On February 28 2011 19:53 [F_]aths wrote: While this is true, it is not the whole story. You can cast an FG and then when the opponent moves his army to avoid the missile, already have casted another FG so that one them hits some units. With the good DPS, FG is quite nice. You should be able to get rid of lings and banelings quite fast, also marines should be softened up for the banelings. I would also like to watch what the pros are doing with this spell.
See my point 2 : my infestors don't have infinite energy. Missing a fungal will hurt more than ever and you will miss more of them than ever. If they make fungal 50 energy then I can agree with the change maybe.
I really don't like any of the things they're changing anyway, even the terran nerfs seems unjustified and inadequate...
If we consider infestors be buffed in 1.3 (22% more HP, 30% more damage to armoured versus 50% less stun duration but doubled DPS, however missile instead of instant cast) we zerg will build more infestors. More infestors = larger energy pool for infestor spells.
Why so much general whine in this thread? The new FG spell is more BW-like: Hard to execute properly, but devestating if used properly.
i don't have an issue with projectile, i have an issue with the focus on even more heavy damage units in SC2 as opposed to control units like in BW.
i really liked the start of this thread, but it started getting out of hand in the opposite direction of the PTR thread. now all of a sudden, it went from a terrible nerf to an overpowered buff. seriously, stop sensationalizing shit you guys.
if infestors are gonna be so dominant, both non-zerg races have amazing counter-caster units. ghosts in particular are good against zerg, and while i wouldn't recommend them if you didn't need EMP over just getting more tanks and the like, if infestors are so scary, you have an obvious, easy to tech to solution.
it was demonstrated in GSL this season, zenexbyun vs ogs zenio, that the terran was able to overcome a zerg going ling/infestor/ultra because of EMP from like 4-6 ghosts, and then it becomes the tvz terrans know and love where marines kill everything. it was actually one of the most epic games of the season so far imo
i see the potential in it being used as a damage snare, but i think the projectile nerf is too big. it's not as slow as a marauder shot, it's slower. somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 of a second i'd estimate, in other words, the average focused person reacts twice as fast or more than it takes fungal to land.
so in other words, fungal is supposed to counter blink, but now blink can counter fungal. fungal was supposed to hold a marine/tank push, but now you can stim kite it. i think a a lot of the benefit goes out of the window when you consider how much easier it is to whiff a fungal. i think fungal projectile time is too long, i'd like to see it travel as fast as EMP, or somewhere in between how slow it is now and EMP speed.
I'm saying if I lump 8-9 sentries into a gateway, collossus, sentry deathball, you could use repeat FGs during the course of an engagement to take them all out plus soften up units around them. This makes infestors a lot better vs any kinds of deathball.There is no way a protoss can spare 800-900 gas in the midgame so this make infestors genuinely scary wheras right now, they suck vs protoss deathballs. However, like I said in my post, it will be hard for zerg to pull off against a good protoss player given collossus or HTs so it deserves to be so powerful.
?? I dont understand these kind of posts. if you wish to repeatedly fungal a bunch of sentries, you can already do it now. they dont get any more scary compared to now. And killing off sentries during an engagement, so after all the forcefields land, is relatively useless.
What makes this scary now is that you can deal out damage over the course of a battle due to the higher DPS. Previously you had to wait so long for it to take it effect that it wasn't worth using during an engagement. Outside an engagement, collossus outrange infestors so very hard to get the spell off. However, you do see consecutive FGs from highground from pro games. It doesn't seem ridiculous to FG at the start of an engagement and at the end of the engagement. It takes 3 FGs to kill sentry but if a sentry has taken more than 8 points of damage then it is actually 2. Even if you get just 1 FG off on sentries this will burn all the shields and Protoss will be scared to engage a roach infestor army for fear of losing all his sentries to more FGs.
As for your point on sentry being useless after using up energy. The point is that if you watch a good protoss player they will economise FF really well and will definitley not use up all their energy over 1-2 engagement. Even if you get to the point where you cannot FF anymore, your sentries will probably be on 20-40 energy so you won't need to wait long before you have FF again. Killing a significant number of sentries at any point in the game is a huge deal. The tipping point of a lot of PvZ is the protoss player losing too many sentries.
It is definitely a new anti-sentry strat which seems more cost efficient than overlords filled with banelings or burning out the energy with masses of roaches which are the strats I see at the moment.
I'm saying if I lump 8-9 sentries into a gateway, collossus, sentry deathball, you could use repeat FGs during the course of an engagement to take them all out plus soften up units around them. This makes infestors a lot better vs any kinds of deathball.There is no way a protoss can spare 800-900 gas in the midgame so this make infestors genuinely scary wheras right now, they suck vs protoss deathballs. However, like I said in my post, it will be hard for zerg to pull off against a good protoss player given collossus or HTs so it deserves to be so powerful.
?? I dont understand these kind of posts. if you wish to repeatedly fungal a bunch of sentries, you can already do it now. they dont get any more scary compared to now. And killing off sentries during an engagement, so after all the forcefields land, is relatively useless.
What makes this scary now is that you can deal out damage over the course of a battle due to the higher DPS. Previously you had to wait so long for it to take it effect that it wasn't worth using during an engagement. Outside an engagement, collossus outrange infestors so very hard to get the spell off. However, you do see consecutive FGs from highground from pro games. It doesn't seem ridiculous to FG at the start of an engagement and at the end of the engagement. It takes 3 FGs to kill sentry but if a sentry has taken more than 8 points of damage then it is actually 2. Even if you get just 1 FG off on sentries this will burn all the shields and Protoss will be scared to engage a roach infestor army for fear of losing all his sentries to more FGs.
As for your point on sentry being useless after using up energy. The point is that if you watch a good protoss player they will economise FF really well and will definitley not use up all their energy over 1-2 engagement. Even if you get to the point where you cannot FF anymore, your sentries will probably be on 20-40 energy so you won't need to wait long before you have FF again. Killing a significant number of sentries at any point in the game is a huge deal. The tipping point of a lot of PvZ is the protoss player losing too many sentries.
It is definitely a new anti-sentry strat which seems more cost efficient than overlords filled with banelings or burning out the energy with masses of roaches which are the strats I see at the moment.
investing 100/150 on 1-2 50% chance of dealing 36 damage fungals
or investing 100/50 on 2 banelings with a 80% chance of dealing enough damage to kill a sentry
more cost efficient?
overlords are free, and drops are super useful as they allow baneling bombs on mineral lines, while inftesors have to burrow by cannon and stuff
I'm saying if I lump 8-9 sentries into a gateway, collossus, sentry deathball, you could use repeat FGs during the course of an engagement to take them all out plus soften up units around them. This makes infestors a lot better vs any kinds of deathball.There is no way a protoss can spare 800-900 gas in the midgame so this make infestors genuinely scary wheras right now, they suck vs protoss deathballs. However, like I said in my post, it will be hard for zerg to pull off against a good protoss player given collossus or HTs so it deserves to be so powerful.
?? I dont understand these kind of posts. if you wish to repeatedly fungal a bunch of sentries, you can already do it now. they dont get any more scary compared to now. And killing off sentries during an engagement, so after all the forcefields land, is relatively useless.
What makes this scary now is that you can deal out damage over the course of a battle due to the higher DPS. Previously you had to wait so long for it to take it effect that it wasn't worth using during an engagement. Outside an engagement, collossus outrange infestors so very hard to get the spell off. However, you do see consecutive FGs from highground from pro games. It doesn't seem ridiculous to FG at the start of an engagement and at the end of the engagement. It takes 3 FGs to kill sentry but if a sentry has taken more than 8 points of damage then it is actually 2. Even if you get just 1 FG off on sentries this will burn all the shields and Protoss will be scared to engage a roach infestor army for fear of losing all his sentries to more FGs.
As for your point on sentry being useless after using up energy. The point is that if you watch a good protoss player they will economise FF really well and will definitley not use up all their energy over 1-2 engagement. Even if you get to the point where you cannot FF anymore, your sentries will probably be on 20-40 energy so you won't need to wait long before you have FF again. Killing a significant number of sentries at any point in the game is a huge deal. The tipping point of a lot of PvZ is the protoss player losing too many sentries.
It is definitely a new anti-sentry strat which seems more cost efficient than overlords filled with banelings or burning out the energy with masses of roaches which are the strats I see at the moment.
investing 100/150 on 1-2 50% chance of dealing 36 damage fungals
or investing 100/50 on 2 banelings with a 80% chance of dealing enough damage to kill a sentry
more cost efficient?
overlords are free, and drops are super useful as they allow baneling bombs on mineral lines, while inftesors have to burrow by cannon and stuff
The thing is those percentages depend on what level of play you are talking about.
You have to be pretty retarded to miss a protoss ball completely but yes there is a question about whether or not you hit the sentries which are mosty likely the only thing worth hitting in protoss ball. Also depends on if they keep it as slow as it is now. I'm not sure it is as low as 50% especially for a pro player during an engagement.
In terms of damage, 36 AoE damage is hardly small. Storm does 80 damage but noone stands under it the whole time so a well cast storm's damage is not that different from a FG that lands (I know there are plenty of other differences but just trying to say that FG does deal significant damage).
Baneling drops are very good definitely against mineral lines but I'm talking about vs a stalker sentry collossus army. With good micro, the protoss player will shoot down your overlords with stalkers making the baneling drop a very risky and costly strategy. No way will 80% of banelings hit my sentries. Even if you do get to drop the banelings, I can position my stalkers to take the hit. You are kind of relying on the protoss player to micro badly with this strat. Just look at HuK and OgsMC in GSL. They both had zergs try this strat on them and fail miserably.
The infestors should add a cooldown to Fungal growth now IMO, while one FG is going on, another one can be applied immediately, which means if 3 if not only 1 infestor has enough energy, it can wipe out an entire force (both air and ground)
From watching the different videos, IMO I think the FG could stand to have its projectile speed quickened, for example to match the Stalker projectile speed.
Maybe a range upgrade too - 10 range? But I don't know if this fits into the zerg "philosophy" of play if it encourages zerg to use hit-and-run style of attacking.
On March 01 2011 04:28 Zeroes wrote: They should increase the range to rival tanks and colossus and make the projectile fly slower
whoa whoa I'm not sure if it should match a tank's sieged up range(13) because that would be insane, zerg siege anyone? for it to match collosi range...not sure about that one, 10 range and faster delivery seems like a good compromise.
The damage output done by infestors is now a real threat for a protoss death ball, especially if the infestor manages to do the damage outside of a major fight (to soften up the ball for example).
I think, though, that the major buff in ZvP because of this is going to be something different.
If infestor centric plays become a standard for Zerg in ZvP, I believe that the standard Collosus/Stalker/Senty/Zealot death ball will not be able to compete with a new infestor/roach/hydra/bling and optionally /corruptor army.
This means that Protosses will likely adapt by adding many templars to their unit mix, both for feedback on the infestors as well as storms which are very powerful against almost all units of Zerg.
I think that this, in combination with the remove of the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade, is going to have a couple of not immediately visible effects on the game of Protoss vs. Zerg:
Protoss players might be favouring early templar tech over collosus tech, because of the research time and mana accumulation required before a high templar is usable to it's full extend, and possibly to be safe against hypothetical new timing pushes or harass by Zerg using infestors. The minerals, and more importantly, gas required for this will keep the collossus numbers down until the late game, at which point Zerg players should already have enough income going to afford a spire in addition to your infestor pit, enabling the easier timed countering of collossi using infestors.
It could also make fights before the midgame viable for Zerg, instead of having the Zerg trying to delay everything until the Zerg has 5 gas and 3 mineral expansions and 2/2 + 2/0 upgrades running and just overwhelms the opponent.
I for one am very happy about this change. This is all theorycrafting and I have no tests to back my thoughts up, but I just have this feeling that these changes to the infestor is going to give rise to many new exciting ways of playing the game.
Notwithstanding balance related issues, to me the change spoils the 'flavour' of Fungal Growth.
With the shorter root timer and higher dps, it's now very similar to storm. Ok, it has a projectile but for all intents and purposes, it will now be used primarily for the damage as opposed to the root.
It would be nice to see a buff to infestors without losing their 'flavour'.
Just a thought as I haven't managed to see anyone post about it. Corruption increases dps to a target infected with it. Add in a fungal or two to a colossus you've corrupted and with +damage to armored it might make killing those colossus much quicker which is obviously a good thing. I'm not sure if the two would stack but even if they don't the added dps is something to consider.
On March 01 2011 05:42 theSAiNT wrote: Notwithstanding balance related issues, to me the change spoils the 'flavour' of Fungal Growth.
With the shorter root timer and higher dps, it's now very similar to storm. Ok, it has a projectile but for all intents and purposes, it will now be used primarily for the damage as opposed to the root.
It would be nice to see a buff to infestors without losing their 'flavour'.
The flavor has changed definitely. But I don't think the new flavor is all that bad. Remember the plasma bugs from Starship Troopers. Those things were awesome
Use mindgames against your opponent, rush your infestors up to make it look like you're going to fungal, etc. If you're good, you will still land it.
The skill ceiling for this spell has been raised significantly. Pushes will be less delayed, but with more damage dealt. Perhaps I can forego banelings completely in the midgame? In favor of mass fungal deathballs? I'm looking forward to seeing how this works.
And please, PLEASE mass muta against me post-patch. I'll enjoy decimating your mutas in half the time it took before... Don't think I can land it? Watch me. muahahahahaha.
Also those videos are bullshit. They're testing infestors in a vacuum vs. a small number of units. How much sense does that make? None.
Keep in mind that you will have an army with those infestors. if you're good, you will either zone their forces into your army to be immediately fungaled and consumed, or you will zone them into your infestors to be fungaled... and consumed.
On March 01 2011 06:05 MrPrezbo wrote: I don't really see what the problem is.
Use mindgames against your opponent, rush your infestors up to make it look like you're going to fungal, etc. If you're good, you will still land it.
You could do this pre-patch except it wasn't a matter of are they paying attention to dodge it.
The skill ceiling for this spell has been raised significantly. Pushes will be less delayed, but with more damage dealt.
The exact same damage is dealt, it's just dealt quicker.
And please, PLEASE mass muta against me post-patch. I'll enjoy decimating your mutas in half the time it took before... Don't think I can land it? Watch me. muahahahahaha.
It's worse agianst mutas now as it holds them for your hydras to hit for half the time, so unless you countered mutas with only fungal growth this won't half the time it takes to kill the mutas it will just cost double the energy to hold them there.
On March 01 2011 06:09 MrPrezbo wrote: Keep in mind that you will have an army with those infestors. if you're good, you will either zone their forces into your army to be immediately fungaled and consumed, or you will zone them into your infestors to be fungaled... and consumed.
The whole point of infestors is so that you can lock their army down so that your army can reach it without being kited not to deal AoE damage, sacrificing your army to drive them into fungals doesn't help as you won't have the units to mop up.
And please, PLEASE mass muta against me post-patch. I'll enjoy decimating your mutas in half the time it took before... Don't think I can land it? Watch me. muahahahahaha.
It's worse agianst mutas now as it holds them for your hydras to hit for half the time, so unless you countered mutas with only fungal growth this won't half the time it takes to kill the mutas it will just cost double the energy to hold them there.
you're semi-right about the damage being the same, except it does now deal more damage to armored. Even the 30% increase is significant.
I may need to build an extra infestor or 2 vs mutas, but since I actually deal damage faster with fungal, the mutas will die faster. If you're good, you will need about 8 seconds for reinforcements to arrive (queens, hydras) to take down the mutas. And although I will have spent 2 fungals instead of one, I will have done 72 damage in 8 seconds to those oh-so-fragile mutalisks. Then mine ears shall revel in that squish-popping sound of dying mutalisks--like a symphony....
EPT
