medivac, so the onus is on him just as much as you to not fuck up. And ANY sort of delay, when it comes to drop harass, incredibly favors the defender.
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After playing a few games against terran (only took 3 games to get to grand master 13th lol) and protoss and utilizing the infestor I have to honestly say that I am in love with the changes...yes it will be more difficult to control against air units...but lets be honest...in general zerg's problem has always been on the ground.
With the new changes you can cost effectively utilize the infestro to destroy mid-game 6 warpgate pressure. I was able to catch the protoss ball with one of my 3 infestors...and with three consecutive fungle growths killed his entire army and picked off the reinforcements with my lings. The fact that zerg now has a spell that actually causes significant damage is huge! All it takes is for zerg to be able to cost effective destroy 1 major push by an opponent to get a huge econ advantage.
From a simple game play perspective I like the change because it introduces more micro on both sides. It's an advantage to zerg because with good micro we can do more with it, than we could be fore. However, a good player can also dodge which makes it more interesting to watch.
In terms of ZVZ it also adds variety because it will be even more valuable in roach wars...but won't totally shut down air like it used to...sooooooo....muta will become viable again...and who wouldn't appreciate a little variety in a mirror match? I might have to start practicing the Catz build again!
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let's stretch our minds for a moment here, given x of time, and given infinite infestors, these new infestors deal twice the amount of damage the old ones did.
Yeah, thats awesome.
Unfortunately, in situations where you dont actually have infinite infestors, being able to deal twice the damage with twice the amount isnt really as huge a buff as people make it out to be.
Dod you for example know, that you could invest twice the amount in banelings, and get twice the amount of damage from them too? Isnt that incredibly awesome in a situation with infinite banelings?
Truly it is.
But in actual games, where you dont have infinite money, being able to do twice the damage for twice the cost isnt really all that amazing.
It was pretty frustrating when medivacs out-dps'ed the current incarnation of fungal growth, wasn't it? Do you really need EIGHT seconds for speedlings to come and hit some fungaled marines?
Not really, since the main purpose of the current fungal incarnation is to hold them in place so your banelings can connect.
And yes, you need an actual 8 seconds, to for example run up your ramp with hydras to get into your main and dps some harassing air units, or to kill a medivac with infested terrans, and so on.
From a simple game play perspective I like the change because it introduces more micro on both sides. It's an advantage to zerg because with good micro we can do more with it, than we could be fore. However, a good player can also dodge which makes it more interesting to watch.
It does introduce more micro on both sides, and it should be more interesting to watch, sure.
But you cant do more with it with good micro than you could before.
Instead, with good micro, you might be able to do the same with it as you do now.
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On March 01 2011 06:56 morimacil wrote:
It does introduce more micro on both sides, and it should be more interesting to watch, sure.
But you cant do more with it with good micro than you could before.
Instead, with good micro, you might be able to do the same with it as you do now.
Almost the definition of a nerf.
If you have to struggle to do the same you did before, and can be negated in the process, then it is a nerf, not a buff.
I think Blizzard should REMOVE neural parasite. And give infestors 2 spells:
1 - FUNGAL GROWTH: Deals damage as is and DOESN'T stop units(75energy);
2 - ENSNARE: DOES NOT deal damage and stop units for 10s(50 energy).
Guess which one I would be using more?
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On March 01 2011 06:56 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +let's stretch our minds for a moment here, given x of time, and given infinite infestors, these new infestors deal twice the amount of damage the old ones did. Yeah, thats awesome. Unfortunately, in situations where you dont actually have infinite infestors, being able to deal twice the damage with twice the amount isnt really as huge a buff as people make it out to be. Dod you for example know, that you could invest twice the amount in banelings, and get twice the amount of damage from them too? Isnt that incredibly awesome in a situation with infinite banelings? Truly it is. But in actual games, where you dont have infinite money, being able to do twice the damage for twice the cost isnt really all that amazing. Show nested quote +
It was pretty frustrating when medivacs out-dps'ed the current incarnation of fungal growth, wasn't it? Do you really need EIGHT seconds for speedlings to come and hit some fungaled marines?
Not really, since the main purpose of the current fungal incarnation is to hold them in place so your banelings can connect. And yes, you need an actual 8 seconds, to for example run up your ramp with hydras to get into your main and dps some harassing air units, or to kill a medivac with infested terrans, and so on. Show nested quote +From a simple game play perspective I like the change because it introduces more micro on both sides. It's an advantage to zerg because with good micro we can do more with it, than we could be fore. However, a good player can also dodge which makes it more interesting to watch. It does introduce more micro on both sides, and it should be more interesting to watch, sure. But you cant do more with it with good micro than you could before. Instead, with good micro, you might be able to do the same with it as you do now.
You're pretty good at being smarmy, but not so good at understanding the point I was trying to make. Why even bother having a discussion on TL? Seems like everybody around here knows everything already...
As I said in another post, this will relieve the baneling count in TvZ, allowing you to get those extra infestors. And while banelings are one of my favorite units, the fact that they have to die in order to kill something else can lead to many situations where either you A: fuck up and lose a bunch of banes for nothing, or 2: lose a war of economic attrition to 50m/0g marines. A meatier infestor that deals more dps to marines--purely at the cost of energy--is a welcome improvement in the meta-game of this matchup that was, frankly, sorely needed. Imagine sniping a ball of 25 marines with 3 infestors--Whereas in prior patches, you would have to use: more fungals, and a shit-ton of banes to take them out. Those are resources and troops SAVED right there. Huge improvement IMO.
The way fungal works now, if I understand correctly, is that it doesn't even matter if medivacs are there to heal the marines. The new fungal DPS is simply TOO HIGH for them to be saved. I, for one, look forward to having a hit-squad of four infestors kill 25 marines and 4 medivacs for essentially nothing. Afterwards I will send them home and let them recharge. They'll even be cheered home by all the banelings and speedlings I didn't even need to use!
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On March 01 2011 07:48 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 06:56 morimacil wrote:
It does introduce more micro on both sides, and it should be more interesting to watch, sure.
But you cant do more with it with good micro than you could before.
Instead, with good micro, you might be able to do the same with it as you do now. Almost the definition of a nerf. If you have to struggle to do the same you did before, and can be negated in the process, then it is a nerf, not a buff. I think Blizzard should REMOVE neural parasite. And give infestors 2 spells: 1 - FUNGAL GROWTH: Deals damage as is and DOESN'T stop units(75energy); 2 - ENSNARE: DOES NOT deal damage and stop units for 10s(50 energy). Guess which one I would be using more?
i'd say F fungal and use only ensnare every match.
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On February 26 2011 15:17 MrBitter wrote:
I still hesitate to call this a buff...
The ability to out DPS medivacs is really the biggest plus here.
Obviously its an ok change for ZvT, but ZvT wasn't the broken matchup to begin with. We still can't engage a Toss ball, and its still impossible to take a game off a competent Toss that makes it past 15 minutes.
I'll agree here.
infestors may see slightly more use in ZvT, but the purpose of FG in ZvP was to lock down blink stalkers out of range of your broodlords, not to do damage.
For people saying that FG will be used to soften up deathballs before the fight starts, it is only a slight increase in damage, and only to armoured.
I do not forsee any significant changes to ZvP from this patch, except in the meta sense that people will be trying to fit infestors into their play again, so we'll see various vods or replays from people claiming they are OP or UP in the next few weeks...
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On March 01 2011 08:02 MrPrezbo wrote:
You're pretty good at being smarmy, but not so good at understanding the point I was trying to make.
It's really funny to see this at the start of a post that orders points A and 2.
On March 01 2011 08:02 MrPrezbo wrote:
Imagine sniping a ball of 25 marines with 3 infestors--Whereas in prior patches, you would have to use: more fungals, and a shit-ton of banes to take them out. Those are resources and troops SAVED right there. Huge improvement IMO.
No, because fungal's total damage dealt hasn't changed (this post only worries about unarmored units like said marines). If you get just TWO fungals onto a group of marines, they will die, before or after the patch's change. By the way, this is easier now than it will be in 1.3. Banelings are used because they're a fast cleanup, a killing blow, not because fungal doesn't do any damage right now.
Damage and DPS are different. DPS was increase, not damage dealt. With this spell, which immobilizes, it's hard to argue that DPS is important at all in an open battle, because you can just cast and step out of range. Making the instant effect into a slow projectile increases the likelihood that you miss or are dodged, and decreases the chances that you'll be able to pure harass (cast and run).
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Excuse me guys. The lock down is still an effect. You should be surround with lings and banes in the new FG's duration anyways during 1.2. If you arent, then you need to practice your micro a little more. Its quite sad that ppl are whining over the duration. i actually like the buff to the damage because it doesnt change my gameplay. I surround quickly 
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I think it is certainly a buff against terran, because that's some sweet DPS do be doing to rines, especially since medivacs can't outheal them. Unfortunately, it is worse against stalkers. It's a nice plus against zerg though, since the extra DPS against roaches yet again helps.
Still, I can't help but feel fungal is in this limbo between BW's Ensnare and Plague...and nowhere near as close as plague. Or darkswarm for that matter. Plague had wat, 25 DPS over 12 seconds? That's freaking enormous looking back at it.
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I think the issue is more that you fungal helps delay pushes. The 8 seconds can buy you enough time to have another production cycle finish. The damage fungal dealt has always been considered a bonus, its real value was in the ability to stall out encroaching forces. Also, this new missile attack can be dodge all day by blink stalkers. The blob moves so slow.
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EPT
