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Good job.
Yep this looks like standard pvt, just like 2gate robo expo was in bw. I wrote a standard pvt for bw(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=94968). It has the middle road of the 3 aspects of units, tech, expand. The other main roads would be, 1gate expo gets around as many units and much quicker expo but later tech. 3gate expo gets more units, with around same expo timing, but no tech.
Rough look of timings:
-quick expo is just after 6:00 with 5units+ob making
-1immortal/ob/7units expo ~7min.
Have you tried going 1gate robo, and just making the immortal every time? Or even skip it for even earlier expo. Looks like the same amount of units you get. If not, try something like this:
9pylon, 13gate, 15gas, 18core, 19zealot, 22gas, 23wg+stalker, 25pylon, 27sent, 30robo, 31pylon, 32sent, immortal, warpunit, ob, expo
Your 3rd gateway looks a early also. Ideally produce constantly out of 2, then add 3rd when income is there to support it. Looks like pump probe+tech collosus+3gate is too much early.
Gas surplus midgame, timing push at 4collousus could go on 3gas/4gate/~40probes.
yea it would be nice to have more timing stuff like above mention 3rax.
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@Knickknack
The build order you suggested is something oGsMC has done in a couple of PvTs this season (against Byun Game 2 and Hyperdub I believe). So it's definitely a safe and viable opening in the highest level of play.
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On March 07 2011 11:54 4kmonk wrote:
Most of the time, even if you go 3 gate robo, you still won't be able to hold your expansion against a 3 rax if they attack you at the correct timing.
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Ok this REALLy bothers me Monk, I mean I thought that was the most solid safe opening in preparation for an expo possible, if this would MOST of the time die to a 3 rax timing, then what kinda of expo opening can you possibly do to not die?
I mean, KCDC's 1 gate expo was even able to hold in most occassions. Sorry if this is a noobish question.
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United States8476 Posts
Contrary to popular belief, 1 gate fe will hold later rushes like 3 rax much eaiser than a robo build. This is similar to how 15 hatch will hold 4 gates easier than 14 pool 14 gas. You get your expo earlier with the 1 gate fe so that econ will have kicked in by the time a 3 rax push can attack you.
The strength of the 2 gate robo build is not the ability to get a safe expo up; it is the observer. The observer lets you scout and react efficiently to whatever the terran is doing. In fact, if I had maphacks, I would almost always 1 gate fe. One of the biggest weaknesses of the 1 gate expo is the lack of scouting you have mid game. Because of this lack of scouting, even though you have more econ, you might not know exactly what the terran is doing in his base. Thus you have to make guesses, use game sense, prepare for a board range of possibilities, and react inefficiently to most of them.
Here's another way to think about it. You're going for tech and econ with your robo + expo build. The terran is going for pure army with his 3 rax build. If you're able to hold off the 3 rax with a robo + expo build, then there's probably something wrong.
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Fuk MOnk thats just mind blowing, I never read through the entire KCDC thread so my bad. But I have always thought that the earliest 3 rax attacks happen at around the 1st round of warp ins with 4 gates if going for a 1 gate expo.
Cuz I mean, if your expo is going to be in danger following a 3 gate robo, you might aswell go 1 gate robo each time for the ob, then expo there. Wouldn't that be more likely to hold of 3 rax too because of an earlier expansion?
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United States8476 Posts
No, that still can't hold off 3 rax. First of all, by the time the 3 rax hits, your 2nd nexus won't have begun mining, so it won't have begun paying for itself. Also, a robo costs more than a gateway, and isn't as effective as warpgates at holding off these attacks, because it can't warp instantly. Also, you get 2 gas and an obs with a robo build, 2 things you don't waste money on with a 1 gate fe.
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Wait, so are you saying that anything that involves a robo is not going to hold a 3 rax? What about a 3 gate expo? I just did some tests with a friend of mine and you were totally right about it.
I wonder why pros don't opt for a 1 gate expo...
edit: sorry one more question, when you said 3 gate expo is not good for going against tech builds, do you mean because of no obs, I can't see what he is doing? If yes, I also wanna ask if you can do a 3 gate - hallucinate then expo, and was wondering if that would be worth it.
I heard from some people that its also worth it to push right UP the ramp to see what they got and if things don;t turn out you can always back off and sac the zealot or two.
What would you guys recommend?
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The opening build is perfectly safe. If terran goes for any hardcore 1 base play you can easily cancel the nexus and defend it. You start the nexus so quickly because you don't want to be behind against a fast expanding build and there's no sure way to scout what he's doing before that observer.
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Being forced to cancel an expo is so discouraging though. 
Fuk I wished we have better ways of scouting apart from spending 200 bucks in a robo. I judt did some tests and realised that even if you open 3 gate expo, the hallucination doesn't come out early enough to spot tech anyway. Makes me sad.
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You will rarely have to cancel the expo... the vast majority of builds you can't expo against will have units trying to walk up your ramp before you even try to build a nexus in the first place. I updated the OP with how to play against the most common rush.
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The idea behind the fast obs build is that you know how much and what type of pressure is coming with enough time to respond. 3-rax is a semi-all-in that, if defended, leaves the Terran player with no tech and limited economy. If your obs sees a 3-rax, you hold your ramp with forcefields while teching colossi. Then you win with equal economy and better tech.
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Lurker coming out of the shadows to say that this (and your PvZ thread) are among the most useful threads I've seen on TL so far. Thanks for all your hard work!
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This is a great guide and really appreciate the effort put into writing the standard builds. I plan to work on this style of build in my PvT.
I do have a question though. I'm hesitant to adopt this build because I've had a lot of success opening 3 gate expand with a really fast +1 armor. So far I haven't had any trouble with early bio pressure or bio + tank pressure. My main concern is not have an obs for cloak banshees but usually you can scout the tech play as described and get a cannon in the mineral line if need be.
Basically, am I just not seeing certain timing attacks at my level or they are just coming too late? I usually follow up my expansion with a robo and a little later a twilight council all the while my forge has been churning out upgrades. I've found my gateway units just won't die.
Thanks for any and all input/criticism.
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On March 10 2011 06:48 mordek wrote:
This is a great guide and really appreciate the effort put into writing the standard builds. I plan to work on this style of build in my PvT.
I do have a question though. I'm hesitant to adopt this build because I've had a lot of success opening 3 gate expand with a really fast +1 armor. So far I haven't had any trouble with early bio pressure or bio + tank pressure. My main concern is not have an obs for cloak banshees but usually you can scout the tech play as described and get a cannon in the mineral line if need be.
Basically, am I just not seeing certain timing attacks at my level or they are just coming too late? I usually follow up my expansion with a robo and a little later a twilight council all the while my forge has been churning out upgrades. I've found my gateway units just won't die.
Thanks for any and all input/criticism.
yeah I've been feeling the same way actually. Especially when I found out that Alejandro's 3gate expo build could just press up and take out a teching terran relatively easily with some good forcefields.
And yeah i feel the same way about +1 armour. Couple with gaurdian shield, your units are just so damn beef.
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Hey guys.. I've been having a lot of trouble against terran lately. They're doing this 5 rax 1 base play with MM and I cant do anything against it. Please note I'm only a bronze league player but I've been doing very well lately until losing 3 matches in 1 night to this 5 rax garbage.
I scout with my probe and see pretty standard stuff, 1 rax, another 2 on the way usually. The marine they get out forces my probe away or kills it so I can never know if they're going 5 rax MM or marine marauder medivac bio play. Usually when I see 3 rax I go 3 gate robo tech for collosus but if they get 5 rax I have no chance whatsoever. I usually chrono boost an observer out ASAP, but by the time I get it out 5 rax is already up and I'm done. Here's a replay.. can anyone give me some advice?
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/148565-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-caverns
p.s. I know i'm not good, I'm a new player trying my best to learn. Sorry.
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On March 10 2011 13:22 Perplex wrote:Hey guys.. I've been having a lot of trouble against terran lately. They're doing this 5 rax 1 base play with MM and I cant do anything against it. Please note I'm only a bronze league player but I've been doing very well lately until losing 3 matches in 1 night to this 5 rax garbage. I scout with my probe and see pretty standard stuff, 1 rax, another 2 on the way usually. The marine they get out forces my probe away or kills it so I can never know if they're going 5 rax MM or marine marauder medivac bio play. Usually when I see 3 rax I go 3 gate robo tech for collosus but if they get 5 rax I have no chance whatsoever. I usually chrono boost an observer out ASAP, but by the time I get it out 5 rax is already up and I'm done. Here's a replay.. can anyone give me some advice? http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/148565-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-cavernsp.s. I know i'm not good, I'm a new player trying my best to learn. Sorry.
The best way to deal with that is quite simply forcefield use. Any type of 3-5 rax bio aggression is easily shut down by a single forcefield on your ramp (unless you're playing on a map like scrap station, which requires 2 forcefields to completely block your ramp).
If they wait for medivac tech before pushing, then your chronoboosted observer should have enough time to spot the starport with ample time so that is a non-issue (If that is the case, you have time to get colossi out to kill the eventual push).
The logic behind forcefield is simple: it only takes 1 forcefield to nullify an entire 3-5 rax bio push for 15 seconds. With 4 sentries (which you should get with this build before that kind of bio timing), you can indefinitely forcefield out his army. If he keeps trying to push up, you just reinforce your army since you're in your base. He cannot reinforce as fast because he'd have to rally across the map. So eventually you'll be able to gather a large enough force to roll his force over. If he's dumb enough, he'll let you forcefield pieces of his army on your ramp and give you free kills.
The key here is to keep a vigilant watch over your ramp and be ready to drop a forcefield the second you see your opponent try to walk up your ramp. Hope that helps.
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I find If I just pull 3 probes, I can stop the 1 marine 2 marauder + 2 scv push, Nexus takes some damage and the probes usually die, but I find having the nexus go up significantly earlier worth saccing a few probes
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On March 10 2011 08:04 milfhunter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 06:48 mordek wrote:
This is a great guide and really appreciate the effort put into writing the standard builds. I plan to work on this style of build in my PvT.
I do have a question though. I'm hesitant to adopt this build because I've had a lot of success opening 3 gate expand with a really fast +1 armor. So far I haven't had any trouble with early bio pressure or bio + tank pressure. My main concern is not have an obs for cloak banshees but usually you can scout the tech play as described and get a cannon in the mineral line if need be.
Basically, am I just not seeing certain timing attacks at my level or they are just coming too late? I usually follow up my expansion with a robo and a little later a twilight council all the while my forge has been churning out upgrades. I've found my gateway units just won't die.
Thanks for any and all input/criticism. yeah I've been feeling the same way actually. Especially when I found out that Alejandro's 3gate expo build could just press up and take out a teching terran relatively easily with some good forcefields. And yeah i feel the same way about +1 armour. Couple with gaurdian shield, your units are just so damn beef.
Lost my first PvT in about 10 games of that matchup. It's important to not delay the robo very much and get greedy. My observer got to his base, saw a starport and then 30 MM and 4-5 Medivacs drop in my main. There were other problems with my play but I was expecting a bio push at the front and having the observer faster might have won me the game as he was quite all in with the drop.
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Thank you very much for this guide. The advice is right on the head and has got me thinking a lot. :D
Practice the crap out of a solid standard build and I can fiddle with cute stuff once I know the standard play inside out. I'd lost sight of that a little lately... which is probably where my PvT has been going to hell in a handbasket.
The Artosis thread was awesome as well. Not seen that before.
At the risk of repetition, thanks again for taking the time to put this together, dig out the links and make it so readable.
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EPT
